Hej Sebastian! > I will try to be nice. But it's not that easy as you steal me a lot of > time with these repeating messages.
You can if you try. The same for me and the time we have invested so far, we are trying to consolidate. > First I must say you are correct in some points. We need to invest more > time into project handling for qooxdoo. If you take a look at the > mailing list and the number of messages there, you will discover that > the have increased dramatically over the last month and even weeks. It's > not that easy to meet this requirement. The company I am working for > have published qooxdoo as open-source, as we like to share it with the > community. We use many open-source projects ourself and in this way we > could give the community something (hopefully useful) back. The problem > with this increase of work is that I have also some other projects which > are more internal and only interesting for the company. I already invest > by around 70 percent of my time for qooxdoo. This is very much and much > more than any other developer or contributer spend for "just developing > qooxdoo itself". I have no problem with this. It's quite logical that > the leading developers invest the most of the time. Sebastian, I do not doubt anything of this. I see the results. It is wonderful, but even the best can be better and that is what it is all about. No one is doubting your talent, time, dedication, but being an enthusiastic developer to manage 50 to 100 people or even more is a dramatic difference in comparison to managing yourself. Ask your managers in your firm! > As qooxdoo grows even more, I must find a good balance to get the 30 > percent done which are more company internal stuff while keeping the > development on qooxdoo up as much as possible. The previous and the > further development of qooxdoo is controlled, especially regarding my > resources, by the company I am working for. We don't want to sell > qooxdoo sometimes later. The major priority is to develop qooxdoo to > fulfill our internal requirements. We have no ambition to build a > complete toolkit, which we could sell afterwards. This is probably the > reason why there is currently no datapicker, no progressbars, no > horizontal scrolling in listviews and such stuff. We just don't need > these things currently. (This does not mean that they couldn't be > contributed by the community.) Sebastian, please notify my words! Delegate as much as possible. Here is a true question: When a project is let to the community you also accept to listen to the needs of the community, else it is far easier to keep the project internally within the company. No buzz!!! If you do not use the power of the community, it is useless to be in the community for other reasons as showing off. Here comes the question concerning reasons? I hope it is for getting help from the community Qooxdoo is present there. > I think it's a good idea to have more people which knows the code base > as good as I am and who would help to answer questions of the newbie > users, write documentation or even continue the development of qooxdoo. > The problem with this is that I don't see any person out there who could > fulfill this requirement. I am not able to bake us a new guy. ;) It is less vulnerable. Find your substitutor already now! You don't see, try to find! > Just to give our discussion some more facts. I was just one week ill. > This is not a really long time. But even the simplest questions, already > answered before by me or others, are not answered by anyone else in the > community. Yes, I think this is quite normal for OSS products as no one > feels responsible. But real contributors to qooxdoo also like to help > out here. It would be really appreciated to see more user support here. Not at all. We all missed you and at least I hoped everything was ok with you. > I don't share your opinion (and yes, again it's just your opinion) that > you couldn't use qooxdoo in professional projects. You present this > messages without any facts. We don't develop qooxdoo just for fun (I > think I have repeated this enough times, but you don't theme to realize > this fact). We use it for some professional products already. Why do you > present such testimonies for even new qooxdoo users. This is really > contra productive. We want more users and developers not less. It would > be really nice you could present your reports in a more positive way. No these are facts. We are a team of 5 very advanced developers with many different backgrounds, but we have still not managed to get the first commercial application with Qooxdoo as the GUI client working in a stabile way because of many reasons. We do not know better! If you know better, please show me ONE commercial application of Qooxdoo. I would love to learn more. If it is not there I understand, but do not change reality. Keep it simple! I know it will come, but I am not convinced we are there yet. It is positive and balanced. At least that is the purpose! > Delegation, by the way, could only work for users which really want to > invest many hours. Are you such a user? Why do you don't help with the > already existing requirements? What should I delegate in your opinion if > there is no body how can handle this. Andreas and I have repeatly asked > for people who: Trust people you have been working with for a while. I can put three more people 40-60% of their time paid by the company I manage, BECAUSE QOOXDOO IS A FANTASTIC APPROACH, but not more right now!!!!....and I think we will be able to use it soon. Now you have heard it again! It is your decision. I am trying to help you. I have made some suggestions. Give more people access, 3-4 super users. > * write documentation (especially first-step level guides) > * make screenshots more documentation (such the new subversion stuff) > * add snippets and other userful stuff to our homepage Give Hugh free hands. He has done a wonderful job so far. Trust him! > * reading code and try to understand it yourself and try to help us with > things like the new transport layer One of the users who tried to do it was totally demolished. I think it was very aggressive to turn him down like that, instead of involving him and not invent the wheel twice. > * fix contributions (by the way, many of the contributed stuff doesn't > seem to be perfect right now. Can you tell me why I should even consider > to bring such contributions to our stable tree? I think they are really > good placed in our contributed folder) Do you know why? Because my interest to put all updates in the list has decreased, so they are not up-to-date. It clots the list, you wants to look at it, but you do not have time etc etc I am not arguing with you. I am telling you what the reasons are. But I will be putting it up-to-date. > * write new widget like a data picker, a slider or other widgets which > can be found in our TODO. I have a slider working in my computer, but I have not uploaded it so far. The start of the date picker is also in place, but because the localisation etc has not been decided yet, I stalled that until I came through with the QxLocale, QxLocaleManager and QxResource classes. They are there now....first shot released yesterday. > I think, regarding this small list, there is already enough one can > contribute. I think we need more delegation if there would be more > people who asks what they could do to help the project. But currently? > What should I do in your opinion than present a list of things we would > like to do in the next several months? I think you should have an extremely clear list of things you want to be done and invite new developers to start. Not only one line. A little more explanation about your ideas might help them to estimate the effort. Then take a chance to ask everyone to contribute whenever it gives. Make it divergent! > Where are all these "worried users", Kent? Can you please present some > more facts? Could you tell what they things went wrong and who they are? Of course, I do not give any names if they don't want to publish. I have asked them to publish, but they think the debate climate is a little bit too tough. You have had arguing with people during the last months. I think they really wanted to contribute, but did they feel welcomed? My experience was the following: I was astonished over the willingness of you to answer questions. I was disappointed with you when it came to stimulating me to contribute. But the library has all the time kept me here, and that is the result of your and others work. > I'm really interested if anybody else than just repeatedly you, Kent, > thinks that I prevent other users from contributing. I could be blind, > but I don't think it's a problem of my project handling that there are > not more visible and engaged persons. So, what is then the reason, Sebastian? Why aren't more people involved? Can you share your analysis? Kent > Regards, > > Sebastian > > > > Kent Olsson schrieb: > > Sebastian is a very driven person and in one sense too much drive for > > this project. It means that things stop and nothing or very little > > happens when he does not have time to spend for Qooxdoo for any reason. > > It is detrimental for the project, because a lot of people spend a lot > > of time to get things working with Qooxdoo. Indirectly it is a big > > responsibility and a heavy role Sebastian carries on his shoulders. Of > > course it is an open source project, but still, if we want Qooxdoo to be > > useful in professional projects, it is necessary to find at least one > > more person to share this role with Sebastian. I am not sure how aware > > Sebastian is about this, because not much has happened by itself in this > > area, but the more users approaching Qooxdoo, the more problems the > > project will have. It already has had those symptoms the last 2-3 > > months. This is not a commercial project therefore it is extremely > > important to share the burden of Sebastian's on at least one more > > person. Why is this important? Is it only for the sake of Sebastian or > > the project itself? I can see that there is so much more to develop > > before Qooxdoo can be used in a professional project to an extent close > > to 100% and I doubt that this can be done only by one or two persons > > within reasonable time without 100% dedication/time. I try to be frank > > in this, but delegation is now the only way to succeed and the future > > solution, else there will be a high risk of people choosing other ways. > > I have already received some communication from worried users indirectly > > from this list. I do share their worries! > > > > Sebastian, release some of the control but keep the quality control and > > coordination! > > > > Kent > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > This SF.Net email is sponsored by xPML, a groundbreaking scripting language > > that extends applications into web and mobile media. Attend the live webcast > > and join the prime developer group breaking into this new coding territory! > > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=110944&bid=241720&dat=121642 > > _______________________________________________ > > Qooxdoo-devel mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.Net email is sponsored by xPML, a groundbreaking scripting language > that extends applications into web and mobile media. Attend the live webcast > and join the prime developer group breaking into this new coding territory! > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=110944&bid=241720&dat=121642 > _______________________________________________ > Qooxdoo-devel mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.Net email is sponsored by xPML, a groundbreaking scripting language that extends applications into web and mobile media. Attend the live webcast and join the prime developer group breaking into this new coding territory! http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=110944&bid=241720&dat=121642 _______________________________________________ Qooxdoo-devel mailing list [email protected] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/qooxdoo-devel
