joe... i have lost faith in edgar after his comment about the boston bombings... no compassion..
unless he clarifies himself he's off my christmas card list.. you are on it joe.. because you have been a very patient and kind teacher except when you said my art was shit one time when you were in some sort of a nasty mean mood.. you might as well be honest..if it is shit to you..say so... no skin off my teeth.. think what you want but be honest.. i am trying my best to re understand zen principles.. i am re-reading how to raise an ox... by francis dojun cook... and checking net.. i understand the absolute and relative and things as they are..... however things are as they are are not necessarily in human life at a set standard..they can be changed.. i am talking about society..you cannot accept things as they are because they are... i cannot accept poverty and see humans suffering... this to me is wrong..and WE can do something about it!!!!!!!! life is hard enough as it is without human beings making life harder by their selfishness.... thank you for your patience.. you are a good teacher joe.. i appreciate the time you take and the care you take to keep me centred and on the path...merle Merle, Well, I already wrote a lot about this, in the bulk of the body of the text you quoted the bottom of. I'll paste it all back here beneath, and ask if it's clear on a second reading. If not, ask me just where it goes unclear. Tnx! --Joe PS But let me say that it is "Suchness" that is real, where Suchness is the inter-functioning of Absolute and Relative, neither of which alone in real in Buddhist systems of understanding and appreciation. So if you want to have either just Absolute, or Relative... you're gonna SUF-FER!... . The proverbial "you". > Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: > > please elaborate joe.... merle > > > Suffering is a natural result of wanting it only one way. -------------------------- (original post begins) Bill!, I know it's very late where you are, and we may hear again from you again in a while as the Sun touches your shore in some hours. So, I'll say, in hopes of continuing: Maybe I don't do best, or my best, to call both "real". Perhaps I can do better to call both "natural". When we attach to a self, it's natural to suffer; when we are not attached, it's natural to be free and for Wisdom and Compassion to arise in accord with circumstances. But now to put it in a way that Edgar may also appreciate, for example, and probably others; some of the upshot of this may be what Edgar has been saying, even if we don't happen to identify with or fully understand his methods as he expresses them. We have the "Relative", functioning within the "Absolute". I mean, there is the moment-by-moment functioning of the relative within absolute existence. This is what the Sutras call "Suchness", and it is the mutual inter-functioning which is also called... "things as they are". "Buji-Zen" is squelched and deflated by our noting that it's not enough for things in the relative realm just to drift: they are then unguided by their nature. And the absolute does not just sit as the absolute: it admits of all of us, and functions as us, in us, through us. Dogen ends a poem with two lines that express an understanding of this mutual inter-operability or inter-functioning. He chooses natural entities to do the acting... just as *I* am probably better to call both Absolute and Relative "natural", rather than "real". Maybe I'll correct myself. Here's Dogen: Water is clear to the bottom; fish swim like fish. The sky is vast, penetrating the heavens; birds fly like birds. ------------------------------- There you have it; the Dogen. Suchness -- things as they are. All natural. Clarity and vastness, represent the Absolute; Fish swimming, birds flying, the Relative. That inter-participation is natural. So is each. Are they real? We don't have to "go" there. Suffering is a natural result of wanting it only one way. (Good morning, Bill!, when you receive this. I'll go ahead and have my own breakfast, now. I'm one coffee into it). with Cheers, --Joe
