Very nice expose. The Buddha's adminition had a slightly different overtone and was aimed in the different direction, but your understanding is nevertheless impeccable.
Now, you had a question about certain things that you haven't seen surface in the threads here. What was it you wanted to ask/discuss? Thanks. Alex --- ventouxboy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- Well, I would like to preface this by stating > that I hope I'm > not coming off as arguementitive. I believe in > discussion of ideas > in a positive enviornment with an open mind; I would > refer you to > Michel Eyquem de Montaigne's Essay on Conversion, > his eloquence far > exceeds my capabilities. > > Now, in regards to Buddha's statement, there are > several points > to adress. First is the fundemental problem of > argueing. To me, > arguements are different from discussion in that > argueing implies a > certain belief that you are right, and an > unwillingness to view the > other perspectives. I don't need to draw a picture > to show the > fallacy of thought or possible pitfalls there. > > The other thing I derive from that Buddha > understood that > argueing creates unnessecery conflict. If someone > comes to you in an > aggressive manner of arguement, to confront them > with arguement will > only exacerbate the problem. If you do not react, or > react with a > gentle response, they will blow hot air for a while > but then lose > their aggression and will enter a state of mind far > more conducive > to discussion. As a professional waiter, trust me, > it works. > > I think there is also a deeper meaning here. I'm > not sure if you > believe in the concept of ki or centering, but to > allow yourself to > be drawn into arguement would seem to me to upset > that natural > balance, pulling you off center, which means you > have lost the > arguement even if you won it. > > So what's the Alex Conundrum? Someone made > reference to it in > the previous letter, I believe pertaining to the > concept of > philosophical application to the real world. Thanks > for your > comments, Guy > > In [email protected], Alex Bunard > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hey Guy, > > > > Thanks for your excellent comments. I agree with > > everything you've said. > > > > Here is another thing I'd like to ask you. The > Buddha > > once said: "People may argue with me, but I do not > > argue with them." > > > > What (if anything) do you get out of that saying? > > > > Alex > > > > --- ventouxboy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > --- Hey Alex, thanks for the wisdom. So let me > see > > > if I clearly > > > understand you. Your vision of Zen is based on > > > concentration and > > > observing phenomena, which I'm assuming ties > into > > > the recent threads > > > of detachment. To me, when you say observing > > > phenomena, it implies > > > observing something for what it is without > applying > > > judgement or > > > opinion, which is what I consider objectivity. > > > > > > I applaude your comments on the prepackaged, > > > "feel good" ideas > > > that are marketed as spirituality. You're very > > > right, too many > > > people seek the easiest road possible and resign > > > their fates to > > > somone else's ideas. Undeniably a recipe for > > > disaster. The search > > > for truth, however you define it, is often > painful > > > and sometimes > > > very unpalatable; however, speaking for myself, > I > > > would rather > > > swallow the bitter pill of truth than the nectar > of > > > lies. That, to > > > me, is the only way to see things as they are, > not > > > how we want them > > > to be. Which, corect me if I'm wrong, kind of > ties > > > back into your > > > remark of observing phenomena. > > > > > > So you ask why attachment to things is "bad". > > > Maybe I'm naive to > > > the question, but it seems pretty > straightforward. > > > The basic pitfall > > > I see to attachment is that it's seeking > happiness > > > outside of > > > yourself. I once read that a Buddhist needs > nothing > > > more than a > > > bowl, a spoon, and a robe. A bowl and spoon to > feed > > > themselves and a > > > robe to clothe themselves, for these cover the > > > shortcomings of the > > > human form; hunger and sensitivity to climate. > If > > > you truly need > > > more than that, I don't think you'll ever find > > > yourself, and how can > > > you know true happiness? Ralph Waldo Emerson > once > > > said, "Simplicity, > > > simplicity, simplicity". > > > > > > The other issue I see with attachments is > that > > > the more you have, > > > the more your mind devotes to them. The more you > > > devote to them, the > > > question becomes "Who is master and who is > slave?". > > > > > > Again, I would like to thank you for your > > > comments, Alex. I grew > > > up in rural Montana when I first learned of > Buddhism > > > and Zen(no Zen > > > groups there, had to keep it hidden for various > > > reasons), so this is > > > my first opportunity to compare notes. Guy :) > > > > > > [email protected], Alex Bunard > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > --- ventouxboy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > ---Interesting you don't believe in > > > enlightenment. I > > > > > understand the > > > > > concept of Zen seperate from it, as a > philosophy > > > of > > > > > living, but then > > > > > why meditate or ponder koans? Isn't the > purpose > > > of > > > > > these to free the > > > > > mind from barriers, which is what I see > > > > > enlightenment as. > > > > > > > > > > Now you've whetted my intellectual > curiosity. > > > So > > > > > what is your > > > > > vision of Zen, in what way does it benefit > your > > > > > life? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the feedback Alex, I will always > > > > > appreciate a different > > > > > viewpoint, it's how we learn, Guy.:) > > > > > > > > Hey Guy, > > > > > > > > I'm in a bit of a rush now, as my course is > about > > > to > > > > start in 20 minutes. I'll see what I can > squeeze > > > for > > > > now, and then maybe give you something more > cogent > > > > tomorrow. How's that? Deal? > > > > > > > > I always like to put Zen in the context. > Forgive > > > me if > > > > this is old news to you, but I'd like to > reiterate > > > > that 'Zen' is a Japanese word which is a > > > translation > > > > of the Chinese word 'Chan' which is a > translation > > > of > > > > the Sanskrit word 'Dhyana'. Now the buck stops > > > here! > > > > What does Dhyana mean? Dhyana means > concentration. > > > > > > > > Concentration on what? On examining phenomena. > > > > > > > > Most Buddhist practitioners I know, if asked > what > > > is > > > > the most important thing one needs to do in > order > > > to > > > > realize enlightenment, would say that it's to > get > > > rid > > > > of attachments. > > > > > > > > But when we examine attachments carefully > (i.e. > > > when > > > > we concentrate on them utilizing dhyana), we > don't > > > > find anything particularly objectionable and > bad > > > about > > > > them. So, why should we abandon them? Why > would > > > > attachments be any worse than non-attachments? > > > > > > > > Actually, to be perfectly honest here, pretty > much > > > > nobody ever examines these things. Let's face > it, > > > we > > > > all take them for granted, simply because we > read > > > > about them in some book, or someone told us to > do > > > so. > > > > > > > > But you see, this is the worst part, the fact > that > > > no > > > > one examines anything. Everyone is looking > only > > > for > > > > instant gratification. So: > > > > > > > > abandon attachments == attain enlightenment > > > > > > > > Simple as that. And we're done! > > > > > > > > Most people need pithy slogans, simplistic > > > formulas > > > > (like the one above), and such. No one wants > to > > > > perform the real work that is absolutely > necessary > > > in > > > > order for them to wake up. > > > > > > > > Zen is being sold nowadays as this quick and > easy > > > high > > > > road to satori. You don't have to know > anything > > > about > > > > the Buddha's teaching, just come and sit with > us, > > > and > > > > bingo! you'll get enlightened. What's more, > > > expending > > > > any effort to learn about the Buddha's > teaching > > > will > > > > only make things worse for you. So, kill the > > > Buddha! > > > > > > > > What I'd like to ask all of you here is to try > and > > > > explain why do you think that attachment > should be > > > > regarded as bad? In other words, what could > > > possibly > > > > be wrong with attachment? Or, conversely, why > do > > > you > > > > think it's not bad? > > > > > > > > Then I'll return tomorrow and explain myself. > But > > > for > > > > now, I'd have to excuse myself. > > > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > No karma was produced during the composition > of > > > this letter > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > > > protection around > > > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > No karma was produced during the composition of > this letter > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced > search. Learn more. > > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > > > > ===== No karma was produced during the composition of this letter __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Would you Help a Child in need? It�s easier than you think. 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