Hmm, I seem to be sending out multiple replies - they keep showing up as drafts and so I finish them (differently as you may see). Since I've already lurched off the path of a good internet debate, let me bring up a book I am reading:
Surfaces and Essences: Analogy as the Fuel and Fire of Thinking [Kindle Edition] Douglas Hofstadter<http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_1?_encoding=UTF8&field-author=Douglas%20Hofstadter&search-alias=digital-text&sort=relevancerank> (Author), Emmanuel Sander<http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_2?_encoding=UTF8&field-author=Emmanuel%20Sander&search-alias=digital-text&sort=relevancerank> (Author) Hofstadter is an interesting thinking - not necessarily a zennist, tho he writes about koans a fair amount in Gödel Escher Bach, and is vegetarian for basically Buddhist grounds. He's a smart person that is very interested in the nature of our cognitive processes, a natural topic of interest to one who has spent a lot of time meditating. His point in this book is that "reasoning by analogy" is at the heart of the "easy for people" type thinking that has so far eluded artificial intelligence research. Thanks, --Chris [email protected] +1-301-270-6524 On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 2:41 PM, Chris Austin-Lane <[email protected]>wrote: > > I can get dressed perfectly well without activating any reasoning > circuits. Subconscious planning and spatial understanding circuits may be > used. But not what I mean by rational thought, nor what I think Bill! means > by rational thought. > > It is perfectly possible to put pants on without using any rational > thinking at all, just the unconscious firing of neurons. > > --Chris > > Thanks, > --Chris > 301-270-6524 > On May 25, 2013 8:57 AM, "Edgar Owen" <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> Chris, >> >> Yes, if you manage to put your pants on in the morning you ARE using your >> rational mind. >> >> Bill obviously walks around without pants all day hoping to preserve his >> Zen... >> >> Edgar >> >> >> >> On May 25, 2013, at 11:14 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: >> >> >> >> I say the thoughts have actual reality and a limited illusory implicit >> world view they carry with them. >> >> I don't find much reason to distinguish the neuronal firings of hearing a >> frog jumping into the water and the neuronal firings of remembering a frog >> jumping into water. But to take a thought seriously, haha, that way leads >> to madness. >> >> The fact of maths being so effective in science is still in my mind part >> of the mystery, and some little model of computation cribbed from recent >> popular science fails to address it. >> >> I also am pretty sure one may put pants on without having an effective >> reasonable model of computation externalized. One may just put the pants >> on. >> >> Thanks, >> --Chris >> 301-270-6524 >> On May 25, 2013 7:10 AM, "Bill!" <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Edgar, >>> >>> People create illusions so why can't people decide on whether they're >>> real or not? >>> >>> I say they're not. >>> >>> ...Bill! >>> >>> --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: >>> > >>> > Bill, >>> > >>> > People don't decide whether illusions are real or not. Reality does! >>> Get that through your solipsistic head! >>> > >>> > Edgar >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On May 25, 2013, at 9:11 AM, Bill! wrote: >>> > >>> > > Edgar, >>> > > >>> > > As long as you agree dualism is an illusion you can call it >>> 'reality' if you wish. I don't agree, but we can let others decide for >>> themselves if illusions are real or not. >>> > > >>> > > ...Bill! >>> > > >>> > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: >>> > > > >>> > > > Bill, >>> > > > >>> > > > Total agreement as stated. >>> > > > >>> > > > Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in >>> reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole meaning.. >>> > > > >>> > > > Edgar >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: >>> > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Siska, >>> > > > > >>> > > > > As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar >>> opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree >>> with this statement ;>) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this >>> post. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Rumi's poem/metaphor was: >>> > > > > >>> > > > > I looked for my self, >>> > > > > But my self was gone. >>> > > > > The boundaries of my being >>> > > > > Had disappeared in the sea. >>> > > > > Waves broke. Awareness rose again. >>> > > > > And a voice returned me to myself. >>> > > > > It always happens like this. >>> > > > > Sea turns on itself and foams, >>> > > > > And with every foaming bit another body. >>> > > > > Another being takes form. >>> > > > > And when the sea sends word, >>> > > > > Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. >>> > > > > - Rumi >>> > > > > >>> > > > > I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves >>> form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves >>> by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later >>> composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: >>> > > > > >>> > > > > I looked for my self, >>> > > > > But my self was gone. >>> > > > > The boundaries of my being >>> > > > > Had disappeared in the sea. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The >>> illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something >>> independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has >>> vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Waves broke. Awareness rose again. >>> > > > > And a voice returned me to myself. >>> > > > > It always happens like this. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has >>> been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation >>> between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, >>> much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Sea turns on itself and foams, >>> > > > > And with every foaming bit another body. >>> > > > > Another being takes form. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, >>> perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > And when the sea sends word, >>> > > > > Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions >>> melt back into emptiness. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see >>> what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... >>> > > > > >>> > > > > ...Bill! >>> > > > > >>> > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > Hi Bill, >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > I followed until: "Waves broke". >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > Siska >>> > > > > > -----Original Message----- >>> > > > > > From: "Bill!" BillSmart@ >>> > > > > > Sender: [email protected] >>> > > > > > Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 >>> > > > > > To: [email protected] >>> > > > > > Reply-To: [email protected] >>> > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > ..Bill! >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are >>> reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > >
