Re: Why .Net is on its last legs
Great thread. I've been programming since the 60's (really!) and I am totally appalled by how difficult it is to program in .Net I decided to learn it a few years ago because it seemed all I heard was .Net is the future. I found it the most time-consuming, difficult to debug, language/environment I have ever used. Most of the errors I made were considered valid code and were tediously difficult to locate. It seems every bug required hours of web searching to see if anyone else had the same symptoms. Sure glad I'm back doing my main development in CF. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:330105 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: Why .Net is on its last legs
Personally, I think the productivity comment in .Net is off-base. I've been working in CF since version 1.5. For the past 5 years I've been working in both CF and ASP.Net. Honestly I'm just as productive in ASP.Net as CF at this point, some times more so. It's possible that it has to do with the amount of tools and libraries I've built up over the years. This is just my personal opinion, my time these days is split about 70% .Net and 30% CF so take it for what it's worth. I think most people should at least know the basics in both. Duane -Original Message- From: Bryn Parrott [mailto:bryn_parr...@internode.on.net] Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 10:58 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Why .Net is on its last legs There is plenty of sloppy code in the .Net-i-verse...like you said, it's ultimately about the developer, not the platform. I'm not so sure about that. I've dabbled with .Net on and off over the last couple of years (every time I get depressed about job prospects in .CF ...) and each time I'm driven back to CF's big advantage (as I see it) over .Net - productivity. Microsoft seem to think that developers want to at the lowest level of nuts and bolts needed to put together their programs. By contrast, CF developers can keep their eye at the customers level while delivering applications in half the time taken for equivalent functionality in .Net I ponder the question as to why any Client and CIO would want to spend the extra money on writing an App in .Net (assuming they are aware of the productivity advantages of CF and other technologies); or indeed, on coverting an existing app written in CF to .Net (???) This seems wierd to me. The only answer that comes to mind is possibly that the CIO is interested in justifying his position, it is easy to represent CF as being older technology, and a move to .Net as being a move to newer more robust technology. With .Net he gets to be in charge of a much larger development team, and a bigger budget. Does that line of reasoning hold water ? ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:330068 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Why .Net is on its last legs
I can admit, I have some really sloppy code from my first years as a coder. So did I--like you said, I imagine most did with their first applications. And those were the ones that mattered most. They don't care about frameworks, OO, languages, wire frames, documentation or preferences, they want solutions yesterday and for less money than the other guy. I always took the best of what I knew the most, at that time and delivered it as fast as I could. I agree fast delivery is essential, and it is definitely the most important thing as far as clients are concerned. It makes no sense to be a code snob if that results in the project being 2 weeks past due. On the other hand, the practice of being a disciplined developer usually results in collecting/creating a toolbox of non-business-specific utility functions that you can deploy readily with no development time. I wish I knew how to strike the perfect balance between being fast and being good, but it is fun to keep trying. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:330010 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Why .Net is on its last legs
I wish I knew how to strike the perfect balance... Learn YAGNI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_ain%27t_gonna_need_it :-) On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 7:45 AM, Qing Xia txiasum...@gmail.com wrote: I can admit, I have some really sloppy code from my first years as a coder. So did I--like you said, I imagine most did with their first applications. And those were the ones that mattered most. They don't care about frameworks, OO, languages, wire frames, documentation or preferences, they want solutions yesterday and for less money than the other guy. I always took the best of what I knew the most, at that time and delivered it as fast as I could. I agree fast delivery is essential, and it is definitely the most important thing as far as clients are concerned. It makes no sense to be a code snob if that results in the project being 2 weeks past due. On the other hand, the practice of being a disciplined developer usually results in collecting/creating a toolbox of non-business-specific utility functions that you can deploy readily with no development time. I wish I knew how to strike the perfect balance between being fast and being good, but it is fun to keep trying. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:330011 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Why .Net is on its last legs
Developpers re-use code so much nowadays that it takes 4 gig RAM to do about the same thing we did before in Clipper with 256k ;-)) ROTFL! Made the whole thread worthwhile. This message and any attached documents are only for the use of the intended recipient(s), are confidential and may contain privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, retransmission, or other disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately, and then delete the original message. Thank you. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:330032 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Why .Net is on its last legs
There is plenty of sloppy code in the .Net-i-verse...like you said, it's ultimately about the developer, not the platform. I'm not so sure about that. I've dabbled with .Net on and off over the last couple of years (every time I get depressed about job prospects in .CF ...) and each time I'm driven back to CF's big advantage (as I see it) over .Net - productivity. Microsoft seem to think that developers want to at the lowest level of nuts and bolts needed to put together their programs. By contrast, CF developers can keep their eye at the customers level while delivering applications in half the time taken for equivalent functionality in .Net I ponder the question as to why any Client and CIO would want to spend the extra money on writing an App in .Net (assuming they are aware of the productivity advantages of CF and other technologies); or indeed, on coverting an existing app written in CF to .Net (???) This seems wierd to me. The only answer that comes to mind is possibly that the CIO is interested in justifying his position, it is easy to represent CF as being older technology, and a move to .Net as being a move to newer more robust technology. With .Net he gets to be in charge of a much larger development team, and a bigger budget. Does that line of reasoning hold water ? ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:330063 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Why .Net is on its last legs
Personally, I think it's related to the instable economy. Pack your bags and move your family to Northern Virginia. Those guys are complete clowns! I read somewhere that they are all using Allair Cold Fuzion. -Original Message- From: Tom Kitta [mailto:t...@tomkitta.com] Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 4:11 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Why .Net is on its last legs So I moved to a .Net shop a while back and I can say that .Net is on its last legs. Well, its nice to program these elegant elaborate fully object oriented systems in C# and be able to whip out a console application once in a while, as needed. Sure, it makes one feel smart to throw all these fancy acronyms and names and have a full knowledge that the stuff you work on is so complicated that a mere mortal cannot handle it. The only problem with all of that is that for all of above benefits there is a high price to pay. And that price is development speed. If you need something now, .Net is not a rapid application development platform. Its more of a snail development with detective work... I mean sometimes you are spending a lot of time figuring out where the code is. So if the world needs in the future are for things to be delivered yesterday... .Net is definitely on its last legs unless something even better than latest DB improvements in 4.0 comes out. Or MS just threatens everyone with sudden death. Just my 2c. From: Qing Xia txiasum...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 1:50 PM To: cf-talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs Now, here's the ultimate test: let's post a ASP.NET is dying thread to their mailing list and see if the response is as strong. [?] ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:329982 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: Why .Net is on its last legs
Well, its nice to program these elegant elaborate fully object oriented systems in C# and be able to whip out a console application once in a while, as needed. Sure, it makes one feel smart to throw all these fancy acronyms and names and have a full knowledge that the stuff you work on is so complicated that a mere mortal cannot handle it. But it is object oriented, then one can re-use code ;-) Sure no one was able to re-use code before OOP was invented ;-) Developpers re-use code so much nowadays that it takes 4 gig RAM to do about the same thing we did before in Clipper with 256k ;-)) ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:329983 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Why .Net is on its last legs
I second that. I took a 5-month certificate program for ASP.NET with C# last Spring at a prestigious university in the DC metropolitan area. (Not naming names here) The teacher is an extremely well qualified individual with over half a dozen MS certificates, including one in ASP.NET web development. However, it always seemed to take him forever to write a simple functionality, such as querying against several tables with simple joins and then output the result in a table. One thing I would say in ASP.NET's favor is that it forces developers to use a multi-tier approach to their applications, while CF does not. Now, is that a good thing? I am not sure. If you are a disciplined developer who adheres to best practices and OOP techniques, this seems hardly necessary. If you are new to programming, this enforcement does seem to foster good habits. The unfortunate thing is that sometimes companies decide to blame it on ColdFusion, instead of individual developers, when they discover the tangled web of sloppy code written in ColdFusion. It is our responsibility, as ColdFusion developers, to give it a good reputation. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:329984 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Why .Net is on its last legs
The defense contractors are looking for CF developers here in the US...so not only northern VA, but MD and Ohio as well. If I wanted to move from Chicago (did that once and couldn't get back fast enough...can't get good pizza anywhere else hehehe), there would be quite a few jobs I could get. Eric -Original Message- From: Jason Durham [mailto:jdur...@cti-stl.com] Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 4:26 PM To: cf-talk Subject: RE: Why .Net is on its last legs Personally, I think it's related to the instable economy. Pack your bags and move your family to Northern Virginia. Those guys are complete clowns! I read somewhere that they are all using Allair Cold Fuzion. -Original Message- From: Tom Kitta [mailto:t...@tomkitta.com] Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 4:11 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Why .Net is on its last legs So I moved to a .Net shop a while back and I can say that .Net is on its last legs. Well, its nice to program these elegant elaborate fully object oriented systems in C# and be able to whip out a console application once in a while, as needed. Sure, it makes one feel smart to throw all these fancy acronyms and names and have a full knowledge that the stuff you work on is so complicated that a mere mortal cannot handle it. The only problem with all of that is that for all of above benefits there is a high price to pay. And that price is development speed. If you need something now, .Net is not a rapid application development platform. Its more of a snail development with detective work... I mean sometimes you are spending a lot of time figuring out where the code is. So if the world needs in the future are for things to be delivered yesterday... .Net is definitely on its last legs unless something even better than latest DB improvements in 4.0 comes out. Or MS just threatens everyone with sudden death. Just my 2c. From: Qing Xia txiasum...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 1:50 PM To: cf-talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Subject: Re: Why i fear ColdFusion is on its last legs Now, here's the ultimate test: let's post a ASP.NET is dying thread to their mailing list and see if the response is as strong. [?] ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:329986 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Why .Net is on its last legs
There is plenty of sloppy code in the .Net-i-verse...like you said, it's ultimately about the developer, not the platform. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:329988 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Why .Net is on its last legs
Definitely nothing quite like some good ol' Chicago pizza! Thanks a lot, now you've got me craving some Gino's East, and I'm in Texas! :-( Chicago (...can't get good pizza anywhere else hehehe) ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:329990 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: Why .Net is on its last legs
I feel your pain Matt...I lived in SW Louisiana for 8 years and only got the real thing once a year when I came home for the holidays. While I love Cajun food with a passion, not a real pizza to be found anywhere. Eric -Original Message- From: Matt Quackenbush [mailto:quackfu...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 5:09 PM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Why .Net is on its last legs Definitely nothing quite like some good ol' Chicago pizza! Thanks a lot, now you've got me craving some Gino's East, and I'm in Texas! :-( Chicago (...can't get good pizza anywhere else hehehe) ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:329994 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: Why .Net is on its last legs
I can admit, I have some really sloppy code from my first years as a coder. Everyone does, or they are just waisting too much time refactoring or needless optimization. I really had no clue whatsoever what the heck I was doing. In fact I still have no clue 9 years later though I am managing it better and have learned a lot. However most of the CFML assembled still is in production today... a huge amount of it. I would say 95% has not been touched since it was launched and probably never will. I just concentrated on making stuff work, and though I was no programmer, CFML stuff did work. Most of my code is intranet, so the public never see's the apps, or hears about them. In fact most of my work is not really even application development, it is granular code for specific purpose solutions for manufacturing and product life cycles. And-- with CFML I got stuff done, a lot of stuff, and I got that stuff done fast (RAD) which made the people who sign my checks happy. And those were the ones that mattered most. They don't care about frameworks, OO, languages, wire frames, documentation or preferences, they want solutions yesterday and for less money than the other guy. I always took the best of what I knew the most, at that time and delivered it as fast as I could. I use .NET, asp, and Java too; Not a lot, but I do know enough about them now, that I would have never been able to do my job as well as I did if I used them exclusively. If I told a client I re factored that 5 year old X machine logging app that keeps track of a washing machine quo to a new OOP/AJAX/NUKE code base, or the latest X fad framework/sqlserver/database just because I wanted to clean up the code or update to .NET 3.0, I would lose the client. The CFML just works, years later. no changes. It may be dusty. But its not dead. ~| Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:329998 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
