About your recording.
I think the Vivat he sang like English pronunciation of Latin.
Liza like modern English, because I suppose he sang the rest of the
song in modern English too.
(I've recorded it too. Should check what the singer did, maybe ...)
In HIP lute song performance, you can choose for early English
pronunciation, but this is very difficult to do, not so clear about how
to pronounce exactly, and not so clear for a modern audience to
understand. So there is a strong argument in favour of modern English
pronunciation of lute song. Robert Spencer, one of my teachers, was
strongly in favour of modern pronunciation for reasons of
communication: performing lute songs is about giving your audience the
text, not the sounds. But for a little later songs, like Purcell, I
think it's nice to try, as here the sound of the language is so much a
part of the composition. On the other hand, the greatest changes in
English pronunciation are already past by the time of Purcell. For what
I know of it, anyway. I'm sure someone can - and will! - correct me
here.
The pronunciation of Latin in Early music is generally regulated
according to country and time. 16th century French-Latin is pronounced
differently than 16th century English or Italian Latin. This might seem
a similar can of worms as the early English pronunciation, but
apparently it is much more clearly defined. Or so my early music
singers tell me. There's even a convenient little booklet with all the
details. But then, regarding the 'vivat' you're left with the question:
if you pronounce the rest of the song in modern English, would you not
choose modern English-Latin for the few Latin bits too, or would you go
for early English-Latin? (I don't know if there's much, if any,
difference.)
Regarding rhyme in 17th century English. This is a debated subject.
With early pronunciation you'd get more (all?) rhyme than with modern
pronunciation. Modern scholars have invented 'eye rhyme' or 'visual
rhyme' for words that seem to rhyme on paper, but due to the
idiosyncrasies of the English language don't rhyme when pronounced. If
'visual rhyme' was a known concept for 16th century poets, I don't
know, but I doubt it.
Anyway, ganbatte kudasai!
*******************************
David van Ooijen
[1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
[2]www.davidvanooijen.nl
*******************************
On 23 April 2017 at 18:31, lutenist.mumin.koide gmail
<[3]lutenist.mumin.ko...@gmail.com> wrote:
Arigato go zai mas, David-san,
In Rooley's The Consort of Musicke recording, David Thomas sang
"Vivat" like
"va;y-vat" (similar to syllables of "Wyatt")
"Eliza" like "eh-lie-zah". Sounds quite modern-english-english to
my ears
and I was wondering why he sang like that.
Tomoko
-----Original Message-----
From: [4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[5]lute-arc@cs.dartmouth.
edu] On Behalf
Of David van Ooijen
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 12:16 AM
To: lutelist Net <[6]Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivat Eliza
Konnichiwa Tomoko-san
Vivat Eliza = Long live (Queen) Elisabeth.
So as English-Latin as you like the Vivat, and then as
English-English
as you like Eliza.
This little song cycle has some more Latin in it. Either make it
period-English-Latin, or make it clearly Latin. There are
different
'schools' of doing this.
David
*******************************
David van Ooijen
[1][7]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
[2][8]www.davidvanooijen.nl
*******************************
On 23 April 2017 at 17:02, lutenist.mumin.koide gmail
<[3][9]lutenist.mumin.ko...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear lute-list,
Could anyone help me clarify pronunciation of "Vivat Eliza" in
Dowland's composition
to Sir. Henry Lee's poem "Time's Eldest Son"?
I thought it could be " viãä¹ãôã²t ("Vivat" read in
ecclesiastical
Latin?) and " ãæ°¸ãå¸ãã» (with this pronunciation it rhymes
with "Ave
Maria" ) though many sang it " vaãå¯ã§vãôã²t ãçãç¯
ã£ãå¯ã§zãã»
for which I
couldn't find any reason...
Tomoko
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--
References
1. mailto:[11]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
2. [12]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
3. mailto:[13]lutenist.mumin.ko...@gmail.com
4. [14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
3. mailto:lutenist.mumin.ko...@gmail.com
4. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
6. mailto:Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
7. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
8. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
9. mailto:lutenist.mumin.ko...@gmail.com
10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
11. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
12. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
13. mailto:lutenist.mumin.ko...@gmail.com
14. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
