Re: non-disruptive speech ?

[Steven Jamar]

Fortunately most Christians do not feel the need to go around telling the rest of us we are damned to hell and so the problem is less bad than it could be.   I must respectfully disagree with Rick's attempt at a more subtle and sophisticated (and I think accurate) reading as being what I have encountered and my kids have encountered in all but the most thoughtful and bright evangelicals.  And they have to a person been respectful of me, and often of my beliefs, howsoever much they wished to convert me.  Of course I have always been able to talk about religion without getting hot under the collar, and so do not easily get too upset by the comments of others in that regard. As to bullying -- much of the bullying done is done by Christians on Christians -- or was at my school 40 years ago -- of course nearly everyone was Christian of some sort.  The Jews were not singled out for bullying.  And the same is largely true today, though certainly when homeschooled kids come into the public schools there can be adjustment problems -- from a kind of ostracism or exclusion (cliques are already formed from years in public school) to a kind of hazing (in order to get into the "group") to even worse. But it is not one-sided -- home schooled kids often have a chip on their shoulder and have not encountered different views since they studied at home and went on field trips with like-minded families and such and so do not have the social resources to respond to the new and difficult situation.  I wasn't bullied, but I hated HS and saw people who were bullied for no reason at all. Religion is a hot-button issue for kids who are just becoming exposed to new ideas for the first time in HS, sometimes MS, and for kids whose job it is in those  years to explore and define themselves.  Fewer adults are as vigorous true believers as kids are -- whether it is about a teacher, a rock band, sports, school "spirit", or whatever.   I think the implication of this state of affairs, plus the EC and FE and free speech dimensions, all add up to the school having a fair amount of latitude in regulating speech and activities of a religious nature and in trumpeting the civic virtue of tolerance toward those of other beliefs, castes, what-have-you. BTW, I taught my kids not to fight with fists or stones or sticks.  I've always found power in turning the other cheek.  And my kids were not inclined toward martial arts, but rather found soccer to their liking. Steve On Nov 6, 2005, at 2:18 PM, Rick Duncan wrote: Joel and I agree at least on this--if my child were physically attacked by other children because of his faith, I would encourage him to turn loose all his martial arts skills and give the bullies a good attitude adjustment.   The remedy for speech you disagree with is counterspeech. The remedy for punches thrown at you by bullies is counterpunches (actually, it's blocks and counterpunches followed by round kicks).   And I could tell you stories that would curl your hair about the bullying that many homeschooled children encounter when they enter public secondary schools.   Cheers, Rick Duncan Joel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Perhaps the better analogy would be when my child simply points out that Jesus is just a fictional character like Shaggy or even Scooby Doo, and his teaching are to be given about the same weight.  It seems that those who have never had to endure this kind of assault have little idea the damage it does.  Whether it’s having rocks thrown at you, or some of the good Christian children waiting to beat on you when you leave the building, there are rarely good consequences to standing up for your Jewishness at school.  There are few things I teach my children to stand and fight about.  Religion happens to be one of them.  If others find that offensive, perhaps they might want to put an end to the cause.  Telling Jewish kids they are going to hell is never the end of the conversation, it is always the start of the confrontation.     Joel L. Sogol Attorney at Law 811 21st Ave. Tuscaloosa, Alabama  35401 ph: 205-345-0966 fx:  205-345-0971 email:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]     Ben Franklin observed that truth wins a fair fight -- which is why we have evidence rules in U.S. courts. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Rick Duncan Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 8:32 AM To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Re: non-disruptive speech ?   If I understand Joel correctly, the next time a peer informs my son, a 3d Degree Black Belt, that it is "homophobic" to discriminate against same-sex "marriages," my son ought to kick the hateful speaker soundly with his best board-breaking side kicks. Hmmm. I think I would discipline him at home for such violent conduct.   Rick Duncan Joel Sogol <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Rich Duncan says: The law is clear that public school students do not shed their free speech rights at the public schoolhouse door. They have a clear right to engage in non-disruptive speech. Discussing the doctrine of salvation by faith is not hate speech. It is quite the opposite. That's why John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."   So let’s understand – the next kid that tells my 7 year old that we are going to hell, which whether Rick agrees or not is always where that conversation goes, is going to get a basic understanding of the karate classes Sam is now taking.  The speech is in fact more then just disruptive, and it invites a response that will be equally unacceptable at school, but for which my son will not be disciplined at home.   Joel L. Sogol Attorney at Law 811 21st Avenue Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35401 ph (205) 345-0966 fx (205) 345-0971 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Ben Franklin observed that truth wins a fair fight -- which is why we have evidence rules in U.S. courts.     _______________________________________________ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. Rick Duncan Welpton Professor of Law University of Nebraska College of Law Lincoln, NE 68583-0902 "When the Round Table is broken every man must follow either Galahad or Mordred: middle things are gone." C.S.Lewis, Grand Miracle "I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered." --The Prisoner Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. _______________________________________________ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. Rick Duncan Welpton Professor of Law University of Nebraska College of Law Lincoln, NE 68583-0902 "W! hen the Round Table is broken every man must follow either Galahad or Mordred: middle things are gone." C.S.Lewis, Grand Miracle "I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered." --The Prisoner Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. _______________________________________________ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private.  Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. --  Prof. Steven D. Jamar                               vox:  202-806-8017 Howard University School of Law                     fax:  202-806-8567 2900 Van Ness Street NW                   mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Washington, DC  20008   http://www.law.howard.edu/faculty/pages/jamar/ "It is by education I learn to do by choice, what other men do by the constraint of fear." Aristotle

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