The BMW UUC Digest Volume 2 : Issue 758 : "text" Format Messages in this Issue: Re: <E36> behind-the-dash gurgle? Re: <E36> behind-the-dash gurgle? Re: <E36> behind-the-dash gurgle? Re: <E36> behind-the-dash gurgle? Re: <E36> behind-the-dash gurgle? Re: <E36> behind-the-dash gurgle? Re: <E36> behind-the-dash gurgle? Re: <E36> behind-the-dash gurgle? mystery CE light, its out again, take 2 Re: mystery CE light, its out again, take 2 Re: mystery CE light, its out again, take 2 Re: mystery CE light, its out again, take 2
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 06:57:46 -0400 From: "Dean Boucouras" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com> Subject: Re: <E36> behind-the-dash gurgle? Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Maybe it is a stepper motor? Dean ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 10:15:10 -0700 From: JKerouac <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Dean Boucouras <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com Subject: Re: <E36> behind-the-dash gurgle? Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sounds can be deceiving. Mid and low frequencies are less directional and than higher ones and sometimes deceptive (why subwoofer placement matter less than where the tweeters are) A mechanic's stethoscope of a drinking straw held up to the ear might help pinpoint the source. Barry Dean Boucouras wrote: > Maybe it is a stepper motor? > Dean ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 09:30:25 -0500 (CDT) From: "Kevin Jay (Mr.Fabulous)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com Subject: Re: <E36> behind-the-dash gurgle? Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> No battery, no gurgle Pulled the instrument cluster half-way out (didn't disconnect anything), noise most certainly is comming from here. Sounds mechanical... sort of like noisy gears meshing? Not sure I could get the connectors back on without yanking the steering wheel, not interested in doing that (yet), so the cluster remains in the car. But it looks like the cluster would slide out with the wheel still in place, yes? Cluster seems to be working just fine. Self-test procedure seems OK as well, and produces the following numbers: 1 - 364386 2 - 00000 3 - 7504 4 - 02666 5 - 200 6 - 88 No clue what this means... but ultimately, the cluster seems to be working. But what is this darn noise? Anybody? - k --- original message --- From: "Marco Romani" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: <E36> behind-the-dash gurgle? disconnect the battery and let us know if it's still gurgling. If it is I'd call an exterminator. Or maybe a priest. ----- original, Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [UUC] <E36> behind-the-dash gurgle? Got this bizzare noise coming from (what sounds like) behind my instrument cluster. Sort of a gurgle. Not periodic, but always there. [ snip ] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 10:04:21 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com Subject: Re: <E36> behind-the-dash gurgle? Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Air in the cooling system? -Kevin ---------------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail communication is confidential and is intended only for the individual(s) or entity named above and others who have been specifically authorized to receive it. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not read, copy, use or disclose the contents of this communication to others. Please notify the sender that you have received this e-mail in error by replying to the e-mail. Please then delete the e-mail and any copies of it. Thank you. ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 08:00:49 -0700 From: "Marco Romani" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com> Subject: Re: <E36> behind-the-dash gurgle? Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> so at least the car isn't possessed. yes you can pull the instrument cluster out with the wheel in place, at least I can, but I have a tilt wheel. I can't imagine what would be making a gurgling noise in the actual instrument cluster. My speedo would make a bit of a grinding noise on cold days but only when moving. there are a bunch of stepper motors for the climate control in the dash. Many work even after the ignition is off, however I don't remember them making noise before I put the key in the ignition. Usually they quiet down after a few minutes. If you have a manual see if you can find the fuses for the a/c and climate control and pull them. See if the gurgle stops. I'd love to hear what it really sounds like. Marco -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Kevin Jay (Mr.Fabulous) Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:30 AM To: bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com Subject: Re: [UUC] <E36> behind-the-dash gurgle? No battery, no gurgle Pulled the instrument cluster half-way out (didn't disconnect anything), noise most certainly is comming from here. Sounds mechanical... sort of like noisy gears meshing? Not sure I could get the connectors back on without yanking the steering wheel, not interested in doing that (yet), so the cluster remains in the car. But it looks like the cluster would slide out with the wheel still in place, yes? Cluster seems to be working just fine. Self-test procedure seems OK as well, and produces the following numbers: 1 - 364386 2 - 00000 3 - 7504 4 - 02666 5 - 200 6 - 88 No clue what this means... but ultimately, the cluster seems to be working. But what is this darn noise? Anybody? - k --- original message --- From: "Marco Romani" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: <E36> behind-the-dash gurgle? disconnect the battery and let us know if it's still gurgling. If it is I'd call an exterminator. Or maybe a priest. ----- original, Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [UUC] <E36> behind-the-dash gurgle? Got this bizzare noise coming from (what sounds like) behind my instrument cluster. Sort of a gurgle. Not periodic, but always there. [ snip ] Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com __________________________________________________________________________ In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 14:28:19 -0500 (CDT) From: "Kevin Jay (Mr.Fabulous)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com Subject: Re: <E36> behind-the-dash gurgle? Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Something in the cluster is doing this. Occaisionally, it stops... and clicks when it stops. And then clicks when it starts up again. Almost like a relay on the way out? And it seems to be getting louder. Cluster is still working, though. So I have the dumb thing on the desk in front of me as I type this. In two halves (heck, if it's going to need to be replaced, I have nothing to loose by taking it apart :). The way this all fits together is a thing of beauty. Wow, I can't wait to find out what it'll cost to replace this, yeeeeeesh. Can't find any relays here, nothing that would sing like this. Maybe it's the crystal in the odometer/service indicator? Hard to say... but there's probably nothing here I can service anyway. Damn it. Guess I'll drive it until it stops working. Assuming I can get it back together and back in the car, that is. Hope it doesn't catch on fire. So I suppose I need to see a dealer to get a replacement? I find notes on Richard Nott's site that talk to BMW programming the right VIN into a new cluster and then same reading the correct mileage out of some other off-board storage somewhere else in the car? Is that how this works? BMW programs in my VIN, sends me a cluster with 00000 miles on the odometer, and the cluster reads its mileage out of some other store in the car? - k On Tue, 2 Aug 2005, Kevin Jay (Mr.Fabulous) wrote: > > No battery, no gurgle > > Pulled the instrument cluster half-way out (didn't disconnect anything), noise > most certainly is comming from here. Sounds mechanical... sort of like noisy > gears meshing? Not sure I could get the connectors back on without yanking > the steering wheel, not interested in doing that (yet), so the cluster remains > in the car. But it looks like the cluster would slide out with the wheel > still in place, yes? > > Cluster seems to be working just fine. Self-test procedure seems OK as well, > and produces the following numbers: > > 1 - 364386 > 2 - 00000 > 3 - 7504 > 4 - 02666 > 5 - 200 > 6 - 88 > > No clue what this means... but ultimately, the cluster seems to be working. > > But what is this darn noise? Anybody? > > - k > > --- original message --- > > From: "Marco Romani" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: <E36> behind-the-dash gurgle? > > disconnect the battery and let us know if it's still gurgling. If it is I'd > call an exterminator. Or maybe a priest. > > ----- original, Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [UUC] <E36> behind-the-dash gurgle? > > Got this bizzare noise coming from (what sounds like) behind my instrument > cluster. Sort of a gurgle. Not periodic, but always there. > [ snip ] > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 13:19:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Ruiz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: UUC Digest <bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com> Subject: Re: <E36> behind-the-dash gurgle? Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Kevin, Not sure about OBDII procedure, but in my old 93 325, the cluster had gone out and read "PPPPPP". I drove it for about 1.5k miles before I finally replaced the cluster. I had to purchase a new cluster and a new coding plug (an additional $100 something). This was sent to BMW with a sheet recording the approximate mileage the display read before going out, then BMW programmed the mileage into the plug, and then inserted it in the cluster. I was under the impression as you are about the mileage being stored in a secondary data store elsewhere in the car (hence the red dot thingy in the odometer display to claim mileage discrepancy between the odometer store and this secondary store), but when I had gone to the dealer to get this all straightened out, I was advised this wasn't true. Not to say it's not for later model year cars, however. YMMV, HTH, Brian 95 M3 (that just got rear ended this morning at low speed >:-0 GRRR! ) --- "Kevin Jay (Mr.Fabulous)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Something in the cluster is doing this. > Occaisionally, it stops... and clicks > when it stops. And then clicks when it starts up > again. Almost like a relay > on the way out? And it seems to be getting louder. > Cluster is still working, > though. > > So I have the dumb thing on the desk in front of me > as I type this. In two > halves (heck, if it's going to need to be replaced, > I have nothing to loose by > taking it apart :). The way this all fits together > is a thing of beauty. > Wow, I can't wait to find out what it'll cost to > replace this, yeeeeeesh. > > Can't find any relays here, nothing that would sing > like this. Maybe it's the > crystal in the odometer/service indicator? Hard to > say... but there's > probably nothing here I can service anyway. Damn > it. Guess I'll drive it > until it stops working. Assuming I can get it back > together and back in the > car, that is. Hope it doesn't catch on fire. > > So I suppose I need to see a dealer to get a > replacement? I find notes on > Richard Nott's site that talk to BMW programming the > right VIN into a new > cluster and then same reading the correct mileage > out of some other off-board > storage somewhere else in the car? Is that how this > works? BMW programs in > my VIN, sends me a cluster with 00000 miles on the > odometer, and the cluster > reads its mileage out of some other store in the > car? > > - k > > On Tue, 2 Aug 2005, Kevin Jay (Mr.Fabulous) wrote: > > > > No battery, no gurgle > > > > Pulled the instrument cluster half-way out (didn't > disconnect anything), noise > > most certainly is comming from here. Sounds > mechanical... sort of like noisy > > gears meshing? Not sure I could get the > connectors back on without yanking > > the steering wheel, not interested in doing that > (yet), so the cluster remains > > in the car. But it looks like the cluster would > slide out with the wheel > > still in place, yes? > > > > Cluster seems to be working just fine. Self-test > procedure seems OK as well, > > and produces the following numbers: > > > > 1 - 364386 > > 2 - 00000 > > 3 - 7504 > > 4 - 02666 > > 5 - 200 > > 6 - 88 > > > > No clue what this means... but ultimately, the > cluster seems to be working. > > > > But what is this darn noise? Anybody? > > > > - k > > > > --- original message --- > > > > From: "Marco Romani" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: Re: <E36> behind-the-dash gurgle? > > > > disconnect the battery and let us know if it's > still gurgling. If it is I'd > > call an exterminator. Or maybe a priest. > > > > ----- original, Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: [UUC] <E36> behind-the-dash gurgle? > > > > Got this bizzare noise coming from (what sounds > like) behind my instrument > > cluster. Sort of a gurgle. Not periodic, but > always there. > > [ snip ] > > > > > > Search the > ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com > > > __________________________________________________________________________ > In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, > founder of the BMW CCA. > > UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and > home of the Ultimate > Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! > 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:02:16 -0500 From: Jamie Howton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Brian Ruiz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: UUC Digest <bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com> Subject: Re: <E36> behind-the-dash gurgle? Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> When I had mine replaced, the price was $900 at the dealer not including coding/programming. I couldn't wait the 6 weeks for the mileage programming in NJ so they installed it with 0 miles and put a sticker on the doorjamb indicating the mileage that it was changed out. The not so funny part of the story is that there was nothing wrong with my old cluster, my DME was bad causing the Tachometer/Coolant Temp gauge and MPG gauge not to work. I bought a used DME from a listmember, plugged it in and have been fine ever since. Prior to mid 95 MY, the mileage was hard coded into the cluster. Mid-year 95, they added a coding plug which is inserted into a connector on the back of the cluster motherboard. If you have the coding plug you can just remove it from the old cluster, insert it into the new one and the mileage is transferred. You only need to buy a new coding plug if you don't have one in your current cluster. The cluster still needs programming at the dealer after being installed in your car, but that is not mileage related. Given the price, I wouldn't think it worth it to change the cluster out unless it stops working. Or look for a used one on fleabay, that's where I ended up selling my old one. Regards -- Jamie Howton 2000 M5 1995 M3 Hampshire, IL ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 11:12:02 -0700 From: JKerouac <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "[uucdigest]" <bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com> Subject: mystery CE light, its out again, take 2 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Can low cooling system pressure or a leak cause a CE light? Can Redline SL1 cause a borderline CE light to extinguish? Can heavily hosing down the engine and undercarriage have gotten water in somewhere to trip a fault which required so many miles without it reoccuring for the CE to go out? Why I ask these questions: Recently I posted a question if Redline SL1 could be the cause of a CE light going out when there had been an O2 sensor CE previously. The light, I had believed, was a result of testing performance mods, but the engine s/w not being able to run lean enough at low throttle cruising speeds on hot days. With the stock airbox, that reason probably was true. First, the CE stopped happening after installing a developmental airbox. After a few tanks the CE came back on with no obvious cause. Later I realized the recurrence of the CE coincided with running out of SL1 and not getting more for a few months. Thinking back on this, that also coincided with when a mystery colant leak started. Then after getting SL1 again, the CE went out in a few miles. So I drove out that tank. After a couple more tanks without SL1 the CE came back. BUT, that coincided with a thorough car, undercarriage, and engine washing and hosing. So I wondered if heavy hose water pressure around the downpipes and O2 sensors could have somehow caused the light to recur. Still unlikely, like the rest of this whole CE scenario. Over the next tank without Redline, the CE came back on. I added SL1 again. Before I could drive half a tank, the engine got another heavy hosing down, this time after the water pump said goodbye with a flurry of fresh anti-freeze after I installed a new S54 radiator, cooler thermostat, and 1.5 gallons of coolant to the system. Previously there was 1/2 gallon coolant and two bottles of Water Wetter. Seems the stronger concentration was more slippery enough than the weak mix to seep through the water pump seal more easily. It was strange to see that after continually topping up the system with water as it leaked, eventually with mostly straight water the leak again was only a slight dribble. Now with the the new water pump (solid brass impeller style), and SL1 in the tank again, the CE has gone out. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 15:02:42 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "JKerouac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "[uucdigest]" <bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com> Subject: Re: mystery CE light, its out again, take 2 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Correlation does not infer causality. Dousing EGO sensors can cause failure. I would run my car on gasoline and use coolant in the cooling system. Oxygen sensors are only good to about 50 to 80,000 miles, even if there is no check engine light. What is wrong with the original airbox? Gary Derian > Can low cooling system pressure or a leak cause a CE light? > Can Redline SL1 cause a borderline CE light to extinguish? > Can heavily hosing down the engine and undercarriage have gotten water in > somewhere to trip a fault which required so many miles without it > reoccuring for the CE to go out? > > Why I ask these questions: > > Recently I posted a question if Redline SL1 could be the cause of a CE > light going out when there had been an O2 sensor CE previously. > The light, I had believed, was a result of testing performance mods, but > the engine s/w not being able to run lean enough at low throttle cruising > speeds on hot days. With the stock airbox, that reason probably was true. > First, the CE stopped happening after installing a developmental > airbox. After a few tanks the CE came back on with no obvious cause. > Later I realized the recurrence of the CE coincided with running out of > SL1 and not getting more for a few months. Thinking back on this, that > also coincided with when a mystery colant leak started. Then after > getting SL1 again, the CE went out in a few miles. > So I drove out that tank. After a couple more tanks without SL1 the CE > came back. BUT, that coincided with a thorough car, undercarriage, and > engine washing and hosing. So I wondered if heavy hose water pressure > around the downpipes and O2 sensors could have somehow caused the light to > recur. Still unlikely, like the rest of this whole CE scenario. > Over the next tank without Redline, the CE came back on. I added SL1 > again. Before I could drive half a tank, the engine got another heavy > hosing down, this time after the water pump said goodbye with a flurry of > fresh anti-freeze after I installed a new S54 radiator, cooler thermostat, > and 1.5 gallons of coolant to the system. Previously there was 1/2 gallon > coolant and two bottles of Water Wetter. Seems the stronger concentration > was more slippery enough than the weak mix to seep through the water pump > seal more easily. It was strange to see that after continually topping up > the system with water as it leaked, eventually with mostly straight water > the leak again was only a slight dribble. > Now with the the new water pump (solid brass impeller style), and SL1 > in the tank again, the CE has gone out. > Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com > > > __________________________________________________________________________ > In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. > > UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate > Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! > 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 12:41:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Richard Dorffer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com Subject: Re: mystery CE light, its out again, take 2 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Correct me if I am wrong, but don't you have a modified and larger intake, modified and larger adjustable fuel pressure regulator, bypassed fuel pressure check valve and sensor and 24# injectors? Personally, I would be looking at some of those things as the reason you have an on/off CE light. Regards, Rich --- JKerouac <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Can low cooling system pressure or a leak cause a CE light? > Can Redline SL1 cause a borderline CE light to extinguish? > Can heavily hosing down the engine and undercarriage have gotten water > in somewhere to trip a fault which required so many miles without it > reoccuring for the CE to go out? > > Why I ask these questions: > > Recently I posted a question if Redline SL1 could be the cause of a > CE light going out when there had been an O2 sensor CE previously. > The light, I had believed, was a result of testing performance mods, but > the engine s/w not being able to run lean enough at low throttle > cruising speeds on hot days. With the stock airbox, that reason > probably was true. > First, the CE stopped happening after installing a developmental > airbox. After a few tanks the CE came back on with no obvious cause. > Later I realized the recurrence of the CE coincided with running out of > SL1 and not getting more for a few months. Thinking back on this, that > also coincided with when a mystery colant leak started. Then after > getting SL1 again, the CE went out in a few miles. > So I drove out that tank. After a couple more tanks without SL1 the > CE came back. BUT, that coincided with a thorough car, undercarriage, > and engine washing and hosing. So I wondered if heavy hose water > pressure around the downpipes and O2 sensors could have somehow caused > the light to recur. Still unlikely, like the rest of this whole CE > scenario. > Over the next tank without Redline, the CE came back on. I added > SL1 again. Before I could drive half a tank, the engine got another > heavy hosing down, this time after the water pump said goodbye with a > flurry of fresh anti-freeze after I installed a new S54 radiator, cooler > thermostat, and 1.5 gallons of coolant to the system. Previously there > was 1/2 gallon coolant and two bottles of Water Wetter. Seems the > stronger concentration was more slippery enough than the weak mix to > seep through the water pump seal more easily. It was strange to see > that after continually topping up the system with water as it leaked, > eventually with mostly straight water the leak again was only a slight > dribble. > Now with the the new water pump (solid brass impeller style), and > SL1 in the tank again, the CE has gone out. > Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com > > > __________________________________________________________________________ > In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. > > UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate > Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! > 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 14:13:07 -0700 From: JKerouac <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Richard Dorffer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "[uucdigest]" <bmwuucdigest@uucdigest.com>, Gary Derian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: mystery CE light, its out again, take 2 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Rich & Gary, 24# injectors, adjustable fpr, larger MAF tube with stock sensor. With a few dyno $essions, and a developmental airbox someone interested in my project sent me to try, I arrived at a lower fuel pressure that, with that airbox, gave a flatter than expected air/fuel curve, 5 more hp, and no CE lights. The flaws with the stock airbox sans air silencer horn were that the air/fuel curve, and consequently the torque curve, was jumpy, and that the outlet hole was still only 3" while the inlet to my tube is3 1/4". One design goal of that airbox is to provide a very smooth air flow across the rev range, whereas one flaw of many CAIs is that they can be peaky and have resonances which need the s/w to compensate for them. It was baffling initially when the CE returned. Now in knowing now that there was a cooling system leak, and connecting the possibility of an O2 sensor fault from hosing out the engine compartment, it seems that dialing in the mixture via the airbox and fuel pressure to even out of the air/fuel curve might have solved the CE problem. I'm going to stop using the Redline and see what happens. Barry Richard Dorffer wrote: >Correct me if I am wrong, but don't you have a modified and larger intake, >modified and larger >adjustable fuel pressure regulator, bypassed fuel pressure check valve and >sensor and 24# >injectors? Personally, I would be looking at some of those things as the >reason you have an >on/off CE light. >Regards, >Rich > >--- JKerouac <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>Can low cooling system pressure or a leak cause a CE light? >>Can Redline SL1 cause a borderline CE light to extinguish? >>Can heavily hosing down the engine and undercarriage have gotten water >>in somewhere to trip a fault which required so many miles without it >>reoccuring for the CE to go out? >>Why I ask these questions: >> Recently >> ------------------------------ End of [bmwuucdigest] digest(12 messages) **********
