My view based on what a few astronomers have written, is that we are not yet at the level of placing enough detectors aka telescopes around the solar system, the Oort cloud-Kuiper Belt to detect even big things like Dyson's Spheres. If one goes by why would our kiddies' built it, I'd go with the speculation of yes more room for humans, fauna and flora, yes,, an energy catcher, solar, but also I will throw in the a Dyson sphere as a resurrection machine. It'd take lots and lots of electrical power! Yeah this again. Dyson spheres: The key to resurrection and immortality? - Big Think Primo motivation there, young fella! I am betting we now would have trouble identifying a sphere. We are just getting good at the telescope engineering, and we have not even built a telescope farm on the Lunar far side yet!
-----Original Message----- From: John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com> To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Fri, Apr 28, 2023 10:20 am Subject: Re: Type II/Type III Civilization Search Finds Nothing On Thu, Apr 27, 2023 at 10:04 PM Tomasz Rola <rto...@ceti.pl> wrote: > As of relations between hypotetical neighbors, I do not think anybody would make big fuss if one of them decided to suck full energy of their star (i.e. becoming Type2). I can't think of any reason neighbors would object to building such a thing either, but the Second Law Of Thermodynamics demands that at stellar distances such an object would produce a very very small but very very bright infrared signal with no visible ultraviolet or x-ray emissions at all. Such an object should be easily observable by an earthbound infrared telescope or a space based one such as the Web, but nothing even close to that has ever been found. And that makes me conclude that they probably don't exist in the observable universe. > I can hardly think about any use for such a project I sure can! When Drexler style Nanotechnology becomes commonplace (which will happen the day after the first Nanofabricator is built) any task will be either physically impossible or ridiculously easy, nothing will be too difficult or expensive to do. The only thing that will still be valuable will be novelty, and brains are more interesting than dead matter because brains can perform computations. But it takes energy to make a calculation, a star provides a lot of energy, however in every star we've ever looked at all that energy is never put to work, instead it's just radiated uselessly into infinite space. I don't believe any intelligence would put up with such uselessness for long. So they would have every incentive to construct a Dyson Sphere, or at least they would if ET actually existed. > I mean, star is projecting this whole energy outwards, so the idea of sucking it up and keepeing it inwards sounds fishy and possibly hints of some mental condition. But okay, it is their energy and their star, and if they want to cook themselves hard then why not. Huh? The radiant electromagnetic energy output of a star with a Dyson Sphere around it would be exactly the same as it was before the Dyson Sphere was built, the only difference is the energy would have been put to work and thus the low entropy visible and ultraviolet photons would have been converted to high entropy infrared photons that contain a equal amount of energy. But as I have said no such object has ever been observed and if they existed they should have been. > But it could also be used to enable some deranged gizmo project, mega-zeta-interstellar-laser or speeding up subrelativistic torpedos, Why in hell would they want to destroy a brain on another star?! As I said the only thing a Dyson Sphere building civilization would still value would be novelty, and 2 such advanced civilizations that evolved independently would be novel indeed. I think both would be delighted to find each other and communicate, the delay time would be large but so would be the bandwidth. But what could a Type2 civilization do to increase novelty if it was already using the energy output of its star to the limit of its capacity and could detect no other Type2 such as itself? It could construct just one single von Neumann probe and send it to the nearest star and then, even if we make the ridiculously conservative assumption that it couldn't make an interstellar probe move any faster then we can do right now with our primitive chemical rockets, there would still be such a construction machine on every stellar system in the galaxy in less than 50 million years, a blink of the eye cosmically speaking. And very soon after that you'd have a Type3 civilization. If a Type3 civilization existed anywhere in the observable universe we would see it, but we see nothing of the sort. > As of becoming Type3, I simply do not think it is going to be allowed. This is how I think it could occur. I don't think a Type2 would contain trillions or even billions of minds but probably less than a million, that's because enormous amounts of information can be transferred very quickly electronically, so provided that 2 brains are not so far apart that the delay caused by the finite speed of light becomes significant there would not be 2 brains but only one. If every thought you had I had and every thought I had you had it would it be meaningless to talk about 2 separate people. But how distant can the two brains be before the time delay becomes intolerable? The fastest signals in the human brain move at a couple of hundred meters a second, many are far slower, light moves at 300 million meters per second. So if you insist that the 2 most distant parts of a brain communicate as fast as they do in a human brain (a rather arbitrary constraint) then parts in the brain of an AI could be at least one million times as distant as they are in a human, about 480 miles across. The volume increases by the cube of the distance so such a brain would physically be a million trillion (10^18) times larger than a human brain. Even if 99.9% of that space were used just to deliver power and get rid of waste heat you'd still have a thousand trillion times as much volume for logic and memory components as humans have room for inside their heads. And the components would be considerably smaller than the human ones too. > So, you are right, in a way - he who is Type3 has little to be afraid of (but I would proposition he starts paranoia about his closest circle, because this is the lesson from history). Once we enter the age of Nanotechnology the lessons from history will be of little value, that's why it's called a Singularity. John K Clark See what's on my new list at Extropolis e9x -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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