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On Wednesday 21 April 2004 11:53, Andre Meyer is believed to have said:
> Well, Maik has more than a bad day. In fact, he is rather right about
> the points he raises!
> I have been developing for Zope for about half a year now and it took
> considerable effort to get anything going. I have experience with
> filesystem-based Zope 2 products, Plone and Archteypes and a bit of Zope
> 3. While Z3 looks promising it is not likely to just take over Z2. It is
> too much different. The biggest problem, however is the lack of (any
> useful) documentation and sample code. Without the help of the mailing
> lists you cannot get far with Zope.

I don't agree. 
I am new to zope. So I tried zope2 first, because plone had a lot of appeal.
I got discouraged very quickly, because zope2 is so very grown over a time 
it's hard to join later.

Zope3 seemed quite well documented and I had no problems going on on my own.
( There is a tutorial, a cookbook, and an online apidoc )

I can say nothing however to migrating apps from zope2 to zope3.

> With respect to CMS, Plone archetypes are too simplistic for complex
> data/document types and customisation takes too much effort.
> Do not get me wrong! I decided to use Zope because it fits my bill and I
> am willing to invest more time in Python/Zope/Plone, because I like it a
> lot (*). But be aware of J2EE/.Net, especially after the Sun/M$
> agreement. I have been a Java developer for years and I know that there
> are a lot of (commercial) parties to develop whatever anyone needs, if
> you pay them. The same must be true of .Net.

Right, I am developing Java applications for a living as well.
I have been focused on consultancy work recently ( writing tech-specifications 
and projectmanaging for a really big publishing company ) and I think Zope / 
python has a good potential for use in commercial apps/systems.

I have had to work with some premium CMSes and some of them really suck.
I'd swap it gladly.

> A good IDE for Python/Zope with support for application patterns, UML,
> etc. would be a good thing. Real application development is a serious
> business and good tools are essential, just like deadlines and
> milestones for new releases and up-to-date documentation. I am currently
> using Eclipse with PyDev, but it has a long way to go until it offers
> the wealth of support that Eclipse offers for Java. Boa Constructor is a
> good try, too.

I tried Eclipse, but its so slow. 

> This is meant to encourage everybody, I am an optimist ;-) Beware of the
> pragmatic commercial developers.

As to be pragmatic: It is easier and faster to write a functionality in python 
than in java and thus cheaper.

I say : beware of the Marketing.

We had to migrate a banking system from a corba/c++ system to J2EE during the 
last phase of the project, because the customer had heard of 'this J thing 
everyone is using'.


> (*) fyi http://zope.org/Members/drapmeyer/spyse
> Chris Withers wrote:
> > Martin Kretschmar wrote:
> >> Maik Jablonski of the german speaking Zope Users Group
> >> DZUG issued a pretty bleak outlook for the future of
> >> Zope. What are your oppinions?
> >
> > Maik's having a bad day, he'll get over it ;-)
> >
> > Chris

- -- 

Eckart Hertzler

Senior Consultant
G+J Electronic Media Services GmbH
20457 Hamburg
Tel. : +49 40 3703 7591
Fax  : +49 40 3703 - 5792
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