Drones!
--- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Â so what is american...?...merle
>
>
> Â
> Chan is Chinese interpretation zen is Japanese. Tibean is Dali Lama?
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 2:30 AM, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote:
>
>
> >Â
> >
> >
> >Â
> > Bill...still confused...so zen is  chan...?..if you wish to experience
> >buddha nature directly you do zen?... no buddhism involved...
> >Â so why are you desiring to experience buddha nature and then claim it has
> >nothing to do with buddhism?... Â merle
> >Â
> >Merle,
> >
> >Well, that all depends on what you mean by 'zen'.
> >
> >I've defined what I mean by zen (lower-case 'z') many, many times on this
> >forum and elsewhere. A short version of that definition is: a set of
> >teachings and techniques that first lead you to directly experience reality
> >(a.k.a. Buddha Nature); and then helps you integrate that experience into
> >every facet of your daily life.
> >
> >These techniques (zazen, chanting, bowing, koans, etc...)do not have to be
> >associated with Buddhism. If they are then that is Zen Buddhism, and in
> >that case the teachings are encased in the language of Buddhism. This is
> >fact is how I was introduced to zen, via a Japanese form of Zen Buddhism.
> >
> >To sum up, I believe zen is not in any way dependent upon Buddhism, Buddhist
> >teachings, dogmas, doctrine or practices.
> >
> >...Bill!
> >
> >--- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ÃÂ
> >> ÃÂ from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have
> >> buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle
> >> ÃÂ
> >> Merle,
> >>
> >> Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism.
> >>
> >> Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles,
> >> dogma, doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have
> >> nothing directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like
> >> an add-on covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the
> >> case of most other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in
> >> fact seen as a cult.
> >>
> >> This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which
> >> is a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an
> >> upper-case 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism.
> >>
> >> This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by
> >> those that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists.
> >>
> >> ...Bill!
> >>
> >> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Ãâàhallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification
> >> > referred to as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist
> >> > principles?... merle
> >> > ÃâÃÂ
> >> > Merle,
> >> >
> >> > As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a
> >> > Buddhist.
> >> >
> >> > I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I
> >> > practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions.
> >> > What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those
> >> > delusions.
> >> >
> >> > ...Bill!
> >> >
> >> > ...Bill!
> >> >
> >> > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàbill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen
> >> > > buddhist are you?..merle
> >> > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâÃÂ
> >> > > Merle,
> >> > >
> >> > > Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone
> >> > > who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same
> >> > > language as I do. Someone ELSE!
> >> > >
> >> > > ...Bill!
> >> > >
> >> > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã
¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàbill...not why me...that's
> >> > > > plain silly..why not you?...merle
> >> > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã
¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâÃÂ
> >> > > > Merle,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain
> >> > > > as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be
> >> > > > bad; and maybe even think "Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer
> >> > > > all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go
> >> > > > away!".
> >> > > >
> >> > > > ...Bill!
> >> > > >
> >> > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã
> >> > > > > ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàhave you been in pain bill..and thought it
> >> > > > > was judgemental delusion?...merle
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã
> >> > > > > ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâÃÂ
> >> > > > > Merle,
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post
> >> > > > > below.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is
> >> > > > > Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the
> >> > > > > judgmental delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real.
> >> > > > > The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > ...Bill!
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@>
> >> > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Ã
> >> > > > > > ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ
> >> > > > > > 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã
> >> > > > > > ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàbill...i see...so if one is in pain..this
> >> > > > > > is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in
> >> > > > > > agony...merle
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Ã
> >> > > > > > ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ
> >> > > > > > 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã
> >> > > > > > ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâÃÂ
> >> > > > > > Merle,
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as
> >> > > > > > through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body.
> >> > > > > > It involves a disconnection with the illusion of self and all
> >> > > > > > dualism.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > ...Bill!
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote:
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Merle,
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least
> >> > > > > > > as far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability
> >> > > > > > > to afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of
> >> > > > > > > Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know
> >> > > > > > > them.
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > ...Bill!
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@>
> >> > > > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > i know this is a little crazy..however here i
> >> > > > > > > > go..ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â
> >> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Ã
> >> > > > > > > > ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ
> >> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã
> >> > > > > > > > ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâÃÂ
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are
> >> > > > > > > > in cyber space.... although we need the body to get the
> >> > > > > > > > messages out there...mm that has me stumped!
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > would this body less be liken to the meditation ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ
> >> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Ã
> >> > > > > > > > ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ
> >> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã
> >> > > > > > > > ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàstate that can be achieved once one
> >> > > > > > > > has surpassed the breath counting saga?
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â
> >> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Ã
> >> > > > > > > > ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ
> >> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã
> >> > > > > > > > ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâài have belief that monks can practise
> >> > > > > > > > a form of meditation whereby the can slow the whole body/
> >> > > > > > > > mind totally down to an almost non existent state
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > in all the many previous post there has been much focus on
> >> > > > > > > > slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind
> >> > > > > > > > of it's own so to speak?
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in
> >> > > > > > > > the body that we do not have any control over what so ever...
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own
> >> > > > > > > > thing regardless)...
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â
> >> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Ã
> >> > > > > > > > ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ
> >> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã
> >> > > > > > > > ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàmy zen question is thus: ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ
> >> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Ã
> >> > > > > > > > ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ
> >> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã
> >> > > > > > > > ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàto be totally free ..the human body is
> >> > > > > > > > it a restraint?
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â
> >> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Ã
> >> > > > > > > > ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ
> >> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã
> >> > > > > > > > ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàmerle
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â
> >> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Ã
> >> > > > > > > > ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ
> >> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã
> >> > > > > > > > ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâÃÂ
> >> > > > > > > > Merle
> >> > > > > > > > www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Larry Maher
>
------------------------------------
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