Re: [Computer-go] Zen blunder in long mirror go game
Von: Nick Wedd n...@maproom.co.uk On 16/01/2012 22:58, Ingo Althöfer wrote: Has that mirror player been punished? Playing mirror Go may annoy the opponent, but it is perfectly legal, and is not against the KGS Terms of Service. I very much hope that no player has been punished for it. To clarify: my question was not meant as a request. I simply had wondered why the game (supposedly to have been played on November 23) was not in the archive. I realise that opponents who play mirror Go are inconvenient for bot develpoers. ... But regarding mirror Go, I believe that the way it is handled is correct. Agreed. Inconvenient opponents (except for rating cheaters) will help to improve bots in the long run. (See the acceptance of dynamic komi in handicap games.) Ingo. -- NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie! Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Zen blunder in long mirror go game
My apologize, I trusted too much that GnuGo's score estimator would have handled Chinese rules. So end result was not w+½ but b+½, because black filled the last dame. It looks like that indeed mirror go in handicap games is a problem for gobots. I think that if it is abusive then it should be dealed as any other sandbagging or rating abuse, i.e. deranking. I do not see that singular mirror go trials (because they played in Hikaru no Go mirror go) are problem, because it is extremely boring, if you are going to do this in large and abusive scale. I once tried it against MFGo in even game, and I was shocked when I realized that I was behind about 6 points. All the efforts were ruined! –Jouni On 17 January 2012 13:43, Nick Wedd n...@maproom.co.uk wrote: On 16/01/2012 22:58, Ingo Althöfer wrote: 23 november 2011 Zen19D (5d) vs need9d (4d) (just in case attachment is removed) Why is that game no longer in the archives of KGS? See at http://www.gokgs.com/**gameArchives.jsp?user=need9d**year=2011month=11http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=need9dyear=2011month=11 Has that mirror player been punished? Playing mirror Go may annoy the opponent, but it is perfectly legal, and is not against the KGS Terms of Service. I very much hope that no player has been punished for it. I realise that opponents who play mirror Go are inconvenient for bot develpoers. I also know that some KGS users play mirror Go against stronger bots, to improve their ratings above what they deserve. I believe that this is not going to change. Often, when a request is made to KGS developer 'wms' to change KGS's behaviour, he refuses, and I think that's a pity, it would be an improvement. But regarding mirror Go, I believe that the way it is handled is correct. Developers can use the censor feature on users who repeatedly play mirror Go. Nick -- Nick Wedd n...@maproom.co.uk __**_ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/computer-gohttp://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Zen blunder in long mirror go game
On 1/17/12 4:38 AM, Jouni Valkonen wrote: My apologize, I trusted too much that GnuGo's score estimator would have handled Chinese rules. So end result was not w+½ but b+½, because black filled the last dame. It looks like that indeed mirror go in handicap games is a problem for gobots. I think that if it is abusive then it should be dealed as any other sandbagging or rating abuse, i.e. deranking. I do not see that singular mirror go trials (because they played in Hikaru no Go mirror go) are problem, because it is extremely boring, if you are going to do this in large and abusive scale. I once tried it against MFGo in even game, and I was shocked when I realized that I was behind about 6 points. All the efforts were ruined! –Jouni There are ways to handle mane-go, which is a valid way to play. For instance, I have an sgf of a game between Cornel Burzo as W and a Euro 5d as B at h4 free placement. The Euro 5d made a ponnuki around k10 with his handi stones and then played mane-go. Cornel won the game. There is no reason to consider mane-go abusive. ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Zen blunder in long mirror go game
Hello, no chance for John Tromp to use such an approach. In that game komi was 0.5, but John has (tonight) play against 7.5. One weird mistake of zen (5d) against a 4d player on kgs, who played mirror till the end except last move, where Zen self-remove liberties on a string, thus breaking seki and causing Zen to resign -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Zen blunder in long mirror go game
23 november 2011 Zen19D (5d) vs need9d (4d) (just in case attachment is removed) Why is that game no longer in the archives of KGS? See at http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=need9dyear=2011month=11 Has that mirror player been punished? -- NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie! Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Zen blunder in long mirror go game
Date is wrong. Here is the game on KGS: http://files.gokgs.com/games/2011/11/3/Zen19D-need9d-3.sgf http://eidogo.com/#url:http://files.gokgs.com/games/2011/11/3/Zen19D-need9d-3.sgf On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.dewrote: 23 november 2011 Zen19D (5d) vs need9d (4d) (just in case attachment is removed) Why is that game no longer in the archives of KGS? See at http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=need9dyear=2011month=11 Has that mirror player been punished? -- NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie! Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Zen blunder in long mirror go game
If the author looks at it, could you update us? I'm always curious about how such things happen, especially in a bot as strong as Zen. On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 6:02 PM, Andy andy.olsen...@gmail.com wrote: Date is wrong. Here is the game on KGS: http://files.gokgs.com/games/2011/11/3/Zen19D-need9d-3.sgf http://eidogo.com/#url:http://files.gokgs.com/games/2011/11/3/Zen19D-need9d-3.sgf On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Ingo Althöfer 3-hirn-ver...@gmx.dewrote: 23 november 2011 Zen19D (5d) vs need9d (4d) (just in case attachment is removed) Why is that game no longer in the archives of KGS? See at http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=need9dyear=2011month=11 Has that mirror player been punished? -- NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zurück-Garantie! Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Zen blunder in long mirror go game
(2012/01/17 8:43), Michael Williams wrote: If the author looks at it, could you update us? I'm always curious about how such things happen, especially in a bot as strong as Zen. Honestly I don't want to spend a lot of time on this type of problem. -- Yamato ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Zen blunder in long mirror go game
In the last UEC Cup, the Japanese program katsunari played with mirror Go strategy against Zen, Fuego and ManyFaces. katsunari lost all three games. http://jsb.cs.uec.ac.jp/~igo/eng/result_2nd/Zen-katsunari.sgf.html http://jsb.cs.uec.ac.jp/~igo/eng/result_2nd/katsunari-Fuego.sgf.html http://jsb.cs.uec.ac.jp/~igo/eng/result_2nd/katsunari-TheManyFacesofGo.sgf.html Note that Fuego lost the game finally (by filling own territories) because I carelessly set the config with Chinese rules. Anyway, there should be no problem for current strong Go programs on mirror Go strategy in EVEN or tournament games. Aja -原始郵件- From: Yamato Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 5:16 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Zen blunder in long mirror go game (2012/01/17 8:43), Michael Williams wrote: If the author looks at it, could you update us? I'm always curious about how such things happen, especially in a bot as strong as Zen. Honestly I don't want to spend a lot of time on this type of problem. -- Yamato ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Zen blunder in long mirror go game
I think that the main problem was not winning or losing a mirrored game but the blunder in late endgame by playing suicidal move. Perhaps Zen was losing the game, so this was the reason for the blunder. But if Zen was winning, then it was serious bug and it had nothing to do with the mirroring itself. —Jouni On Jan 17, 2012 2:26 AM, Aja Huang ajahu...@gmail.com wrote: In the last UEC Cup, the Japanese program katsunari played with mirror Go strategy against Zen, Fuego and ManyFaces. katsunari lost all three games. http://jsb.cs.uec.ac.jp/~igo/**eng/result_2nd/Zen-katsunari.**sgf.htmlhttp://jsb.cs.uec.ac.jp/~igo/eng/result_2nd/Zen-katsunari.sgf.html http://jsb.cs.uec.ac.jp/~igo/**eng/result_2nd/katsunari-**Fuego.sgf.htmlhttp://jsb.cs.uec.ac.jp/~igo/eng/result_2nd/katsunari-Fuego.sgf.html http://jsb.cs.uec.ac.jp/~igo/**eng/result_2nd/katsunari-** TheManyFacesofGo.sgf.htmlhttp://jsb.cs.uec.ac.jp/~igo/eng/result_2nd/katsunari-TheManyFacesofGo.sgf.html Note that Fuego lost the game finally (by filling own territories) because I carelessly set the config with Chinese rules. Anyway, there should be no problem for current strong Go programs on mirror Go strategy in EVEN or tournament games. Aja -原始郵件- From: Yamato Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 5:16 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Zen blunder in long mirror go game (2012/01/17 8:43), Michael Williams wrote: If the author looks at it, could you update us? I'm always curious about how such things happen, especially in a bot as strong as Zen. Honestly I don't want to spend a lot of time on this type of problem. -- Yamato __**_ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/computer-gohttp://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go __**_ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/computer-gohttp://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Zen blunder in long mirror go game
I am not talking about that Zen’s “blunder” but simply mentioned in passing about handling mirroring strategy that Yamato and we don’t want to spend time with. For this game, you should be strong enough to judge Zen was winning or not. Aja From: Jouni Valkonen Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 5:33 PM To: Aja Huang ; computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Zen blunder in long mirror go game I think that the main problem was not winning or losing a mirrored game but the blunder in late endgame by playing suicidal move. Perhaps Zen was losing the game, so this was the reason for the blunder. But if Zen was winning, then it was serious bug and it had nothing to do with the mirroring itself. —Jouni On Jan 17, 2012 2:26 AM, Aja Huang ajahu...@gmail.com wrote: In the last UEC Cup, the Japanese program katsunari played with mirror Go strategy against Zen, Fuego and ManyFaces. katsunari lost all three games. http://jsb.cs.uec.ac.jp/~igo/eng/result_2nd/Zen-katsunari.sgf.html http://jsb.cs.uec.ac.jp/~igo/eng/result_2nd/katsunari-Fuego.sgf.html http://jsb.cs.uec.ac.jp/~igo/eng/result_2nd/katsunari-TheManyFacesofGo.sgf.html Note that Fuego lost the game finally (by filling own territories) because I carelessly set the config with Chinese rules. Anyway, there should be no problem for current strong Go programs on mirror Go strategy in EVEN or tournament games. Aja -原始郵件- From: Yamato Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 5:16 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Zen blunder in long mirror go game (2012/01/17 8:43), Michael Williams wrote: If the author looks at it, could you update us? I'm always curious about how such things happen, especially in a bot as strong as Zen. Honestly I don't want to spend a lot of time on this type of problem. -- Yamato ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Zen blunder in long mirror go game
Aja, you are talking something that has zero relevance for this topic. Zen was winning by ½ point, but it miscalculated in late yose and blundered severely. This was serious endgame bug. This thread has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the game was mirrored, but only that that Zen throw away the game in late yose. I have seen in my own games several times, when Zen has blundered in late yose and have lost a won games. I think that it is due that zen is winning by half point or so, but miscalculates and then tries something irrational. It would be good idea to analyze, to see what went wrong with Zen's evaluation of the score. Was that it miscalculated the territory or did it misread the seki thing? –Jouni On 17 January 2012 02:44, Aja Huang ajahu...@gmail.com wrote: I am not talking about that Zen’s “blunder” but simply mentioned in passing about handling mirroring strategy that Yamato and we don’t want to spend time with. For this game, you should be strong enough to judge Zen was winning or not. Aja *From:* Jouni Valkonen jounivalko...@gmail.com *Sent:* Monday, January 16, 2012 5:33 PM *To:* Aja Huang ajahu...@gmail.com ; computer-go@dvandva.org *Subject:* Re: [Computer-go] Zen blunder in long mirror go game I think that the main problem was not winning or losing a mirrored game but the blunder in late endgame by playing suicidal move. Perhaps Zen was losing the game, so this was the reason for the blunder. But if Zen was winning, then it was serious bug and it had nothing to do with the mirroring itself. —Jouni On Jan 17, 2012 2:26 AM, Aja Huang ajahu...@gmail.com wrote: In the last UEC Cup, the Japanese program katsunari played with mirror Go strategy against Zen, Fuego and ManyFaces. katsunari lost all three games. http://jsb.cs.uec.ac.jp/~igo/**eng/result_2nd/Zen-katsunari.**sgf.htmlhttp://jsb.cs.uec.ac.jp/~igo/eng/result_2nd/Zen-katsunari.sgf.html http://jsb.cs.uec.ac.jp/~igo/**eng/result_2nd/katsunari-**Fuego.sgf.htmlhttp://jsb.cs.uec.ac.jp/~igo/eng/result_2nd/katsunari-Fuego.sgf.html http://jsb.cs.uec.ac.jp/~igo/**eng/result_2nd/katsunari-** TheManyFacesofGo.sgf.htmlhttp://jsb.cs.uec.ac.jp/~igo/eng/result_2nd/katsunari-TheManyFacesofGo.sgf.html Note that Fuego lost the game finally (by filling own territories) because I carelessly set the config with Chinese rules. Anyway, there should be no problem for current strong Go programs on mirror Go strategy in EVEN or tournament games. Aja -原始郵件- From: Yamato Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 5:16 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Zen blunder in long mirror go game (2012/01/17 8:43), Michael Williams wrote: If the author looks at it, could you update us? I'm always curious about how such things happen, especially in a bot as strong as Zen. Honestly I don't want to spend a lot of time on this type of problem. -- Yamato __**_ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/computer-gohttp://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go __**_ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/computer-gohttp://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Zen blunder in long mirror go game
OK, I see your point. So it should be Yamato reply the question if he like. :) Aja From: Jouni Valkonen Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 6:45 PM To: Aja Huang ; computer-go Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Zen blunder in long mirror go game Aja, you are talking something that has zero relevance for this topic. Zen was winning by ½ point, but it miscalculated in late yose and blundered severely. This was serious endgame bug. This thread has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the game was mirrored, but only that that Zen throw away the game in late yose. I have seen in my own games several times, when Zen has blundered in late yose and have lost a won games. I think that it is due that zen is winning by half point or so, but miscalculates and then tries something irrational. It would be good idea to analyze, to see what went wrong with Zen's evaluation of the score. Was that it miscalculated the territory or did it misread the seki thing? –Jouni On 17 January 2012 02:44, Aja Huang ajahu...@gmail.com wrote: I am not talking about that Zen’s “blunder” but simply mentioned in passing about handling mirroring strategy that Yamato and we don’t want to spend time with. For this game, you should be strong enough to judge Zen was winning or not. Aja From: Jouni Valkonen Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 5:33 PM To: Aja Huang ; computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Zen blunder in long mirror go game I think that the main problem was not winning or losing a mirrored game but the blunder in late endgame by playing suicidal move. Perhaps Zen was losing the game, so this was the reason for the blunder. But if Zen was winning, then it was serious bug and it had nothing to do with the mirroring itself. —Jouni On Jan 17, 2012 2:26 AM, Aja Huang ajahu...@gmail.com wrote: In the last UEC Cup, the Japanese program katsunari played with mirror Go strategy against Zen, Fuego and ManyFaces. katsunari lost all three games. http://jsb.cs.uec.ac.jp/~igo/eng/result_2nd/Zen-katsunari.sgf.html http://jsb.cs.uec.ac.jp/~igo/eng/result_2nd/katsunari-Fuego.sgf.html http://jsb.cs.uec.ac.jp/~igo/eng/result_2nd/katsunari-TheManyFacesofGo.sgf.html Note that Fuego lost the game finally (by filling own territories) because I carelessly set the config with Chinese rules. Anyway, there should be no problem for current strong Go programs on mirror Go strategy in EVEN or tournament games. Aja -原始郵件- From: Yamato Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 5:16 PM To: computer-go@dvandva.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Zen blunder in long mirror go game (2012/01/17 8:43), Michael Williams wrote: If the author looks at it, could you update us? I'm always curious about how such things happen, especially in a bot as strong as Zen. Honestly I don't want to spend a lot of time on this type of problem. -- Yamato ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Zen blunder in long mirror go game
(2012/01/17 10:45), Jouni Valkonen wrote: Aja, you are talking something that has zero relevance for this topic. Zen was winning by ½ point, but it miscalculated in late yose and blundered severely. This was serious endgame bug. This thread has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the game was mirrored, but only that that Zen throw away the game in late yose. I don't think Zen was winning. I have seen in my own games several times, when Zen has blundered in late yose and have lost a won games. I think that it is due that zen is winning by half point or so, but miscalculates and then tries something irrational. It would be good idea to analyze, to see what went wrong with Zen's evaluation of the score. Was that it miscalculated the territory or did it misread the seki thing? In this case, the problem was seki handling. But I already have numerous examples of misevaluation, so it is not a special one. Yamato ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
Re: [Computer-go] Zen blunder in long mirror go game
2012/1/17 Yamato yamato...@yahoo.co.jp (2012/01/17 10:45), Jouni Valkonen wrote: Aja, you are talking something that has zero relevance for this topic. Zen was winning by ½ point, but it miscalculated in late yose and blundered severely. This was serious endgame bug. This thread has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the game was mirrored, but only that that Zen throw away the game in late yose. I don't think Zen was winning. Yes. Even suppose the center groups were seki. In Japanese rule, the result was probably W+0.5. However, in Chinese rule, because black had one more stone (tengen) in the center, so the result was B+0.25 (Black: 180.75 = 180 (Points) + 2 (Shared) - 0.5 (Komi) / 2) This concludes that Zen was losing in Chinese rule. I have seen in my own games several times, when Zen has blundered in late yose and have lost a won games. I think that it is due that zen is winning by half point or so, but miscalculates and then tries something irrational. It would be good idea to analyze, to see what went wrong with Zen's evaluation of the score. Was that it miscalculated the territory or did it misread the seki thing? In this case, the problem was seki handling. But I already have numerous examples of misevaluation, so it is not a special one. Yamato __**_ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/computer-gohttp://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go -- Chin-Chang Yang ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@dvandva.org http://dvandva.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
