bill...thank you for the clarification... merle Merle,
Zen Buddhism (Japanese), Ch'an Buddhism (Chinese) and Soen Buddhism (Korean) are all very similar and to the best of my knowledge (which is not that great in this area) share the same foundations and basic teachings. There are some differences though. JMJM on this forum is a Ch'an teacher and could maybe tell you about more of those. Because of JMJM's presence on the forum I sometimes include Ch'an in when speaking about zen, especially when I firmly believe the topics I'm discussing are common to both. So for now let's just drop Ch'an so not to be confusing. I think what's confusing you here is the term 'Buddha Nature'. It has the word 'Buddha' in it so I think it's hard for you to separate any notion of 'Buddha Nature' from Buddhism proper. I use the term 'Buddha Nature' because it's a fairly universally accepted term throughout the zen community and comes up fairly often in zen literature. The term 'Buddha Nature' is just a label or name given to the 'direct, non-dualistic experience of reality'. It's also been called 'Original Face' which is less Buddhist-specific, and a lot of other things which I won't go into here. In any even this experience is part of the original nature of all sentient beings, and was so long before Buddha (Siddartha Gautama) walked the earth. It is I believe what Buddha experienced while sitting under the Bodhi tree and went on to teach about; but Buddha isn't the only or even the first one in history to teach these things. Buddha taught about his experience through a Hindu perspective and used Hindu symbolisms and language to do so. Jesus I believe also had this same experience and then went out and taught about it from a Jewish perspective using Jewish symbolisms and language. So...it's not so much the 'Buddha' part of Buddha Nature that I treasure, but that is just the term I use to describe it. Think of it as just 'original nature' which is a quality of all sentient beings. The 'original' part IMO (and this is a controversial opinion) means 'before the encroachment of the intellect and the rising of duality' You can read more about what I think about this at: http://www.billsmart.com/writing/zen/self/self.htm ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: > > > >  >  Bill...still confused...so zen is  chan...?..if you wish to experience > buddha nature directly you do zen?... no buddhism involved... >  so why are you desiring to experience buddha nature and then claim it has > nothing to do with buddhism?...  merle >  > Merle, > > Well, that all depends on what you mean by 'zen'. > > I've defined what I mean by zen (lower-case 'z') many, many times on this > forum and elsewhere. A short version of that definition is: a set of > teachings and techniques that first lead you to directly experience reality > (a.k.a. Buddha Nature); and then helps you integrate that experience into > every facet of your daily life. > > These techniques (zazen, chanting, bowing, koans, etc...)do not have to be > associated with Buddhism. If they are then that is Zen Buddhism, and in that > case the teachings are encased in the language of Buddhism. This is fact is > how I was introduced to zen, via a Japanese form of Zen Buddhism. > > To sum up, I believe zen is not in any way dependent upon Buddhism, Buddhist > teachings, dogmas, doctrine or practices. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > >  > >  from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have > > buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle > >  > > Merle, > > > > Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism. > > > > Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, > > doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have nothing > > directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on > > covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case of most > > other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a > > cult. > > > > This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is > > a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an > > upper-case 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism. > > > > This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by > > those that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification > > > referred to as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist > > > principles?... merle > > >  > > > Merle, > > > > > > As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a > > > Buddhist. > > > > > > I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I > > > practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. > > > What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those > > > delusions. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen > > > > buddhist are you?..merle > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone > > > > who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same > > > > language as I do. Someone ELSE! > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ bill...not why me...that's > > > > > plain silly..why not you?...merle > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain > > > > > as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be > > > > > bad; and maybe even think "Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer > > > > > all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go > > > > > away!". > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ> > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental > > > > > > delusion?...merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ> > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post > > > > > > below. > > > > > > > > > > > > The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha > > > > > > Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental > > > > > > delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The > > > > > > classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†> > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try > > > > > > > telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†> > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as > > > > > > > through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. > > > > > > > It involves a disconnection with the illusion of self and all > > > > > > > dualism. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as > > > > > > > > far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to > > > > > > > > afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of > > > > > > > > Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know > > > > > > > > them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i know this is a little crazy..however here i go..ÃÆ'Æ'Æ> > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'†> > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are > > > > > > > > > in cyber space.... although we need the body to get the > > > > > > > > > messages out there...mm that has me stumped! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > would this body less be liken to the meditation ÃÆ'Æ'Æ> > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'†> > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > state that can be achieved once one has surpassed the breath > > > > > > > > > counting saga? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†> > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > i have belief that monks can practise a form of meditation > > > > > > > > > whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down to an > > > > > > > > > almost non existent state > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in all the many previous post there has been much focus on > > > > > > > > > slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind > > > > > > > > > of it's own so to speak? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in > > > > > > > > > the body that we do not have any control over what so ever... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own > > > > > > > > > thing regardless)... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†> > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > my zen question is thus: ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†> > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > to be totally free ..the human body is it a restraint? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†> > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†> > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Merle > > > > > > > > > www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
