Dear Alex, There is much in Dogen that is superstition. I do not disagree.
I do disagree that Dogen's idea of practice was not specific..I do not know how he could get more specific. I am not living in Japan, nor is it my choice to live in Japan, I do happen to practice a form of Buddhism that came from Japan and I thought it worthwhile to go and see the practice as it is in modern Japan. I could write a book on my impressions of what I saw, and still not communicate the half of it. There are those, who do understand Dogen, and If you understand Dogen after you dig very deep you find a deeply anal retentive person. You also find a fantastically brilliant person who wrote some very deep things. I disagree that there has to be an end. I disagree that enlightenment is something that happens in your mind. Dogen also did not agree that understanding was enough. It is the easy part. Seeing what needs to be done is not enough. Only doing what needs to be done will suffice. It is you who wanted to say practice is a means. I also disagreed with this point. Practice is it..it is neither end nor means. It is enlightenment itself. This is your frame for the debate and I reject it entirely. I do not particularly care if you think what Dogen taught was BS. I know you will not be surprised that I think you have an amazing ability to cover any thought with a mile high pile of BS. Many of us do. It is constantly my practice to make this more simple and less complex. It does not need to be complex and we do not need to use esoteric terms like rupa and shunyata to express our ideas in English. I sort of see this as adding an extra layer of difficulty that is not needed. To me the academic practice of making everything more complex just so there is a book to be found somewhere so you can publish instead of perish to be even further off the track than lighting incense at a altar so Kannon can help you with your math test, where you will demonstrate an ability to multiply polynomials that even a fricken space engineer will never have to really do in his whole career. Some of what you dismiss as superstition has a purpose and an effect that you obviously have missed completely in your quest to prove your point. The problem with setting out to prove a point, is you miss everything that does not fit the proof. If one sets out to see what is there, one might see an entirely different set of results.This is why we routinely dismiss the experiments sponsored by tobacco companys on the effects of smoking. The point being that this is the way that has been transmitted...the Soto Zen way, and they do not care if you think it is superstitious or a waste of time..it is designed to be that way. The point is to abandon your likes and dislikes and just do what you are supposed to do, and in the very act of abanoning your likes and dislikes, you drop off body and mind, and step on to the way. Even if you do not understand that is what you have done. A Monk on his way to stay at a temple asked his master what he should do to attain the way. The master answerd "Just inquire about the schedule and follow it." Be Well Fudo lex Bunard wrote: > Dear Fudo, > > I'm aware of the Soto point, and thanks for bringing > it forward so succinctly. > > I think that, in one respect, Dogen produced a lot of > mumbo-jumbo. I don't mean to be disrespectful here, > but his teachings are one of the easiest to > misinterpret and to get lost in and end up being > utterly confused. > > I question here whether it is possible to have only > means without having an end at the same time. It's > like saying that there are only tall people in the > world. Short people simply don't exist. > > But you see, the only way we could have tall people at > all is if we have short people as well. They condition > each other, they make each other arise (no pun > intended). > > Same is with means and an end. We cannot have an end > if there are no means, and vice versa. They are > dependently originated, dependently ceased. > > Similarly, there can be no becoming if there is no > being. There can be no realizing without the realized. > No karma without karta. No attribute without the > underlying substance. No underlying substratum without > the mode. > > No identity without difference. No difference without > indentity. > > No rupa without sunyata. No sunyata without rupa. > > Such is the conventional truth of dependent > origination (pratitya samutpada). This is the backbone > of the Buddha's teaching (Four Noble Truths being the > heart of his teaching). And the backbone of > Nagarjuna's teaching is that pratitya samutpada == > sunyata. > > Dogen's practice, the way he formulated it, is just a > big honking make-believe. It is all bullshit. Anyone > who firmly believes in the cocreteness of Dogen's > prescribed practice might as well go and practice > under Dalai Lama or under the Pope for that matter. > It's all the same charade. > > Medieval Japan was a bedrock of largely unchecked > superstitious behavior (the same can be said for the > modern Japan? Yes? No?) > > Now, dear Fudo, as a person with a vested interest in > the Japanese brand of the Buddhist practice, I know > you will now plug your ears and go "lalalalala!", and > I don't blame you. I apologize for desecrating (or for > even bringing up) your lifestyle of choice. > > But we need to address this issue of the propensity > for superstitious behavior that is so prominent > amongst humans. Especially among humans from the Far > East. > > Alex ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/S27xlB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Noble Eightfold Path: Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration, Right Livelihood Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZenForum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
