Hi Ian,

--- Ian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Alex, Francisco, and all
> 
> When I posted that, I wanted to show that while, as
> Alex says, no 
> determinations can ever do it justice, the Buddha
> still used a simile  - 
> "like a vast and mighty ocean" "profound,
> immeasurable, of a nature 
> difficult to penetrate"
> 
> I think this simile of the ocean can help allay
> concerns about Nirvana as 
> some kind of "absolute nullity" nada, zippo, state
> of nonexistence.

I think that realizing that nirvana is indeterminate
is the best way to allay concerns that is is "absolute
nullity", as you say, or state of nonexistence. This
is because "absolute nullity" or state of nonexistence
are determinations that are easily understandable and
graspable by everyone. Being indeterminate, nirvana is
not qualifiable by absolute nothingness, nihilism, or
any such determinants. Thus, it is free from even a
trace of nihilism or nullity. As such, it is not
graspable by anyone, and hence it is a hallmark of
freedom.

> Nirvana is not actually "indeterminate" in the sense
> of "undefinable".  It 
> is precisely defined by the Buddha as "the
> extinction of desire, the 
> extinction of hatred, the extinction of illusion." 
> It's just that this 
> very precise definition does not give any
> descriptive qualities to it.

Earlier you have quoted the Heart Sutra in its
entirety. I presume that, by doing that, you have
tacitly announced that you have read that same sutra.
In it, as you will recall, it is explained that
desire, hatred and illusion are empty, unreal.
Something unreal, that is, unborn, can never become
extinct. Thus, the Buddha's explicit definition using
these concepts was provisionary, makeshift, and
therefore nothing to cling on to.

You'd be much better off relinquishing your tendencies
to grasp after imagined substantiality of nirvana, and
finding final repose in the fact that it is
indeterminate.

Alex


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