@everybody
I just want to back Sebastian: I fully agree with his statements. We are
using qooxdoo in an internal project and time is, as usual, very limited
especially in small projects which have to be deliverd very soon to
customers. I did a few tests and created examples, bothered Sebastian
with questions and feature requests, contributed a few patches and
methods to qooxdoo. Now as the project is done I'm simply not able to
invest more time regarding qooxdoo. In this time I think I just
"scratched" the surface of this complex and well designed piece of
software. I whish we had a customer who is willing to do a project which
uses qooxdoo so I can spend again time with this project.
During this development I never had and have the impression that
Sebastian and somoene of his team behaves in some way non cooperative or
refusing. I just had the impression that Sebastians team is very busy
doing internal things for their company and spend "extra" time for
answering user questions. They try to keep the implementation as clean
and homogenous as possible. This is nothing negative. This could be the
impression of someone who wants to see a quick and dirty hack in the
distribution to get something work, as I've tried ;-)
So I'm coming back from time to time to qooxdoo and look around and if I
find a bug or read a question in this list to which I'm able to answer I
do so.
From my point I can say that knowing of the limitations of qooxdoo I'm
very satisfied with the qooxdoo framework and the results I've created
with it in my project.
Thank you again.
Sebastian Werner schrieb:
Hi Kent,
I will try to be nice. But it's not that easy as you steal me a lot of
time with these repeating messages.
First I must say you are correct in some points. We need to invest
more time into project handling for qooxdoo. If you take a look at the
mailing list and the number of messages there, you will discover that
the have increased dramatically over the last month and even weeks.
It's not that easy to meet this requirement. The company I am working
for have published qooxdoo as open-source, as we like to share it with
the community. We use many open-source projects ourself and in this
way we could give the community something (hopefully useful) back. The
problem with this increase of work is that I have also some other
projects which are more internal and only interesting for the company.
I already invest by around 70 percent of my time for qooxdoo. This is
very much and much more than any other developer or contributer spend
for "just developing qooxdoo itself". I have no problem with this.
It's quite logical that the leading developers invest the most of the
time.
As qooxdoo grows even more, I must find a good balance to get the 30
percent done which are more company internal stuff while keeping the
development on qooxdoo up as much as possible. The previous and the
further development of qooxdoo is controlled, especially regarding my
resources, by the company I am working for. We don't want to sell
qooxdoo sometimes later. The major priority is to develop qooxdoo to
fulfill our internal requirements. We have no ambition to build a
complete toolkit, which we could sell afterwards. This is probably the
reason why there is currently no datapicker, no progressbars, no
horizontal scrolling in listviews and such stuff. We just don't need
these things currently. (This does not mean that they couldn't be
contributed by the community.)
I think it's a good idea to have more people which knows the code base
as good as I am and who would help to answer questions of the newbie
users, write documentation or even continue the development of
qooxdoo. The problem with this is that I don't see any person out
there who could fulfill this requirement. I am not able to bake us a
new guy. ;)
Just to give our discussion some more facts. I was just one week ill.
This is not a really long time. But even the simplest questions,
already answered before by me or others, are not answered by anyone
else in the community. Yes, I think this is quite normal for OSS
products as no one feels responsible. But real contributors to qooxdoo
also like to help out here. It would be really appreciated to see more
user support here.
I don't share your opinion (and yes, again it's just your opinion)
that you couldn't use qooxdoo in professional projects. You present
this messages without any facts. We don't develop qooxdoo just for fun
(I think I have repeated this enough times, but you don't theme to
realize this fact). We use it for some professional products already.
Why do you present such testimonies for even new qooxdoo users. This
is really contra productive. We want more users and developers not
less. It would be really nice you could present your reports in a more
positive way.
Delegation, by the way, could only work for users which really want to
invest many hours. Are you such a user? Why do you don't help with the
already existing requirements? What should I delegate in your opinion
if there is no body how can handle this. Andreas and I have repeatly
asked for people who:
* write documentation (especially first-step level guides)
* make screenshots more documentation (such the new subversion stuff)
* add snippets and other userful stuff to our homepage
* reading code and try to understand it yourself and try to help us
with things like the new transport layer
* fix contributions (by the way, many of the contributed stuff doesn't
seem to be perfect right now. Can you tell me why I should even
consider to bring such contributions to our stable tree? I think they
are really good placed in our contributed folder)
* write new widget like a data picker, a slider or other widgets which
can be found in our TODO.
I think, regarding this small list, there is already enough one can
contribute. I think we need more delegation if there would be more
people who asks what they could do to help the project. But currently?
What should I do in your opinion than present a list of things we
would like to do in the next several months?
Where are all these "worried users", Kent? Can you please present some
more facts? Could you tell what they things went wrong and who they are?
I'm really interested if anybody else than just repeatedly you, Kent,
thinks that I prevent other users from contributing. I could be blind,
but I don't think it's a problem of my project handling that there are
not more visible and engaged persons.
Regards,
Sebastian
Kent Olsson schrieb:
Sebastian is a very driven person and in one sense too much drive for
this project. It means that things stop and nothing or very little
happens when he does not have time to spend for Qooxdoo for any reason.
It is detrimental for the project, because a lot of people spend a lot
of time to get things working with Qooxdoo. Indirectly it is a big
responsibility and a heavy role Sebastian carries on his shoulders. Of
course it is an open source project, but still, if we want Qooxdoo to be
useful in professional projects, it is necessary to find at least one
more person to share this role with Sebastian. I am not sure how aware
Sebastian is about this, because not much has happened by itself in this
area, but the more users approaching Qooxdoo, the more problems the
project will have. It already has had those symptoms the last 2-3
months. This is not a commercial project therefore it is extremely
important to share the burden of Sebastian's on at least one more
person. Why is this important? Is it only for the sake of Sebastian or
the project itself? I can see that there is so much more to develop
before Qooxdoo can be used in a professional project to an extent close
to 100% and I doubt that this can be done only by one or two persons
within reasonable time without 100% dedication/time. I try to be frank
in this, but delegation is now the only way to succeed and the future
solution, else there will be a high risk of people choosing other ways.
I have already received some communication from worried users indirectly
from this list. I do share their worries!
Sebastian, release some of the control but keep the quality control and
coordination!
Kent
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