--- Well, I would like to preface this by stating that I hope I'm
not coming off as arguementitive. I believe in discussion of ideas
in a positive enviornment with an open mind; I would refer you to
Michel Eyquem de Montaigne's Essay on Conversion, his eloquence far
exceeds my capabilities.
Now, in regards to Buddha's statement, there are several points
to adress. First is the fundemental problem of argueing. To me,
arguements are different from discussion in that argueing implies a
certain belief that you are right, and an unwillingness to view the
other perspectives. I don't need to draw a picture to show the
fallacy of thought or possible pitfalls there.
The other thing I derive from that Buddha understood that
argueing creates unnessecery conflict. If someone comes to you in an
aggressive manner of arguement, to confront them with arguement will
only exacerbate the problem. If you do not react, or react with a
gentle response, they will blow hot air for a while but then lose
their aggression and will enter a state of mind far more conducive
to discussion. As a professional waiter, trust me, it works.
I think there is also a deeper meaning here. I'm not sure if you
believe in the concept of ki or centering, but to allow yourself to
be drawn into arguement would seem to me to upset that natural
balance, pulling you off center, which means you have lost the
arguement even if you won it.
So what's the Alex Conundrum? Someone made reference to it in
the previous letter, I believe pertaining to the concept of
philosophical application to the real world. Thanks for your
comments, Guy
In [email protected], Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hey Guy,
>
> Thanks for your excellent comments. I agree with
> everything you've said.
>
> Here is another thing I'd like to ask you. The Buddha
> once said: "People may argue with me, but I do not
> argue with them."
>
> What (if anything) do you get out of that saying?
>
> Alex
>
> --- ventouxboy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> > --- Hey Alex, thanks for the wisdom. So let me see
> > if I clearly
> > understand you. Your vision of Zen is based on
> > concentration and
> > observing phenomena, which I'm assuming ties into
> > the recent threads
> > of detachment. To me, when you say observing
> > phenomena, it implies
> > observing something for what it is without applying
> > judgement or
> > opinion, which is what I consider objectivity.
> >
> > I applaude your comments on the prepackaged,
> > "feel good" ideas
> > that are marketed as spirituality. You're very
> > right, too many
> > people seek the easiest road possible and resign
> > their fates to
> > somone else's ideas. Undeniably a recipe for
> > disaster. The search
> > for truth, however you define it, is often painful
> > and sometimes
> > very unpalatable; however, speaking for myself, I
> > would rather
> > swallow the bitter pill of truth than the nectar of
> > lies. That, to
> > me, is the only way to see things as they are, not
> > how we want them
> > to be. Which, corect me if I'm wrong, kind of ties
> > back into your
> > remark of observing phenomena.
> >
> > So you ask why attachment to things is "bad".
> > Maybe I'm naive to
> > the question, but it seems pretty straightforward.
> > The basic pitfall
> > I see to attachment is that it's seeking happiness
> > outside of
> > yourself. I once read that a Buddhist needs nothing
> > more than a
> > bowl, a spoon, and a robe. A bowl and spoon to feed
> > themselves and a
> > robe to clothe themselves, for these cover the
> > shortcomings of the
> > human form; hunger and sensitivity to climate. If
> > you truly need
> > more than that, I don't think you'll ever find
> > yourself, and how can
> > you know true happiness? Ralph Waldo Emerson once
> > said, "Simplicity,
> > simplicity, simplicity".
> >
> > The other issue I see with attachments is that
> > the more you have,
> > the more your mind devotes to them. The more you
> > devote to them, the
> > question becomes "Who is master and who is slave?".
> >
> > Again, I would like to thank you for your
> > comments, Alex. I grew
> > up in rural Montana when I first learned of Buddhism
> > and Zen(no Zen
> > groups there, had to keep it hidden for various
> > reasons), so this is
> > my first opportunity to compare notes. Guy :)
> >
> > [email protected], Alex Bunard
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > --- ventouxboy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ---Interesting you don't believe in
> > enlightenment. I
> > > > understand the
> > > > concept of Zen seperate from it, as a philosophy
> > of
> > > > living, but then
> > > > why meditate or ponder koans? Isn't the purpose
> > of
> > > > these to free the
> > > > mind from barriers, which is what I see
> > > > enlightenment as.
> > > >
> > > > Now you've whetted my intellectual curiosity.
> > So
> > > > what is your
> > > > vision of Zen, in what way does it benefit your
> > > > life?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for the feedback Alex, I will always
> > > > appreciate a different
> > > > viewpoint, it's how we learn, Guy.:)
> > >
> > > Hey Guy,
> > >
> > > I'm in a bit of a rush now, as my course is about
> > to
> > > start in 20 minutes. I'll see what I can squeeze
> > for
> > > now, and then maybe give you something more cogent
> > > tomorrow. How's that? Deal?
> > >
> > > I always like to put Zen in the context. Forgive
> > me if
> > > this is old news to you, but I'd like to reiterate
> > > that 'Zen' is a Japanese word which is a
> > translation
> > > of the Chinese word 'Chan' which is a translation
> > of
> > > the Sanskrit word 'Dhyana'. Now the buck stops
> > here!
> > > What does Dhyana mean? Dhyana means concentration.
> > >
> > > Concentration on what? On examining phenomena.
> > >
> > > Most Buddhist practitioners I know, if asked what
> > is
> > > the most important thing one needs to do in order
> > to
> > > realize enlightenment, would say that it's to get
> > rid
> > > of attachments.
> > >
> > > But when we examine attachments carefully (i.e.
> > when
> > > we concentrate on them utilizing dhyana), we don't
> > > find anything particularly objectionable and bad
> > about
> > > them. So, why should we abandon them? Why would
> > > attachments be any worse than non-attachments?
> > >
> > > Actually, to be perfectly honest here, pretty much
> > > nobody ever examines these things. Let's face it,
> > we
> > > all take them for granted, simply because we read
> > > about them in some book, or someone told us to do
> > so.
> > >
> > > But you see, this is the worst part, the fact that
> > no
> > > one examines anything. Everyone is looking only
> > for
> > > instant gratification. So:
> > >
> > > abandon attachments == attain enlightenment
> > >
> > > Simple as that. And we're done!
> > >
> > > Most people need pithy slogans, simplistic
> > formulas
> > > (like the one above), and such. No one wants to
> > > perform the real work that is absolutely necessary
> > in
> > > order for them to wake up.
> > >
> > > Zen is being sold nowadays as this quick and easy
> > high
> > > road to satori. You don't have to know anything
> > about
> > > the Buddha's teaching, just come and sit with us,
> > and
> > > bingo! you'll get enlightened. What's more,
> > expending
> > > any effort to learn about the Buddha's teaching
> > will
> > > only make things worse for you. So, kill the
> > Buddha!
> > >
> > > What I'd like to ask all of you here is to try and
> > > explain why do you think that attachment should be
> > > regarded as bad? In other words, what could
> > possibly
> > > be wrong with attachment? Or, conversely, why do
> > you
> > > think it's not bad?
> > >
> > > Then I'll return tomorrow and explain myself. But
> > for
> > > now, I'd have to excuse myself.
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > Alex
> > >
> > >
> > > =====
> > > No karma was produced during the composition of
> > this letter
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
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> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> No karma was produced during the composition of this letter
>
>
>
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