HI Joe - I agree. I was taught to squint through slightly open eyes but not at 
first. The senses do need to be engaged but should work 'properly' ie not 
allowing the ego to take control of them and run with them. Easier said than 
done. The ego, as it throws up things, always strike me like files with a 'look 
at this' on the front of them.

I take the guys through getting in contact with their senses prior to starting 
meditation encompassing the idea of 'nowhere to go and nothing to do'. I find 
that they can deal with the issues of meditation easier with their eyes closed 
in the early stages. Eventually a few things happen as they get stronger, sleep 
disappears as an issue and they naturally sit more upright. Then open eyes are 
easier.

A start is a start it means nothing, it is where you end up that counts. Entry 
is from anywhere. In Zen's case you end up not being able to open your mouth to 
say anything sensible. Strange really!

Nice talking to you.

Bob




--- In [email protected], "Joe" <desert_woodworker@...> wrote:
>
> Bob,
> 
> Thanks for posting the "notes" to the Group site as a .doc file.  Well done 
> and generous teaching and encouragement.  Gee, I wish I could sit with your 
> group.
> 
> I'll note that, in general, in Zen practice as I've encountered it as taught 
> and as practiced, we do not close the eyes.
> 
> There are two reason for this.
> 
> One is that we do not screen-out ANYTHING in our practice, as I've found it.  
> All six senses are allowed to operate without screening.  The "mind" is 
> usually considered one of the six senses, so we do not suppress or screen out 
> thoughts either: instead, we put all attention on the method of practice.  If 
> thoughts arise, we just do not follow them: that is not "screening", but it 
> is just doing ONE thing at a time: remaining concentrated upon the method of 
> practice in the time when we set ourself to practice.
> 
> The second reason is that Zen practice is about opening to wisdom, through 
> awakening.  Closed eyes can lead to drowsiness and ... to sleep.
> 
> Well, nothing new in these comments.  And they are just that, 
> comments.
> 
> I like your noting the usefulness of the point of contact of the hands.  I 
> find in general that a closed mudra comes more naturally in our way of 
> sitting, and does more good than an open mudra, a dispersing mudra, or no 
> mudra.  Hmm-m, I meant to write about this here last week, but the death of a 
> very close sangha friend intervened and put me off doing much of anything: 
> "Jim", a fellow who practiced his zazen with us always in a wheelchair.  I'll 
> get back to writing sometime.
> 
> Thanks again posting!
> 
> --Joe 
> 
> > "bobthomas564" <bobthomas564@> wrote:
> 
> > I also put statements and questions I prepare to them after the group. I 
> > have attached a couple - (oops! attachments not so easy will try another 
> > time).
>




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