Joe, Sadly you don't even understand my point... :-(
Edgar On Apr 17, 2013, at 10:54 AM, Joe wrote: > Edgar, > > Nope. You've mis-read, there. > > I write that in the awakened state, reason can, if desired on some occasion, > be employed, and then allowed to sink or drop again, like a shop-window cover > being raised and lowered (an example is when the awakened person wants to do > some calculation for a tax return entry). > > When it's raised, thought operates. When it's lowered, it's all over. It > doesn't keep on spinning its wheels, and spinning off fictions and phantoms > and voices between the ears. > > Thus, it's a tool which the awakened person uses just as and when needed. It > does not use the awakened person, and run the gas-tank dry. > > I've often written here that the awakened person can "use everything freely". > Every part of our natural, full, Human inheritance. Thought and reason is one > of these things. > > By use "freely", I mean use them, and not be over-run and trapped by them. > Just as we use tools. > > I do not say, and never did say, that we use reason to become awakened, or > awake. Just as we do not use the strength of our arms to become awakened. > > I can't comment on your idea of awakening, but I know when someone is > mis-casting something I have written and expressed. Hence this gentle > correction. About what I've written. > > You know I still hold in high regard the experience you gained and effort you > exerted in practice in the old country with good teachers. I don't assess its > outcome. I note however that your expression of your discovery and its > natural history does not match my expression. Usually, this would mean we're > talking about different things. > > As you could see in my post with Charles about the possible experience of a > demented person, some of my claims are speculative on my part, so I say such > things as, for example, it may be like a process is stuck in such a person, > like an orphan process, or like the modules that "Dave" had to remove from > the HAL-9000 machine in order to keep that device and process from hijacking > the mission: a HAL on the ground was tied-in remotely to carry on control. > > Well, this is part of an ongoing thread, but it does not much concern my > observations about how awakening takes place through Zen training, and how it > does not involve, at all, the use of the faculty of reason, or arm strength. > > I note instead that you're still trying to say and to tell others, for some > reason(s), that it DOES involve the use of reason. Now, I doubt that's the > way it happened for you, if it did happen. But I think you're adding-on. You > want to modernize this Zen-training we have, and you've indicated that you > think it needs it. > > An effort to "update" may be laudable and the results may be salutary. But > you need a Lab, a laboratory. Not only to test, but to develop, then refine. > Try a Zen practice center. Get a teaching-situation there, and put the new > twist on training to the test. That's the Scientific thing to do! And it may > also be compassionate. Time and training will tell. That's the way it's > always worked. And then there's natural selection: if it's a good viscosity, > it will stick to the wall. > > You know what to do. > > Have at it, and pls. send a report now and then? > > w/ Tnx, > > --Joe > > > Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > > > Joe, > > > > Funny! > > > > Practice involves use of the rational mind to achieve the mindless. > > > > Thus the rational mind is necessary to realize Zen... > > > > Which is what I'VE been saying all along and Joe and Bill denying! > >
