On 25 Jan 2007, at 23:13 , whit wrote:
The point is that buildout *already* handles eggs. There's really no point for having an extra layer on top of buildout. The zc.recipe.egg recipe can install any egg (as a development one or not) in an automated fashion, which is exactly what you'd want from a buildout.

well that's awesome that buildout has duplicated this effort....

It didn't. buildout interfaces with setuptools and easy_install to do its job. The stuff buildout adds is the recipe abstraction so that the installation can be automated over and over again.

the "source bin/activate" dance is the only thing I see being a detriment here(and with the latest workingenv, your shell prompt lets
you know you are in an env).

Not everybody likes the activate dance. With buildout, you don't need it. The recipes make sure that the scripts that get installed into the buildout's 'bin' directory have the right PYTHONPATH set and have access to the eggs you requested for the buildout.
is there really a difference between zopectl and source bin/ activate? I guess the main difference here is where PYTHONPATH gets set and how people work with it. for example, if you just start python and want to play with code.... sounds like with zc.buildout you are out of luck for things installed in the buildout.

Possibly, yeah. That's one thing I like about workingenv...

In our situation, we might have multiple versions of software running on different processes started in different workingenv (often not even using zope). being able to contextualize the python path is a useful development tool; this is understandable for buildout to avoid(as a deployment tool), but if we are considering using buildout as a prescribed way for people to manage their development environments, it seems lacking.

You're right, this might just be one of buildout's sore spots, though one that could potentially be fixed. I wonder what it'd take to produce a buildout recipe that added an "activate" script like the one workingenv has... it seems almost trivial.

Workingenv made it more complex than it needed to be (or buildout did, depending on which perspective you look at it from). I believe Hanno wanted to rescue the recipe in case others found it useful, but it's not used for now.

what about if I'm already using workingenv... and want to use zope or plone in my workingenv?

I see no problem with that. zc.buildout is one way of deploying Python software like Zope. As long as you've got eggs, you could install them manually into your workingenv just fine. buildout just does it an automated fashion (and, of course, it can do more than just installing eggs).

which I could automate in my env (workingenv takes recipes also). for that matter, eggs automate the installation of eggs...

Yup, you're right. Note that buildout does more than just installing eggs, though. It can automate potentially anything). I find the zc.recipe.cmmi recipe quite powerful, it can build any Unixy software (e.g. Python, libxml, ...) using "configure; make; make install".

I'm not sure what it would take to make buildout just automate install eggs into my env... but not putting them in special directories would be a start.

As said, I agree.

currently, I don't see an easy way to use buildouts inside a workingenv, whereas the rest of python world works great. I will have alot of trouble explaining to my developer who already think zope smells that they have to change the way they work to use zc.buildout recipes.

for example, I can't use the deliverance or lxml buildout with an existing topp.deploy workingenv because of buildout's arbitrary egg handling scheme. If zc.buildout didn't try to do so much, the python would be installed transparently like everything else I easy_install.

I'm not too fond of zc.buildout's directory scheme eiher. In particular, I wish that it would use 'lib/python' instead of 'eggs' and 'src' instead of 'develop-eggs'. I don't know enough zc.buildout details to be able to say whether that can be chagned by remimplementing the egg installation recipe. I would sure hope it is.

this may be all that is required to make the two play well together (or have buildout respect an existing workingenv when doing it's local install of eggs). Maybe it's just a matter of zc.buildout seeing workingenv is in effect and not composing special pythonpaths.

harmony is my interest here. workingenv is pretty low-level and works hard to work well with python. there is no reason that zc.buildout should have a problem with that.. it just needs to do less when appropriate.

Well, it seems they already can work together, given Hanno's implementation for a workingenv recipe. The question is whether it makes sense. If you're primiarly interested in the automated installation of eggs, it seems workingenv is just another unnecessary layer (or buidout, whichever way you see it).

as stated before, I don't mind using zc.buildout, but I don't want to have to learn zc.buildout to use it meaningfully in my existing setup. If a buildout recipes could be executed by themselves(like buildout-zope2, buildout-deliverance, buildout- squid) as well as by aggregated recipes. This would make buildout a killer tool inside my workingenv rather than a choice I had to make between two technologies.

As said already, I think once you've got buildout, there's no need for workingen, except if you think that "Zope stinks" ;)

ooooooh philip...

you're drawing my ire for taking a stereotypical stone-age isolationist zope developer attitude toward the rest of the world. shame on you(though I don't think you really mean this. so take this as feedback).

No I didn't mean it. Perhaps adding that little tongue-in-cheek there was a mistake, I certainly didn't want to cause a rant there...

I spoke from a technical point of view, based on the fact that workingenv and buildout have a lot of common features. Using both at the same time seems like double trouble to me (adding unnecessary layers, etc.). Perhaps it isn't, perhaps it makes total sense (you certainly seem to have a point with the Python interpreter). All I wanted to say is that if you guys get good mileage out of workingenv, I think you should keep using it. Why couldn't Plone be deployable in either a workingenv setup or a buildout? I don't think we ever have to make an exclusive decision for either one.

As for kool aids and smelly things, the general reaction I get from people I show workingenv to is mixed as well (I quite like it myself and am more familiar with it than buildout). Not everyone likes the bin/activiate script and the prompt maniuplation either. Yes, workingenv might be lighter on the kool-aid, but it's not like zc.buildout is a big pile of magic, either. And in particular, I don't think zc.buildout tears down a lot of bridges. In fact, a lot of the things I see in it seem like they were done the way they are done in order to use existing bridges (eggs, Unixy applications, heck even using ConfigParser instead of ZConfig...)

As a pure *consumer* of both workingenv and zc.buildout, I haven't yet reached the zen that I'd like to have to suggest the best way toward harmony, but I would love to discuss ideas at the Camp5 sprint.


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