Ron Scott wrote:
---
Sophistry? I beg your pardon. Has the Church indicated that
people who believe the courts should decide the matter, as
mandated by the divinely-inspired constitution, are out of step
with the church and its teachings? Please point me to the
statement.
---
Others with better sense than me have identified the way you like to
argue as "sophistry" -- I did not coin the expression.
I can seldom discern from your rhetoric exactly where you stand with
regard to anything "divinely inspired. Whether you are "out of step" is
up to you, but when you seem to be advocating things that are clearly
wrong, I feel prompted to either quit reading your comments, or respond
when they seem to need correction.
As I have observed in previous threads, you often seem to favor a focus
on side issues and exceptions, as if they were the most important
things. Perhaps these positions you seem to admire make for fine
arguments, but they do not generally seem to represent the policy or
position taught by the church.
I cannot believe you when ask for statements that are indicative of
current church policy. You seem less interested in reading them than in
challenging ideas that do not fit your mindset. Nonetheless, for the
sake of discussion, I am copying a few interesting and authoritative
comments. Perhaps you'd care to substantiate your arguments with
supporting material from church leaders and church publications.
----------
The Church in Hawaii�with the support of the Roman Catholic Church in
the state�has taken legal action to support traditional marriage and
prevent state sanctioning of homosexual and lesbian marriages.
The Church's action, taken Feb. 23, is a request to the Circuit Court of
Hawaii for permission to intervene in opposition to an attempt by three
same-gender couples seeking the right to have a legal marriage.
A lawsuit, Baehr v. Lewin, was originally thrown out by the trial court.
The couples appealed, and the Hawaii Supreme Court ruled that state
marriage law discriminates on the basis of sex unless there is a
compelling state interest to deny marriage licenses to homosexual and
lesbian couples. The Supreme Court sent the case back to the Circuit
Court to make that determination.
Under Hawaii law, an entity may intervene in a legal action by proving
that it has substantial interests in the outcome of the case. The trial
is expected to be held in September.
The action by the Church supports the state of Hawaii in seeking to
preserve its law against homosexual and lesbian marriages. If state law
is overturned on this matter, Hawaii would be the first state in the
nation in which that happened.
Donald L. Hallstrom, regional representative in the Oahu Hawaii North
Region, announced the Church's action at a news conference on the day
the request was filed with the court. He was joined by the Rev. Marc R.
Alexander, diocesan theologian for the Hawaii Catholic Conference; Napua
Baker, spokeswoman for the Church in Hawaii; and James M. Sattler, the
attorney who is representing the Church in the case.
"Our purpose and our intention is to be of help and assistance to the
attorney general in defending the existing Hawaii law respecting
marriage," attorney Sattler said, "and our papers are all designed to
put forth the facts and the arguments as to why we should be allowed to
become parties to the case on the same side as the state and to seek to
uphold the existing law."
Elder Hallstrom said the news conference was not a forum "to attack
homosexuals or lesbians."
"The position of the Church . . . on homosexuality is a matter of
record. We are opposed to it on moral grounds. Nevertheless, the Church
has not attempted to oppose basic civil rights for homosexuals or any
other group. This is not our work nor our focus."
He said the Church believes in sexual abstinence before marriage and
total fidelity after marriage, "and we believe marriage should be
between a man and a woman only."
Elder Hallstrom said legalizing same-sex marriage goes far beyond basic
rights for any individual or group.
"There are times when certain moral issues become so compelling that
churches have a duty to make their feelings known," he added. "In rare
cases, they may need to pursue their own constitutional rights to resist
something they feel poses a serious threat to the moral fabric of
society. We have reached such a situation in Hawaii."
The Church is resisting this major change in the law, he said, "because
we feel it represents a threat to families, to our children, and to our
way of life in Hawaii."
He affirmed that the action was taken in consultation with Church
headquarters in Salt Lake City. "While this initiative is our own, we
assure you that we have the approval and support of the Church . . . in
the action we are taking."
The Rev. Alexander said the Roman Catholic Church in Hawaii joins the
LDS Church in opposing legalization of "homosexual marriages."
"The Catholic Church in Hawaii will pursue the same goal through other
means," he added. In response to a question, he explained that the
"other means" would be in the form of a petition to the court to allow
the Catholic Church to participate in the case as amicus curiae or
"friend of the court."
"We have consulted our lawyers, and we believe that this different but
very complementary route will help the case and will help the state in
upholding its position. We believe, therefore, that we're working very
much in concert toward the same end as The Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints."
He said the Hawaii Catholic community numbers about 230,000 members and
has consistently opposed same-sex marriage, although it extends pastoral
love and care to homosexual persons.
"Catholics believe that the union of husband and wife, as intended by
God, is a unique model for human relationships," he said. "Homosexual
unions are, by their very nature, incomplete. They lack both the
complementarity of the sexes and the possibility of cooperative,
life-giving power. Because of the special character of the committed and
enduring man-woman relationship and its important contribution to the
well-being of our communities, society has acknowledged, supported and
extended special benefits to this man-woman relationship through the
institution of marriage. Homosexual unions should not be granted the
same support and recognition because they cannot make the same
contribution to society."
In response to a question, Elder Hallstrom said the LDS and Catholic
churches, as the two largest churches in Hawaii, have united on this
matter because of their common belief in the sanctity of traditional
marriage.
Sister Baker, who serves as vice president for university advancement at
BYU-Hawaii, said society suffers when the traditional, nurturing
environment of a family is eroded.
"Simply put, we do not believe that there is any justification for
dealing another blow to the family by legalizing something which is
presently illegal in every state in the nation," she added.
She cited a poll by The Honolulu Advertiser and television station
KHON-Channel 2 indicating that Hawaiians by 68 percent oppose same-sex
marriages.
"The people recognize that the institution of marriage is based on a
special relationship between men and women," she said. "We are urging
the court to support Hawaii's families and not undermine them by
radically redefining the institution of marriage. We need to protect the
laws of Hawaii so they are respected and recognized by other states, all
of which uphold the same standard of limiting legal marriage to unions
between a man and a woman."
A single parent, Sister Baker said: "We . . . recognize and respect the
growing number of single-parent families in Hawaii. They play a vital
role in raising children. Our objection is to changing the basic
definition of marriage in Hawaii and violating the traditional
partnership of men and women. We believe this is a serious threat to our
values, and it is morally wrong."
(Church Opposes Same-Sex Marriages , LDS Church News, 1995, 03/04/95 .)
Failure in home fosters trends to alternatives
----------
If current levels of divorce, childbearing out of wedlock and family
violence continue, said Lynn D. Wardle, experimentation with alternative
family structures will continue, even increase, in the coming decades.
On March 19, during the World Congress of Families in Prague, Dr.
Wardle, a professor at the J. Reuben Clark Law School at Brigham Young
University rehearsed, then countered, the legal claims for same-sex
marriages. He then concluded: "It is unrealistic to expect any reduction
in the rate or size of the population that sees same-sex unions as an
alternative to traditional marriage and family if the disintegration of
the nuclear family continues at recent rates."
While no state legislature has yet legalized same-sex marriage, Dr.
Wardle said, same-sex marriage is the goal toward which a number of
smaller developments may point, taking what one advocate says are "baby
steps" toward recognizing same-sex unions.
"There is strong support for same-sex marriage in certain subgroups of
society," he explained. Two of the most important are the entertainment
media, where same-sex couples are portrayed in appealing perspectives;
and academic communities, where tolerance of "gay rights" is a litmus
test for academic credibility and where opposition is treated as proof
of narrow-mindedness.
"The bias of the general media and academic communities is significant
because they shape perceptions," he said. "And perception of reality . .
. provides the basis for the setting or reform of public policy.
"The answer," continued Dr. Wardle, "is that heterosexual marriages have
been given special legal preference because they make uniquely valuable
contributions to the state, to society and to individuals.
"Heterosexual marriages have been singled out . . . for preferred status
because they are so important and valuable to society and to the
stability and continuity of the state."
Committed heterosexual marriages, he said, provide the best setting into
which children can be born and reared. Duel-gender parents show children
how to relate to other people, provide the safest and most stable
compassionate unit of society, and offer the most secure setting for the
sharing of social knowledge and skills.
But there is good news despite all of this, he concluded. Never before
have there been more sources of support for marriage, more economic
abundance, education, health and knowledge of how to nurture successful
marriages.
"Claims for same-sex marriage challenge us and our entire generation to
re-examine the importance of the institution of marriage.
"We need that challenge. For too long our societies have taken marriage
and the family for granted. . . . With our blessings comes the
responsibility to defend marriage and the family."
(Failure in Home Fosters Trends To Alternatives , LDS Church News,
1997, 03/29/97 .)
----------
Disintegration of the family decried
Date: 03/29/97
Family law should help bridle the passions of society "that we may be
filled with love," said Elder Bruce C. Hafen at the World Congress of
Families March 22 in the Czech Republic.
Elder Hafen, a member of the Seventy who is a former law professor at
BYU, described recent legal and social changes that "undermine family
members' entire sense of commitment and belonging to each other."
Quoting the prophet Alma of the Book of Mormon, he said, "Bridle all
your passions, that ye may be filled with love." (Alma 38:12.)
Elder Hafen further explained: "Family law traditionally acted as a
bridle on human passions, stating expectations, steering us toward
long-term relationships of loving commitments. Without that bridle, both
our passions and our principles run wild, harming both individuals and
society."
Elder Hafen cited three examples of recent changes that remove this
bridle.
The first example is the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the
Child (CRC), which was adopted by the U.N. General Assembly in 1989 and
has now been adopted by every democratic country but the United States.
This declaration "introduces a new concept of children's rights to
personal autonomy in standards affecting age limits, parental rights and
children's rights to expression, privacy and religion."
Elder Hafen said that claiming young children are already autonomous may
relieve parents of demanding responsibilities, but is actually a
"profound form of child neglect, abandoning children to their rights."
Only when "our children submit to the demanding yoke of both
intellectual and character education can we produce adults capable of
sustaining a democratic society," he said.
The U.N. Childrens Rights Convention shows how "American activists who
failed to persuade U.S. Courts and legislatures have turned to
unsophisticated international forums on 'rights,' trying to establish
radical ideas as global norms."
The second example of "removing the bridle" of law would be same-sex
marriages if legalized, "as is likely" in the state of Hawaii.
"Marriage was not traditionally a private contract, but a very public
act involving three parties�a man, a woman and the society itself,
represented by the state. Law historically gave marriage a preferred
position . . . because it matters so much to society."
He said that "our laws have not only tolerated formal, heterosexual
marriage, they have endorsed and sponsored it" so society could realize
benefits that come from stable marriages.
Although society may tolerate homosexual behavior, the majority oppose
same-sex marriage, he said. "Most people intuitively recognize that if
the law endorses everything it tolerates, we will eventually tolerate
everything and endorse nothing�except tolerance."
A third illustration of removing the legal bridle is today's divorce
law, said Elder Hafen.
He said that U.S. laws now "grant more freedom to terminate a marriage
than the laws of any other Western nation, with devastating effects on
children."
Judges presiding over divorces in America, he said, "value the right to
be left alone more than the right to be together."
Noting that 20 states are now considering legal reforms intended to help
people take their marriages more seriously, Elder Hafen said law should
"re-establish society's expectations about the commitments family
members make to one another."
He said the public nature of marriage and society's great stake in
children are what distinguish marriage from all other relationships and
contracts.
"Law must unapologetically define the family, marriage, and child-parent
ties in a familistic entity that expresses community interests as well
as individual needs. . . . The long-term interests of both our children
and our society depend on healthy child development."
He concluded: "Bridled love passionately nourishes families, while
unbridled passion destroys families."
(Disintegration of the Family Decried , LDS Church News, 1997, 03/29/97
.)
----------
Prophets of God have repeatedly taught through the ages that practices
of homosexual relations, fornication, and adultery are grievous sins.
Sexual relations outside the bonds of marriage are forbidden by the
Lord. We reaffirm those teachings. . . .
The Lord has proclaimed that marriage between a man and a woman is
ordained of God and is intended to be an eternal relationship bonded by
trust and fidelity. Latter-day Saints, of all people, should marry with
this sacred objective in mind. Marriage should not be viewed as a
therapeutic step to solve problems such as homosexual inclinations or
practices, which first should clearly be overcome with a firm and fixed
determination never to slip to such practices again.
Having said this, I desire now to say with emphasis that our concern for
the bitter fruit of sin is coupled with Christlike sympathy for its
victims, innocent or culpable. We advocate the example of the Lord, who
condemned the sin, yet loved the sinner. We should reach out with
kindness and comfort to the afflicted, ministering to their needs and
assisting them with their problems. We repeat, however, that the way of
safety and the road to happiness lie in abstinence before marriage and
fidelity following marriage. ("Reverence and Morality," Ensign, May
1987, pp. 46-47.)
(Gordon B. Hinckley, Teachings of Gordon B. Hinckley [Salt Lake City:
Deseret Book Co., 1997], 9.)
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