Alex Clark wrote:
> On 2010-05-03, Wichert Akkerman <> wrote:
>> On 5/3/10 15:41 , Martijn Faassen wrote:
>>> Lennart Regebro wrote:
>>>> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 13:22, Martijn Faassen<>  
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Wichert Akkerman wrote:
>> If we're going to make cheap shots: that's still a lot faster than the 
>> grok release cycle.
> Guys, please, this is like watching your parents fight ;-) Can't we all just
> get along? :-) 

I can't. I think I've contributed a lot to this community, I've tried to 
be fair and work out differences and make compromises. It wasn't easy. 
You'd think it'd get you some respect and trust. Then, when it came down 
to it, instead of respect, trust and a willingness to cooperate (and 
yes, I think I've tried to do all of that myself; I don't think I'm a 
hypocrite on this), I got a fork. Thanks guys.

So I stepped down, as obviously people weren't willing to work with me. 
I tried to stay out of zope-dev for the last 4 months, as it just gets 
on my nerves now.

But the fork continues. I see it in the checkins messages. It's causing 
me extra things to worry about - the new releases don't get tested with 
all the libraries in the ZTK, and I use other libraries in the ZTK. It's 
just so stupid, too. So unnecessary and counterproductive.

But like it or not (I don't really like it much right now, to be 
honest), I still a user of the ZTK. I contribute to it. So I think that 
means I get to make suggestions and complain when I want to. That's how 
it works in an open source project. The leadership, whoever they are, 
will just have to deal with it. But forgive me when I don't feel 
particularly inclined to spare anyone's feelings. Even when I was trying 
to do that, I think I stepped on enough toes anyway, so why bother?

> As someone looking in from the outside (Plone), and hoping
> to become more active in the Zope community in the future, I
> wonder what it's going to take to restore some harmony and 
> direction in here? It seems like I've been reading various
> flames for months now.

I don't know. It'd help if people tried to work with each other instead 
and give each other a bit of credit, instead of fork or do whatever 
Wichert did in this thread (yeah, I know I'm in this thread too and 
doing the wrong stuff too. But Wichert, you're just not being 
constructive at all here, sorry). But I tried that and it didn't really 
work, so I am trying something else. That is, I think it *did* work (the 
ZTK is there, it's made a lot of progress), but it didn't work for *me*.

> To put things in perspective, for folks in here who may be "too close to it",
> the Zope ecosystem is *really* starting to shape up IMO (i.e. leaving the
> Zope 3 confusion in the past, etc.). I think I understand it now (after years
> of study), and can actually explain it to others! So let's try to keep up the 
> *great* work and let the "little things" slideā€¦

It's not been a little thing to me, sorry. It felt like a big thing that 
didn't slide off but steamrollered over me. I now have four months 
distance from it and I'm still wounded by it.

Sure, there are a lot of good things going on. I think it's great what 
BlueBream is up to. And Hanno's doing all kinds of good work; I'm happy 
to acknowledge that. And last week we finally decoupled Grok from most 
of the* packages. I'm pretty happy about that, too.

But as a group we aren't very good at treating people who attempt to 
lead for the good of the group. And seriously, you can't replace 
leadership with bureaucracy and do as well.



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