On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 11:04:12PM +0100, Mark Barratt wrote:
> John Poltorak wrote:
> > I was on a course over the weekend where ordinary people in their 70's
> > with no technical ability were knocking together websites in just a few
> > hours with no prior training and no understanding of the
> > underlying concepts involved. Why should Zope be just as easy?
> Because Zope is hard. You can make some great sites/applications with
> Zope but for all except the very simplest you need
> . advanced understanding of html and xml
> . a thorough grounding in programming principles
> . a working knowledge of Python
> - and preferably all three.
Whilst Zope can be used for developing extremely complex sites, that
shouldn't preclude it as a development tool for simple sites. I think
expertise only develops through extended usage of Zope, but there is just
so much to learn, although I don't see a need to be an expert in numerous
fields before touching Zope.
> Most (not all) of the people who hang out here have all three of these
> skill sets, and like many skilled people, they find it hard to
> understand that the skills they have seem arcane to beginners. You
> should also understand that nobody (AFAIK) is 'them' with an interest in
> making Zope easy and helping you. You depend on the kindness of
> strangers, so politeness and gratitude pay.
Yes, I am aware of this. I also think that this list is not really
appropriate for newbies, but in the absence of an alternative, this is
where I ask my newbie questions.
> In addition, Zope is heading fast into even less friendly territory.
> DTML, which is technically 'mucky' but reasonably easy to grasp for
> non-programmers, is increasingly deprecated. Through-the-web editing
> likewise. I'm not saying these trends are bad, just that they are
> happening, they make the learning curve steeper, and that they lock out
> almost all casual users unless they have the skills noted above.
> The alternative in the Zope world is Plone, where you can get a site up
> and rolling in very little time (as long as you are happy for it to look
> and operate like almost every other Plone site on the planet).
I looked at Plone but it is way too slow for the server I'm using. Besides
that customisation looks like another learning cliff.
> or there's PHP, where the communities are probably more newbie-friendly
> and there are loads of tutorials.
I'm sufficiently aware of Zope to know it provides a far more
comprehensive build environment than PHP ever will and I would like to
adopt it as my platform of choice, but it would be nice if the ZOPE
support community was as newbie-friendly as the PHP crowd. Loads of
tutorials and worked examples would be nice too. Reading a manual is no
substitute for being shown how to build a web page using ZOPE and just
reading through dozens of isolated examples of ZPT techniques makes
progress very slow. I would much rather see a tutorial which starts of
with a relatively complex but easily reproducible template which creates
an interesting page, but then proceeds to de-construct what it does and
how it does it.
> or you could decide that Zope does some stuff which you must have, in
> which case David H's stereotypical response
> > If you spent more time just *learning* Zope and HTML, etc and less time
> > rationalizing your lack of progress everyone would be happy.
> is appropriate.
I only need to rationlise it when people constantly keep telling me to
read the Zope Book as if that is the solution to everything. Fortunately
there are a few people here who can still remember suffering the same
plight as I am currently in an I'm grateful to them for their help.
> Good luck.
> Mark Barratt
> Text Matters
> Information design: we help explain things using
> language | design | systems | process improvement
> phone +44 (0)118 986 8313 email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> skype mark_barratt web http://www.textmatters.com
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