Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
according to their answer on the forum, theyr don't vent the hydrogen at all, execept if deadly improbable dysfunction. It seems they did answer about quiescence, saying they see none... however they use a pulse control to avoid burnout. 2012/5/12 Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com If you recall our past discussions (Re: Excess heat due to proton pairing in metal hydrides) about the DGT maintenance process of periodically venting the hydrogen envelope and occasionally vacuuming the nickel powder. I suggested that this procedure was to mitigate the “quiescence” problem whose causation is localized in the hydrogen envelope. What this maintenance procedure would do is reduce to low levels, the “secret sauce” additive. This catalyst would need to be reformulated and reactivated after envelope venting. The function of the second spark plug is rebuild the nano-structures of the “secret sauce” when the DGT reactor is restarted. There must be a large resource of functional additive precursor compound that is in close proximity to the plasma end on the second spark plug. In the Rossi reactor, the functional additive is only formulated at the initial startup and is maintained for long term running. But in the DGT reactor which can be restarted many times on-site, the functional additive must be rebuilt after each on-site maintenance procedure. The second plug is only activated for a short timeframe until the functional additive is vaporized from a powdered or a solid feedstock compound packed closely around the plasma end of the second spark plug. Cheers: Axil On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 2:56 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: ** Having 2 spark plugs on both ends, and firing them alternately in groups will cause the hot zone to alternate between the 2 ends. This to me would push the hydrogen back and forth between the 2 ends, as hot hydrogen expands and migrate to the cool end. Timing the sparks properly would create a constant hot hydrogen gas pulse alternating between the 2 ends. And fast flowing hydrogen should carry the nickel nanopowder along for the ride thereby ensuring that the sparks never hit the same powder particles. This to me is a effective means to create turbulence. My approach to creating turbulence is to take advantage of the themosiphon Chimneyeffect. Hot gas flows up and is cooled and then gets pulled along an alternate tube back to the bottom where the spark plug is. I calculated the gas flow in the order of 137m/s within my reactor. Whether this figure is accurate or not, one thing is clear - I have sufficient turbulence. It appears unneccesary to use spark plug for temperature measurements. There appears to be an abundance of thermocouple connections in that reactor. Looking at the reactor end plates, there are a lot of holes for a bunch of different instrument probes. The presence of the spark plug is unneccesary for the purposes you mentioned. To me, sparks appear to be critical for the creation of Rydberg matter as speculated by Axil. I am unfamiliar with the Atomic Battery calculations you are alluding to. Can you please elaborate? Jojo - Original Message - *From:* David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Friday, May 11, 2012 1:24 PM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies I do see the two plugs at opposite ends of the device but it is not obvious why this configuration would generate a large amount turbulence. The fact that they are using two plugs might indicate that there are two isolated voltage feeds; one positive and the other negative (or AC to balance the effect). This might tend to spread the ion stream along the length of the cylinder. The metal caps at each end of the device are quite thick which explains the long reach plugs. An earlier poster suggested that the plugs were merely used as a means of breaching the metal caps with a high pressure and temperature resistant connector. This might be the reason for the plugs if we follow their reasoning since spark plugs are used in ICE in that manner. Of course they also carry the high voltage to activate the plugs in those services. There may be good logic associated with the spark induced ion current injection. I once looked at that from a different perspective. I calculated the induced current associated with an atomic battery that operated with beta plus decays that would occur according to Rossi's original paper. It was a while back in time but I recall that several milliamps of current would be induced at the power level of a few kilowatts. I can reproduce the number if it is of additional interest. If the current is in the form of protons required to interact then it should not be too difficult to generate the necessary number by spark ionization. I have to wonder how effeciently the protons interact with the nickel
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
What is Stremmenos up to nowadays? On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 1:17 PM, Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.comwrote: Hello group, Have a look at this new pdf from DGT, dated May 2012: http://www.defkalion-energy.**com/files/2012-05_**StatusPicturesFinal.pdfhttp://www.defkalion-energy.com/files/2012-05_StatusPicturesFinal.pdf Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
Having 2 spark plugs on both ends, and firing them alternately in groups will cause the hot zone to alternate between the 2 ends. This to me would push the hydrogen back and forth between the 2 ends, as hot hydrogen expands and migrate to the cool end. Timing the sparks properly would create a constant hot hydrogen gas pulse alternating between the 2 ends. And fast flowing hydrogen should carry the nickel nanopowder along for the ride thereby ensuring that the sparks never hit the same powder particles. This to me is a effective means to create turbulence. My approach to creating turbulence is to take advantage of the themosiphon Chimneyeffect. Hot gas flows up and is cooled and then gets pulled along an alternate tube back to the bottom where the spark plug is. I calculated the gas flow in the order of 137m/s within my reactor. Whether this figure is accurate or not, one thing is clear - I have sufficient turbulence. It appears unneccesary to use spark plug for temperature measurements. There appears to be an abundance of thermocouple connections in that reactor. Looking at the reactor end plates, there are a lot of holes for a bunch of different instrument probes. The presence of the spark plug is unneccesary for the purposes you mentioned. To me, sparks appear to be critical for the creation of Rydberg matter as speculated by Axil. I am unfamiliar with the Atomic Battery calculations you are alluding to. Can you please elaborate? Jojo - Original Message - From: David Roberson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies I do see the two plugs at opposite ends of the device but it is not obvious why this configuration would generate a large amount turbulence. The fact that they are using two plugs might indicate that there are two isolated voltage feeds; one positive and the other negative (or AC to balance the effect). This might tend to spread the ion stream along the length of the cylinder. The metal caps at each end of the device are quite thick which explains the long reach plugs. An earlier poster suggested that the plugs were merely used as a means of breaching the metal caps with a high pressure and temperature resistant connector. This might be the reason for the plugs if we follow their reasoning since spark plugs are used in ICE in that manner. Of course they also carry the high voltage to activate the plugs in those services. There may be good logic associated with the spark induced ion current injection. I once looked at that from a different perspective. I calculated the induced current associated with an atomic battery that operated with beta plus decays that would occur according to Rossi's original paper. It was a while back in time but I recall that several milliamps of current would be induced at the power level of a few kilowatts. I can reproduce the number if it is of additional interest. If the current is in the form of protons required to interact then it should not be too difficult to generate the necessary number by spark ionization. I have to wonder how effeciently the protons interact with the nickel active regions when origniated in this manner. I note that you mention that you use a different method of creating turbulence in your device. Have you actually build one which has a significant energy gain? Dave -Original Message- From: Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, May 10, 2012 11:31 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies Another thing, notice on page 24, DGT's reactor has 2 spark plugs mounted co-axially on both ends of the reactor. What is the point of this? What is the point of 2 plugs on both ends? Seems to me that if you wanted more power, all you've got to do is increase the energy on each individual spark and use only one spark plug. I speculate that this is for the purpose of creating turbulent flow. DGT must be firing those plugs alternately, created a rhythm of heating and cooling on both ends of the reactor thereby stimulating turbulent mixing in the reactor. Seems logical for me. I used a different approach in stimulating turbulence. Jojo - Original Message - From: Jojo Jaro To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies Rossi has not mentioned anything about spark plugs, though I suspect that sparks being central to his design, he would misdirect about it. I am of the opinion that those things that are mentioned by Rossi are the wrong ideas, while those things that he is curiously silent about are the key. A basic assumption I am working from is that Rossi would misdirect, while DGT would be more candid
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
On 2012-05-10 20:17, Akira Shirakawa wrote: Hello group, DGT also updated their Job Positions page here: http://www.defkalion-energy.com/jobs Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
Pages 5 and 7: Full ashtrays close to the H2 charge circuit.
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
The atomic battery I referred to operates in this manner: Rossi wrote a paper which stated that his reaction occurs when a proton enters the nucleus of a nickel atom. The newly minted and excited copper atom then releases an energetic positron by positive beta decay. The energetic positron is capable of overcoming a large voltage potential and reaches the case conductive material where it is annihilated by an electron. This causes a current flow within the outer casing and active medium to reestablish net charge balance. The nickel-hydrogen mixture would attempt to develop a negative charge as the positrons escape. The original atomic batteries operated in a similar manner. The main problem encountered with this battery system is that the voltage generated is quite large and the current flow small. The open circuit voltage depends upon the energy carried by the charged particles while the short circuit current is determined by the number of reactions occurring per second. The resulting high impedance source is difficult to match as optimum energy delivery is achieved. Newer and improved batteries use a PN junction to multiply the current available at much lower voltage. I suspect that it is possible to extract more of the energy contained within the particles by the original technique provided that an efficient voltage converter is obtainable that operates at high voltage. I currently do not think that the atomic battery concept makes a significant contribution to the reaction, but it does offer an alternate way of thinking. Perhaps the charge imbalance actively stirs up the core mixture as negatively charged nickel nanoparticles become attracted to the outer case where they release the excess electrons. Is it possible that the net negative charge appearing upon each nickel nanoparticle further accelerates protons released by the spark plug ion generator? Perhaps this effect would help explain the concentration of energy in active surface regions of the devices. Dave -Original Message- From: Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, May 11, 2012 2:57 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies ... I am unfamiliar with the Atomic Battery calculations you are alluding to. Can you please elaborate? Jojo
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
Andre Blum andre_vor...@blums.nl wrote: Pages 5 and 7: Full ashtrays close to the H2 charge circuit. Conclusion: These photographs really were taken in Europe. Not in the U.S. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
http://rulev-igor.narod.ru/theme_142.html 11.05.2012, 22:15, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com: The atomic battery I referred to operates in this manner: Rossi wrote a paper which stated that his reaction occurs when a proton enters the nucleus of a nickel atom. The newly minted and excited copper atom then releases an energetic positron by positive beta decay. The energetic positron is capable of overcoming a large voltage potential and reaches the case conductive material where it is annihilated by an electron. This causes a current flow within the outer casing and active medium to reestablish net charge balance. The nickel-hydrogen mixture would attempt to develop a negative charge as the positrons escape. The original atomic batteries operated in a similar manner. The main problem encountered with this battery system is that the voltage generated is quite large and the current flow small. The open circuit voltage depends upon the energy carried by the charged particles while the short circuit current is determined by the number of reactions occurring per second. The resulting high impedance source is difficult to match as optimum energy delivery is achieved. Newer and improved batteries use a PN junction to multiply the current available at much lower voltage. I suspect that it is possible to extract more of the energy contained within the particles by the original technique provided that an efficient voltage converter is obtainable that operates at high voltage. I currently do not think that the atomic battery concept makes a significant contribution to the reaction, but it does offer an alternate way of thinking. Perhaps the charge imbalance actively stirs up the core mixture as negatively charged nickel nanoparticles become attracted to the outer case where they release the excess electrons. Is it possible that the net negative charge appearing upon each nickel nanoparticle further accelerates protons released by the spark plug ion generator? Perhaps this effect would help explain the concentration of energy in active surface regions of the devices. Dave -Original Message- From: Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, May 11, 2012 2:57 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies ... I am unfamiliar with the Atomic Battery calculations you are alluding to. Can you please elaborate? Jojo
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
http://rulev-igor.narod.ru/theme_142.html 11.05.2012, 22:32, Рулев Игорь rulev-i...@yandex.ru: http://rulev-igor.narod.ru/theme_142.html 11.05.2012, 22:15, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com: The atomic battery I referred to operates in this manner: Rossi wrote a paper which stated that his reaction occurs when a proton enters the nucleus of a nickel atom. The newly minted and excited copper atom then releases an energetic positron by positive beta decay. The energetic positron is capable of overcoming a large voltage potential and reaches the case conductive material where it is annihilated by an electron. This causes a current flow within the outer casing and active medium to reestablish net charge balance. The nickel-hydrogen mixture would attempt to develop a negative charge as the positrons escape. The original atomic batteries operated in a similar manner. The main problem encountered with this battery system is that the voltage generated is quite large and the current flow small. The open circuit voltage depends upon the energy carried by the charged particles while the short circuit current is determined by the number of reactions occurring per second. The resulting high impedance source is difficult to match as optimum energy delivery is achieved. Newer and improved batteries use a PN junction to multiply the current available at much lower voltage. I suspect that it is possible to extract more of the energy contained within the particles by the original technique provided that an efficient voltage converter is obtainable that operates at high voltage. I currently do not think that the atomic battery concept makes a significant contribution to the reaction, but it does offer an alternate way of thinking. Perhaps the charge imbalance actively stirs up the core mixture as negatively charged nickel nanoparticles become attracted to the outer case where they release the excess electrons. Is it possible that the net negative charge appearing upon each nickel nanoparticle further accelerates protons released by the spark plug ion generator? Perhaps this effect would help explain the concentration of energy in active surface regions of the devices. Dave -Original Message- From: Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, May 11, 2012 2:57 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies ... I am unfamiliar with the Atomic Battery calculations you are alluding to. Can you please elaborate? Jojo
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
http://rulev-igor.narod.ru/theme_142.html 11.05.2012, 22:13, Andre Blum andre_vor...@blums.nl: Pages 5 and 7: Full ashtrays close to the H2 charge circuit.
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
http://rulev-igor.narod.ru/theme_142.html 11.05.2012, 21:39, Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com: On 2012-05-10 20:17, Akira Shirakawa wrote: Hello group, DGT also updated their Job Positions page here: http://www.defkalion-energy.com/jobs Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
http://rulev-igor.narod.ru/theme_142.html 11.05.2012, 21:39, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com: Having 2 spark plugs on both ends, and firing them alternately in groups will cause the hot zone to alternate between the 2 ends. This to me would push the hydrogen back and forth between the 2 ends, as hot hydrogen expands and migrate to the cool end. Timing the sparks properly would create a constant hot hydrogen gas pulse alternating between the 2 ends. And fast flowing hydrogen should carry the nickel nanopowder along for the ride thereby ensuring that the sparks never hit the same powder particles. This to me is a effective means to create turbulence. My approach to creating turbulence is to take advantage of the themosiphon Chimneyeffect. Hot gas flows up and is cooled and then gets pulled along an alternate tube back to the bottom where the spark plug is. I calculated the gas flow in the order of 137m/s within my reactor. Whether this figure is accurate or not, one thing is clear - I have sufficient turbulence. It appears unneccesary to use spark plug for temperature measurements. There appears to be an abundance of thermocouple connections in that reactor. Looking at the reactor end plates, there are a lot of holes for a bunch of different instrument probes. The presence of the spark plug is unneccesary for the purposes you mentioned. To me, sparks appear to be critical for the creation of Rydberg matter as speculated by Axil. I am unfamiliar with the Atomic Battery calculations you are alluding to. Can you please elaborate? Jojo - Original Message - From:David Roberson To:vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies I do see the two plugs at opposite ends of the device but it is not obvious why this configuration would generate a large amount turbulence. The fact that they are using two plugs might indicate that there are two isolated voltage feeds; one positive and the other negative (or AC to balance the effect). This might tend to spread the ion stream along the length of the cylinder. The metal caps at each end of the device are quite thick which explains the long reach plugs. An earlier poster suggested that the plugs were merely used as a means of breaching the metal caps with a high pressure and temperature resistant connector. This might be the reason for the plugs if we follow their reasoning since spark plugs are used in ICE in that manner. Of course they also carry the high voltage to activate the plugs in those services. There may be good logic associated with the spark induced ion current injection. I once looked at that from a different perspective. I calculated the induced current associated with an atomic battery that operated with beta plus decays that would occur according to Rossi's original paper. It was a while back in time but I recall that several milliamps of current would be induced at the power level of a few kilowatts. I can reproduce the number if it is of additional interest. If the current is in the form of protons required to interact then it should not be too difficult to generate the necessary number by spark ionization. I have to wonder how effeciently the protons interact with the nickel active regions when origniated in this manner. I note that you mention that you use a different method of creating turbulence in your device. Have you actually build one which has a significant energy gain? Dave -Original Message- From: Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, May 10, 2012 11:31 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies Another thing, notice on page 24, DGT's reactor has 2 spark plugs mounted co-axially on both ends of the reactor. What is the point of this? What is the point of 2 plugs on both ends? Seems to me that if you wanted more power, all you've got to do is increase the energy on each individual spark and use only one spark plug. I speculate that this is for the purpose of creating turbulent flow. DGT must be firing those plugs alternately, created a rhythm of heating and cooling on both ends of the reactor thereby stimulating turbulent mixing in the reactor. Seems logical for me. I used a different approach in stimulating turbulence. Jojo - Original Message - From:Jojo Jaro To:vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies Rossi has not mentioned anything about spark plugs, though I suspect that sparks being central to his design, he would misdirect about it. I am of the opinion that those things that are mentioned by Rossi are the wrong ideas, while those things that he is curiously silent about are the key. A basic
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
http://rulev-igor.narod.ru/theme_142.html 11.05.2012, 21:39, Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com: Spark plugs make for easily removable/modifiable, cheap and easy high voltage, high current and high temperature electrical feed-throughs into pressure or vacuum vessels. I don't think you can read to much into their use. At 04:42 PM 5/10/2012, ecat builder wrote: Wow. That is a spark plug on that reactor! See Pages 13, 14, 16, 18. Page 18 has a spark plug on the desk. Interesting... Maybe they preload hydrogen, let in some oxygen and ignite it. Gives a very sharp pressure/temperature pulse.
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
http://rulev-igor.narod.ru/theme_142.html 11.05.2012, 21:39, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com: At 07:15 PM 5/10/2012, Alan J Fletcher wrote: At 04:42 PM 5/10/2012, ecat builder wrote: Wow. That is a spark plug on that reactor! See Pages 13, 14, 16, 18. Page 18 has a spark plug on the desk. Interesting... Maybe they preload hydrogen, let in some oxygen and ignite it. Gives a very sharp pressure/temperature pulse. I thought this was a neat idea for startup until I realized that this would form water in there, which would then need to be flushed out. I'd think that gas would not be flowing through an operating device, and consumption of hydrogen (requiring flow in) would be very low. It could be a lot more complicated than electrically heating the thing.
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
http://rulev-igor.narod.ru/theme_142.html 11.05.2012, 21:39, Alan J Fletcher a...@well.com: At 04:42 PM 5/10/2012, ecat builder wrote: Wow. That is a spark plug on that reactor! See Pages 13, 14, 16, 18. Page 18 has a spark plug on the desk. Interesting... Maybe they preload hydrogen, let in some oxygen and ignite it. Gives a very sharp pressure/temperature pulse.
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
You suggest an interesting possibility regarding the alternate heating turbulence generator. I agree with you that it does not seem logical to use the spark plugs for temperature measurements. That thought never entered my mind, so I must have done a poor job of describing my ideas. You made a good point about there being several tubes entering the chamber. Why need a special spark plug seal if other techniques work well? One possibility still exists for the spark plug usage that does not involve actual high voltages. DGT needs to have some method of getting heating energy into the active mixture. I wonder if they are merely using the spark plug hot terminal as a moderately large contacting surface for the nickel-hydrogen semi gas mixture? In this way the mixture itself becomes the heating element since I am confident that a measurable impedance exists between the two plugs. This would accept energy in the standard I*I*R format. Jojo, do you have any information concerning the behavior of a nickel-hydrogen mixture as the current flow increases through it? Any idea as to how many amps per square centimeter are required to ionize a portion? My thoughts drift off in the direction of the electrolysis designs where the current density is adequate to cause a vapor barrier and plasma to exist around the cathode. Maybe DGT is lucky by having the vapor barrier built in. Dave -Original Message- From: Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, May 11, 2012 2:57 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies Having 2 spark plugs on both ends, and firing them alternately in groups will cause the hot zone to alternate between the 2 ends. This to me would push the hydrogen back and forth between the 2 ends, as hot hydrogen expands and migrate to the cool end. Timing the sparks properly would create a constant hot hydrogen gas pulse alternating between the 2 ends. And fast flowing hydrogen should carry the nickel nanopowder along for the ride thereby ensuring that the sparks never hit the same powder particles. This to me is a effective means to create turbulence. My approach to creating turbulence is to take advantage of the themosiphon Chimneyeffect. Hot gas flows up and is cooled and then gets pulled along an alternate tube back to the bottom where the spark plug is. I calculated the gas flow in the order of 137m/s within my reactor. Whether this figure is accurate or not, one thing is clear - I have sufficient turbulence. It appears unneccesary to use spark plug for temperature measurements. There appears to be an abundance of thermocouple connections in that reactor. Looking at the reactor end plates, there are a lot of holes for a bunch of different instrument probes. The presence of the spark plug is unneccesary for the purposes you mentioned. To me, sparks appear to be critical for the creation of Rydberg matter as speculated by Axil. I am unfamiliar with the Atomic Battery calculations you are alluding to. Can you please elaborate? Jojo - Original Message - From: David Roberson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies I do see the two plugs at opposite ends of the device but it is not obvious why this configuration would generate a large amount turbulence. The fact that they are using two plugs might indicate that there are two isolated voltage feeds; one positive and the other negative (or AC to balance the effect). This might tend to spread the ion stream along the length of the cylinder. The metal caps at each end of the device are quite thick which explains the long reach plugs. An earlier poster suggested that the plugs were merely used as a means of breaching the metal caps with a high pressure and temperature resistant connector. This might be the reason for the plugs if we follow their reasoning since spark plugs are used in ICE in that manner. Of course they also carry the high voltage to activate the plugs in those services. There may be good logic associated with the spark induced ion current injection. I once looked at that from a different perspective. I calculated the induced current associated with an atomic battery that operated with beta plus decays that would occur according to Rossi's original paper. It was a while back in time but I recall that several milliamps of current would be induced at the power level of a few kilowatts. I can reproduce the number if it is of additional interest. If the current is in the form of protons required to interact then it should not be too difficult to generate the necessary number by spark ionization. I have to wonder how effeciently the protons interact with the nickel active regions when origniated in this manner. I note that you mention that you use
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
Noticed that too. Very heavy on marketing, very light on development which considering how big a deal the first successful commercial LENR development would is as a technology would be very short sighted. Being charitable maybe they already have a large technical staff, or maybe they plan on outsourcing a lot of engineering development (though not from looks of planning to build factory). It does make me a bit suspicious. On 11 May 2012 19:56, Bastiaan Bergman bastiaan.berg...@gmail.com wrote: 3 Mechanical engineers, 2 Chemical engineers and 1 electrical 26 other (sales, overhead) Quite a different ratio from the typical Silicon Valley start-up And no phycisist, no word about radiation, nuclear physics, analysis techniques that could reveal the details of the proces,.. Not even job descriptions, or is that just my browser? On 5/11/12, Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com wrote: On 2012-05-10 20:17, Akira Shirakawa wrote: Hello group, DGT also updated their Job Positions page here: http://www.defkalion-energy.com/jobs Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
At 11:56 AM 5/11/2012, Bastiaan Bergman wrote: 3 Mechanical engineers, 2 Chemical engineers and 1 electrical 26 other (sales, overhead) Quite a different ratio from the typical Silicon Valley start-up And no phycisist, no word about radiation, nuclear physics, analysis techniques that could reveal the details of the proces,.. The previous 21 jobs were mostly development. (Albeit no physicists). Those are not re-listed, so they presumably had enough applicants. (Not a problem, I suspect, in Greece).
RE: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
Would you guys relax... they've had people working on this for close to a year, so the main RD staff (physicists and engineers) were hired long ago. These jobs are mainly just for support and manufacturing. -mark -Original Message- From: Alan J Fletcher [mailto:a...@well.com] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 12:21 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies At 11:56 AM 5/11/2012, Bastiaan Bergman wrote: 3 Mechanical engineers, 2 Chemical engineers and 1 electrical 26 other (sales, overhead) Quite a different ratio from the typical Silicon Valley start-up And no phycisist, no word about radiation, nuclear physics, analysis techniques that could reveal the details of the proces,.. The previous 21 jobs were mostly development. (Albeit no physicists). Those are not re-listed, so they presumably had enough applicants. (Not a problem, I suspect, in Greece).
RE: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
Assuming they have progressed and are feeling confident of market introduction, then this is what you'd expect. One mistake many startups make is to hire the sales/marketing/cust-srvc way too early... not much for those folks to do when you don't even know if you're going to have a viable product! In DGT's case, with such a new and unknown technology, they should have put ~70% of their human resources into the technical expertise needed for RD. Now that they (hopefully) are past the risky part and near certainty on first market introduction, it's time to build up the sales, marketing, manufacturing, customer service, etc. resources. -mark -Original Message- From: MarkI-ZeroPoint [mailto:zeropo...@charter.net] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 2:48 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies Would you guys relax... they've had people working on this for close to a year, so the main RD staff (physicists and engineers) were hired long ago. These jobs are mainly just for support and manufacturing. -mark -Original Message- From: Alan J Fletcher [mailto:a...@well.com] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 12:21 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies At 11:56 AM 5/11/2012, Bastiaan Bergman wrote: 3 Mechanical engineers, 2 Chemical engineers and 1 electrical 26 other (sales, overhead) Quite a different ratio from the typical Silicon Valley start-up And no phycisist, no word about radiation, nuclear physics, analysis techniques that could reveal the details of the proces,.. The previous 21 jobs were mostly development. (Albeit no physicists). Those are not re-listed, so they presumably had enough applicants. (Not a problem, I suspect, in Greece).
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
If you recall our past discussions (Re: Excess heat due to proton pairing in metal hydrides) about the DGT maintenance process of periodically venting the hydrogen envelope and occasionally vacuuming the nickel powder. I suggested that this procedure was to mitigate the “quiescence” problem whose causation is localized in the hydrogen envelope. What this maintenance procedure would do is reduce to low levels, the “secret sauce” additive. This catalyst would need to be reformulated and reactivated after envelope venting. The function of the second spark plug is rebuild the nano-structures of the “secret sauce” when the DGT reactor is restarted. There must be a large resource of functional additive precursor compound that is in close proximity to the plasma end on the second spark plug. In the Rossi reactor, the functional additive is only formulated at the initial startup and is maintained for long term running. But in the DGT reactor which can be restarted many times on-site, the functional additive must be rebuilt after each on-site maintenance procedure. The second plug is only activated for a short timeframe until the functional additive is vaporized from a powdered or a solid feedstock compound packed closely around the plasma end of the second spark plug. Cheers: Axil On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 2:56 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: ** Having 2 spark plugs on both ends, and firing them alternately in groups will cause the hot zone to alternate between the 2 ends. This to me would push the hydrogen back and forth between the 2 ends, as hot hydrogen expands and migrate to the cool end. Timing the sparks properly would create a constant hot hydrogen gas pulse alternating between the 2 ends. And fast flowing hydrogen should carry the nickel nanopowder along for the ride thereby ensuring that the sparks never hit the same powder particles. This to me is a effective means to create turbulence. My approach to creating turbulence is to take advantage of the themosiphon Chimneyeffect. Hot gas flows up and is cooled and then gets pulled along an alternate tube back to the bottom where the spark plug is. I calculated the gas flow in the order of 137m/s within my reactor. Whether this figure is accurate or not, one thing is clear - I have sufficient turbulence. It appears unneccesary to use spark plug for temperature measurements. There appears to be an abundance of thermocouple connections in that reactor. Looking at the reactor end plates, there are a lot of holes for a bunch of different instrument probes. The presence of the spark plug is unneccesary for the purposes you mentioned. To me, sparks appear to be critical for the creation of Rydberg matter as speculated by Axil. I am unfamiliar with the Atomic Battery calculations you are alluding to. Can you please elaborate? Jojo - Original Message - *From:* David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Friday, May 11, 2012 1:24 PM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies I do see the two plugs at opposite ends of the device but it is not obvious why this configuration would generate a large amount turbulence. The fact that they are using two plugs might indicate that there are two isolated voltage feeds; one positive and the other negative (or AC to balance the effect). This might tend to spread the ion stream along the length of the cylinder. The metal caps at each end of the device are quite thick which explains the long reach plugs. An earlier poster suggested that the plugs were merely used as a means of breaching the metal caps with a high pressure and temperature resistant connector. This might be the reason for the plugs if we follow their reasoning since spark plugs are used in ICE in that manner. Of course they also carry the high voltage to activate the plugs in those services. There may be good logic associated with the spark induced ion current injection. I once looked at that from a different perspective. I calculated the induced current associated with an atomic battery that operated with beta plus decays that would occur according to Rossi's original paper. It was a while back in time but I recall that several milliamps of current would be induced at the power level of a few kilowatts. I can reproduce the number if it is of additional interest. If the current is in the form of protons required to interact then it should not be too difficult to generate the necessary number by spark ionization. I have to wonder how effeciently the protons interact with the nickel active regions when origniated in this manner. I note that you mention that you use a different method of creating turbulence in your device. Have you actually build one which has a significant energy gain? Dave -Original Message- From: Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l vortex
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 12:09 PM, Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: Being charitable maybe they already have a large technical staff, or maybe they plan on outsourcing a lot of engineering development (though not from looks of planning to build factory). It does make me a bit suspicious. Another weird detail -- it looks like they might be using Windows XP and Windows Vista. These are relatively old operating systems. You would expect a startup with funding to have newer equipment. Eric
[Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
Hello group, Have a look at this new pdf from DGT, dated May 2012: http://www.defkalion-energy.com/files/2012-05_StatusPicturesFinal.pdf Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
AMAZING :D 2012/5/10 Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com Hello group, Have a look at this new pdf from DGT, dated May 2012: http://www.defkalion-energy.**com/files/2012-05_**StatusPicturesFinal.pdfhttp://www.defkalion-energy.com/files/2012-05_StatusPicturesFinal.pdf Cheers, S.A. -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
Oooo! On page 32... I want that printer! Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
Interesting, P21, 22 are key page for me. But having looked at it for a few minutes it doesn't appear that they are getting particularly good results (though admittedly it is hard to figure what we are looking at and who knows if these are their best results). P21 Power output seems to be approximately the same as Electrical input at about 600W (is this a calibration run?). P22 Appears that they are using flow calorimetry with 2.5L/min (42g/s) and a 30°C input temp with 60°C output and about 20minute long run. Seems to be about 5kW Electric - Total Power In and maybe up to 8kW Water Heater Power Out for a COP of about 1.6? I would find that quite credible if you consider that Brillouin is claiming about COP of 2.1, and a number of others are around that level too. Why oh why can't they just release some data rather than hinting at it with a photo of the output results? On 10 May 2012 19:17, Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com wrote: Hello group, Have a look at this new pdf from DGT, dated May 2012: http://www.defkalion-energy.**com/files/2012-05_**StatusPicturesFinal.pdfhttp://www.defkalion-energy.com/files/2012-05_StatusPicturesFinal.pdf Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: Why oh why can't they just release some data rather than hinting at it with a photo of the output results? Amen. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
If you look at the metadata, the piccys are called Melich Pictures, presumably taken by Mitchell Melich. T
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
Specifically Melich pics #.jpg. On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: If you look at the metadata, the piccys are called Melich Pictures, presumably taken by Mitchell Melich. T
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
That would be Mitchell's son Michael. New Energy Times - Issue #36:Cold Fusion Versus LENR: Competing Ideologies John On May 10, 2012, at 12:58 PM, Terry Blanton wrote: If you look at the metadata, the piccys are called Melich Pictures, presumably taken by Mitchell Melich. T
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
The data is finally beginning to trickle in. Thank you DGT for improving my day. Now, just let us know when your design is going to become available in the market. Dave -Original Message- From: Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, May 10, 2012 2:17 pm Subject: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies Hello group, Have a look at this new pdf from DGT, dated May 2012: http://www.defkalion-energy.com/files/2012-05_StatusPicturesFinal.pdf Cheers, .A.
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
The basic message: Engineering trumps (theoretical) physics. Reminds me of the faster-than-light-speed guys at CERN, who had a hard time to distinguish a loose contact from from a fundamental readjustment of their theories. Amen. -Original Message- From: Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, May 10, 2012 2:17 pm Subject: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies Hello group, Have a look at this new pdf from DGT, dated May 2012: http://www.defkalion-energy.com/files/2012-05_StatusPicturesFinal.pdf Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
Wow. That is a spark plug on that reactor! See Pages 13, 14, 16, 18. Page 18 has a spark plug on the desk. Interesting... Seems like an easy way to make it go.. (at least easier than a microwave or other ideas out there..) Anyone know what that blue and orange device is on page 14? I was trying to figure out the location of the factory from google maps.. You can line up the view with the peaks on the left side and the Xanthi Taxiarchon Monestary on the right side.. Seems to put it in the area of the LENR-heated Police Academy and the other suspected factory (24.8674,41.1188) This factory (with overhead crane) look brand new.. People are spending some cash, which makes me hopeful that some due diligence has been done. Good stuff! - Brad On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 11:17 AM, Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com wrote: Hello group, Have a look at this new pdf from DGT, dated May 2012: http://www.defkalion-energy.com/files/2012-05_StatusPicturesFinal.pdf Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
At 04:42 PM 5/10/2012, ecat builder wrote: Wow. That is a spark plug on that reactor! See Pages 13, 14, 16, 18. Page 18 has a spark plug on the desk. Interesting... Maybe they preload hydrogen, let in some oxygen and ignite it. Gives a very sharp pressure/temperature pulse.
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
It is a spark plug. This has interesting implications. I wonder if it requires high octane to operate? Dave -Original Message- From: ecat builder ecatbuil...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, May 10, 2012 7:42 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies Wow. That is a spark plug on that reactor! See Pages 13, 14, 16, 18. age 18 has a spark plug on the desk. Interesting... Seems like an easy way to make it go.. (at least easier than a icrowave or other ideas out there..) Anyone know what that blue and orange device is on page 14? I was trying to figure out the location of the factory from google aps.. You can line up the view with the peaks on the left side and he Xanthi Taxiarchon Monestary on the right side.. Seems to put it in he area of the LENR-heated Police Academy and the other suspected actory (24.8674,41.1188) This factory (with overhead crane) look brand new.. People are pending some cash, which makes me hopeful that some due diligence has een done. Good stuff! - Brad n Thu, May 10, 2012 at 11:17 AM, Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com wrote: Hello group, Have a look at this new pdf from DGT, dated May 2012: http://www.defkalion-energy.com/files/2012-05_StatusPicturesFinal.pdf Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
At 07:15 PM 5/10/2012, Alan J Fletcher wrote: At 04:42 PM 5/10/2012, ecat builder wrote: Wow. That is a spark plug on that reactor! See Pages 13, 14, 16, 18. Page 18 has a spark plug on the desk. Interesting... Maybe they preload hydrogen, let in some oxygen and ignite it. Gives a very sharp pressure/temperature pulse. I thought this was a neat idea for startup until I realized that this would form water in there, which would then need to be flushed out. I'd think that gas would not be flowing through an operating device, and consumption of hydrogen (requiring flow in) would be very low. It could be a lot more complicated than electrically heating the thing.
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
I doubt that they allow oxygen to enter the system since that would require continual reintroduction during operation. I would guess that the spark plug inserts a stream of electrons and protons at high energy onto the nickel surface. This would raise the effective temperature of the charged particles as they impact the nickel such that a form of warm fusion is occurring. This technique looks significantly different from anything that Rossi has demonstrated. Perhaps they have found the secret key that opens the door to success. Congratulations DGT! Dave -Original Message- From: Alan J Fletcher a...@well.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, May 10, 2012 8:15 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies At 04:42 PM 5/10/2012, ecat builder wrote: Wow. That is a spark plug on that reactor! See Pages 13, 14, 16, 18. Page 18 has a spark plug on the desk. Interesting... Maybe they preload hydrogen, let in some oxygen and ignite t. Gives a very sharp pressure/temperature pulse.
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
Spark plugs make for easily removable/modifiable, cheap and easy high voltage, high current and high temperature electrical feed-throughs into pressure or vacuum vessels. I don't think you can read to much into their use. At 04:42 PM 5/10/2012, ecat builder wrote: Wow. That is a spark plug on that reactor! See Pages 13, 14, 16, 18. Page 18 has a spark plug on the desk. Interesting... Maybe they preload hydrogen, let in some oxygen and ignite it. Gives a very sharp pressure/temperature pulse.
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
This is absolutely pathetic. We have been promised test data over and over again for over a year, and Defkalion has yet again provide something totally different. In my opinion, this is an insult to all those who have been following them. If they wanted to work in the dark they had every opportunity to do so, and share nothing with the public. However, they promised on multiple occasions not only to provide test data, but also data from the certification process, the identities of the testers, protocols for the experiments, and even live webcam footage. Yet again, they have failed to provide any of the MEANINGFUL material they promised to provide. If they were polite, they would apologize for breaking their word, just share nothing at all from this point on, and go black. I'd rather them do that than tease and taunt us with a few images with almost no explanation, after promising us COMPLETE AND FULLY DETAILED TEST DATA WITH LIVE VIDEO! They need to choose one way or the other, as far as I am concerned. Anything else is simply rude. (Yes, I realize a private company does not owe the public anything, but in this case we were promised many things on multiple occasions. If they are not going to keep their word they need to be blunt and tell us, and go black.) From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 9:59 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies At 07:15 PM 5/10/2012, Alan J Fletcher wrote: At 04:42 PM 5/10/2012, ecat builder wrote: Wow. That is a spark plug on that reactor! See Pages 13, 14, 16, 18. Page 18 has a spark plug on the desk. Interesting... Maybe they preload hydrogen, let in some oxygen and ignite it. Gives a very sharp pressure/temperature pulse. I thought this was a neat idea for startup until I realized that this would form water in there, which would then need to be flushed out. I'd think that gas would not be flowing through an operating device, and consumption of hydrogen (requiring flow in) would be very low. It could be a lot more complicated than electrically heating the thing.
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
Dave, I disagree. I think the use of High Voltage Sparks is fundamental in both Rossi's Ecat and the DGT Hyperions. I believe it is the best way to create Ionized Hydrogen for the process. I suspect the bulk heater is used to bring the temps up and then use the Sparks to control the reaction by controlling the amount of Ionized hydrogen available for the process. In a previous thread, (I believe it was To spark or not to spark) I speculated that spikes in temperature were the result of sparks, as no other process could bring hydrogen temps up that quickly and cooling it down just as quickly. Looks like my initial suspicions were correct. Sparks are the Ke, together with the secret sauce. Funny, how DGT uses that long reach spark plug (looks like a Champion 1 long reach spark plug.); same thing that I have used in my spark reactor; albeit used in a slightly different manner. Jojo - Original Message - From: David Roberson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 8:59 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies This technique looks significantly different from anything that Rossi has demonstrated. Dave
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
They made many very specific promises. For example, they stated the results of the Greek certification tests would be revealed very soon over a year ago. They also stated that the tests would not take place without the protocols and other information being revealed before the tests. Although they did at one point say something about the results being subject to the testers, they also made statements they have not lived up to. The fact is that they claim to have a top notch, practical technology that is ready for the market. They bragged about this over a year ago at their big press conference. However, they have provided zero evidence of this to the public, despite them saying they would. At least Rossi allowed a dozen or more tests that clearly demonstrated (in my opinion) he was producing large amounts of excess heat. For example, the 18 hour test performed by Dr. Levi (which produced a constant output of around 15 kilowatts with only around a hundred watts of input) was particularly impressive. Also, the test of the one megawatt plant was also very impressive. Defkalion claims to have improved upon Rossi's technology, but have provided nothing to back up their claims. It's time for Defkalion to apologize, go black, and do their work in total secrecy, or provide some hard data like they have promised. From: Randy Wuller rwul...@freeark.com To: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 9:49 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies I don't think they promised what you claim. Results were always subject to publication by the testers not Defkalion. Sent from my iPhone On May 10, 2012, at 8:34 PM, noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: This is absolutely pathetic. We have been promised test data over and over again for over a year, and Defkalion has yet again provide something totally different. In my opinion, this is an insult to all those who have been following them. If they wanted to work in the dark they had every opportunity to do so, and share nothing with the public. However, they promised on multiple occasions not only to provide test data, but also data from the certification process, the identities of the testers, protocols for the experiments, and even live webcam footage. Yet again, they have failed to provide any of the MEANINGFUL material they promised to provide. If they were polite, they would apologize for breaking their word, just share nothing at all from this point on, and go black. I'd rather them do that than tease and taunt us with a few images with almost no explanation, after promising us COMPLETE AND FULLY DETAILED TEST DATA WITH LIVE VIDEO! They need to choose one way or the other, as far as I am concerned. Anything else is simply rude. (Yes, I realize a private company does not owe the public anything, but in this case we were promised many things on multiple occasions. If they are not going to keep their word they need to be blunt and tell us, and go black.) From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 9:59 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies At 07:15 PM 5/10/2012, Alan J Fletcher wrote: At 04:42 PM 5/10/2012, ecat builder wrote: Wow. That is a spark plug on that reactor! See Pages 13, 14, 16, 18. Page 18 has a spark plug on the desk. Interesting... Maybe they preload hydrogen, let in some oxygen and ignite it. Gives a very sharp pressure/temperature pulse. I thought this was a neat idea for startup until I realized that this would form water in there, which would then need to be flushed out. I'd think that gas would not be flowing through an operating device, and consumption of hydrogen (requiring flow in) would be very low. It could be a lot more complicated than electrically heating the thing.
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
Jojo, I do not recall any evidence of a spark plug or similar device in Rossi's designs. It is true that the internal heating unit was well concealed and not subject to inspection during his first small cylindrical design. Also, I suspect that it would be possible to carefully construct a small spark gap that could be driven by the PWM controller that he used for these tests. Perhaps that is his secret sauce. Do you recall any evidence from his statements that suggests the use of sparks for the purpose you mentioned? I can not remember any mention whatsoever of this process in any of his correspondences. We will only know for sure when we actually get our hands upon some of his products. I suspect that Rossi is having trouble with control of his devices because he depends upon temperature as the main driving force behind the energy production. DGT may have discovered the spark process with one stroke of genius and that is why they are doing so well with their development. Your thoughts about the rapid heating and cooling due to sparks within the hydrogen are interesting. I would be concerned that the local heating due to this effect would be excessive as in a hydrogen torch and would degrade the nickel by melting. How would you distribute the heating so as to alleviate this issue? Dave -Original Message- From: Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, May 10, 2012 9:54 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies Dave, I disagree. I think the use of High Voltage Sparks is fundamental in both Rossi's Ecat and the DGT Hyperions. I believe it is the best way to create Ionized Hydrogen for the process. I suspect the bulk heater is used to bring the temps up and then use the Sparks to control the reaction by controlling the amount of Ionized hydrogen available for the process. In a previous thread, (I believe it was To spark or not to spark) I speculated that spikes in temperature were the result of sparks, as no other process could bring hydrogen temps up that quickly and cooling it down just as quickly. Looks like my initial suspicions were correct. Sparks are the Ke, together with the secret sauce. Funny, how DGT uses that long reach spark plug (looks like a Champion 1 long reach spark plug.); same thing that I have used in my spark reactor; albeit used in a slightly different manner. Jojo - Original Message - From: David Roberson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 8:59 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies This technique looks significantly different from anything that Rossi has demonstrated. Dave
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
Rossi has not mentioned anything about spark plugs, though I suspect that sparks being central to his design, he would misdirect about it. I am of the opinion that those things that are mentioned by Rossi are the wrong ideas, while those things that he is curiously silent about are the key. A basic assumption I am working from is that Rossi would misdirect, while DGT would be more candid. So far, that assumption appears to hold. I believe Rossi calls his high voltage sparks as RF. I've always wondered about the amount of electronics in Rossi's blue box. Seems to me that if you only wanted to control power to a resistance heater, you won't need that tangled web of electronics we saw in his blue box. Those electronics are for some process totalling unrelated to his resistance heating, IMO. Remember one of those videos by Matts Lewan. Krivit rightly mentioned that before Lewan entered the room where the steam output was, there appears to be no steam popping noise. When Lewan entered the room, the steam immediately started popping. When Lewan went back, he caught Rossi red handed with his hands at the controls manipulating something. I speculate that Rossi was manipulating sparks. That's the most logical conclusion for me as no other heating mechanism can instantaneously create lots of heat and steam in the time it takes Lewan to enter the room (probably a few seconds). As for your question on how to distribute the heat, you are right, but the answer is turbulence. In another thread, I speculated that sparking must be accompanied by turbulence and mixing. If not, the sparks would quickly cook and melt the nickel nanostructures critical to the process. A design must be made that would insure that sparks do not follow the same path everrytime, and if it does, it must not pass through the same set of nickel powder particles. Hence, turbulence is key. I have designed my reactor to achieve both these goals. I believe for me, it is now just a matter of hunting for that secret ingredient. Axil's speculation about Cesium being the secret ingredient is quite compelling. Jojo - Original Message - From: David Roberson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies Jojo, I do not recall any evidence of a spark plug or similar device in Rossi's designs. It is true that the internal heating unit was well concealed and not subject to inspection during his first small cylindrical design. Also, I suspect that it would be possible to carefully construct a small spark gap that could be driven by the PWM controller that he used for these tests. Perhaps that is his secret sauce. Do you recall any evidence from his statements that suggests the use of sparks for the purpose you mentioned? I can not remember any mention whatsoever of this process in any of his correspondences. We will only know for sure when we actually get our hands upon some of his products. I suspect that Rossi is having trouble with control of his devices because he depends upon temperature as the main driving force behind the energy production. DGT may have discovered the spark process with one stroke of genius and that is why they are doing so well with their development. Your thoughts about the rapid heating and cooling due to sparks within the hydrogen are interesting. I would be concerned that the local heating due to this effect would be excessive as in a hydrogen torch and would degrade the nickel by melting. How would you distribute the heating so as to alleviate this issue? Dave -Original Message- From: Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, May 10, 2012 9:54 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies Dave, I disagree. I think the use of High Voltage Sparks is fundamental in both Rossi's Ecat and the DGT Hyperions. I believe it is the best way to create Ionized Hydrogen for the process. I suspect the bulk heater is used to bring the temps up and then use the Sparks to control the reaction by controlling the amount of Ionized hydrogen available for the process. In a previous thread, (I believe it was To spark or not to spark) I speculated that spikes in temperature were the result of sparks, as no other process could bring hydrogen temps up that quickly and cooling it down just as quickly. Looks like my initial suspicions were correct. Sparks are the Ke, together with the secret sauce. Funny, how DGT uses that long reach spark plug (looks like a Champion 1 long reach spark plug.); same thing that I have used in my spark reactor; albeit used in a slightly different manner. Jojo - Original Message - From: David Roberson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 8:59 AM Subject: Re: [Vo
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
Another thing, notice on page 24, DGT's reactor has 2 spark plugs mounted co-axially on both ends of the reactor. What is the point of this? What is the point of 2 plugs on both ends? Seems to me that if you wanted more power, all you've got to do is increase the energy on each individual spark and use only one spark plug. I speculate that this is for the purpose of creating turbulent flow. DGT must be firing those plugs alternately, created a rhythm of heating and cooling on both ends of the reactor thereby stimulating turbulent mixing in the reactor. Seems logical for me. I used a different approach in stimulating turbulence. Jojo - Original Message - From: Jojo Jaro To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies Rossi has not mentioned anything about spark plugs, though I suspect that sparks being central to his design, he would misdirect about it. I am of the opinion that those things that are mentioned by Rossi are the wrong ideas, while those things that he is curiously silent about are the key. A basic assumption I am working from is that Rossi would misdirect, while DGT would be more candid. So far, that assumption appears to hold. I believe Rossi calls his high voltage sparks as RF. I've always wondered about the amount of electronics in Rossi's blue box. Seems to me that if you only wanted to control power to a resistance heater, you won't need that tangled web of electronics we saw in his blue box. Those electronics are for some process totalling unrelated to his resistance heating, IMO. Remember one of those videos by Matts Lewan. Krivit rightly mentioned that before Lewan entered the room where the steam output was, there appears to be no steam popping noise. When Lewan entered the room, the steam immediately started popping. When Lewan went back, he caught Rossi red handed with his hands at the controls manipulating something. I speculate that Rossi was manipulating sparks. That's the most logical conclusion for me as no other heating mechanism can instantaneously create lots of heat and steam in the time it takes Lewan to enter the room (probably a few seconds). As for your question on how to distribute the heat, you are right, but the answer is turbulence. In another thread, I speculated that sparking must be accompanied by turbulence and mixing. If not, the sparks would quickly cook and melt the nickel nanostructures critical to the process. A design must be made that would insure that sparks do not follow the same path everrytime, and if it does, it must not pass through the same set of nickel powder particles. Hence, turbulence is key. I have designed my reactor to achieve both these goals. I believe for me, it is now just a matter of hunting for that secret ingredient. Axil's speculation about Cesium being the secret ingredient is quite compelling. Jojo - Original Message - From: David Roberson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies Jojo, I do not recall any evidence of a spark plug or similar device in Rossi's designs. It is true that the internal heating unit was well concealed and not subject to inspection during his first small cylindrical design. Also, I suspect that it would be possible to carefully construct a small spark gap that could be driven by the PWM controller that he used for these tests. Perhaps that is his secret sauce. Do you recall any evidence from his statements that suggests the use of sparks for the purpose you mentioned? I can not remember any mention whatsoever of this process in any of his correspondences. We will only know for sure when we actually get our hands upon some of his products. I suspect that Rossi is having trouble with control of his devices because he depends upon temperature as the main driving force behind the energy production. DGT may have discovered the spark process with one stroke of genius and that is why they are doing so well with their development. Your thoughts about the rapid heating and cooling due to sparks within the hydrogen are interesting. I would be concerned that the local heating due to this effect would be excessive as in a hydrogen torch and would degrade the nickel by melting. How would you distribute the heating so as to alleviate this issue? Dave -Original Message- From: Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, May 10, 2012 9:54 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies Dave, I disagree. I think the use of High Voltage Sparks is fundamental in both Rossi's Ecat and the DGT Hyperions. I believe it is the best way to create Ionized
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
I heard that a long time ago during one of his tests there was a box that was labeled Tesla coil that had a wire that fed into the reactor. I think Rossi has probably experimented with multiple types of radio frequency stimulation, along with electric discharges. By the way, Cesium cannot be the catalyst because Andrea Rossi does not use radioactive elements, unless there is a non radioactive isotope of Cesium. From: Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 11:20 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies Rossi has not mentioned anything about spark plugs, though I suspect that sparks being central to his design, he would misdirect about it. I am of the opinion that those things that are mentioned by Rossi are the wrong ideas, while those things that he is curiously silent about are the key. A basic assumption I am working from is that Rossi would misdirect, while DGT would be more candid. So far, that assumption appears to hold. I believe Rossi calls his high voltage sparks as RF. I've always wondered about the amount of electronics in Rossi's blue box. Seems to me that if you only wanted to control power to a resistance heater, you won't need that tangled web of electronics we saw in his blue box. Those electronics are for some process totalling unrelated to his resistance heating, IMO. Remember one of those videos by Matts Lewan. Krivit rightly mentioned that before Lewan entered the room where the steam output was, there appears to be no steam popping noise. When Lewan entered the room, the steam immediately started popping. When Lewan went back, he caught Rossi red handed with his hands at the controls manipulating something. I speculate that Rossi was manipulating sparks. That's the most logical conclusion for me as no other heating mechanism can instantaneously create lots of heat and steam in the time it takes Lewan to enter the room (probably a few seconds). As for your question on how to distribute the heat, you are right, but the answer is turbulence. In another thread, I speculated that sparking must be accompanied by turbulence and mixing. If not, the sparks would quickly cook and melt the nickel nanostructures critical to the process. A design must be made that would insure that sparks do not follow the same path everrytime, and if it does, it must not pass through the same set of nickel powder particles. Hence, turbulence is key. I have designed my reactor to achieve both these goals. I believe for me, it is now just a matter of hunting for that secret ingredient. Axil's speculation about Cesium being the secret ingredient is quite compelling. Jojo - Original Message - From: David Roberson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies Jojo, I do not recall any evidence of a spark plug or similar device in Rossi's designs. It is true that the internal heating unit was well concealed and not subject to inspection during his first small cylindrical design. Also, I suspect that it would be possible to carefully construct a small spark gap that could be driven by the PWM controller that he used for these tests. Perhaps that is his secret sauce. Do you recall any evidence from his statements that suggests the use of sparks for the purpose you mentioned? I can not remember any mention whatsoever of this process in any of his correspondences. We will only know for sure when we actually get our hands upon some of his products. I suspect that Rossi is having trouble with control of his devices because he depends upon temperature as the main driving force behind the energy production. DGT may have discovered the spark process with one stroke of genius and that is why they are doing so well with their development. Your thoughts about the rapid heating and cooling due to sparks within the hydrogen are interesting. I would be concerned that the local heating due to this effect would be excessive as in a hydrogen torch and would degrade the nickel by melting. How would you distribute the heating so as to alleviate this issue? Dave -Original Message- From: Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, May 10, 2012 9:54 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies Dave, I disagree. I think the use of High Voltage Sparks is fundamental in both Rossi's Ecat and the DGT Hyperions. I believe it is the best way to create Ionized Hydrogen for the process. I suspect the bulk heater is used to bring the temps up and then use the Sparks to control the reaction by controlling the amount of Ionized hydrogen available for the process. In a previous thread, (I believe it was To spark
Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies
I do see the two plugs at opposite ends of the device but it is not obvious why this configuration would generate a large amount turbulence. The fact that they are using two plugs might indicate that there are two isolated voltage feeds; one positive and the other negative (or AC to balance the effect). This might tend to spread the ion stream along the length of the cylinder. The metal caps at each end of the device are quite thick which explains the long reach plugs. An earlier poster suggested that the plugs were merely used as a means of breaching the metal caps with a high pressure and temperature resistant connector. This might be the reason for the plugs if we follow their reasoning since spark plugs are used in ICE in that manner. Of course they also carry the high voltage to activate the plugs in those services. There may be good logic associated with the spark induced ion current injection. I once looked at that from a different perspective. I calculated the induced current associated with an atomic battery that operated with beta plus decays that would occur according to Rossi's original paper. It was a while back in time but I recall that several milliamps of current would be induced at the power level of a few kilowatts. I can reproduce the number if it is of additional interest. If the current is in the form of protons required to interact then it should not be too difficult to generate the necessary number by spark ionization. I have to wonder how effeciently the protons interact with the nickel active regions when origniated in this manner. I note that you mention that you use a different method of creating turbulence in your device. Have you actually build one which has a significant energy gain? Dave -Original Message- From: Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, May 10, 2012 11:31 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies Another thing, notice on page 24, DGT's reactor has 2 spark plugs mounted co-axially on both ends of the reactor. What is the point of this? What is the point of 2 plugs on both ends? Seems to me that if you wanted more power, all you've got to do is increase the energy on each individual spark and use only one spark plug. I speculate that this is for the purpose of creating turbulent flow. DGT must be firing those plugs alternately, created a rhythm of heating and cooling on both ends of the reactor thereby stimulating turbulent mixing in the reactor. Seems logical for me. I used a different approach in stimulating turbulence. Jojo - Original Message - From: Jojo Jaro To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Progress Photographs pdf from Defkalion Green Technologies Rossi has not mentioned anything about spark plugs, though I suspect that sparks being central to his design, he would misdirect about it. I am of the opinion that those things that are mentioned by Rossi are the wrong ideas, while those things that he is curiously silent about are the key. A basic assumption I am working from is that Rossi would misdirect, while DGT would be more candid. So far, that assumption appears to hold. I believe Rossi calls his high voltage sparks as RF. I've always wondered about the amount of electronics in Rossi's blue box. Seems to me that if you only wanted to control power to a resistance heater, you won't need that tangled web of electronics we saw in his blue box. Those electronics are for some process totalling unrelated to his resistance heating, IMO. Remember one of those videos by Matts Lewan. Krivit rightly mentioned that before Lewan entered the room where the steam output was, there appears to be no steam popping noise. When Lewan entered the room, the steam immediately started popping. When Lewan went back, he caught Rossi red handed with his hands at the controls manipulating something. I speculate that Rossi was manipulating sparks. That's the most logical conclusion for me as no other heating mechanism can instantaneously create lots of heat and steam in the time it takes Lewan to enter the room (probably a few seconds). As for your question on how to distribute the heat, you are right, but the answer is turbulence. In another thread, I speculated that sparking must be accompanied by turbulence and mixing. If not, the sparks would quickly cook and melt the nickel nanostructures critical to the process. A design must be made that would insure that sparks do not follow the same path everrytime, and if it does, it must not pass through the same set of nickel powder particles. Hence, turbulence is key. I have designed my reactor to achieve both these goals. I believe for me, it is now just a matter of hunting for that secret ingredient. Axil's speculation about Cesium being the secret ingredient is quite compelling
