Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
This was an interesting read. I would take a small exception to the first study group being students. I can attest that it is more difficult to have one's mind changed as one gets older ;-) . I'm sure there must be an equation out there for this condition. Regardless, it's worth reading, thanks. Richard P. I think that we all need to keep an open mind (small as it may be) and many different opinions should be welcomed. When science sorts out the various opinions, then we will be closer to fact. An interesting and distressing series apropos this discussion is The Hidden Workings of Our Minds at http://www.spring.org.uk/2007/12/hidden-workings-of-our-minds.php Based on experimental findings... 1. When coming up with their explanations, people don't seem to access the correct thought process(es). If they do then it only happens when the explanation is plausible. 2. Sometimes people do report the correct reason for what they've done, but it's probably only a coincidence. Makes one humble. * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
I just watched a show on the Science Channel, I think. Can't remember what it was called, but it had to do with 7 people of differing abilities who where at the top of their fields and then measuring their intelligence in different ways. However, one of the things brought out in the show was that people get smarter as they get older. It had to do with a Scottish(?) government program that gave a very wide IQ test to the population. They then found these records, found those who were still around and gave them the same test. I think there must have been about a 60-70 year period between the first and second. They said in the show, those given the test were 11. I can remember them saying something about those who later took the test being in their 80s. The mind is a wonderful thing. Learning how it truly functions is something we probably will never do. We could probably mirror our own grasp of it, but fulling comprehending it? I doubt it. Jeff M On Jan 14, 2008, at 12:42 PM, Richard P. wrote: This was an interesting read. I would take a small exception to the first study group being students. I can attest that it is more difficult to have one's mind changed as one gets older ;-) . I'm sure there must be an equation out there for this condition. Regardless, it's worth reading, thanks. Richard P. I think that we all need to keep an open mind (small as it may be) and many different opinions should be welcomed. When science sorts out the various opinions, then we will be closer to fact. An interesting and distressing series apropos this discussion is The Hidden Workings of Our Minds at http://www.spring.org.uk/2007/12/hidden-workings-of-our-minds.php Based on experimental findings... 1. When coming up with their explanations, people don't seem to access the correct thought process(es). If they do then it only happens when the explanation is plausible. 2. Sometimes people do report the correct reason for what they've done, but it's probably only a coincidence. Makes one humble. * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
I just watched a show on the Science Channel, I think. Can't remember what it was called, but it had to do with 7 people of differing abilities who where at the top of their fields and then measuring their intelligence in different ways. However, one of the things brought out in the show was that people get smarter as they get older. I was cleaning up the attic and ran across a college text book from a class I had failed. I remember to this day how opaque certain parts of the text were and how I had skipped over these impossible parts. To my amazement I no longer had any problem reading these parts of the book. * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
The unfortunate part is every time my son brought home his High school PreCalc book, it reminded how much I did not remember Stewart At 08:07 PM 1/14/2008, you wrote: I was cleaning up the attic and ran across a college text book from a class I had failed. I remember to this day how opaque certain parts of the text were and how I had skipped over these impossible parts. To my amazement I no longer had any problem reading these parts of the book. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace Ozark, AL SL 82 * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
The problem with the 1/3 number (even if it is accurate, and it may be) is that it is a highly agregated numbes. It does'nt mean necessarily that a third of every natural resource is gone, clearly some are more exploited than others. Actually her quote about forests is that 4% of the original American forest remains, that I have seen before. mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I never said anyone was crazy. I never said anyone was a fanatical religious nut either. You however just did.First Betty made assumptions about me that weren't true. Then told me essentially that since I disagreed with her I should shut up. She gives zero reason for what she believes. That kind of reasonable discourse looks like zealotry to me. I never said I believed or disbelieved in man made global warming. I just made two points...the video's comments about forests were highly exaggerated and the comments about military spending seemed extremely high but i asked for others to give me some data. No one did, I just got if you want to see it, look it up. I'll now go back to the usual pc's suck/macs are too expensive vitriol already in progress. Mike On Jan 12, 2008 11:19 AM, Michael Lewis wrote: mike sez: Thanks for proviing my point Betty. Mike Proving what point? That someone doing something to help the environment, however small, means someone is a fanatical religious nut? That demeans both science and religion. I suppose you thinking brushing teeth is a religion because, after all, why do something so trivial and boring when one can just go to a dentist and buy a whole new set of teeth some day? Nice debate tactics trying to shut down discussion by simply writing off your opponents as crazy. You might as well just say I know you are but what am I? or I'm rubber, you're glue. It's about as useful. -- Michael Lewis Off Balance Productions [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.offbalance.com * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived Checkout One Laptop Per Child project laptop.org * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
On Jan 13, 2008, at 2:09 AM, Michael Lewis wrote: ...and more. Much was in place even before GreenPeace began making a stink a year or so ago. I wasn't only GreenPeace making a stink about Apple's environmental negligence. Other entities had taken note of the fact as well, and I even posted that info here a couple of months ago. I am a long-time Mac user, FWIW. Steve * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
Most people do not have the time to get the facts about even one of these topics. I used to write environmental analyses for the Dept of Energy so I know first hand how much work it takes to get the real data, find some way to fill in the gaps, and then figure out what it all means. Nobody could do this about all the topics before us and some topics are so murky that there may be few facts to consider. I think the first post in this long thread made a very valid point. As Lincoln told us: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. When someone tries to persuade me with facts that I know are wrong, I tend to tune out the rest of it. On the other hand, sometimes we simplify the facts because there is not enough time to lay out all the facts. A stickler for all the facts may get upset, but laying out all the facts won't change the conclusion. Nope. You only said that these debates turn into religious style arguments and then said Betty proved your point. The implication is anyone who debates this on either side is doing so from fanatical devotion to a cause and not from scientific ideas, and that Betty must be one of those fanatics since she supposedly proved it. * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
Mike, You've proved my point that you don't understand the subject, so you just make up anything to cover up you lack of knowledge. I don't believe in global warming and climate change--that would be a religion, which it's not. There's plenty of scientific facts/evidence to prove it, and little to prove otherwise. Those who deny the significance of climate change have about as much credibility as flat earthers with climate and other scientists. The danger from pollution and the increase in CO2 is significant and can be reversed, whether or not they contribute directly to global warming. People like you who deny the facts so they can avoid remedies are a big part of the problem. I've been involved in the solar energy industry since the late 70s. The $50,000+ in energy costs that we've saved just on our house is cold [or warm], hard cash that we used for college tuition and many other things that we couldn't have afforded using traditional wasteful energy. Unless your religion is money, and you have the science to back you up about climate, you're full of hot air that you can use to heat your house this winter. Global warming is helping the palm trees to grow better in my yard in Maryland. We now have four--three Chamaerops humilis, http://www.floridata.com/ref/C/cham_hum.cfm, and one Rhapidophyllum hystrix, http://www.floridata.com/ref/R/rhapido.cfm. Betty Thanks for proviing my point Betty. Mike On Jan 11, 2008 9:32 PM, b_s-wilk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Environmentalism to the tune of this type of video is a religion. As such I suppose you can keep your faith and I'll keep my lack of. As to the numbers, the Dept. of Agriculture has the forestry numbers. * http://tinyurl.com/2s9eht There you go again!! Whenever there is a very serious issue that someone doesn't understand or doesn't want to be involved with, instead of learning more, or shutting up, all of a sudden it's a RELIGION! NO. WRONG. Science is not a religion. It's based on repeatedly observable facts. * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
Go back to telling people who don't 100% agree with you to shut up Betty, it's a shorter read. Mike On Jan 13, 2008 4:43 PM, b_s-wilk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mike, You've proved my point that you don't understand the subject, so you just make up anything to cover up you lack of knowledge. I don't believe in global warming and climate change--that would be a religion, which it's not. There's plenty of scientific facts/evidence to prove it, and little to prove otherwise. Those who deny the significance of climate change have about as much credibility as flat earthers with climate and other scientists. The danger from pollution and the increase in CO2 is significant and can be reversed, whether or not they contribute directly to global warming. People like you who deny the facts so they can avoid remedies are a big part of the problem. I've been involved in the solar energy industry since the late 70s. The $50,000+ in energy costs that we've saved just on our house is cold [or warm], hard cash that we used for college tuition and many other things that we couldn't have afforded using traditional wasteful energy. Unless your religion is money, and you have the science to back you up about climate, you're full of hot air that you can use to heat your house this winter. Global warming is helping the palm trees to grow better in my yard in Maryland. We now have four--three Chamaerops humilis, http://www.floridata.com/ref/C/cham_hum.cfm, and one Rhapidophyllum hystrix, http://www.floridata.com/ref/R/rhapido.cfm. Betty Thanks for proviing my point Betty. Mike On Jan 11, 2008 9:32 PM, b_s-wilk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Environmentalism to the tune of this type of video is a religion. As such I suppose you can keep your faith and I'll keep my lack of. As to the numbers, the Dept. of Agriculture has the forestry numbers. * http://tinyurl.com/2s9eht There you go again!! Whenever there is a very serious issue that someone doesn't understand or doesn't want to be involved with, instead of learning more, or shutting up, all of a sudden it's a RELIGION! NO. WRONG. Science is not a religion. It's based on repeatedly observable facts. * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
Betty I don't disagree with you. One of the first directives to Humans by God was to subdue the earth, not rape and plunder. Christians believe in conservation and preservation. We do not look at it as a religion. Scripture no where states that we can use up the earth and do with it what we want. Proper stewardship of the resources is one of the most over looked area. The problem with the one web site posted is that it tried to use misleading statistics to prove it's point this will loose you fans real fast who can see through it. We have a problem, we have part of the solution so lets start fixing it where we can. If solar energy were cheaper I would be all for using it right now. I live down south. We pay outrageous electric and natural gas rates. I should be able to heat my house in winter and provide year round hot water with Solar at a reasonable cost. Can't do it yet without a huge outlay. Stewart At 05:43 PM 1/13/2008, you wrote: Mike, You've proved my point that you don't understand the subject, so you just make up anything to cover up you lack of knowledge. I don't believe in global warming and climate change--that would be a religion, which it's not. There's plenty of scientific facts/evidence to prove it, and little to prove otherwise. Those who deny the significance of climate change have about as much credibility as flat earthers with climate and other scientists. The danger from pollution and the increase in CO2 is significant and can be reversed, whether or not they contribute directly to global warming. People like you who deny the facts so they can avoid remedies are a big part of the problem. I've been involved in the solar energy industry since the late 70s. The $50,000+ in energy costs that we've saved just on our house is cold [or warm], hard cash that we used for college tuition and many other things that we couldn't have afforded using traditional wasteful energy. Unless your religion is money, and you have the science to back you up about climate, you're full of hot air that you can use to heat your house this winter. Global warming is helping the palm trees to grow better in my yard in Maryland. We now have four--three Chamaerops humilis, http://www.floridata.com/ref/C/cham_hum.cfm, and one Rhapidophyllum hystrix, http://www.floridata.com/ref/R/rhapido.cfm. Betty Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace Ozark, AL SL 82 * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
Thanks for proviing my point Betty. Mike On Jan 11, 2008 9:32 PM, b_s-wilk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Environmentalism to the tune of this type of video is a religion. As such I suppose you can keep your faith and I'll keep my lack of. As to the numbers, the Dept. of Agriculture has the forestry numbers. * http://tinyurl.com/2s9eht There you go again!! Whenever there is a very serious issue that someone doesn't understand or doesn't want to be involved with, instead of learning more, or shutting up, all of a sudden it's a RELIGION! NO. WRONG. Science is not a religion. It's based on repeatedly observable facts. Would you like the records that we kept for nearly 15 years of weather and energy use in our solar house, and resulting analysis? Why don't you take the time to read the scientific reports by real scientists instead of the ones paid by Exxon, et al. If you had been paying attention to the federal government's record of scientific reports during the Bush administration--or Bush I, or Reagan--you would have noticed that ignorant bureaucrats have been editing and redacting scientific data that they don't like. I use the USDA site often, and many of the more useful--and accurate--reports have been changed to be less useful or removed completely. The White House site for a while listed Thomas Jefferson, founder of the Democratic Party, as a Republican! The scientists who work for the federal government and want to speak out on serious issues are either silenced or fired. Want to do something useful to improve the climate and clean the air? Plant trees. Lots of them. We've planted over 500. You can too. [Back to computers] This might be a good time to consider your next computer, too, and look for the most efficient, best quality, least toxic, most recycleable, longest lasting one you can find. Betty * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
I hope you don't own any macs. http://www.greenpeace.org/apple/about.html Mike On Jan 11, 2008 9:32 PM, b_s-wilk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Want to do something useful to improve the climate and clean the air? Plant trees. Lots of them. We've planted over 500. You can too. [Back to computers] This might be a good time to consider your next computer, too, and look for the most efficient, best quality, least toxic, most recycleable, longest lasting one you can find. Betty * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
I never said anyone was crazy. I never said anyone was a fanatical religious nut either. You however just did.First Betty made assumptions about me that weren't true. Then told me essentially that since I disagreed with her I should shut up. She gives zero reason for what she believes. That kind of reasonable discourse looks like zealotry to me. I never said I believed or disbelieved in man made global warming. I just made two points...the video's comments about forests were highly exaggerated and the comments about military spending seemed extremely high but i asked for others to give me some data. No one did, I just got if you want to see it, look it up. I'll now go back to the usual pc's suck/macs are too expensive vitriol already in progress. Mike On Jan 12, 2008 11:19 AM, Michael Lewis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: mike sez: Thanks for proviing my point Betty. Mike Proving what point? That someone doing something to help the environment, however small, means someone is a fanatical religious nut? That demeans both science and religion. I suppose you thinking brushing teeth is a religion because, after all, why do something so trivial and boring when one can just go to a dentist and buy a whole new set of teeth some day? Nice debate tactics trying to shut down discussion by simply writing off your opponents as crazy. You might as well just say I know you are but what am I? or I'm rubber, you're glue. It's about as useful. -- Michael Lewis Off Balance Productions [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.offbalance.com * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
[CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
This may or may not be off topic for this list but the video is very entertaining and informative and perhaps worth discussion here. http://storyofstuff.com/ Paula IN/USA Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, wine in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming WOO HOO what a ride! Have a wonderful day! * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
On Fri, 11 Jan 2008, mike wrote: Yer right...never mind silly things like facts, as long as you think you are doing something yer ok. I'm curious what facts you think they got wrong? Do you contend that the Earth is NOT finite? Have you found a secret, infinitely long, penninsula of land somewhere? On Jan 11, 2008 11:11 AM, Steve Rigby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 11, 2008, at 12:31 PM, mike wrote: You think a little off topic? Maybe you should have sent that to a moveon.org group. Informative seems to mean fast and loose. Why aren't you out shopping? Steve -- Vicky Staubly http://www.steeds.com/vicky/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
Yer right...never mind silly things like facts, as long as you think you are doing something yer ok. Mike On Jan 11, 2008 11:11 AM, Steve Rigby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 11, 2008, at 12:31 PM, mike wrote: You think a little off topic? Maybe you should have sent that to a moveon.org group. Informative seems to mean fast and loose. Why aren't you out shopping? Steve * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
It certainly is close enough to topic to of interest. We have the tech recycling conversation often enough. It manages to explain why the construction of many tech gadgets is so crappy. If you sell us crap once you need to buy it again three months later. On Jan 11, 2008 1:09 PM, Steve Rigby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 11, 2008, at 11:32 AM, Paula Minor wrote: This may or may not be off topic for this list but the video is very entertaining and informative and perhaps worth discussion here. A very reasoned presentation. I particularly connected with the portion about how we are taught to react to stuff that has been determined to be obsolete, a word that primarily means no longer in use. I am happy to report that I have very little stuff that is obsolete. I have been informed by others that my old computers are obsolete, but because I use them regularly, those suggestions of obsolescence are obviously incorrect. That means that I do not have to go shopping! Yeah! I can save that money instead of spending it. Steve * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
On Jan 11, 2008, at 12:31 PM, mike wrote: You think a little off topic? Maybe you should have sent that to a moveon.org group. Informative seems to mean fast and loose. Why aren't you out shopping? Steve * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
On Jan 11, 2008, at 11:32 AM, Paula Minor wrote: This may or may not be off topic for this list but the video is very entertaining and informative and perhaps worth discussion here. A very reasoned presentation. I particularly connected with the portion about how we are taught to react to stuff that has been determined to be obsolete, a word that primarily means no longer in use. I am happy to report that I have very little stuff that is obsolete. I have been informed by others that my old computers are obsolete, but because I use them regularly, those suggestions of obsolescence are obviously incorrect. That means that I do not have to go shopping! Yeah! I can save that money instead of spending it. Steve * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
You think a little off topic? Maybe you should have sent that to a moveon.org group. Informative seems to mean fast and loose. Mike On Jan 11, 2008 9:32 AM, Paula Minor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This may or may not be off topic for this list but the video is very entertaining and informative and perhaps worth discussion here. http://storyofstuff.com/ Paula IN/USA Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, wine in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming WOO HOO what a ride! Have a wonderful day! * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
She claims we've used 1/3 of the total of earth's natural resource. In her fancy graphic she shows things like trees being cut down...wow a third of all forests are decimated? In 3 decades? wow. Oh wait...forested areas have remained relatively stable since the early 1900's since companies that log these forests know that if you don't plant also they would have been out of business in 1909. Since no one really knows for sure how much coal or oil or natural gas lies under ground it's hard to pinpoint using 1/3 of it in the last 30 years. She also states offhandedly that almost 50% of the federal budget goes to military. Most estimates point closer to 20% even with adjustments made for bush's war(s).This is all in the first few minutes of her introduction. Are things like oil resources and natural gas finite? Sure. I'm all for using alternative energy, anything dumping crap into the air, we should find cleaner ways. I just prefer facts, If you have to convince me with half truths and exaggerations I'll be cynical of your argument. She likes the word crisis...said the same in newsweek in the seventies when global cooling was the 'crisis'. Mike On Jan 11, 2008 12:02 PM, Vicky Staubly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 11 Jan 2008, mike wrote: Yer right...never mind silly things like facts, as long as you think you are doing something yer ok. I'm curious what facts you think they got wrong? Do you contend that the Earth is NOT finite? Have you found a secret, infinitely long, penninsula of land somewhere? On Jan 11, 2008 11:11 AM, Steve Rigby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 11, 2008, at 12:31 PM, mike wrote: You think a little off topic? Maybe you should have sent that to a moveon.org group. Informative seems to mean fast and loose. Why aren't you out shopping? Steve -- Vicky Staubly http://www.steeds.com/vicky/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
On Jan 11, 2008, at 12:30 PM, mike wrote: She claims we've used 1/3 of the total of earth's natural resource. In her fancy graphic she shows things like trees being cut down...wow a third of all forests are decimated? In 3 decades? wow. Oh wait...forested areas have remained relatively stable since the early 1900's since companies that log these forests know that if you don't plant also they would have been out of business in 1909. Wow, no only if the decimation of forest lands and the percentage of those in question related to the USA. Ain't stats wonderful? Relatively stable since the early 1900's? What a joke when it comes to stats. Yes, they have replaced some of the forest taken down when it is to the profit of the company owning or leasing the land for long periods. Of course it took years to realize you can't deforest and only replace with trees that are more profitable. Didn't the Irish potato famine teach them anything? I agree, she's probably misinterpreting facts in some peoples eyes, but when doesn't this occur when $ are involved? 1/3 of the total earths natural resource? That's a joke! It's probably only about 50% of the resource actual humans need to survive. I wish they'd make these distinctions clear. I've long been a believer that once the planet gets tired of us it will just basically shake us off as we do a bad cold. The planet can take care of itself. Of course on the other hand that doesn't say much for our survival here. But being the arrogant users we are we tend to ignore things that slap us in the face. Since no one really knows for sure how much coal or oil or natural gas lies under ground it's hard to pinpoint using 1/3 of it in the last 30 years. Ok, if we only used 25% if it in the last 30 years, what's your point? Under the current level of usage, especially by China, that we've got a good 50-75 years left of coal? If so, then who cares right? She also states offhandedly that almost 50% of the federal budget goes to military. Here again, she's wrong. It's much higher. Im gon't going to do your work for you, but just google it and look at all different sources. And keep in mind, military budget doesn't just cover the cost of a sidewinder missile. It's the whole infrastructure both here and all our bases else where. Any guess as to how many of those there are? And I haven't even started on military funding of other countries. Israel is just a drop in the bucket. Most estimates point closer to 20% even with adjustments made for bush's war(s). Please offer links and/or reference to these most estimates. This is all in the first few minutes of her introduction. Are things like oil resources and natural gas finite? Sure. I'm all for using alternative energy, anything dumping crap into the air, we should find cleaner ways. I just prefer facts, If you have to convince me with half truths and exaggerations I'll be cynical of your argument. She likes the word crisis...said the same in newsweek in the seventies when global cooling was the 'crisis'. Again, you seem to proclaim you don't believe in statements without facts, but you've made nothing but that. If you want to be believed, reference your material. Jeff M Mike * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
She claims we've used 1/3 of the total of earth's natural resource. In her fancy graphic she shows things like trees being cut down...wow a third of all forests are decimated? In 3 decades? wow. Oh wait...forested areas have remained relatively stable since the early 1900's since companies that log these forests know that if you don't plant also they would have been out of business in 1909. Since no one really knows for sure how much coal or oil or natural gas lies under ground it's hard to pinpoint using 1/3 of it in the last 30 years. She also states offhandedly that almost 50% of the federal budget goes to military. Most estimates point closer to 20% even with adjustments made f I love STUFF. I have lots of STUFF so I'm not anti shopping. Mike, I'll see if I can contact the people who made it and find out where they got their facts. It is my understanding.but I DONT have facts yet to support itthat the forestry companies cannot replant trees in large enough numbers to replace the enormous forests that are now just gone forever. ANd in other countries, they aren't always replanting, they're just stripping the trees away and leaving the ground open to erosion. And the destruction of the mountains in W.Virginia , USA, alone has destroyed not only natural beauty but has poisoned the water of nearby streams that people still use, forced the people who've lived on those mountains off their land because of landslides from above and have kept people from accessing their land...and in some cases their family graveyards because the mining companies have bought the land around them and denies them accessat least until the mountain is mined out. Photos of such can be found here: http://ohvec.org/ and here: http://ilovemountains.org/multimedia I am not from W.Va or anyplace where this kind of thing is going on so I don't have a direct interest in it. But I am a consumera big one. I love to shop but if my habits are going to make life miserable for future generations, I think I...and others like me.should at the very least be aware of how we are impacting the future. I didn't take from the movie that we needed to return to prehistoric behavioronly that we should work to lessen the bad stuff that comes out of consumerism by finding cleaner ways to make our 'stuff' and by using renewable basic ingredients. Computers are one of those bits of stuff that contribute to pollution if not disposed of properly. Paula IN/USA Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, wine in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming WOO HOO what a ride! Have a wonderful day! * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
On Jan 11, 2008, at 2:02 PM, Vicky Staubly wrote: I'm curious what facts you think they got wrong? Do you contend that the Earth is NOT finite? Have you found a secret, infinitely long, penninsula of land somewhere? Everybody gets upset when they are reminded of what our President asked us to keep paramount in our minds in the immediate aftermath of the WTC tragedy. It's just that some folks get upset for one reason, while others get upset for another. Steve * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
As I remember, our President asked us to ... keep shopping... ? db Steve Rigby wrote: On Jan 11, 2008, at 2:02 PM, Vicky Staubly wrote: I'm curious what facts you think they got wrong? Do you contend that the Earth is NOT finite? Have you found a secret, infinitely long, penninsula of land somewhere? Everybody gets upset when they are reminded of what our President asked us to keep paramount in our minds in the immediate aftermath of the WTC tragedy. It's just that some folks get upset for one reason, while others get upset for another. Steve * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
On Jan 11, 2008, at 3:30 PM, mike wrote: argument. She likes the word crisis...said the same in newsweek in the seventies when global cooling was the 'crisis'. I think the word crisis was as applicable in the seventies as it is today. In the Big Picture, we do not have a lot of time to fart around. Thirty years is nothing in the Big Picture. I do not recall talk of a global cooling crisis back then. Nothing whatsoever on the scale of the warming trend that actually has been chronicled since at least the early 1900's. There was a very brief period in the '70's when temps overall dipped a bit, but that lasted but a short time and then it was back to generally climbing temps once again. The cooling debate never went beyond but a few advocates of a school of thought that temps were going to be in decline for an extended period of time. It is likely true that about 1/3 of the available resources initially presumed to be available as industrialization dawned are gone, at least temporarily. Not just trees, but all of those resources. That's one reason why there is talk of mining on other planets. Sometimes, new repositories of certain resources are discovered on earth, thus the numbers are always in flux to one degree or another. There is some tree replanting that provides for the continuation of the ability to harvest from those particular areas, but not nearly enough to offset the overall loss of timber worldwide. The United States has most certainly lost a huge hunk of its woodlands. Steve * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
Environmentalism to the tune of this type of video is a religion. As such I suppose you can keep your faith and I'll keep my lack of. As to the numbers, the Dept. of Agriculture has the forestry numbers. * http://tinyurl.com/2s9eht *I suppose someone will say a republican went in and rewrote all the information on government sites when they took over...maybe next election the dems can re write it again. You can find budgets of the Feds in many places. Here is one. http://www.federalbudget.com/ If you have different stats I'd welcome them. I don't mind being wrong. Mike On Jan 11, 2008 2:18 PM, Jeff Miles [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 11, 2008, at 12:30 PM, mike wrote: She claims we've used 1/3 of the total of earth's natural resource. In her fancy graphic she shows things like trees being cut down...wow a third of all forests are decimated? In 3 decades? wow. Oh wait...forested areas have remained relatively stable since the early 1900's since companies that log these forests know that if you don't plant also they would have been out of business in 1909. Wow, no only if the decimation of forest lands and the percentage of those in question related to the USA. Ain't stats wonderful? Relatively stable since the early 1900's? What a joke when it comes to stats. Yes, they have replaced some of the forest taken down when it is to the profit of the company owning or leasing the land for long periods. Of course it took years to realize you can't deforest and only replace with trees that are more profitable. Didn't the Irish potato famine teach them anything? I agree, she's probably misinterpreting facts in some peoples eyes, but when doesn't this occur when $ are involved? 1/3 of the total earths natural resource? That's a joke! It's probably only about 50% of the resource actual humans need to survive. I wish they'd make these distinctions clear. I've long been a believer that once the planet gets tired of us it will just basically shake us off as we do a bad cold. The planet can take care of itself. Of course on the other hand that doesn't say much for our survival here. But being the arrogant users we are we tend to ignore things that slap us in the face. Since no one really knows for sure how much coal or oil or natural gas lies under ground it's hard to pinpoint using 1/3 of it in the last 30 years. Ok, if we only used 25% if it in the last 30 years, what's your point? Under the current level of usage, especially by China, that we've got a good 50-75 years left of coal? If so, then who cares right? She also states offhandedly that almost 50% of the federal budget goes to military. Here again, she's wrong. It's much higher. Im gon't going to do your work for you, but just google it and look at all different sources. And keep in mind, military budget doesn't just cover the cost of a sidewinder missile. It's the whole infrastructure both here and all our bases else where. Any guess as to how many of those there are? And I haven't even started on military funding of other countries. Israel is just a drop in the bucket. Most estimates point closer to 20% even with adjustments made for bush's war(s). Please offer links and/or reference to these most estimates. This is all in the first few minutes of her introduction. Are things like oil resources and natural gas finite? Sure. I'm all for using alternative energy, anything dumping crap into the air, we should find cleaner ways. I just prefer facts, If you have to convince me with half truths and exaggerations I'll be cynical of your argument. She likes the word crisis...said the same in newsweek in the seventies when global cooling was the 'crisis'. Again, you seem to proclaim you don't believe in statements without facts, but you've made nothing but that. If you want to be believed, reference your material. Jeff M Mike * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
The US has more forests now than it did in the early 1900's. The greatest loss of forest land at present is occurring in the Brazilian rain forest due to both planed deforestation and poaching of lumber. (I have a charted forester in my congregation.) Stewart At 06:23 PM 1/11/2008, you wrote: There is some tree replanting that provides for the continuation of the ability to harvest from those particular areas, but not nearly enough to offset the overall loss of timber worldwide. The United States has most certainly lost a huge hunk of its woodlands. Steve Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace Ozark, AL SL 82 * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
Don't let em fool you with the facts, Rev. We don't have any forests. Mike On Jan 11, 2008 5:35 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The US has more forests now than it did in the early 1900's. The greatest loss of forest land at present is occurring in the Brazilian rain forest due to both planed deforestation and poaching of lumber. (I have a charted forester in my congregation.) Stewart At 06:23 PM 1/11/2008, you wrote: There is some tree replanting that provides for the continuation of the ability to harvest from those particular areas, but not nearly enough to offset the overall loss of timber worldwide. The United States has most certainly lost a huge hunk of its woodlands. Steve Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace Ozark, AL SL 82 * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
In 30 years we'll hear the same thing...I don't recall anything about a global warming crisis. http://www.denisdutton.com/cooling_world.htm http://scottthong.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/newsweek1975globalcooling.JPG The newsweek article. The really funny part is the graph...look at the GLOBAL WARMING CRISIS taking place from 1880 to 1930's. I can't believe we made it. whew. Mike On Jan 11, 2008 5:23 PM, Steve Rigby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 11, 2008, at 3:30 PM, mike wrote: argument. She likes the word crisis...said the same in newsweek in the seventies when global cooling was the 'crisis'. I think the word crisis was as applicable in the seventies as it is today. In the Big Picture, we do not have a lot of time to fart around. Thirty years is nothing in the Big Picture. I do not recall talk of a global cooling crisis back then. Nothing whatsoever on the scale of the warming trend that actually has been chronicled since at least the early 1900's. There was a very brief period in the '70's when temps overall dipped a bit, but that lasted but a short time and then it was back to generally climbing temps once again. The cooling debate never went beyond but a few advocates of a school of thought that temps were going to be in decline for an extended period of time. It is likely true that about 1/3 of the available resources initially presumed to be available as industrialization dawned are gone, at least temporarily. Not just trees, but all of those resources. That's one reason why there is talk of mining on other planets. Sometimes, new repositories of certain resources are discovered on earth, thus the numbers are always in flux to one degree or another. There is some tree replanting that provides for the continuation of the ability to harvest from those particular areas, but not nearly enough to offset the overall loss of timber worldwide. The United States has most certainly lost a huge hunk of its woodlands. Steve * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
On Jan 11, 2008, at 4:26 PM, mike wrote: Environmentalism to the tune of this type of video is a religion. As such I suppose you can keep your faith and I'll keep my lack of. As to the numbers, the Dept. of Agriculture has the forestry numbers. * http://tinyurl.com/2s9eht I think your charts from the above link says it all. Maybe you're just misreading them. Try this link: http://www.globalchange.umich.edu/globalchange2/current/lectures/deforest/deforest.html You can find budgets of the Feds in many places. Here is one. http://www.federalbudget.com/ And this proves your point of expenditures towards the military how? Maybe you aught to read the site again. If you have different stats I'd welcome them. I don't mind being wrong. Don't need them after that link you provided. Jeff M * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
On Jan 11, 2008, at 7:05 PM, db wrote: As I remember, our President asked us to ... keep shopping. Right you are! * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
On Jan 11, 2008, at 4:35 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: The US has more forests now than it did in the early 1900's. The greatest loss of forest land at present is occurring in the Brazilian rain forest due to both planed deforestation and poaching of lumber. (I have a charted forester in my congregation.) Stewart I have a question on this. How is more forests defined? Do we have more forested area now then we did in the early 1900's or just more areas defined as forests? Once again I'll post this link. http://www.globalchange.umich.edu/globalchange2/current/lectures/deforest/deforest.html Think of a state, any state, and see how inhabitable areas have been designated and changed over the years. Again, interesting how stats can muddy the waters of a discussion. Jeff M * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
I will ignore those tall brown and green things I drove through in Wisconsin, and TN. Matter of fact I always thought it weird that it was the, Nathan Bedford Forrest, State Forest in TN. Stewart At 06:45 PM 1/11/2008, you wrote: Don't let em fool you with the facts, Rev. We don't have any forests. Mike Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace Ozark, AL SL 82 * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
This is where it gets technical. I looked over the material you enclosed. What you fail to realize is that most of the lumber harvesting and big clean outs happened in the 1800's. I lived in Wisconsin for 12 years and the lumber industry died out in the early 1900's because they had gotten most of the good lumber. We actually have more forested acres than we did in the early 1900's. However they are not virgin forests, they sometimes lack the diversity that the old forests had, but we do have more acres of tree's than we did in the early 1900's. (I think it was Teddy Roosevelt who establish national parks which helped preserve and grow forested acreage in the US.) Is it the same amount of forested acreage that it was in the 1700's No nothing is as it was back then. This whole area gets technical and can revolve around statistics but they do not give enough information. The Amazonian Rain Forest is still classified as a Virgin Forest. By the way your statistics on Military spending also is a technical discussion. We spend more of our US budget on planned programs (I cannot remember the technical name) such as Social security, Medicare, Medicaid and other programs (WIC, Food Stamps, Welfare) than anything else. There is a portion of the military budget that goes toward soldiers, optempo, equipment etc. etc. It is never as easy or as clean cut as someone else would like to state it. By the way we have the lowest number of foreign bases than we have had in the last 50 years! Plus there is the Reserve troops, National Guard troops whose costs are split between states and feds. The US Army actually has more Reserve/Guard troops than active duty. Certain fields of expertise are found predominately in the Guards/and certain ones within the reserve. This was done after the last quadrennial review in the mid 90's That is why there are so many guard/reserve folks being called to active duty today. (Civil Affairs, Medical etc.) You can always quote whatever statistics you want, but unless you know how those were gathered and then how they are being interpreted they are just numbers. Stewart At 07:18 PM 1/11/2008, you wrote: I have a question on this. How is more forests defined? Do we have more forested area now then we did in the early 1900's or just more areas defined as forests? Once again I'll post this link. http://www.globalchange.umich.edu/globalchange2/current/lectures/deforest/deforest.html Think of a state, any state, and see how inhabitable areas have been designated and changed over the years. Again, interesting how stats can muddy the waters of a discussion. Jeff M Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace Ozark, AL SL 82 * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
OK, here comes the voice of ignorance. Whereas the number of forests might have increased, surely the acreage of forests has decreased. In the 1800's and 1900's in America, the population increased dramatically in America. Today there are many urban and suburban communities where none existed before, the dwellings are largely built of lumber, and on the two coasts this expansion came at the expense of forests. In my neighborhood in the suburbs I see animals roaming city streets that once were confined to forested land -- deer, fox, and exotic animals. I don't know what percentage of forests have been lost, but I would like to know if global warming (now considered a certainty by most environmental scientists) will cut the acreage of trees further. The kinds of trees that grow in a given area must surely change. Maybe the temperate hemispheres will become like rain forests, or maybe they will become dry so that cacti will flourish -- I don't know since I am ignorant. Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: The US has more forests now than it did in the early 1900's. The greatest loss of forest land at present is occurring in the Brazilian rain forest due to both planed deforestation and poaching of lumber. (I have a charted forester in my congregation.) Stewart * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
Matter of fact I always thought it weird that it was the, Nathan Bedford Forrest, State Forest in TN. Not exactly the dude I would name a forest after. * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
Agreed. Stewart At 09:05 PM 1/11/2008, you wrote: Matter of fact I always thought it weird that it was the, Nathan Bedford Forrest, State Forest in TN. Not exactly the dude I would name a forest after. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace Ozark, AL SL 82 * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
A lot of what you state is true, but you also forget some other reasons. Many animal populations have increased dramatically over the last century due to federal and state management, and endangered species laws. (They started having car wolf collisions in Wisconsin again. A rarity when the state lost their wolf population in the early 1900's) The deer population in Wisconsin is at all time highs. (Saw a national TV news blurb on car-deer collisions. Largest source of car damage in the US. Ought to know son had one before Thanksgiving) Many areas once forested are not. Many areas that were once forested and cleared are back into forests. The acreage change locations according to the lumber companies and paper companies etc. You obviously did not read what I stated earlier. The species is different now than what it was and that is largely due to forestry management. What you are arguing is not what I stated. What you point out is very true How many of you remember the name George Washington Carver? Father of peanut harvesting in Southern Alabama and Georgia. He helped Southern Alabama move from a cotton agriculture to a peanut agriculture because they had depleted the soil of nutrients. Also the Boll Weevil decimated the Cotton crop. Changed the face of agriculture in this area. But you must look at everything not just some things. Many areas in the Upper Midwest have been rededicated to forestry. You have chartered foresters who help people manage their tree stands better and not clear cut anymore. How many of you remember the dreadful forest fires in Yellow Stone or Yosemite a decade or so ago? Why were these so bad. Bad land management we had protected the forests so much they became tinder boxes. (Look at those areas now, growing wonderfully.) When I lived in Norther Ontario there were plaques all over the place that marked where devastating forest fires happened in the early 1900's. Hundreds of Thousands of acres of forest wiped out by fire. Standing again with wonderful trees, but their bio diversity was changed. That is the big problem is how the bio diversity has changed in our forests. Try and find a White Pine tree. Hardly any exist. They are a slow growth tree that was virtually wiped out in the 1800's and early 1900's. Introducing trees into areas they will not sustain. This killed off some trees in different areas. Are we perfect in what we do now with forest management? I don't think so but we are getting much smarter and much better. The big worry this century? Will not be forests. It will be water!! Useable potable water. In my neck of the woods this has become almost an object of war!! Who controls what water resources!!! Oh one last comment, we have become much better in wood management also. We do not burn as much wood, but we also use less wood in a house than before. We also use wood products that better unitize the lumber than before. Like many natural resources we may use less than we once did due to better utilization. Stewart At 08:25 PM 1/11/2008, you wrote: OK, here comes the voice of ignorance. Whereas the number of forests might have increased, surely the acreage of forests has decreased. In the 1800's and 1900's in America, the population increased dramatically in America. Today there are many urban and suburban communities where none existed before, the dwellings are largely built of lumber, and on the two coasts this expansion came at the expense of forests. In my neighborhood in the suburbs I see animals roaming city streets that once were confined to forested land -- deer, fox, and exotic animals. I don't know what percentage of forests have been lost, but I would like to know if global warming (now considered a certainty by most environmental scientists) will cut the acreage of trees further. The kinds of trees that grow in a given area must surely change. Maybe the temperate hemispheres will become like rain forests, or maybe they will become dry so that cacti will flourish -- I don't know since I am ignorant. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace Ozark, AL SL 82 * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
Agreed, this was the reason for my last statement in my post. Stats can be shown to say anything depending on who's doing the interpreting. And how they spin the info. The last 7 years should be a prime example of that for any university class on the subject. Jeff M On Jan 11, 2008, at 5:48 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: You can always quote whatever statistics you want, but unless you know how those were gathered and then how they are being interpreted they are just numbers. Stewart At 07:18 PM 1/11/2008, you wrote: Again, interesting how stats can muddy the waters of a discussion. Jeff M * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
I live in the Northwest, probably very different from Wisconsin when it comes to trees and types of forests I'm sure. We had a managed forest in Oregan that was mostly decimated by managed planting. The lumber companies only wanted the trees that would grow quickly and sell. Oops, a certain type of worm loved these trees and would kill them when they fed. Wow, look at this, an unending food source, they probably said to their worm little brains. My belief is, if forests are taken, they should be replanted as they were, unwanted as well as the wanted. I think they form something that's called an ecosystem? As to your statement below. Oh come on. Animal species have increased dramatically? Is this compared to when many were on the edge of extinction? Of course there are animal/car collisions more then in the past. That's a no brainer. Lost wolf population means deduction in collisions between the two. By the way, how many cars were running around in the early 1900's? How many freeways and highways did Wisconsin have? What's the ratio of cars in Wisconsin today to wolves as was the ratio in the early 1900's? Jeff M On Jan 11, 2008, at 7:15 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: A lot of what you state is true, but you also forget some other reasons. Many animal populations have increased dramatically over the last century due to federal and state management, and endangered species laws. (They started having car wolf collisions in Wisconsin again. A rarity when the state lost their wolf population in the early 1900's) The deer population in Wisconsin is at all time highs. (Saw a national TV news blurb on car-deer collisions. Largest source of car damage in the US. Ought to know son had one before Thanksgiving) * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
Environmentalism to the tune of this type of video is a religion. As such I suppose you can keep your faith and I'll keep my lack of. As to the numbers, the Dept. of Agriculture has the forestry numbers. * http://tinyurl.com/2s9eht There you go again!! Whenever there is a very serious issue that someone doesn't understand or doesn't want to be involved with, instead of learning more, or shutting up, all of a sudden it's a RELIGION! NO. WRONG. Science is not a religion. It's based on repeatedly observable facts. Would you like the records that we kept for nearly 15 years of weather and energy use in our solar house, and resulting analysis? Why don't you take the time to read the scientific reports by real scientists instead of the ones paid by Exxon, et al. If you had been paying attention to the federal government's record of scientific reports during the Bush administration--or Bush I, or Reagan--you would have noticed that ignorant bureaucrats have been editing and redacting scientific data that they don't like. I use the USDA site often, and many of the more useful--and accurate--reports have been changed to be less useful or removed completely. The White House site for a while listed Thomas Jefferson, founder of the Democratic Party, as a Republican! The scientists who work for the federal government and want to speak out on serious issues are either silenced or fired. Want to do something useful to improve the climate and clean the air? Plant trees. Lots of them. We've planted over 500. You can too. [Back to computers] This might be a good time to consider your next computer, too, and look for the most efficient, best quality, least toxic, most recycleable, longest lasting one you can find. Betty * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
As the most qualified religious nut on this list, let me speak to religion. Someone once said where you heart is there is where your God is. Stewart At 10:32 PM 1/11/2008, you wrote: There you go again!! Whenever there is a very serious issue that someone doesn't understand or doesn't want to be involved with, instead of learning more, or shutting up, all of a sudden it's a RELIGION! NO. WRONG. Science is not a religion. It's based on repeatedly observable facts. Would you like the records that we kept for nearly 15 years of weather and energy use in our solar house, and resulting analysis? Why don't you take the time to read the scientific reports by real scientists instead of the ones paid by Exxon, et al. If you had been paying attention to the federal government's record of scientific reports during the Bush administration--or Bush I, or Reagan--you would have noticed that ignorant bureaucrats have been editing and redacting scientific data that they don't like. I use the USDA site often, and many of the more useful--and accurate--reports have been changed to be less useful or removed completely. The White House site for a while listed Thomas Jefferson, founder of the Democratic Party, as a Republican! The scientists who work for the federal government and want to speak out on serious issues are either silenced or fired. Want to do something useful to improve the climate and clean the air? Plant trees. Lots of them. We've planted over 500. You can too. [Back to computers] This might be a good time to consider your next computer, too, and look for the most efficient, best quality, least toxic, most recycleable, longest lasting one you can find. Betty Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace Ozark, AL SL 82 * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic????
As the most qualified religious nut on this list, let me speak to religion. Someone once said where you heart is there is where your God is No doubt about that. I'm not a religious person per se but faith has saved my butt on a number of occasions. - Original Message - From: Rev. Stewart Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 12:14 AM Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Must see TV...Off Topic As the most qualified religious nut on this list, let me speak to religion. Someone once said where you heart is there is where your God is. Stewart At 10:32 PM 1/11/2008, you wrote: There you go again!! Whenever there is a very serious issue that someone doesn't understand or doesn't want to be involved with, instead of learning more, or shutting up, all of a sudden it's a RELIGION! NO. WRONG. Science is not a religion. It's based on repeatedly observable facts. Would you like the records that we kept for nearly 15 years of weather and energy use in our solar house, and resulting analysis? Why don't you take the time to read the scientific reports by real scientists instead of the ones paid by Exxon, et al. If you had been paying attention to the federal government's record of scientific reports during the Bush administration--or Bush I, or Reagan--you would have noticed that ignorant bureaucrats have been editing and redacting scientific data that they don't like. I use the USDA site often, and many of the more useful--and accurate--reports have been changed to be less useful or removed completely. The White House site for a while listed Thomas Jefferson, founder of the Democratic Party, as a Republican! The scientists who work for the federal government and want to speak out on serious issues are either silenced or fired. Want to do something useful to improve the climate and clean the air? Plant trees. Lots of them. We've planted over 500. You can too. [Back to computers] This might be a good time to consider your next computer, too, and look for the most efficient, best quality, least toxic, most recycleable, longest lasting one you can find. Betty Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace Ozark, AL SL 82 * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived * == QUICK LIST-COMMAND REFERENCE - Put the following commands in == * == the body of an email send 'em to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == * Join the list: SUBSCRIBE COMPUTERGUYS-L Your Name * Too much mail? Try Daily Digests command: SET COMPUTERGUYS-L DIGEST * Tired of the List? Unsubscribe command: SIGNOFF COMPUTERGUYS-L * New address? From OLD address send: CHANGE COMPUTERGUYS-L YourNewAddress * Need more help? Send mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * List archive from 1/1/2000 is on the MARC http://marc.info/?l=computerguys-l * List archive at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/ * RSS at www.mail-archive.com/computerguys-l@listserv.aol.com/maillist.xml * Messages bearing the header X-No-Archive: yes will not be archived
