--- Well, oringinally I had one question, now I have two. First,
what's The Alex Conundrum? It was mentioned in an earlier post from
someone else; sounded like a joke there.
And now, what's your take on Buddha's statement about arguing?
Don't leave me hanging man! As I said before, different opinions are
how we learn. Thanks for the comments, Guy.
In [email protected], Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Very nice expose. The Buddha's adminition had a
> slightly different overtone and was aimed in the
> different direction, but your understanding is
> nevertheless impeccable.
>
> Now, you had a question about certain things that you
> haven't seen surface in the threads here. What was it
> you wanted to ask/discuss?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Alex
>
> --- ventouxboy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> > --- Well, I would like to preface this by stating
> > that I hope I'm
> > not coming off as arguementitive. I believe in
> > discussion of ideas
> > in a positive enviornment with an open mind; I would
> > refer you to
> > Michel Eyquem de Montaigne's Essay on Conversion,
> > his eloquence far
> > exceeds my capabilities.
> >
> > Now, in regards to Buddha's statement, there are
> > several points
> > to adress. First is the fundemental problem of
> > argueing. To me,
> > arguements are different from discussion in that
> > argueing implies a
> > certain belief that you are right, and an
> > unwillingness to view the
> > other perspectives. I don't need to draw a picture
> > to show the
> > fallacy of thought or possible pitfalls there.
> >
> > The other thing I derive from that Buddha
> > understood that
> > argueing creates unnessecery conflict. If someone
> > comes to you in an
> > aggressive manner of arguement, to confront them
> > with arguement will
> > only exacerbate the problem. If you do not react, or
> > react with a
> > gentle response, they will blow hot air for a while
> > but then lose
> > their aggression and will enter a state of mind far
> > more conducive
> > to discussion. As a professional waiter, trust me,
> > it works.
> >
> > I think there is also a deeper meaning here. I'm
> > not sure if you
> > believe in the concept of ki or centering, but to
> > allow yourself to
> > be drawn into arguement would seem to me to upset
> > that natural
> > balance, pulling you off center, which means you
> > have lost the
> > arguement even if you won it.
> >
> > So what's the Alex Conundrum? Someone made
> > reference to it in
> > the previous letter, I believe pertaining to the
> > concept of
> > philosophical application to the real world. Thanks
> > for your
> > comments, Guy
> >
> > In [email protected], Alex Bunard
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Hey Guy,
> > >
> > > Thanks for your excellent comments. I agree with
> > > everything you've said.
> > >
> > > Here is another thing I'd like to ask you. The
> > Buddha
> > > once said: "People may argue with me, but I do not
> > > argue with them."
> > >
> > > What (if anything) do you get out of that saying?
> > >
> > > Alex
> > >
> > > --- ventouxboy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > --- Hey Alex, thanks for the wisdom. So let me
> > see
> > > > if I clearly
> > > > understand you. Your vision of Zen is based on
> > > > concentration and
> > > > observing phenomena, which I'm assuming ties
> > into
> > > > the recent threads
> > > > of detachment. To me, when you say observing
> > > > phenomena, it implies
> > > > observing something for what it is without
> > applying
> > > > judgement or
> > > > opinion, which is what I consider objectivity.
> > > >
> > > > I applaude your comments on the prepackaged,
> > > > "feel good" ideas
> > > > that are marketed as spirituality. You're very
> > > > right, too many
> > > > people seek the easiest road possible and resign
> > > > their fates to
> > > > somone else's ideas. Undeniably a recipe for
> > > > disaster. The search
> > > > for truth, however you define it, is often
> > painful
> > > > and sometimes
> > > > very unpalatable; however, speaking for myself,
> > I
> > > > would rather
> > > > swallow the bitter pill of truth than the nectar
> > of
> > > > lies. That, to
> > > > me, is the only way to see things as they are,
> > not
> > > > how we want them
> > > > to be. Which, corect me if I'm wrong, kind of
> > ties
> > > > back into your
> > > > remark of observing phenomena.
> > > >
> > > > So you ask why attachment to things is "bad".
> > > > Maybe I'm naive to
> > > > the question, but it seems pretty
> > straightforward.
> > > > The basic pitfall
> > > > I see to attachment is that it's seeking
> > happiness
> > > > outside of
> > > > yourself. I once read that a Buddhist needs
> > nothing
> > > > more than a
> > > > bowl, a spoon, and a robe. A bowl and spoon to
> > feed
> > > > themselves and a
> > > > robe to clothe themselves, for these cover the
> > > > shortcomings of the
> > > > human form; hunger and sensitivity to climate.
> > If
> > > > you truly need
> > > > more than that, I don't think you'll ever find
> > > > yourself, and how can
> > > > you know true happiness? Ralph Waldo Emerson
> > once
> > > > said, "Simplicity,
> > > > simplicity, simplicity".
> > > >
> > > > The other issue I see with attachments is
> > that
> > > > the more you have,
> > > > the more your mind devotes to them. The more you
> > > > devote to them, the
> > > > question becomes "Who is master and who is
> > slave?".
> > > >
> > > > Again, I would like to thank you for your
> > > > comments, Alex. I grew
> > > > up in rural Montana when I first learned of
> > Buddhism
> > > > and Zen(no Zen
> > > > groups there, had to keep it hidden for various
> > > > reasons), so this is
> > > > my first opportunity to compare notes. Guy :)
> > > >
> > > > [email protected], Alex Bunard
> > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > --- ventouxboy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ---Interesting you don't believe in
> > > > enlightenment. I
> > > > > > understand the
> > > > > > concept of Zen seperate from it, as a
> > philosophy
> > > > of
> > > > > > living, but then
> > > > > > why meditate or ponder koans? Isn't the
> > purpose
> > > > of
> > > > > > these to free the
> > > > > > mind from barriers, which is what I see
> > > > > > enlightenment as.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now you've whetted my intellectual
> > curiosity.
> > > > So
> > > > > > what is your
> > > > > > vision of Zen, in what way does it benefit
> > your
> > > > > > life?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for the feedback Alex, I will always
> > > > > > appreciate a different
> > > > > > viewpoint, it's how we learn, Guy.:)
> > > > >
> > > > > Hey Guy,
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm in a bit of a rush now, as my course is
> > about
> > > > to
> > > > > start in 20 minutes. I'll see what I can
> > squeeze
> > > > for
> > > > > now, and then maybe give you something more
> > cogent
> > > > > tomorrow. How's that? Deal?
> > > > >
> > > > > I always like to put Zen in the context.
> > Forgive
> > > > me if
> > > > > this is old news to you, but I'd like to
> > reiterate
> > > > > that 'Zen' is a Japanese word which is a
> > > > translation
> > > > > of the Chinese word 'Chan' which is a
> > translation
> > > > of
> > > > > the Sanskrit word 'Dhyana'. Now the buck stops
> > > > here!
> > > > > What does Dhyana mean? Dhyana means
> > concentration.
> > > > >
> > > > > Concentration on what? On examining phenomena.
> > > > >
> > > > > Most Buddhist practitioners I know, if asked
> > what
> > > > is
> > > > > the most important thing one needs to do in
> > order
> > > > to
> > > > > realize enlightenment, would say that it's to
> > get
> > > > rid
> > > > > of attachments.
> > > > >
> > > > > But when we examine attachments carefully
> > (i.e.
> > > > when
> > > > > we concentrate on them utilizing dhyana), we
> > don't
> > > > > find anything particularly objectionable and
> > bad
> > > > about
> > > > > them. So, why should we abandon them? Why
> > would
> > > > > attachments be any worse than non-attachments?
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually, to be perfectly honest here, pretty
> > much
> > > > > nobody ever examines these things. Let's face
> > it,
> > > > we
> > > > > all take them for granted, simply because we
> > read
> > > > > about them in some book, or someone told us to
> > do
> > > > so.
> > > > >
> > > > > But you see, this is the worst part, the fact
> > that
> > > > no
> > > > > one examines anything. Everyone is looking
> > only
> > > > for
> > > > > instant gratification. So:
> > > > >
> > > > > abandon attachments == attain enlightenment
> > > > >
> > > > > Simple as that. And we're done!
> > > > >
> > > > > Most people need pithy slogans, simplistic
> > > > formulas
> > > > > (like the one above), and such. No one wants
> > to
> > > > > perform the real work that is absolutely
> > necessary
> > > > in
> > > > > order for them to wake up.
> > > > >
> > > > > Zen is being sold nowadays as this quick and
> > easy
> > > > high
> > > > > road to satori. You don't have to know
> > anything
> > > > about
> > > > > the Buddha's teaching, just come and sit with
> > us,
> > > > and
> > > > > bingo! you'll get enlightened. What's more,
> > > > expending
> > > > > any effort to learn about the Buddha's
> > teaching
> > > > will
> > > > > only make things worse for you. So, kill the
> > > > Buddha!
> > > > >
> > > > > What I'd like to ask all of you here is to try
> > and
> > > > > explain why do you think that attachment
> > should be
> > > > > regarded as bad? In other words, what could
> > > > possibly
> > > > > be wrong with attachment? Or, conversely, why
> > do
> > > > you
> > > > > think it's not bad?
> > > > >
> > > > > Then I'll return tomorrow and explain myself.
> > But
> > > > for
> > > > > now, I'd have to excuse myself.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks.
> > > > >
> > > > > Alex
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > =====
> > > > > No karma was produced during the composition
> > of
> > > > this letter
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > __________________________________________________
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> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > =====
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> > >
> > >
> > >
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