Edgar, You're right about science, but it's not reality. It's human mental models of what reality might be. It's the human insistence on trying to define reality by using rational mental models that makes it so complex.
...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bob, > > One can have a simple life, a simple relationship with reality, but reality > itself, its workings, is enormously complicated.... This is well known by > anyone who has seriously studied the sciences. > > Edgar > > > > On Apr 29, 2013, at 8:33 PM, bobthomas564 wrote: > > > Hi Edgar - I don't want to open up a new battle front, you and Bill are > > having a lot of fun, BUT I always thought that 'Marvellous, chopping wood > > and fetching water' was about the simplicity of reality? and some of the > > enlightenment poems point to the simplicity of it all. It must be simple if > > Hui Neng, with no training, could undo some of the most complex questions > > based on his enlightenment. > > > > Do you disagree? > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > Bob, > > > > > > Reality IS complicated... > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 28, 2013, at 9:07 PM, bobthomas564 wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Edgar - You remind me of a line from a favourite rock n roll song of > > > > mine by a group called Garbage. the line is "I'm only happy when it's > > > > complicated" . > > > > > > > > From "Only happy when it rains" if you like rock n roll here's' the > > > > utube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esEdC0c3YI4 > > > > > > > > Another great line is 'pour your misery down on me' > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bill and Merle, > > > > > > > > > > Here Bill is arguing against something I've never said so he's not > > > > arguing against me, he's arguing against his own demons... > > > > > > > > > > Apparently Bill is continually beset by naughty little Zen demons > > > > whispering he's wrong that he can't quite manage to exorcise! > > > > > > > > > > Bill, when you realize that all demons are actually Buddhas in > > > > disguise you will understand! > > > > > :-) > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 27, 2013, at 7:52 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. I'm afraid we have a fundamental disagreement here. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think zen practice empties out your mind, and you think it fills > > > > it up. > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you want to Rock/Paper/Scissors for it? > > > > > > > > > > > > ..Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As usual you contradict the Zen teachings which I support.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 26, 2013, at 9:38 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see your problem now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You think progress in zen is measured in ADDING ON things - like > > > > knowledge. It's not. You progress in zen by TAKING AWAY things until you > > > > get down to Just THIS! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You don't progress from Level 2 to Level 3. You progress from > > > > Level 2 to Level 1 and then to Level 0 which is actually no-level - > > > > Buddha Nature. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're trying to fill you cup up instead of emptying it...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's Niels, not Neal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Go back to stage one and get it right. Do NOT pass go! > > > > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 26, 2013, at 10:27 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *** Sorry, I misread your post below and Replied > > > > incorrectly. I erased that but if you get the posts by email you might > > > > have received it. If you did please disregard. My corrected post is *** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you mean Stage Three? Neal and I are done with Stage > > > > Two and and now ready for Stage One! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the quote in which Bohr correctly expresses > > > > stage two "mountains are no longer mountains". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stage three is when those unreal illusory things are > > > > realized to be the true reality. Then mountains become mountains again.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both Bill and Bohr haven't reached that stage yet... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 26, 2013, at 5:38 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe Edgar will listen to him... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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