Further to the below, on reflection I may be mistaken to describe the
Teniers picture as an Italian representation - whilst he worked mainly
in a part of the Hapsburg dominions I think a link to Italy is a bit
too speculative. But the pilaster representation is very clearly
Italian
regards,
Martyn
--- On Tue, 29/1/13, Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy
To: "Alexander Batov" <alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com>
Cc: pie...@vantichelen.name, "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Tuesday, 29 January, 2013, 9:48
Dear Alexander,
Many thanks for these pretty convincing examples of 4 course Italian
guitars in figure8 shape from later 16th/early 17th century.
regards
Martyn
--- On Mon, 28/1/13, Alexander Batov
<[1]alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com> wrote:
From: Alexander Batov <[2]alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: [4]pie...@vantichelen.name, "Lutelist"
<[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Monday, 28 January, 2013, 15:42
Martyn, Peter et all,
First of all, this particular painting by Tibaldi (although with a
different attribution, to A.Grammatica) was already illustrated in
Meucci's article (published in 2000), so not much new here I'm
afraid.
The only evidence that I'm aware of for the existence of
figure-of-eight shaped 4-course guitar in the 16th century Italy is
found on a pilaster of the Duomo of Cremona (c.1560):
[1][6]http://www.vihuelademano.com/vg-crossroads/LStalk/pilaster.jpg
And in the context:
[2][7]http://www.vihuelademano.com/rcmdias.htm#p5
What is particularly remarkable about this fragment is that the
instrument appears to be 'wrapped' in a book (presumably of music
...?)
which, in a way, gives an idea of its size: unless, of course, the
intentions of the artist or sculptor were purely symbolical.
Generally I agree with most of the points in Meucci's article but
the
question still remains whether the name chitarra a sette corde /
chitarra a nove corde (or chitara da sette corde, i.e. as in
Barberiis'
book) is of a lute or figure-of-eight shape. Meucci's logic here is
based entirely on a presumption (unless I missed something ...) that
the figure-of-eight shape would have to be categorised as 'Spanish'
and
if there is no such attribute than it is in the lute shape.
Unfortunately, a sole reliance on language definitions is never
going
to be accurate and so we may never get to the bottom of it, until
some
new, more definitive evidence, comes to light; it may indeed will
...
Alexander
On 28/01/2013 10:27, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
> Thank you Peter,
>
> Have you a precise date for this painting? You suggest later
half
of
> the 16th century (and I note Tibaldi died in 1596) so it might
not
> actually predate the the mandore boom years.
>
> As you also remark: 'Of course, nothing proves that the
instrument
> depicted is a "chitarrino" but at least it proves some
lute-like
> instrument of soprano range at that time and place.' ; and I
wholly
> agree with you - nevertheless all these things add grist to
the
mill
> and I look forward to any other further discoveries.
>
> What would be ideal would be an Italian representation similar
to
the
> cover of the Morlaye book ie unequivocally tying an instrument
(of
> whatever shape!) to a tablature, but........
>
> regards,
>
> Martyn
>
To get on or off this list see list information at
[3][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. [9]http://www.vihuelademano.com/vg-crossroads/LStalk/pilaster.jpg
2. [10]http://www.vihuelademano.com/rcmdias.htm#p5
3. [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com
2.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com
3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pie...@vantichelen.name
5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
6. http://www.vihuelademano.com/vg-crossroads/LStalk/pilaster.jpg
7. http://www.vihuelademano.com/rcmdias.htm#p5
8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
9. http://www.vihuelademano.com/vg-crossroads/LStalk/pilaster.jpg
10. http://www.vihuelademano.com/rcmdias.htm#p5
11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
