Joe, On rereading your post below it appears your understanding of what forms are may not be the same as mine.
Can you tell me exactly in detail as clearly as possible what you mean by 'forms' and 'the world of forms'? Edgar On Apr 8, 2013, at 4:54 PM, Edgar Owen wrote: > Joe, > > Not quite. If all forms 'vanished' you could not function. You being 'up and > around the floor' is acting in the world of forms. If 'everything had > actually stopped and disappeared' there could be nothing to report because > you wouldn't even remember the episode, yet you do report. You appear to have > been in a state of mind in better contact with the true nature of the world > of forms with perhaps no thoughts about the world of forms, yet your being > was still interacting with them. > > It sounds perhaps close to what I'm describing but it is not the world of > forms vanishing but better realizing their true nature, directly and less > cluttered with the usual flow of thoughts about them.... > > Edgar > > > > On Apr 8, 2013, at 4:38 PM, Joe wrote: > >> Edgar, >> >> Oh, no: Don't make that confusion. Too easy to do, at arm's length. >> >> That's why we need sticks, in our teaching. ;-) >> >> I refer in particular to your final sentence of the original post, 'way down >> the bot'om, here. >> >> I *do* speak of the state that opens when we're up and around off the floor. >> Or even on the floor. Meditation brought us to that point, and by hook or by >> crook -- by luck, or by ripening -- everything stopped and disappeared, >> suddenly. And lastingly (for some time). This has nothing to do with >> meditation. It is awakening. >> >> I am not a strict interpreter of Dogen. Zazen is awakening, yes. And zazen >> is an expression of our realization and true nature, yes. But awakening is >> not necessarily zazen. Awakening is ...well, just experience it. >> >> And maintain it as you may. >> >> That's called practice. And awakening. >> >> And, what does Dogen say?: "And so it goes on, endlessly". >> >> --Joe >> >> > Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: >> > >> > Joe, >> > >> > Not sure what part of my post your comments are referring to. >> > >> > Note I mentioned 2 separate states. Your comments refer only to the >> > first... >> > >> > Edgar >> > >> > On Apr 8, 2013, at 2:44 PM, Joe wrote: >> > >> > > Edgar, >> > > >> > > Not to quibble with your understanding... . But the "I" DOES vanish. We >> > > experience this. How do we experience it?; what is that experience >> > > like?: There is not one thing. There is no "I", either. At that time. >> > > And those times. >> > > >> > > Granted, this state and way of being and acting may not last >> > > permanently. For many, it lasts weeks, or months, if their opening had a >> > > good preparation and foundation: the body supports this, or else >> > > delusion comes back quicker. >> > > >> > > Practice can be continued, and the Buddha Nature can be the only >> > > experience. In fact, it's safer to continue to practice, rather than to >> > > suppose we will be OK to enable a false mind to run the show; a virus or >> > > malware to take over the whole CPU, thinking that it's the hardware >> > > itself! What a mistake. Error. >> > > >> > > Thus, we continue practice. >> > > >> > > I know you do, too. >> > > >> > > --Joe >> > > >> > > > Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: >> > > > >> > > > Joe, >> > > > >> > > > This is indeed correct in Zen MEDITATION where forms vanish into the >> > > > formless. >> > > > >> > > > However at the level of Active Zen in the world of forms it is both >> > > > correct and incorrect depending on our understanding. >> > > > >> > > > In dealing with the world of forms it is clear that the forms do exist >> > > > including the form we label 'I'. >> > > > >> > > > However it is true that the 'I' form is now realized as an illusion, >> > > > but an illusion that manifests Buddha Nature as do all forms, and as a >> > > > form that is interconnected with all forms in the causal web. >> > > > >> > > > This is the meaning of 'The mountains are mountains again'. >> > > > >> > > > This means that the forms we call mountains still exist but instead of >> > > > being the mountains we originally thought they were they are now seen >> > > > as the illusory forms we call mountains. >> > > > >> > > > In other words mountains don't vanish, they are just seen as their >> > > > true natures. >> > > > >> > > > Same with the 'I'. The I doesn't vanish, it is just now realized for >> > > > the illusory form it is... >> > > > >> > > > Edgar >> >> >
