>> A presumption is something that is based on an assumption? As far >> as I know, Buddhism is the only religion that lays any claims to >> "Enlightenment." So presumably, Buddhists would be the most aware, >> or enlightened people. No other major religion even remotely >> touches the issue of enlightenment, self-awareness, awareness, >> etc. If you think that Buddhists are not the most aware people, >> then present an argument for your candidate, do not merely take a >> shot at me.
first of all AC, i'm not "taking a shot at you" by asking questions. i do think however that you are engaging in "putting one's head above another's" when you speak of buddhism that way. secondly, i dispute the notion that buddhism "lays claim to 'enlightenment'". all the buddha said was that he had a Path to follow. he did not say it was the *exclusive* end all, be all path. it was a path. i won't claim, nor do i presume, as someone who tries to practice, that it's the *only* path. nor will i claim that i'm more "aware" than others who are not following this particular path. there are other traditions, e.g., the sufis amongst moslems, certain "mystics" among christians, etc, that come close to, if not actually claim to achieve the same kinds of "awarenesses" that buddhists strive for. incidently, i don't claim that kind of awareness for myself because frankly i'm not "enlightened". i'm a just a practitioner finding my way, not a teacher who has taken inka. >> You cannot find out who is going to listen if you are sitting on >> your ass in the comfort of your Zendo. Buddhists seem to be long on >> talk and short on action when it comes to saving souls. first of all you seem to be able to make sweeping authoritative statements about "buddhists" versus others. are you so sure that all buddhists just sit on their ass in zendos all day & do nothing constructive with their practice in their lives? i certainly don't sit on my ass all day in zazen. there are many days when i in fact don't sit at all. >> I view it as how one religion puts its money where its mouth is, >> and another religion concentrates on producing events and speaking >> engagements and selling books. oh, you mean the "700 club" is an example of putting one's money where one's mouth is? LOL. >> >> there are souls everywhere that could use pacifism. sudan, >> >> northern ireland, east timor, sri lanka, etc. even here in the >> >> united states.>> >> That has to be the ultimate cop-out. no it's NOT a cop out to state that everyone needs help all over the world. it simply is a statement of *fact*. >> It helps me to understand why Buddhism looks for money first, and >> enlightenment later. Why save POOR souls when there are so many >> rich ones that need help? You could apply your logic to anything >> and end up where ever it is most convenient for you. again the sweeping, authoritative generalization. are you damning all buddhist practitioners in the u.s. because you think they are rich selfish & uninterested in what happens with poor people? >> It is easier to spread the Dharma in America, where the main >> concern is getting the members to donate enough money for a Temple >> to pay its bills and grow larger. Why waste money in poor nations? where i am, it's very hard for our sangha to even pay the bills. BILLS ARE JUST A FACT OF LIFE. there is no "mother church" or diocese to help us with our bills, as happens with other christian denominations in the US. dealing with that reality is part of our practice as well: scraping up enough cash to make it this month & next to rent space in church basements or the Y or wherever. our sangha doesn't own land like many established churches do. some churches in our area in fact are major landlords in their own right. if your point is that all US buddhist practioners are rich & that US zen sanghas have it easy, it's a point completely lost on me. some may be so; others, like the one i belong to, aren't. >> I have yet to hear of a Buddhist Temple that supports the homeless >> here in America and has any kind of social welfare commitment. If >> there is any, it would be nice to hear about it. >> So in a roundabout way, I guess I want to know what is Zen really >> doing to help the world? Turning the Dharma Wheel in imaginary >> encounters is one thing, feeding hungry people and helping those in >> need is the real thing. i'm not sure why it has to be an *institutional* thing. if in our individual practice & lives we do things to support others in need, is that not a valid mode of buddhist practice? - elk ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/S27xlB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Noble Eightfold Path: Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration, Right Livelihood Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZenForum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
