Dear Alex, You have somewhat missed the Soto point here. There is no end...so the means are all there is. There is no realized, only realizing. There is no being a Buddha, only becoming a Buddha.
Practice is possible to identify, at least the Soto definition of practice. Dogen has laid it out in his writings down to how to wipe your ass with a ball of clay. Every moment of every day there is a prescribed practice for the Soto monk to be performing. Dogen does not say practice is the means and realization is the end. He says practice itself is realization, and to the extent you practice (and yes he does give you a set practice) the more enlightenment is realized (made real). For Dogen realization is not something that happens within the mind. It is what happens. It is what is made real or made manifest in the world. "If practice and realization were two different stages as as ordinary people consider then to be, the one sitting in zazen and things should perceive each other. to be associated with perceptions is not the mark of realization, because the mark of realization is to be beyond such illusions." From the first moment you sit down to your clumsy attempt at zazen, your are realizing, and this realizing is no different twenty years later. It does not cease, there is no end, no progress, no attainment and nothing to attain. In such a position there is no debate about the means being different from the end. It is not looking at practice as the means to an end. It is looking at what you put into practice as all that really is. Be Well Fudo Alex Bunard wrote: > Dear Fudo, > > This boils down to the debate whether we're mistaken > to consider the means different from the end. One way > of looking at it is that practice is the means to > achieving the end. The end is the fully blown > enlightenment (anuttara samyak sambodhi). > > Some practitioners (the Soto dudes come to mind) hold > that practice itself (i.e. the means) is anuttara > samyak sambodhi. In one sense, they are right. But in > another sense, they are talking gibberish. > > In reality, it seems that it is not possible to > identify practice, nor is it possible to identify the > end, the result. Examined by itself, practice cannot > withstand sustained consideration. Same goes for the > end, the fruition of the practice. Examined together, > practice and its outcome are equally untenable. > > These things, these issues, are beyond thought. It is > not possible to think cogently about them. Thought > cannot reach it. > > Be Super Well. > > Alex ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/S27xlB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Noble Eightfold Path: Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration, Right Livelihood Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZenForum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
