Bill!,
I've seen you put it like this several times before, and I think you are being
a little amiss in how you're saying one small part of this.
I don't think you mean the "concept" doesn't exist "out there".
I think you mean a kind of functioning that results in what looks to us like
cause and effect does not exist out there.
By contrast, of course the concept exists: it exists in us, as a concept.
Otherwise it would not be a concept for us. Concepts exist nowhere else but in
us, so of course we won't find it "out there".
But, what about the "functioning" I refer to above? ...the functioning that
results in our ascribing cause and effect. I would not say it exists out there
as a concept (as I think you would not). I would not say it exists out there
as a Principle. I would not say it exists out there as a Law. I think all we
can say is that there is a functioning, and that functioning is a VERB, not a
noun. It functions. But we do not see "something" functioning, or the
mechanics and gears of the functioning. We see instead manifestations or
consequences. Consequences of WHAT? When we ask that, "WHAT?", and ANSWER it,
this is where we start drawing up phantoms. And we attach to them, if we are
not awake. They become our models. It's OK to use the phantoms for our
purposes, and emploit them in our skilful means. But attachment to them as
something "out there" is the root of suffering. The concept or idea of a self
is one of these "things", I know everyone here agrees.
--Joe
> "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
> I'm not denying that cause-and-effect seems to provide independent
> conditioning in the world of forms (illusions), I'm saying like the world of
> forms the concept of cause-and-effect is just a projection of our rational
> mind. It's not something that exists 'out there' independent of intellect.
>
> This is a good example of the question: "If a tree falls in the forest and
> no one (human) is there, is there a sound?" No, there isn't.
------------------------------------
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