Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
'Simultaneous' means that they all saw it at the same time, during the same event. Tell us more about this ONE event where 'thousands' at that one time saw the same thing... There are many, many such events. They do not, however, prove an ET origin for what these people saw. There are a number of equally plausible alternative explanations. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
UFOs game the French fighter jets, and that is an ET craft, by the rules of best evidence. Which rules of evidence, exactly, are you refering to here? Be specific. Who wrote them? When? Where may I look them up? Cite your source. What's the ISBN? On which page are these rules found? What, exactly, do they say? THAT IS THE CORE OF THE REPORT, NESSIE. THE FRENCH ARE REPORTING ON 500 UFO CRAFT THAT BY THE RULES OF BEST EVIDENCE ARE EXTRATERRESTRIAL. A report is a report. If I report to you that the French were actually seeing my kid's model planes, does that mean that's what the French saw? Of course not. A report is a report, nothing more. It's not proof. Show us some proof, REAL, proof. UFOs gamed my radio talk show in Jackson MISS on May 14, 2000 - Tell us about it. coulda been ETs. Coulda been USA military mimics. Now that's an objective analysis. That's exactly what I've been saying all along. I think it was ETs. That is a wholly credible statement. I believe you when you say this. That alone doesn't mean that I'm right, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. UFOs game with people who are ET sensitive. What exactly does that mean? Are you saying that some people can percieve UFOs and some can't? ETs are playing a "peripheral cuing" game. UFO encounters are peripheral cues, mass psychology enhancers. Pentagon secret triangular UFOs are gross. ET UFOs are cool. ETs don't play YOUR game; ETs play THEIR game Capiche? How do you know this? Did the tell you personally or did you figure it out? and what exactly, is a "peripheral cuing game"? T hey also have not come up with a single ET, just a lot of talk. Nessie - That is false. So where is he then? Where is the ET? Take me to him. I'll buy the little sucker a drink and we'll talk it over, him and me. Then I'll come right back here and tell y'all he's real. That's a promise. In the meantime, he's a character in a story some people tell, no more, no less, and that's the way it is. It doesn't mean the story's not true. But it sure as hell don't mean that it is. BTW, that Italian word you tried to use is spelled: capiesc' Really; look it up. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
From: "Nicky Molloy" [EMAIL PROTECTED] You don't speak for all the Celts. You are still trying to figure out if there are even aliens, yet you are inplying you are above average intelliegence. On the other hand Andrew and I have both had extensive personal dealings with Ets and written books on this. We are termed 'Celt'. In my case I have had personal daily communications with local ETs (Venusians etc) for years but stopped in 1984. Just about the time the Russian released their pictures of Venus, taken by their space probes, showing that it would be impossible for higher life forms to exist there? What PROOF do you have that you weren't hallucinating? What PROOF do you have that you weren't being manipulated by some earthly power who implanted you with false memories? What PROOF do you have that if these communications DID occur with non-homo sapiens, that these 'aliens' weren't LYING to you? You don't. You just have a belief system, as dogmatic as any conventional religion. And as a 'true believer', you can't be objective. June A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
From: "nessie" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 'Simultaneous' means that they all saw it at the same time, during the same event. Tell us more about this ONE event where 'thousands' at that one time saw the same thing... There are many, many such events. I'm looking to have just ONE such event named, where 'thousands' of people saw something at the same time. The closest I can come up with are the Mexican and Phoenix sightings a few years ago, but in reality only a few hundred at most actually saw anything AT THE SAME TIME as others reported seeing something. There's a big difference in saying 'thousands in the Phoenix area saw strange lights on the night of...', and when investigating, find that maybe a few dozen saw something around 8pm, maybe a few hundred sighted something around 10pm, and perhaps a few hundred more saw something in the wee hours of the morning...perhaps in total a thousand or more people saw something strange that night, but never 'simultaneously'... It could be said that 'thousands' witnessed the 'Westchester Wing' which was seen in my area back in the early to mid 1980s...but in fact, at most it could only be a thousand or so IN TOTAL...and never at the same time... They do not, however, prove an ET origin for what these people saw. There are a number of equally plausible alternative explanations. Or equally implausible. All we know is that relatively reliable people report seeing -- and in some cases, experiencing -- strange things. But we have no way of knowing the true nature of these events, and one should take what the supposed instigators of such events (e.g., 'aliens') claim to be 'the truth' with a grain of salt. June A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
June: You don't. You just have a belief system, as dogmatic as any conventional religion. /// And as a 'true believer', you can't be objective. Damn! How'd that happen?!?! For once, we are in complete agreement June. Edward + === "In an age of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5285/connector1.html Reality Pump: http://www.egroups.com/group/reality_pump === A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
On 28 May 00, at 4:26, Andrew Hennessey wrote: So on those simple grounds alone - if you dismiss ET's [and I think that there has been and still is plenty of non-human intelligent life on this planet] - then you cannot claim that your KITCHEN exists if you cannot see it at any one time. There are Images of Non-Human Beings worshipped, drawn, painted and communed with since the dawn of recorded time on this planet. Dismiss that evidence - and well, who needs a kitchen anyway ? :) I am working on this one daily. My nextdoor neighbor has trucks bearing his name in huge letters and he has parked these trucks-- like billboards-- along the border of my lovely garden--albeit on his own property. When I go out to grab a little pastoral solitude I position myself so the trucks are out of sight and keep sayingif I don't see them, they don't exist.if I don't see them, they don't exist. Since it isn't exactly working, I have gotten a permit to put up a fence. An exercise in reverse solipcism. sno0wl A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Deal with this reality from French fighter pilots and 500 other hard scientifically validated cases. Let go of your scifi rhetoric and confront the integrity, probity, and overwhelming evidence of the French military and scientific avante-garde. The "integrity" of the French military!?! Gimme a break. Theses are the guys who clamped electrodes to Algerian genitals. These are the guys who bomb women and children in Iraq, in Yugoslavia, and before they were driven off at gun point, in S.E. Asia. They are not nice people. They are imperialist predators. They have a top notch, world class intelligence service who can lie and manipulate with the best of them. They are not credible sources. NATO in general is not a credible source. Ask [EMAIL PROTECTED] how credible NATO is. They also have not come up with a single ET, just a lot of talk. [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That intelligent ET's are visiting Earth for ANY reason is a BELIEF, and as such is unassailable since no argument I put forth to refute it will stand up to your innate belief in it. At least we are making progress. We used to argue about matters of belief that could not be resolved, i.e. morality. Morality, after all, is a matter of opinion. One person's vice is another person's virtue. These disputes can never be resolved. The best we can do is to hold truce about them. But this thing here is about belief in things that can be resolved. They can be resolved by hard, forensic, physical evidence. They cannot, however be resolved by eyewitnesses, even if they themselves believe they are telling the truth. Everyone believes things that aren't true. It's part of the human condition. As such, it can be used by clever psy-warriors to alter the behavior of both individuals and groups. If humans were incapable of believing things that weren't true, eye witness accounts would suffice. But alas. [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You don't speak for all the Celts. I didn't say that I did. I wasn't speaking for Celts at all, any Celts. I was speaking about Celts. That's different. You are still trying to figure out if there are even aliens, I didn't say that either. I said, and I quote, "The existence of ETs is pretty much a mathematical certainty. Count stars. Hell yes, there are ETs. We'd be foolish and vain to assume there were no ETs. They're out there, alright." Don't put words in my mouth. It's rude. yet you are inplying you are above average intelligence. Usually I'm at least smart enough to spell check my post when I'm discussing other people's relative intelligence.. On the other hand Andrew and I have both had extensive personal dealings with Ets and written books on this. We are termed 'Celt'. In my case I have had personal daily communications with local ETs (Venusians etc) for years but stopped in 1984. (1.) That's what you say. (2.) Even if you're telling the truth as you see it, and I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, all that proves is that you believe that it's true. It does not prove that whoever told you they were ETs were telling you the truth. I tell people I'm Nessie. Does that make me a lake monster? How do you know I'm not a ET and I'm just messing with your head here? You don't, do you? Nor do I know who you are. For all I know for certain you are all subroutines in some vast interactive AI driven MUD in which, of all the characters, I'm the only one who's actually human (or ET or lake monster or the guy across the street or whatever the hell I am). You don't know for sure. You can't know for sure. And that's just how the internet is. And neither can I. So stuff I read on the internet is not ever, in and of itself alone, gonna convince me of anything, least of all that some ETs somewhere give a rats ass about this sorry, backward, obscure rock we're on. Forensic evidence will. I told you how and where to go touch China. So you owe me one. Tell me how and where I can go touch an ET, or a demonstrably ET artifact, and I will do so and then I will shut up about this immediately. [EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: It makes intuitive sense and also provides an explanation for facts that don't seem to fit anywhere else. That alone does not make it true. It makes intuitive sense that the earth is flat, which would also explain why ships sail away sometimes and never come back. they must have sailed off the edge. Hey, it makes common snese! It also explains why half the time we can't see the sun. It must be under the earth. That's sure as hell is how it looks. Things are not always how they look. It's too bad, because it sure would make life easier. But it is what it is. [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: if you dismiss ET's . . . then you cannot claim that your KITCHEN exists if you cannot see it at any one time. This statement is true if and only if I dismiss ETs because I cannot see them an any one time. That's not what I said. I don't dismiss ETs, per se, at all.
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
From: "Samantha L." [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yes, from what I remember in "Above Top Secret", they just repeat these 19th century stories, they do not 'document' them by doing research and gain any corraborating evidence. As I recall, it named the papers, dates and authors as well as the accounts. If witness accounts are not meaningful to you, so be it. Good has the newspaper accounts. I'm not quite sure how he would corroborate the stories with DEAD PEOPLE. By research. All the book does is recount old news articles, most of which it got from other UFO books, and does not list direct reference. IOW, it does NOT give the page numbers the articles are found on, because the writer never read the article directly in the paper, but depends on what other publications have said about the articles. And even then, all you have is an old newspaper article about what certain people CLAIM to have seen. This is no 'proof' of anything, except that some people claim to have seen something strange. We have no way of 'proving' whether the article is a hoax of the newspaper (not unknown back in those days), a hoax of the supposed witnesses, and if the witnesses ARE reliable, we have no way of knowing whether someone was playing a hoax on them... I can show you a newspaper article from a reliable newspaper back in 1892, that names witnesses and gives their addresses, who all claimed to have witnessed Lizzie Borden arguing with her father shortly before the infamous ax murders; some witnesses even claimed to have seen one of the murders committed in an upstairs room while the witness was on the street below. As it turned out, not only would it have been impossible to have seen anything from that angle (perhaps the ceiling), within a few days it was found that the reporter had made up all the names and addresses, that none of the supposed witnesses even existed. So just because we today can lay our hands on a Victorian-era newspaper article, there is not one reason why what is stated in the article should be taken at face value without other corraborating evidence. It is, perhaps, 'documentation' of what a number of eye-witnesses claim to have seen. It tells us nothing regarding the real nature of what was seen. Eye-witness testimony is highly subjective, colored by the intellect and emotions of the observer. Standard assertion. Standard TRUTH. Ask any policeman who has to deal with eyewitness testimony to a crime. It's actually pretty unreliable, and gets more unreliable the more emotional the event. Thousands of people have been simulatenous witnesses to unidentified flying objects. 'Simultaneous' means that they all saw it at the same time, during the same event. Tell us more about this ONE event where 'thousands' at that one time saw the same thing... I hope you don't believe anything you've ever read about history, since it all comes ultimately from witness accounts which are apparently "highly subjective, colored by the intellect and emotions of the observer." But also subject to research, comparing multiple accounts of the same events. Actually I DON'T believe everything I read regarding history. History is written by the victors, and so, yes, tends to be highly subjective, colored by not only the intellect and emotions of the writer, but his prejudices, too... June A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: We have no way of 'proving' whether the article is a hoax of the newspaper (not unknown back in those days), And not just back then, either. Modern newspapers lie every day. They also grossly distort events by reporting some and not others. Consider gun violence. When a kid shoots somebody, it's front page news. If a cop shoots somebody, it's lucky to make two column inches, way in the back with the truss ads. Consider how this distorts the perception of people like the "Million" Mom March, which incidentally drew at most three hundred thousand. I've been to a lot of demonstrations in my time. I've been to demonstrations on that very spot. Hell, I've rioted on that very spot. I also went to Woodstock. I know what a half a million people look like. I've been in a half a million people. I've demonstrated with a half million people. That was no million people. Not so says the newspapers. Even the ones who admit it was less than a million people still call it tie "Million" Mom March. The newspapers told us Oswald shot Kennedy. The newspapers told us the North Vietnamese shot first in Tonkin Gulf. The newspaper told us the Spanish blew up the Maine. The newspapers told us Pearl Harbor was a surprise attack. Newspapers are not a credible source. This does not mean that everything you read in the newspaper is a lie. Far from it. But it does mean that what you read in the newspapers needs to be corroborated by primary sources, preferably forensic, preferably after a thorough check of the lab's bona fides. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
In a message dated 00-05-28 04:47:33 EDT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: T hey also have not come up with a single ET, just a lot of talk. Nessie - That is false. UFOs game the French fighter jets, and that is an ET craft, by the rules of best evidence. THAT IS THE CORE OF THE REPORT, NESSIE. THE FRENCH ARE REPORTING ON 500 UFO CRAFT THAT BY THE RULES OF BEST EVIDENCE ARE EXTRATERRESTRIAL. UFOs gamed my radio talk show in Jackson MISS on May 14, 2000 - coulda been ETs. Coulda been USA military mimics. I think it was ETs. UFOs game with people who are ET sensitive. ETs are playing a "peripheral cuing" game. UFO encounters are peripheral cues, mass psychology enhancers. Pentagon secret triangular UFOs are gross. ET UFOs are cool. ETs don't play YOUR game; ETs play THEIR game Capiche? Alfred _ http://www.universebooks.com A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
On Sat, 27 May 2000, Andrew Hennessey wrote: At 07:39 PM 27, 05, , 2000 -0700, you wrote: I think the point is missed here Andrew. We both DON'T know that ET's exist, (UFO's exist absolutely) we do both know that China exists, thus there is a conflict and this argument does not hold water. I've never been there, to China, never touched it - seen some images on tv - but they can do marvellous things with photoshop these days - sure there are some vases and stuff but those could've been made anywhere. Spielbergs Dreamworks can do incredible stuff. [this is the ultimate sceptical argument by the way - first coined by descartes it is called epistemological scepticism - 'how can we know anything' its used a lot on 'science lists' when the sleazy unfalsifiable passengers on the gravy train are confronted with the paradoxes central to their lunatic 'scientific BELIEFS' - I use the argument here because we're all in rational mode - and well - its the bottom line for any sceptic - get familiar with it - it'll get more frequent as the scientific world view collapses into 'magical realism'] If you are asking me to believe that because there is 'anecdotal and third party evidence - eg. vases that alledge that they come from a place called china along with a story that has some strange names in it - and you expect me to believe because of that that china exists - then EQUALLY - there is as much if not more CULTURAL THIRD PARTY EVIDENCE for EXTRA TERRESTRIAL/non-human culture and beings as there is for CHINA. So if you tell me that CHINA definitely exists - then Non-Human Intelligent life exists on this planet too. So on those simple grounds alone - if you dismiss ET's [and I think that there has been and still is plenty of non-human intelligent life on this planet] - then you cannot claim that your KITCHEN exists if you cannot see it at any one time. There are Images of Non-Human Beings worshipped, drawn, painted and communed with since the dawn of recorded time on this planet. Dismiss that evidence - and well, who needs a kitchen anyway ? :) andrew Andrew, ultimately I must agree with the ultra-sceptical viewpoint and say that we can know nothing. I believe that everything is ultimately illusory thus nothing exists in an ultimate sense (for me at least). But if we cannot agree on any fundamentals then we will never agree on the small things. I think we both agree that UFO's are real, we just differ on what they may be. Correct me if I'm wrong but you believe that at least some of them are being directed by aliens from somewhere other than Earth? I say that there is no evidence that any UFO's are of alien origin, but do not discount the possibility out of hand. Will you admit the possibility that there are no alien driven UFO's, or are you adamant that your view MUST be correct? "Welcome to the desert of the real." Morpheus, in The Matrix "My God it's full of stars!" Dave Bowman, in 2001: A Space Odyssey ___ Why pay when you don't have to? Get AltaVista Free Internet Access now! http://jump.altavista.com/freeaccess4.go ___ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
nessie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The world is overrun with belief systems based on a priori assumptions. They're all irrational. Give a moment's thought to the a priori assumptions of "scientific" empiricism before you shoot yourself in the foot, is my suggestion :-) A search for "Problem of Induction" would be the entry-level approach... A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
In a message dated 5/28/00 1:42:24 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 'Simultaneous' means that they all saw it at the same time, during the same event. Tell us more about this ONE event where 'thousands' at that one time saw the same thing... Good talks about a UFO sighting (in Mexico, I believe) which was witnessed by many thousands of people at once. Actually, he writes about more than that one. I don't have his book at hand. I also think the Phoenix Arizona wave of 1997 fits into this category. The Belgium sightings starting in 1989 had hundreds at a time, adding up to about 30K before the wave passed. There's more evidence laying about regarding UFOs and ET's than there is about most other topics taken as credible on this list - especially Clinton topics. Clinton has been tried, convicted and hung on this list about a gazillion times with much less supporting evidence than there is available for UFO's likely being operated by ET's. If you're interested in learning more, look for info. You may be surprised. It's not all going to fall into your lap. Read the French report or the Belgian report if you like. Whatever. People on this list are very smart. That different standards of evidence are used for different topics reveals, IMO, at least a lack of objectivity. Whatever floats your boat is fine with me. I made a new friend and found some great info by being involved in this discussion. I'm happy and so now I can be nice, even. Samantha A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
From: "nessie" [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Belgian Air Force doesn't think they could be man-made. The Belgian Air Force SAYS it doesn't THINK they could be man-made. To be even more precise, a television program supposedly alleged that the Belgian air force supposedly thinks that what was seen could not have been formed by earthly technology. No names of anyone in the Belgian air force are being put forth as a source for this supposed allegation. News reports in the 19th century, documented in "Above Top Secret?" News reports in the 19th century, are REPEATED in "Above Top Secret" By definition, this is hearsay. It's pretty interesting hearsay and worth considering. But it's NOT evidence. Yes, from what I remember in "Above Top Secret", they just repeat these 19th century stories, they do not 'document' them by doing research and gain any corraborating evidence. Do multiple sightings documented in newspapers before the invention of airplanes mean nothing to you? When something is reported in the newspaper it is REPORTED in the newspaper. A REPORT is not documentation. It is, perhaps, 'documentation' of what a number of eye-witnesses claim to have seen. It tells us nothing regarding the real nature of what was seen. Eye-witness testimony is highly subjective, colored by the intellect and emotions of the observer. June A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
From: "Samantha L." [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'd never dream that my ideas are above criticism, and never once implied otherwise. I think the screech level that arises on this list when anyone brings up the subject of UFOs is quite telling. There's plenty of evidence, anecdotal and otherwise, that unidentified objects have been flying in our skies for a century or more. There's evidence, not proof. But what do any of us have that is proof of anything? Have you ever met Clinton? Are you sure he exists? Could he be a digital image? If you met him, can you prove he wasn't a cyborg? I mean, get real. I think the 'screech level' as you deem it is due to the fact that when it comes to UFOs, there are way too many 'true believers' of whatever 'truth' the believers choose regarding the nature and origin of UFOs. Too many of these 'true believers' treat it as if it were a religion, with a set of rules and dogmas... Yes, 'something' is going on in regards to what is popularly known as Unidentified Flying Objects. I am prepared to believe that the majority of people who have claimed to witness, and perhaps even had direct contact with, these objects and perhaps occupants within the objects, are telling the truth AS THEY PERCEIVE IT. Which perhaps is not the same as objective reality. I am not prepared to believe that these objects are extraterrestial; on the other hand, I don't necessarily DIS-believe it, either. I try to keep an open mind. June A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
[ a bit of a contradiction and she had a DNA marker that has not existed on this planet for a Very long time. How can anyone know this. To know this there would have to be very old dna with which to compare. absolutely wrong there - and stop trying to be scientific - it doesn't work [all of this depends on our definition of what a human is though Here we go again. We all know what a human is. The definition of what a human is is not ambiguous. oh, so you're the missing link then ? blah blah liar, etc etc - spurious flames, I'm mr credible etc etc yeah, ok then. have a nice millenium andrew A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
thanks samantha - I was going to use the china argument - if you've never been there and touched it - how do you know it physically exists. This is PURE BULLSHIT. And stupid to boot. You KNOW China exists and so do the rest of us. The existence of China is an agreed upon fact. If you doubt the existence of China, it's because there is a problem with your mind, and not with the existence of China. This is what I pointed out in a previous post about guys like you damaging others' psyches. You can't prove your point because it's not real. So what do you need to do? You need to destroy in a healthier mind than yours, the 'obviously true' by imposing doubt of perception when it isn't there. I am saying that UFOs and ETs are REAL, others are saying that all the proof for them are heresay because you cannot touch it. so to try to help people get a more real perspective on it - I then say to them We can't touch ET's - we can't touch China - but we both know that they exist hope that clears it up andrew A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: It was a blond chinese person You're not talking about those mummies that turned up in the desert not long ago, are you? Those were Celts. I'm a Celt; lemme tell you a little about the tribe. Despite long standing rumors to the contrary we Celts are actually mere mortals. We're a little smarter than the average mortal, and definitely better looking, but we're mortals nonetheless. Oh, the ignominy. But there it is. Personally, I'd rather be ET, but hey, what can ya do? So what were my long lost lost cousins doing in China so long ago? We get around, always have. We're found on every continent and a lot of places in between. Except for "Mother" England, we are welcome everywhere we go. If I were Chinese, I'd want some Celts to show up at the door, too. It's a sign of luck. A Celt at you door is just about the best you can hope for in life. Open up. Let us in. We're really damn handy to have on the team. We work hard, fight well and tell the best stories. You want us around, really you do. I was abducted and was privvy to imagery for which there was no a priori media coverage and fictions ie. I'm sure you believe it is so. It may even be so. Nevertheless Persinger, Frey, et al, have presented more than sufficient data to infer that the abduction experience can be artificially induced via technological and hypnotic means. While I can't dismiss your claim out of hand, I do feel it prudent to go with Occum on this one until more data comes in. No offense. in 1980 - I more recently identified my hosts with the aid of modern mythology however Sounds interesting. Tell us about it. we may start with, india, or africa, or greece, or china, or south america, or europe for the historical stuff - They're all good. You pick. or maybe refer to a book written by a researcher in 1790, Sounds interesting. Tell us about it. or look at the stuff Dr John Dee was into in elizabethan times - Which stuff? or maybe I could get my mate Dave to send you the video we made of Brenda Butler - who had a lodger called david daniels who scared the living daylights out of her, Now you're talking. Here's the address: nessie c/o Bound Together Books 1369 Haight St. San Francisco CA 94117 or the work we did here on the cottinglea faeries photos and how they had been painted with faeries to cover up shapechangeing elsie wright - we have an original photo of her looking Very Large and not at all like a young slim lady I have real trouble taking this seriously, but I sure would like to see the photo. And if I were you, I wouldn't call them by name like that. They don't like it. Don't make them mad. You don't want to be Taken, do you? Call them the "Fair Folk" or the "Good People" of the "Other People" or something like that. A word to the wise is sufficient. why you might be on the internet at all I only do what the voices tell me. And you? A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: stop trying to be scientific - it doesn't work Oh no? Explain please. The definition of what a human is is not ambiguous. oh, so you're the missing link then ? How does this follow? Your logic here eludes me. I am saying that UFOs and ETs are REAL, others are saying that all the proof for them are heresay because you cannot touch it. I can't speak for "others" but I personally am not saying UFO are not real. I am not saying ETs are not real. I am saying, where is the forensic evidence that any UFO is of ET origin? Show us the forensic evidence. We can't touch ET's - we can't touch China - but we both know that they exist This is bogus logic. We can indeed touch China. I personally know a guy who did it. I haven't done it myself for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that the government there wont let me in. But that in no way proves the "we" can't touch China. If you want to touch China, go touch China. But don't tell us that simply because you yourself haven't done so yet means that everything we personally have not yet touched are therefore real. It doesn't follow. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
stop trying to be scientific - it doesn't work Oh no? Explain please. nurev concluded that the dna markers identified in the australian abduction could not be old human because we didn't have any old human dna. He could have realised that genetics is advanced enough to know what all the old markers and modern markers look like - and that by seeing all the old markers in the one sample - it was therefore the old dna - but he didn't go that far with his deductions - unfortunately - and he resorted to other - [equally valid :) appeals] The definition of what a human is is not ambiguous. oh, so you're the missing link then ? How does this follow? Your logic here eludes me. well - actually see THE GREAT APE LEGAL PROJECT currently being pushed by the eugenics experts - where APES and HUMANS have the same DNA 98.4% and therefore deserve the same rights as 'humans'. I am saying that UFOs and ETs are REAL, others are saying that all the proof for them are heresay because you cannot touch it. I can't speak for "others" but I personally am not saying UFO are not real. I am not saying ETs are not real. I am saying, where is the forensic evidence that any UFO is of ET origin? Show us the forensic evidence. We can't touch ET's - we can't touch China - but we both know that they exist This is bogus logic. no its not. We can indeed touch China. I personally know a guy who did it. You're giving me heresay - he could've been lying - and here I find myself repeating the same arguments you used against heresay in an earlier thread. so how many bloodsucking aliens are currently standing for election then ?? andrew andrew A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: You're giving me heresay - he could've been lying - and here I find myself repeating the same arguments you used against heresay in an earlier thread. I said, and I quote, "If you want to touch China, go touch China." You can do that if you want. Can I go touch forensic evidence that UFOs are ET in origin? If so, tell me where, and what time of day I should show up. so how many bloodsucking aliens are currently standing for election then ?? A more pertinent question would be how many bloodsucking Aryans are currently standing for election then. The definition of what a human is is not ambiguous. oh, How does this follow? Your logic here eludes me. well - actually see THE GREAT APE LEGAL PROJECT currently being pushed by the eugenics experts - where APES and HUMANS have the same DNA 98.4% and therefore deserve the same rights as 'humans'. I'm not disputing that the definition of human is far from unambiguous, and becoming more ambiguous by the day. I feel great kinship with the great apes, bonobos in particular. No, they should not be killed, except of course in self defense, which is seldom necessary. What I don't understand is how that leads to " so you're the missing link then ? " Please enlighten me. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
In a message dated 5/27/00 5:53:52 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To be even more precise, a television program supposedly alleged that the Belgian air force supposedly thinks that what was seen could not have been formed by earthly technology. No names of anyone in the Belgian air force are being put forth as a source for this supposed allegation. Names in second exerpt. http://www.cninews.com/CNI_99Headline.html Among the biggest stories ever featured in CNI News was the release in July of the "COMETA" UFO report by leading French military officers and scientists, which categorically stated that UFOs are physically real, anomalous, of defense significance and therefore deserving of coordinated international study. The international silence that greeted COMETA's report was nothing short of bizarre. http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/belgium/belup.html We have obtained, courtesy of French researcher Jean-Luc Rivera, a copy of the complete report of this incident, which was prepared by Air Force Major P. Lambrechts, from the Air Force General Staff in Brussels, and which was forwarded to the SOBEPS following the instructions of full cooperation with that group. The "Report Concerning the Observation of UFOs During the Night of March 30 to 31, 1990," includes a full chronology of the events, as well as a thick dossier of enclosures with eyewitness' descriptions from several gendarmes and maps of where the sightings took place. - http://www.ping.be/aura-oasis/BelgUFO.htm The following is a report written by the secretarial staff of the Belgian Air Force staff. REPORT ON THE OBSERVATION OF UFOs DURING THE NIGHT OF MARCH 30-31, 1990 --- Oh, and this has been discussed on the CTRL list as well: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 08:18:25 -0800 In late 1989 through out 1990, more than 3 Belgians witnessed silent and triangular shaped UFOs darting in the skies. Why Belgium? Belgium is apart of NATO defence. In the United States there has been a mass outbreak of black triangular UFOs hovering over house tops and travelling at fantastic speeds while securing sharp angled turns with ease. Are these UFOs from outer space? Or are they from planet earth. You be the judge. -Rick- http://ufos.about.com/science/ufos/library/bldata/blsight4.htm Try this site for European UFO sightings. Yes, from what I remember in "Above Top Secret", they just repeat these 19th century stories, they do not 'document' them by doing research and gain any corraborating evidence. As I recall, it named the papers, dates and authors as well as the accounts. If witness accounts are not meaningful to you, so be it. Good has the newspaper accounts. I'm not quite sure how he would corroborate the stories with DEAD PEOPLE. It is, perhaps, 'documentation' of what a number of eye-witnesses claim to have seen. It tells us nothing regarding the real nature of what was seen. Eye-witness testimony is highly subjective, colored by the intellect and emotions of the observer. Standard assertion. Thousands of people have been simulatenous witnesses to unidentified flying objects. It does not tell the real nature of the objects, but since multiple sightings have been made even before the invention of the airplane, a little deductive reasoning mught be in order. I hope you don't believe anything you've ever read about history, since it all comes ultimately from witness accounts which are apparently "highly subjective, colored by the intellect and emotions of the observer." Samantha A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
In a message dated 5/27/00 10:46:43 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Despite long standing rumors to the contrary we Celts are actually mere mortals. We're a little smarter than the average mortal, and definitely better looking, but we're mortals nonetheless. Oh, the ignominy. But there it is. Do you have any documentation to back that up, or are we supposed to take your word for it? I'm sure you believe it is so. It may even be so. Nevertheless Persinger, Frey, et al, have presented more than sufficient data to infer that the abduction experience can be artificially induced via technological and hypnotic means. Stimulate various parts of the brain and you can get various reactions - happiness, depression, sexual urgency, floods of memories. So.by being able to reproduce an emotion or experience via technological and/or hypnotic means that the spontaneous versions of these experiences/emotions are not valid? Ok, sure, certainly, wow. Samantha A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
In a message dated 5/27/00 11:05:50 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: We can indeed touch China. I personally know a guy who did it. Show us the forensic evidence, please. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: Do you have any documentation to back that up, or are we supposed to take your word for it? You can check up on the mortality of Celts by looking over the surnames on tombstones at your local graveyard. If you really wanna be really, really sure you can dig a few up and ask 'em about it. As for our being smarter and better looking, well, some things in this life are simply self evident. Stimulate various parts of the brain and you can get various reactions - happiness, depression, sexual urgency, floods of memories. So.by being able to reproduce an emotion or experience via technological and/or hypnotic means that the spontaneous versions of these experiences/emotions are not valid? No. But it does mean that they aren't always valid. I could, for example, sit on the other side of your wall with an obsolete, 50 year old LIDA machine (http://www.raven1.net/lida.htm), irradiate you with the proper frequency and you would decide it was time to take a nap. Without the proper sensors to tip you off, you would have no idea whatsoever that it was my idea and not yours. I don't know at what range Persinger's well known EM hallucination technique works. That information seems to be classified. Nor can I tell you exactly how realistic an artificial memory can be implanted by hypnosis. I can tell you that sufficient doubts are raised by what we do know about these kind of things that it would be foolish to draw any conclusions solely on the basis of what people say, even sincere people who are looking you right in the eye while they talk. We must take care, as every first year law student is taught routinely, not to give greater weight to eye witness accounts than we do forensic evidence. Eye witness accounts are, in fact, the weakest link in the chain. Perception and memory simply can't be trusted in even the best circumstances. The way they teach this in law school is by way of a little theater. At an unannounced moment two distinctive looking people in distinctive, even slightly bizarre and eye catching dress, rush into the class room and perform a very brief skit involving some simple props. Then they leave. The students then write down what they saw and then compare notes. A large and fairly predictable percent of the student/witnesses will inevitably find that they were dead wrong about even such basics as the race and gender of the actors, to say nothing of of their clothing, the props or what they actually did. Hence, we must corroborate any account, especially one of a paradigm shaking event like abduction, with solid forensic evidence. Otherwise, we stand little chance of ever really knowing what actually happened. All we know is what somebody said happened. The sad fact of life in our corrupt and racist court system is that the government routinely hangs people, innocent and otherwise, on the basis of less evidence than we have for the existence of Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster. That's just the way it is. But I sure as hell wouldn't want one to be me. Would you? A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
OK - Here is what the former French heads of NASA, Air Force, etc say in
their reality-shattering 1999 Cometa report, holding that the
extraterrestrial hypothesis has significant support. What follows is a
summary by a French scientist. The 500 cases in the report are hard
evidence. Ufology is for the patient, BTW.
List members engaging in this thread are at a disadvantage, because they
are victims of a covert information war by the USA government to suppress
facts of the extraterrestrial presence. If you want to debate this issue,
become informed. But realize that you (mainly USAers) are in a society whose
government, unlike that of France, suppresses the evidence and
assassinates people like Philip Schneider, a USAer who tied to make this
public. USAers are only 5% of the global propulation. The extraterrestrial
hypothesis holds the USA as the PROBLEM not the SOLUTION. USA mind-set is
also a problem, as 5% of the global population consumes 25% of its resoures.
An extraterrestrial landing would mean the end of a war-based economy, of USA
hegemony, and a more equal world. So USAers may be in denial or resistance.
Enjoy, and VERIFY! Alfred Webre, Vancouver, BC
=
http://www.cninews.com/CNI_French.html
The French Report on UFOs and Defence : a short
presentation
by Gildas Bourdais
It must be stressed here that this is an independant report, written by a
private association called COMETA. It is
summarized here with the approval of the authors.
To translate and publish the report itself, in part or in its integrality,
permission should be asked by writing to the
administrator of the association COMETA, Mr Michel Algrin, 25, boulevard
Saint-Germain, 75005 Paris,
France.
On Friday 16 of July 1999 was published in France an outstanding document,
called "UFOs and Defence. What
must we be prepared for ?" ("Les OVNI et la Défense. A quoi doit-on se
préparer ?") This ninety pages report
is the result of an in depth study of UFOs, covering many aspects of the
subject, especially questions of
defence. The study was carried out during several years by an independant
group of former "auditors" at the
very serious Institute of Higher Studies for National Defence, or IHEDN
("Institut des hautes études de défense
nationale"), and of qualified experts from various fields. Before its public
release, it has been sent to French
President of the Republic Jacques Chirac, and to Prime minister Lionel
Jospin.
This Report is prefaced by General Bernard Norlain, of the Air Force, former
Director of IHEDN, and it begins
with a preamble by André Lebeau, former President of the National Center for
Space Studies ("Centre national
d'études spatiales", CNES),the French equivalent of NASA. The group itself,
collective author of the report, is
an association of experts, many of whom are or have been auditors of IHEDN,
and it is presided over by
General Denis Letty, of the Air Force, former auditor(FA) of IHEDN. Its name
"COMETA" stands for
"Committee for in depth studies".
A non exhaustive list of members is given at the beginning, and it is
impressive enough. It includes : General
Bruno Lemoine, of the Air Force (FA of IHEDN), Admiral Marc Merlo (FA of
IHEDN). Michel Algrin, Doctor in
Political Sciences, attorney at law (FA of IHEDN), General Pierre Bescond,
engineer for armaments (FA of
IHEDN), Denis Blancher, Chief National Police superintendant at the Ministry
ot the Interior, Christian Marchal,
chief engineer of the national "corps des Mines", Research Director at the
"National Office of Aeronautical
Research" (ONERA), General Alain Orszag, Phd in physics, engineer for
armaments.
The committee also expresses its gratitude to outside contributors, among
whom : Jean-Jacques Vélasco,
head of SEPRA at CNES, François Louange, President of Fleximage, specialist
of photo analysis, General
Joseph Domange, of the Air Force, general delegate of the Association of
auditors at IHEDN.
General Norlain tells in a short preface how this committee was created.
General Letty came to see him in
March 1995, when he was Director of IHEDN, to discuss his project of
committee on UFOs. Norlain assured
him of his interest and addressed him to the Association of Auditors (AA) of
IHEDN, which in turn gave him its
support. It is interesting to recall here that, twenty years ago, it was a
report of that same Association which led
to the creation of GEPAN, the first unit for UFO study, at CNES.
As a result, several members of the committee come from the Association of
Auditors of IHEDN,joined by other
experts. Most of them hold, or have held, important functions in defence,
industry, teaching, research,or various
central administrations. General Norlain expresses hope that this report will
help develop new efforts nationally,
and an indispensable international cooperation.
General Letty, as president of COMETA, points to the main theme of the
report, which is that
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
A summary of the 1999 French Cometa report, with 500 hard cases supporting
the extraterrestrial hypothesis.
Alfred Lambremont Webre, Vancouver, BC
=
http://www.cninews.com/CNI_French.html
The French Report on UFOs and Defence : a short
presentation
by Gildas Bourdais
It must be stressed here that this is an independant report, written by a
private association called COMETA. It is
summarized here with the approval of the authors.
To translate and publish the report itself, in part or in its integrality,
permission should be asked by writing to the
administrator of the association COMETA, Mr Michel Algrin, 25, boulevard
Saint-Germain, 75005 Paris,
France.
On Friday 16 of July 1999 was published in France an outstanding document,
called "UFOs and Defence. What
must we be prepared for ?" ("Les OVNI et la Défense. A quoi doit-on se
préparer ?") This ninety pages report
is the result of an in depth study of UFOs, covering many aspects of the
subject, especially questions of
defence. The study was carried out during several years by an independant
group of former "auditors" at the
very serious Institute of Higher Studies for National Defence, or IHEDN
("Institut des hautes études de défense
nationale"), and of qualified experts from various fields. Before its public
release, it has been sent to French
President of the Republic Jacques Chirac, and to Prime minister Lionel
Jospin.
This Report is prefaced by General Bernard Norlain, of the Air Force, former
Director of IHEDN, and it begins
with a preamble by André Lebeau, former President of the National Center for
Space Studies ("Centre national
d'études spatiales", CNES),the French equivalent of NASA. The group itself,
collective author of the report, is
an association of experts, many of whom are or have been auditors of IHEDN,
and it is presided over by
General Denis Letty, of the Air Force, former auditor(FA) of IHEDN. Its name
"COMETA" stands for
"Committee for in depth studies".
A non exhaustive list of members is given at the beginning, and it is
impressive enough. It includes : General
Bruno Lemoine, of the Air Force (FA of IHEDN), Admiral Marc Merlo (FA of
IHEDN). Michel Algrin, Doctor in
Political Sciences, attorney at law (FA of IHEDN), General Pierre Bescond,
engineer for armaments (FA of
IHEDN), Denis Blancher, Chief National Police superintendant at the Ministry
ot the Interior, Christian Marchal,
chief engineer of the national "corps des Mines", Research Director at the
"National Office of Aeronautical
Research" (ONERA), General Alain Orszag, Phd in physics, engineer for
armaments.
The committee also expresses its gratitude to outside contributors, among
whom : Jean-Jacques Vélasco,
head of SEPRA at CNES, François Louange, President of Fleximage, specialist
of photo analysis, General
Joseph Domange, of the Air Force, general delegate of the Association of
auditors at IHEDN.
General Norlain tells in a short preface how this committee was created.
General Letty came to see him in
March 1995, when he was Director of IHEDN, to discuss his project of
committee on UFOs. Norlain assured
him of his interest and addressed him to the Association of Auditors (AA) of
IHEDN, which in turn gave him its
support. It is interesting to recall here that, twenty years ago, it was a
report of that same Association which led
to the creation of GEPAN, the first unit for UFO study, at CNES.
As a result, several members of the committee come from the Association of
Auditors of IHEDN,joined by other
experts. Most of them hold, or have held, important functions in defence,
industry, teaching, research,or various
central administrations. General Norlain expresses hope that this report will
help develop new efforts nationally,
and an indispensable international cooperation.
General Letty, as president of COMETA, points to the main theme of the
report, which is that the accumulation
of well documented observations compells us now to consider all hypotheses as
to the origin of UFOs,
especially extraterrestrial hypotheses.
The committee then presents the contents of the study : In a first part,
presentation of some remarkable cases,
both French and foreign ; In a second part, they describe the present
organization of research in France and
abroad, and studies made by scientists worldwide which may bring partial
explanations, in accordance with
known laws of physics. The main global explanations are then reviewed, from
secret crafts to extraterrestrial
manifestations ; In a third part, will be examined measures to be taken
regarding defence, from information of
pilots, both civilian and military, to strategic, political and religious
consequences, should the extraterrestrial
hypothesis be confirmed.
Part I : "Facts and Testimonies"
Many of the cases selected are well known by most researchers, and need only
to be mentioned here. They are
:
-Testimonies of French pilots. M. Giraud, pilot of
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: List members engaging in this thread are at a disadvantage, because they are victims of a covert information war by the USA government to suppress facts of the extraterrestrial presence. Possibly, but it is far more likely that the covert information war is aimed at convincing us that there IS an extraterrestrial presence by using reverse psychology. What could be more convincing to people who mistrust the government than the rumor that it was hiding something? This is a tried and true psy-war tactic, dating back millennia. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
Andrew Hennessey wrote: thanks samantha - I was going to use the china argument - if you've never been there and touched it - how do you know it physically exists. This is PURE BULLSHIT. And stupid to boot. You KNOW China exists and so do the rest of us. The existence of China is an agreed upon fact. If you doubt the existence of China, it's because there is a problem with your mind, and not with the existence of China. This is what I pointed out in a previous post about guys like you damaging others' psyches. You can't prove your point because it's not real. So what do you need to do? You need to destroy in a healthier mind than yours, the 'obviously true' by imposing doubt of perception when it isn't there. I am saying that UFOs and ETs are REAL, others are saying that all the proof for them are heresay because you cannot touch it. so to try to help people get a more real perspective on it - I then say to them We can't touch ET's - we can't touch China - but we both know that they exist hope that clears it up andrew No,actually it doesn't. The " reality " of China, and the "reality " of ETs are NOT coequal. I can claim that tooth faeries are as real as lug nut. But that doesn't make it so. J2 A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
In a message dated 00-05-27 21:13:12 EDT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Possibly, but it is far more likely that the covert information war is aimed at convincing us that there IS an extraterrestrial presence by using reverse psychology. What could be more convincing to people who mistrust the government than the rumor that it was hiding something? This is a tried and true psy-war tactic, dating back millennia. Nice try.your hypothesis goes against the wieght of the physical evidence (500 cases; French report)...X-Files has made a fortune off that hypothesisAnd there does appear to be a huge black ET-UFO-Mimic operations by the covert USA government. I encountered two possible such operations last week while on the air on radio talk shows in Jackson, MI and West Hampton, MA. Nessie, I believe you have it backwards. The purpose of the black operations is to attempt to mimic and hence mask authentic Universe presence here. The black operations are an attempt by a secret government to appropriate the extraterrestrial presence, and hence extend its strangle hold over Earth's resources and population. What is the extraterrestrial presence? I beleive it is the "Zoo hypothesis." You can read more about this in Exopolitics, BTW. Alfred Webre _ http://www.universebooks.com A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
In a message dated 00-05-27 21:43:19 EDT, you write:
No,actually it doesn't. The " reality " of China, and the "reality " of
ETs are NOT coequal.
I can claim that tooth faeries are as real as lug nut. But that doesn't
make it so.
Deal with this reality from French fighter pilots and 500 other hard
scientifically validated cases. Let go of your scifi rhetoric and confront
the integrity, probity, and overwhelming evidence of the French military and
scientific
avante-garde. American minds are filled with nonsense about ET, spawned
by 50 years of USA secret government mind control. Alfred Webre
=
A summary of the 1999 French Cometa report, with 500 hard cases supporting
the extraterrestrial hypothesis.
Alfred Lambremont Webre, Vancouver, BC
=
http://www.cninews.com/CNI_French.html
The French Report on UFOs and Defence : a short
presentation
by Gildas Bourdais
It must be stressed here that this is an independant report, written by a
private association called COMETA. It is
summarized here with the approval of the authors.
To translate and publish the report itself, in part or in its integrality,
permission should be asked by writing to the
administrator of the association COMETA, Mr Michel Algrin, 25, boulevard
Saint-Germain, 75005 Paris,
France.
On Friday 16 of July 1999 was published in France an outstanding document,
called "UFOs and Defence. What
must we be prepared for ?" ("Les OVNI et la Défense. A quoi doit-on se
préparer ?") This ninety pages report
is the result of an in depth study of UFOs, covering many aspects of the
subject, especially questions of
defence. The study was carried out during several years by an independant
group of former "auditors" at the
very serious Institute of Higher Studies for National Defence, or IHEDN
("Institut des hautes études de défense
nationale"), and of qualified experts from various fields. Before its public
release, it has been sent to French
President of the Republic Jacques Chirac, and to Prime minister Lionel
Jospin.
This Report is prefaced by General Bernard Norlain, of the Air Force, former
Director of IHEDN, and it begins
with a preamble by André Lebeau, former President of the National Center for
Space Studies ("Centre national
d'études spatiales", CNES),the French equivalent of NASA. The group itself,
collective author of the report, is
an association of experts, many of whom are or have been auditors of IHEDN,
and it is presided over by
General Denis Letty, of the Air Force, former auditor(FA) of IHEDN. Its name
"COMETA" stands for
"Committee for in depth studies".
A non exhaustive list of members is given at the beginning, and it is
impressive enough. It includes : General
Bruno Lemoine, of the Air Force (FA of IHEDN), Admiral Marc Merlo (FA of
IHEDN). Michel Algrin, Doctor in
Political Sciences, attorney at law (FA of IHEDN), General Pierre Bescond,
engineer for armaments (FA of
IHEDN), Denis Blancher, Chief National Police superintendant at the Ministry
ot the Interior, Christian Marchal,
chief engineer of the national "corps des Mines", Research Director at the
"National Office of Aeronautical
Research" (ONERA), General Alain Orszag, Phd in physics, engineer for
armaments.
The committee also expresses its gratitude to outside contributors, among
whom : Jean-Jacques Vélasco,
head of SEPRA at CNES, François Louange, President of Fleximage, specialist
of photo analysis, General
Joseph Domange, of the Air Force, general delegate of the Association of
auditors at IHEDN.
General Norlain tells in a short preface how this committee was created.
General Letty came to see him in
March 1995, when he was Director of IHEDN, to discuss his project of
committee on UFOs. Norlain assured
him of his interest and addressed him to the Association of Auditors (AA) of
IHEDN, which in turn gave him its
support. It is interesting to recall here that, twenty years ago, it was a
report of that same Association which led
to the creation of GEPAN, the first unit for UFO study, at CNES.
As a result, several members of the committee come from the Association of
Auditors of IHEDN,joined by other
experts. Most of them hold, or have held, important functions in defence,
industry, teaching, research,or various
central administrations. General Norlain expresses hope that this report will
help develop new efforts nationally,
and an indispensable international cooperation.
General Letty, as president of COMETA, points to the main theme of the
report, which is that the accumulation
of well documented observations compells us now to consider all hypotheses as
to the origin of UFOs,
especially extraterrestrial hypotheses.
The committee then presents the contents of the study : In a first part,
presentation of some remarkable cases,
both French and foreign ; In a second part, they describe the present
organization of research in France and
abroad, and studies made by scientists worldwide
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
I think the point is missed here Andrew. We both DON'T know that ET's exist, (UFO's exist absolutely) we do both know that China exists, thus there is a conflict and this argument does not hold water. What evidence is there that UFO's (and I mean any of them) are physical craft, being flown/driven by material "alien" beings from somewhere other than Earth? My contention is that there is nothing but stories told by witnesses or abductees. If one were to believe them, what evidence is there that these beings did not reveal lies, or deliberately conceal the truth of their identity? Again I believe there is no evidence to support this view. The "fact" of intelligent life elsewhere is NOT proven, there is NO evidence for it at all (my opinion but backed with hard science). That intelligent ET's are visiting Earth for ANY reason is a BELIEF, and as such is unassailable since no argument I put forth to refute it will stand up to your innate belief in it. Mind you, having said all that I am NOT saying FOR CERTAIN that there is no intelligent life elsewhere, OR that that life is NOT coming here, or that NO UFO's could ever be real alien craft from elsewhere (to say that would imply that I have access to all data and near omniscience, which I don't). The odds are sorely stacked against it, in my book, but it is not an impossibility. I prefer more prosaic explanations before jumping to a less likely solution. We may have to agree to disagree on this issue. On Sat, 27 May 2000, Andrew Hennessey wrote: thanks samantha - I was going to use the china argument - if you've never been there and touched it - how do you know it physically exists. This is PURE BULLSHIT. And stupid to boot. You KNOW China exists and so do the rest of us. The existence of China is an agreed upon fact. If you doubt the existence of China, it's because there is a problem with your mind, and not with the existence of China. This is what I pointed out in a previous post about guys like you damaging others' psyches. You can't prove your point because it's not real. So what do you need to do? You need to destroy in a healthier mind than yours, the 'obviously true' by imposing doubt of perception when it isn't there. I am saying that UFOs and ETs are REAL, others are saying that all the proof for them are heresay because you cannot touch it. so to try to help people get a more real perspective on it - I then say to them We can't touch ET's - we can't touch China - but we both know that they exist hope that clears it up andrew A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om "Welcome to the desert of the real." Morpheus, in The Matrix "My God it's full of stars!" Dave Bowman, in 2001: A Space Odyssey ___ Why pay when you don't have to? Get AltaVista Free Internet Access now! http://jump.altavista.com/freeaccess4.go ___ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
This post is a good example of fair treatment and good natured back and forth dialogue without the personal affronts. Incidentally I agree with Nessie and say PLEASE tell us what you have, and point us to the references that you have intrigued us with in this post! I would also point out that the ability to induce something by technological means can never be proof that it was the method used in your (or anyone elses) case [as Nessie rightly points out]. However if it can be done and there are "abductees" who give "testimony" that what is done to them is the result of such technology, and it is being done by good (bad?) old humans, no aliens necessary, THEN logically there "evidence" of human origin for ET and abduction phenomenon MUST be given at least equal weight as that the abductors are in fact ET's as you (and others) allege. Wouldn't you agree? On Sat, 27 May 2000, nessie wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: It was a blond chinese person You're not talking about those mummies that turned up in the desert not long ago, are you? Those were Celts. I'm a Celt; lemme tell you a little about the tribe. Despite long standing rumors to the contrary we Celts are actually mere mortals. We're a little smarter than the average mortal, and definitely better looking, but we're mortals nonetheless. Oh, the ignominy. But there it is. Personally, I'd rather be ET, but hey, what can ya do? So what were my long lost lost cousins doing in China so long ago? We get around, always have. We're found on every continent and a lot of places in between. Except for "Mother" England, we are welcome everywhere we go. If I were Chinese, I'd want some Celts to show up at the door, too. It's a sign of luck. A Celt at you door is just about the best you can hope for in life. Open up. Let us in. We're really damn handy to have on the team. We work hard, fight well and tell the best stories. You want us around, really you do. I was abducted and was privvy to imagery for which there was no a priori media coverage and fictions ie. I'm sure you believe it is so. It may even be so. Nevertheless Persinger, Frey, et al, have presented more than sufficient data to infer that the abduction experience can be artificially induced via technological and hypnotic means. While I can't dismiss your claim out of hand, I do feel it prudent to go with Occum on this one until more data comes in. No offense. in 1980 - I more recently identified my hosts with the aid of modern mythology however Sounds interesting. Tell us about it. we may start with, india, or africa, or greece, or china, or south america, or europe for the historical stuff - They're all good. You pick. or maybe refer to a book written by a researcher in 1790, Sounds interesting. Tell us about it. or look at the stuff Dr John Dee was into in elizabethan times - Which stuff? or maybe I could get my mate Dave to send you the video we made of Brenda Butler - who had a lodger called david daniels who scared the living daylights out of her, Now you're talking. Here's the address: nessie c/o Bound Together Books 1369 Haight St. San Francisco CA 94117 or the work we did here on the cottinglea faeries photos and how they had been painted with faeries to cover up shapechangeing elsie wright - we have an original photo of her looking Very Large and not at all like a young slim lady I have real trouble taking this seriously, but I sure would like to see the photo. And if I were you, I wouldn't call them by name like that. They don't like it. Don't make them mad. You don't want to be Taken, do you? Call them the "Fair Folk" or the "Good People" of the "Other People" or something like that. A word to the wise is sufficient. why you might be on the internet at all I only do what the voices tell me. And you? A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
In this quote below from the Belgian report summary posted by Alfred there is stated that various phenomena that are "non-scientific" are dismissed. Why is this? What criteria did they use to decide this? It closes down a whole avenue of research in favor of the idea of "aliens". This does not seem very scientific to me. In the same chapter are next studied "global hypotheses". Hoaxes are rare and easily detected. Some non-scientific are put aside, such as conspiration and manipulation by very secret, powerful groups, parapsychic phenomena, collective hallucinations. The hypothesis of secret weapons is also regarded as very improbable, the same as "intoxication" at the time of the cold war, or just natural phenomena. We are then left with various extraterestrial hypotheses. "Welcome to the desert of the real." Morpheus, in The Matrix "My God it's full of stars!" Dave Bowman, in 2001: A Space Odyssey ___ Why pay when you don't have to? Get AltaVista Free Internet Access now! http://jump.altavista.com/freeaccess4.go ___ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
At 07:39 PM 27, 05, , 2000 -0700, you wrote: I think the point is missed here Andrew. We both DON'T know that ET's exist, (UFO's exist absolutely) we do both know that China exists, thus there is a conflict and this argument does not hold water. I've never been there, to China, never touched it - seen some images on tv - but they can do marvellous things with photoshop these days - sure there are some vases and stuff but those could've been made anywhere. Spielbergs Dreamworks can do incredible stuff. [this is the ultimate sceptical argument by the way - first coined by descartes it is called epistemological scepticism - 'how can we know anything' its used a lot on 'science lists' when the sleazy unfalsifiable passengers on the gravy train are confronted with the paradoxes central to their lunatic 'scientific BELIEFS' - I use the argument here because we're all in rational mode - and well - its the bottom line for any sceptic - get familiar with it - it'll get more frequent as the scientific world view collapses into 'magical realism'] If you are asking me to believe that because there is 'anecdotal and third party evidence - eg. vases that alledge that they come from a place called china along with a story that has some strange names in it - and you expect me to believe because of that that china exists - then EQUALLY - there is as much if not more CULTURAL THIRD PARTY EVIDENCE for EXTRA TERRESTRIAL/non-human culture and beings as there is for CHINA. So if you tell me that CHINA definitely exists - then Non-Human Intelligent life exists on this planet too. So on those simple grounds alone - if you dismiss ET's [and I think that there has been and still is plenty of non-human intelligent life on this planet] - then you cannot claim that your KITCHEN exists if you cannot see it at any one time. There are Images of Non-Human Beings worshipped, drawn, painted and communed with since the dawn of recorded time on this planet. Dismiss that evidence - and well, who needs a kitchen anyway ? :) andrew A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
Nessie, You don't speak for all the Celts. You are still trying to figure out if there are even aliens, yet you are inplying you are above average intelliegence. On the other hand Andrew and I have both had extensive personal dealings with Ets and written books on this. We are termed 'Celt'. In my case I have had personal daily communications with local ETs (Venusians etc) for years but stopped in 1984. Here is Andrew's testimony below and mine after. He already posted it here but got no response. http://www.egroups.com/message/armageddon-or-newage/1237?start=1224 Andrew wrote I was abducted and was privvy to imagery for which there was no a priori media coverage and fictions ie. -Original Message- From: nessie [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm a Celt; lemme tell you a little about the tribe. Despite long standing rumors to the contrary we Celts are actually mere mortals. We're a little smarter than the average mortal, and definitely better looking, but we're mortals nonetheless. Oh, the ignominy. But there it is. Personally, I'd rather be ET, but hey, what can ya do? So what were my long lost lost cousins doing in China so long ago? We get around, always have. We're found on every continent and a lot of places in between. Except for "Mother" England, we are welcome everywhere we go. If I were Chinese, I'd want some Celts to show up at the door, too. It's a sign of luck. A Celt at you door is just about the best you can hope for in life. Open up. Let us in. We're really damn handy to have on the team. We work hard, fight well and tell the best stories. You want us around, really you do. ___- Recent ET contact with those stationed at Death valley. This occured about 2 years ago and I have had more esoteric contact in the last few months. Nicky I read Dreamland in the Rockies by Branton about the ETs under Death Valley. After trying to contemplate the meaning of it all, all evening, when I woke up in the morning there were 4 men trying really strongly to say hello by telepathy. I knew it was those Ets under Death Valley as they said it was. It was so overpowering like yelling, I didn't know what to do as I didn't want to be forced into communication, but 4 of them - too many. I wondered if they were trying to control me so ignored them. They kept it up for 4 days and in the end I replied - I'm sorry I just don't like being overpowered like this, it is making my mind numb do you have a woman on your base? If so may I please speak with one woman? Straight away this was arranged and I could hear them analyzing who to choose. They must have tried to pick my personality type which to them was some homey artistic type who loved cooking etc. I am an artist who loves cooking so OK we were definately in tune there emotionally. We sussed each other out the way women do with feelings and got quite a rapport going woman to woman style..One problem I only picked up one single word after 3 days constant communication. But she was definately my type of friend. But no head connection. The only word was Lyra and I'm sure of that as I heard it a few times. I had to say by telepathy back, I really like this woman but I can't hear her, do you have anyone else who I may speak with please? Immediately another woman came, they may have had her as second choice as they didn't have to spend time looking. She was so intelligent and sharp and clear that it was making me get a headache. Razor sharp thoughts maybe a techno wizz or something. I felt as if my brain was on speed and I was unable to cope so after maybe half a day I said, really sorry but this lady is too intelligent for me.I couldn't get a message. Then they had another think and picked out another lady who had a million ideas and her mind was so cluttered with such a variety of experiences looked at from all angles that I couldn't pick out any one thing she was saying.I had to throw in the towel after a couple of days and say I just can't pick up one single particular thing.Though there was plenty of it. Then they had a good think and then a man came through. A man in charge there. He was as clear as can be as if talking face to face. Perfect reception, but I think they used technology for it too. But he said that there were many people from throughout the universe who were working out ways to stop some other Ets from activating the world gridlines to bring the earth into a higher frequency. They said they would not let this occur and had much more advanced technology to stop this.They said they were not interested in giving us messages to live by and were only contacting people who took an interest in the state of the world today. They didn't want to have to explain things as they wanted people to communicate who would already have looked into such matters as global politics and ETs etc They just basically wanted to say and prove that they were here for this reason, to specifically stop the
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
Surely you've heard of the Belgian sightings, tracked by the Belgian Air Force with radar shown on television. Television has also shown talking dinosaurs These are unidentified. That does not make them extra-terrestrial. The Belgian Air Force doesn't think they could be man-made. The Belgian Air Force SAYS it doesn't THINK they could be man-made. (1.) This is opinion, not evidence. (2.) If you believe anything that any NATO power says, without independent corroboration, you are making a serious error in judgment. News reports in the 19th century, documented in "Above Top Secret?" News reports in the 19th century, are REPEATED in "Above Top Secret" By definition, this is hearsay. It's pretty interesting hearsay and worth considering. But it's NOT evidence. Are you in possession of some proof that we had disk-shaped flight capacity before the invention of the airplane? No, but neither are we in possession of proof that there was not disk-shaped flight capacity before the invention of the airplane. Accounts of human flight apparatuses date back to the Mahabharata. Get started reading up on terrestrial UFOs at: http://www.sfbg.com/nessie/15.html Do multiple sightings documented in newspapers before the invention of airplanes mean nothing to you? When something is reported in the newspaper it is REPORTED in the newspaper. A REPORT is not documentation. If I believed everything I read in the newspaper I'd be a sorry, deluded fool indeed. It was the newspaper, remember, that reported America's quintessential UFO, the so-called "Magic Bullet" that killed the president of the United States and wounded the governor of Texas, breaking several bones on the way and making two right angle turns in mid-air in the process, and emerging virtually unscathed at the end, after being fired from one of the world's least accurate rifles by a man the Marines say who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, who was sitting in a position that dictated that in order to hold the rifle at the necessary angle to make the shot would have had to have been able to place the butt of the stock and his own shoulder several inches inside the wall of the room from which he is supposed to have fired from. Oh yeah and, this bullet is also reported to have entered the back of Kennedy's head and exited through the front even though the big (exit) hole it left was in the back of the head and the small (entrance) hole was in the front of the head. Newspapers? Yeah right. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
A pattern is emerging clearly and I finally think I understand what is going on here. Thank you, nessie, for helping to make it so obvious. Samantha In a message dated 5/26/00 10:30:58 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Surely you've heard of the Belgian sightings, tracked by the Belgian Air Force with radar shown on television. Television has also shown talking dinosaurs These are unidentified. That does not make them extra-terrestrial. The Belgian Air Force doesn't think they could be man-made. The Belgian Air Force SAYS it doesn't THINK they could be man-made. (1.) This is opinion, not evidence. (2.) If you believe anything that any NATO power says, without independent corroboration, you are making a serious error in judgment. News reports in the 19th century, documented in "Above Top Secret?" News reports in the 19th century, are REPEATED in "Above Top Secret" By definition, this is hearsay. It's pretty interesting hearsay and worth considering. But it's NOT evidence. Are you in possession of some proof that we had disk-shaped flight capacity before the invention of the airplane? No, but neither are we in possession of proof that there was not disk-shaped flight capacity before the invention of the airplane. Accounts of human flight apparatuses date back to the Mahabharata. Get started reading up on terrestrial UFOs at: http://www.sfbg.com/nessie/15.html Do multiple sightings documented in newspapers before the invention of airplanes mean nothing to you? When something is reported in the newspaper it is REPORTED in the newspaper. A REPORT is not documentation. If I believed everything I read in the newspaper I'd be a sorry, deluded fool indeed. It was the newspaper, remember, that reported America's quintessential UFO, the so-called "Magic Bullet" that killed the president of the United States and wounded the governor of Texas, breaking several bones on the way and making two right angle turns in mid-air in the process, and emerging virtually unscathed at the end, after being fired from one of the world's least accurate rifles by a man the Marines say who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, who was sitting in a position that dictated that in order to hold the rifle at the necessary angle to make the shot would have had to have been able to place the butt of the stock and his own shoulder several inches inside the wall of the room from which he is supposed to have fired from. Oh yeah and, this bullet is also reported to have entered the back of Kennedy's head and exited through the front even though the big (exit) hole it left was in the back of the head and the small (entrance) hole was in the front of the head. Newspapers? Yeah right. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
In a message dated 5/26/00 10:40:59 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A pattern is emerging clearly and I finally think I understand what is going on here. Thank you, nessie, for helping to make it so obvious. Samantha ***For those who understand no explanation is necessary. For those who do not no explanation will suffice. Carl A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
At 01:14 AM 26, 05, , 2000 EDT, you wrote: In a message dated 5/24/00 10:34:54 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: BUT one must not think that your ideas are beyond criticism, SO if you post then there will be people who disagree, and if you have a theory some may want proof in support of it. I'd never dream that my ideas are above criticism, and never once implied otherwise. I think the screech level that arises on this list when anyone brings up the subject of UFOs is quite telling. There's plenty of evidence, anecdotal and otherwise, that unidentified objects have been flying in our skies for a century or more. There's evidence, not proof. But what do any of us have that is proof of anything? Have you ever met Clinton? Are you sure he exists? Could he be a digital image? If you met him, can you prove he wasn't a cyborg? I mean, get real. Samantha thanks samantha - I was going to use the china argument - if you've never been there and touched it - how do you know it physically exists. There is as much 'proof' for china as there is for ufo's - in fact the physical proof of ets and their DNA already exists from a strand of hair analysed after an abduction in australia etc Its a form of debate called Logical Realism 'touch verification theory' and in the case of ufo's [with miles of camcorder footage from all over the planet - really massive compilations of footsge, archaeological evidence etc] - is used out of context here on this list. There's nothing wrong with trying to be rational - but much in the same way that we should run with the inductive hypothesis that there is a place called china - and see where it leads - see where the conspiracy is - so we should be running with the not very vast conjectural leap that there are ETs - and see where that leads - where the conspiracy is. Lets all rationally analyse the belief system that there are ETs colluding with government agencies - an analysis prevented by the denial of ETs. andrew A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
Samantha, there have been "sightings" of all kinds throughout history, it is you, and others of similar mindset (those who are inclined to believe in alien visitation, not that there is anything wrong with that) who classify these things as UFO's flown by aliens, with not one lick of evidence to support it. People have been seeing things and making mention of it since man has been around, I am inclined to believe that they are seeing something real, but I can only conclude that it is a phenomenon that as yet is unexplained, it could be alien driven machines, but I doubt it for a whole host of reasons. Let's not forget that people in the past interpreted these things within their own cultural context, thus to some they were angels, or devils, or faeries, or ghosts, or other fabulous creatures. Why are those explanations not just as valid as your theory that they are UFO's driven by aliens coming to earth from elsewhere? I am open to possibilities on this issue, but always take a more prosaic view especially towards modern day (post 1947) sightings. The upsurge in UFO sightings, in the USA in recent times is due IN MY OPINION to secret aircraft and these flights and misrepresentation as UFO's and scoffed at by real scientists serve to divert attention from black projects and cover them perfectly. That is a much more prosaic and plausible explanation than that they are aliens from somewhere else, here for some unnamed purpose. Don't you agree? Yet I can never say they all are, or even conclusively that ANY of them are as I describe them. It is just my belief. As for older sightings, I haven't a clue, although I am not averse to the idea of remnanats of super advanced HUMAN societies from the past still hidden in secluded spots sending out "ships" to spy on our development as ONE explanation (even though it is almost as far fetched as the mysterious aliens from elsewhere and might even be said to be ludicrous by some). I am also open to the interpretation that these things have been given by those who examine the phenomena from a cultural context, that they are glimpses of some other dimension, or spiritual beings of some kind, or archetypes from the collective unconscious of humanity. I also think they might be living things that are rarely seen and have never been studied, and finally that they MIGHT, just MIGHT be alien driven machines. A lot of these possibilities are way down on my list of probability. My main point is not to limit your conclusions to one possible explanation when there are many possibilities. On Thu, 25 May 2000, "Samantha L." wrote: In a message dated 5/25/00 8:27:43 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm not waiting for evidence. Here I am discussing it with absolutely no evidence whatsoever. What I would like someone to show me IS evidence. Real evidence. Not stories and anecdotes, and fantasy science fiction presented as if that was real. Surely you've heard of the Belgian sightings, tracked by the Belgian Air Force with radar shown on television. These are unidentified. The Belgian Air Force doesn't think they could be man-made. News reports in the 19th century, documented in "Above Top Secret?" Are you in possession of some proof that we had disk-shaped flight capacity before the invention of the airplane? Do multiple sightings documented in newspapers before the invention of airplanes mean nothing to you? Samantha A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om "Welcome to the desert of the real." Morpheus, in The Matrix "My God it's full of stars!" Dave Bowman, in 2001: A Space Odyssey
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: There is as much 'proof' for china as there is for ufo's - There's plenty of proof for UFOs. What's lacking is proof that they're extraterrestrial. Unless, of course, there's something to this claim: in fact the physical proof of ets and their DNA already exists from a strand of hair analysed after an abduction in australia etc Show us this. I'll believe it when I see it, if in fact that is what it is. Showing us an account of the matter will not suffice. Show us the actual code, as well as the evidence that it couldn't be of terrestrial origin. Lets all rationally analyze the belief system that there are ETs colluding with government agencies - an analysis prevented by the denial of ETs. The lack of ETs in no way prevents a belief system that is predicated on their existence. Nor does it prevent a rational analysis of that belief system. Au contrair, rationally ascertaining the likelihood of the presence of ETs is the first step in a rational analysis. Note I said presence, and not existence. The existence of ETs is pretty much a mathematical certainty. Count stars. Hell yes, there are ETs. We'd be foolish and vain to assume there were no ETs. They're out there, alright. But are they here? Maybe. But we have no proof. To proceed from an a priori assumption is irrational. The world is overrun with belief systems based on a priori assumptions. They're all irrational. yet the hottest non-human UFO news on the planet as far as I'm concerned is the ease with which we can talk about reptile life forms and dig up piles of contemporary and archaeological evidence to qualify what we're talking about. OK, let's see the evidence of sentient reptiles, "shape shifting" or otherwise. Trot it out. I'll look. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
This is all well and good. Speculation and examination of possibilities is a good thing. If you believe that the evidence that is available supports your idea that (some) UFO's (as I'm sure even you die hard ET believers will admit that some UFO's fall into other categories, like secret aircraft, misidentification, etc.) are ALIEN craft being driven/flown by material beings from somewhere other than Earth, then good for you. That does not mean that everyone has to believe it. But feel free to state your case accordingly. I will ask this question again here for you Andrew and others who believe the ET theory to explain UFO's. IF, UFO's (at least those that are truly anomolous and unidentified) ARE NON-human in origin, as you allege, then what evidence is there that they are MATERIAL craft being driven/flown by ALIEN beings from somewhere other than Earth, and not, for example, extradimensional, or demonic, or as yet unidentified natural phenomena? Even if one was to resort to the abduction phenomenon and rely on abductees totally subjective experience to go by, what evidence is there that the beings they purport to see and interact with are LIVING and MATERIAL and from somewhere other than Earth? If one was to accept that they told the abductee that they were from Orions Nebula (or wherever) and that they were here for (whatever reason) what evidence is there that they are not LYING to cover up some other thing? Some UFO's MAY be craft from elsewhere but let us not be so demanding that one explanation fit the bill, and let us get priorities of evidence in line. It is MUCH more probable that UFO's are something other than alien driven craft from somewhere other than Earth, and that is true no matter what way you slice it. BUT, that does not mean they all are or that none of them are alien driven craft from somewhere else. Let us at least be circumspect in how we handle "evidence" and not give less likely explanations more weight than they deserve simply because it supports our mindset. Extraterrestrial life? Yes. Extraterrestrial Intelligent life? MY OPINION and belief is, NO. UFO's fall in several categories as to identity. See my earlier post for some of my ideas, each of which has, in my opinion a degree of probability, as does the idea that UFO's are alien craft. I think the preponderance of evidence (as well as physics and logic) make the ET origin of UFO's a very low probability, though NOT zero by any means. On Fri, 26 May 2000, Andrew Hennessey wrote: At 01:14 AM 26, 05, , 2000 EDT, you wrote: In a message dated 5/24/00 10:34:54 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: BUT one must not think that your ideas are beyond criticism, SO if you post then there will be people who disagree, and if you have a theory some may want proof in support of it. I'd never dream that my ideas are above criticism, and never once implied otherwise. I think the screech level that arises on this list when anyone brings up the subject of UFOs is quite telling. There's plenty of evidence, anecdotal and otherwise, that unidentified objects have been flying in our skies for a century or more. There's evidence, not proof. But what do any of us have that is proof of anything? Have you ever met Clinton? Are you sure he exists? Could he be a digital image? If you met him, can you prove he wasn't a cyborg? I mean, get real. Samantha thanks samantha - I was going to use the china argument - if you've never been there and touched it - how do you know it physically exists. There is as much 'proof' for china as there is for ufo's - in fact the physical proof of ets and their DNA already exists from a strand of hair analysed after an abduction in australia etc Its a form of debate called Logical Realism 'touch verification theory' and in the case of ufo's [with miles of camcorder footage from all over the planet - really massive compilations of footsge, archaeological evidence etc] - is used out of context here on this list. There's nothing wrong with trying to be rational - but much in the same way that we should run with the inductive hypothesis that there is a place called china - and see where it leads - see where the conspiracy is - so we should be running with the not very vast conjectural leap that there are ETs - and see where that leads - where the conspiracy is. Lets all rationally analyse the belief system that there are ETs colluding with government agencies - an analysis prevented by the denial of ETs. andrew A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
Show us this. I'll believe it when I see it, if in fact that is what it is. Showing us an account of the matter will not suffice. Show us the actual code, as well as the evidence that it couldn't be of terrestrial origin. It was a blond chinese person [ a bit of a contradiction and she had a DNA marker that has not existed on this planet for a Very long time. [all of this depends on our definition of what a human is though - in fact where humans came from originally] - Yes, I think that there's a lot more to life than the surface of this planet - maybe the subsurface too. Note I said presence, and not existence. The existence of ETs is pretty much a mathematical certainty. Count stars. Hell yes, there are ETs. We'd be foolish and vain to assume there were no ETs. They're out there, alright. But are they here? Maybe. But we have no proof. To proceed from an a priori assumption is irrational. The world is overrun with belief systems based on a priori assumptions. They're all irrational. I was abducted and was privvy to imagery for which there was no a priori media coverage and fictions ie. in 1980 - I more recently identified my hosts with the aid of modern mythology however. yet the hottest non-human UFO news on the planet as far as I'm concerned is the ease with which we can talk about reptile life forms and dig up piles of contemporary and archaeological evidence to qualify what we're talking about. OK, let's see the evidence of sentient reptiles, "shape shifting" or otherwise. Trot it out. I'll look. thats kind of you - but its a big topic - we may start with, india, or africa, or greece, or china, or south america, or europe for the historical stuff - or maybe refer to a book written by a researcher in 1790, or look at the stuff Dr John Dee was into in elizabethan times - or maybe I could get my mate Dave to send you the video we made of Brenda Butler - who had a lodger called david daniels who scared the living daylights out of her, or the work we did here on the cottinglea faeries photos and how they had been painted with faeries to cover up shapechangeing elsie wright - we have an original photo of her looking Very Large and not at all like a young slim lady but since you're in a touch-verify mood - and the epistemological status of all the information that you recieve by computer is a posteriori [after the fact] - one could always argue why you might be on the internet at all - for nothing you will find there could ever prove anything to you ... :) best wishes, andrew A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
Andrew Hennessey wrote: At 01:14 AM 26, 05, , 2000 EDT, you wrote: In a message dated 5/24/00 10:34:54 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: BUT one must not think that your ideas are beyond criticism, SO if you post then there will be people who disagree, and if you have a theory some may want proof in support of it. I'd never dream that my ideas are above criticism, and never once implied otherwise. I think the screech level that arises on this list when anyone brings up the subject of UFOs is quite telling. There's plenty of evidence, anecdotal and otherwise, that unidentified objects have been flying in our skies for a century or more. There's evidence, not proof. But what do any of us have that is proof of anything? Have you ever met Clinton? Are you sure he exists? Could he be a digital image? If you met him, can you prove he wasn't a cyborg? I mean, get real. Samantha Hey Samantha,'get real' is not a figure of speech you use literally. Right? thanks samantha - I was going to use the china argument - if you've never been there and touched it - how do you know it physically exists. This is PURE BULLSHIT. And stupid to boot. You KNOW China exists and so do the rest of us. The existence of China is an agreed upon fact. If you doubt the existence of China, it's because there is a problem with your mind, and not with the existence of China. This is what I pointed out in a previous post about guys like you damaging others' psyches. You can't prove your point because it's not real. So what do you need to do? You need to destroy in a healthier mind than yours, the 'obviously true' by imposing doubt of perception when it isn't there. This is ( low quality ) mind control for purely selfish purposes. This is an act of violence against people's minds. It's called a mind fuck. It's what we don't like when the government, or commercial advertisers subject us to the vary same thing. There is as much 'proof' for china as there is for ufo's - in fact the physical proof of ets and their DNA already exists from a strand of hair analysed after an abduction in australia etc Its a form of debate called Logical Realism 'touch verification theory' and in the case of ufo's [with miles of camcorder footage from all over the planet - really massive compilations of footsge, archaeological evidence etc] - is used out of context here on this list. There's nothing wrong with trying to be rational - but much in the same way that we should run with the inductive hypothesis that there is a place called china - and see where it leads - see where the conspiracy is - so we should be running with the not very vast conjectural leap that there are ETs - and see where that leads - where the conspiracy is. Lets all rationally analyse the belief system that there are ETs colluding with government agencies - an analysis prevented by the denial of ETs. andrew A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
Andrew Hennessey wrote: Show us this. I'll believe it when I see it, if in fact that is what it is. Showing us an account of the matter will not suffice. Show us the actual code, as well as the evidence that it couldn't be of terrestrial origin. It was a blond chinese person My next door neighbor is a blond Chinese person. [ a bit of a contradiction and she had a DNA marker that has not existed on this planet for a Very long time. How can anyone know this. To know this there would have to be very old dna with which to compare. [all of this depends on our definition of what a human is though Here we go again. We all know what a human is. The definition of what a human is is not ambiguous. - in fact where humans came from originally] - Yes, I think that there's a lot more to life than the surface of this planet - maybe the subsurface too. Deep! Note I said presence, and not existence. The existence of ETs is pretty much a mathematical certainty. Count stars. Hell yes, there are ETs. We'd be foolish and vain to assume there were no ETs. They're out there, alright. But are they here? Maybe. But we have no proof. To proceed from an a priori assumption is irrational. The world is overrun with belief systems based on a priori assumptions. They're all irrational. I was abducted and was privvy to imagery for which there was no a priori media coverage and fictions ie. in 1980 - I more recently identified my hosts with the aid of modern mythology however. The above statement shows that (in order of logical probability )... You are a liar. You are deluding yourself. You are insane. You have a pecuniary motive for claiming this. You are somehow getting an emotional payoff. It is true. yet the hottest non-human UFO news on the planet as far as I'm concerned is the ease with which we can talk about reptile life forms and dig up piles of contemporary and archaeological evidence to qualify what we're talking about. OK, let's see the evidence of sentient reptiles, "shape shifting" or otherwise. Trot it out. I'll look. thats kind of you - but its a big topic - we may start with, More stories. More bullshit. More conjecture. Yada, yada, yada. NO HARD EVIDENCE. india, or africa, or greece, or china, or south america, or europe for the historical stuff - or maybe refer to a book written by a researcher in 1790, or look at the stuff Dr John Dee was into in elizabethan times - or maybe I could get my mate Dave to send you the video we made of Brenda Butler - who had a lodger called david daniels who scared the living daylights out of her, or the work we did here on the cottinglea faeries photos and how they had been painted with faeries to cover up shapechangeing elsie wright - we have an original photo of her looking Very Large and not at all like a young slim lady but since you're in a touch-verify mood - and the epistemological status of all the information that you recieve by computer is a posteriori [after the fact] - one could always argue why you might be on the internet at all - for nothing you will find there could ever prove anything to you ... :) best wishes, andrew A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
tenebroust wrote: I don't think this issue is being singled out. J2 merely points out that it is up to those who make claims to offer support of them and not up to those who assert the negative to prove the negative. Of course you also have the option of proposing something and then decline further comment or to give proof. This list is open to nearly all ideas (see disclaimer) for discussion and that includes UFO's and aliens. BUT one must not think that your ideas are beyond criticism, SO if you post then there will be people who disagree, and if you have a theory some may want proof in support of it. On Tue, 23 May 2000, "Samantha L." wrote: In a message dated 5/23/00 10:37:32 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Firstly, We ( J2- made the original claim that there is no hard evidence of intelligent alien existence on Earth )are NOT required to prove that aliens don't exist. The more extraordinary the claim, the more solid the evidence needs to be. There is none. What there is plenty of, is 'stories'. Isn't this discussion moot on a conspiracy THEORY research list? If it's moot, then no one need bring it up. If you mean to say that it's a given where UFOs automatically have the benefit of doubt, then you are obviously wrong. If we waited for hard evidence before discussing all the subjects on this list, it would be a VERY quiet list. I'm not waiting for evidence. Here I am discussing it with absolutely no evidence whatsoever. What I would like someone to show me IS evidence. Real evidence. Not stories and anecdotes, and fantasy science fiction presented as if that was real. Plenty of us here, including you, J2, and the moderator, draw conclusions on subjects based on less than hard evidence. Why is the subject of UFOs being singled out? That's right, and if some people think I'm full of shit they say so. UFOs aren't being signaled out. They are the subject of this thread. Joshua2 Samantha A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om "Welcome to the desert of the real." Morpheus, in The Matrix "My God it's full of stars!" Dave Bowman, in 2001: A Space Odyssey ___ Why pay when you don't have to? Get AltaVista Free Internet Access now! http://jump.altavista.com/freeaccess4.go ___ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
In a message dated 5/25/00 8:27:43 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm not waiting for evidence. Here I am discussing it with absolutely no evidence whatsoever. What I would like someone to show me IS evidence. Real evidence. Not stories and anecdotes, and fantasy science fiction presented as if that was real. Surely you've heard of the Belgian sightings, tracked by the Belgian Air Force with radar shown on television. These are unidentified. The Belgian Air Force doesn't think they could be man-made. News reports in the 19th century, documented in "Above Top Secret?" Are you in possession of some proof that we had disk-shaped flight capacity before the invention of the airplane? Do multiple sightings documented in newspapers before the invention of airplanes mean nothing to you? Samantha A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
In a message dated 5/24/00 10:34:54 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: BUT one must not think that your ideas are beyond criticism, SO if you post then there will be people who disagree, and if you have a theory some may want proof in support of it. I'd never dream that my ideas are above criticism, and never once implied otherwise. I think the screech level that arises on this list when anyone brings up the subject of UFOs is quite telling. There's plenty of evidence, anecdotal and otherwise, that unidentified objects have been flying in our skies for a century or more. There's evidence, not proof. But what do any of us have that is proof of anything? Have you ever met Clinton? Are you sure he exists? Could he be a digital image? If you met him, can you prove he wasn't a cyborg? I mean, get real. Samantha A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
In a message dated 5/23/00 10:37:32 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Firstly, We ( J2- made the original claim that there is no hard evidence of intelligent alien existence on Earth )are NOT required to prove that aliens don't exist. The more extraordinary the claim, the more solid the evidence needs to be. There is none. What there is plenty of, is 'stories'. Isn't this discussion moot on a conspiracy THEORY research list? If we waited for hard evidence before discussing all the subjects on this list, it would be a VERY quiet list. Plenty of us here, including you, J2, and the moderator, draw conclusions on subjects based on less than hard evidence. Why is the subject of UFOs being singled out? Samantha A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
The more you listen to the crap coming out of Congress and the White House and Washington DC in general...I have trouble finding intelligent life here period @@ @@ @@ - Original Message - From: Nurev Ind Research [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 10:38 PM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. . Tony Dickinson wrote: Dear Ten, I would be happier if you could qualify your claim. What is your evidence for there being 'absolutely no "hard" evidence for ET visitatuion' ? You are requesting that he prove a negative on the same basis as proving, (with hard evidence,) the existence of aliens here on Earth. This is a no no. Firstly, We ( J2- made the original claim that there is no hard evidence of intelligent alien existence on Earth )are NOT required to prove that aliens don't exist. The more extraordinary the claim, the more solid the evidence needs to be. There is none. What there is plenty of, is 'stories'. That I, myself, have not knowingly been exposed to any, does not tell me therefore that such evidence does not exist. If you deconstruct this sentence you will find a very a problematic suggestion. These words if taken in a serious context, will cause you to undermine your own judgment. Good judgment is not something that humans have a great abundance of. Good judgment is learned. It is not an instinct we are born with. Unfortunately, there is more to be got from people with bad judgment than good judgment. In our society there are few tools which help develop judgment. School should be one of those tools but it's not. TV could be the best tool but it entirely monopolized by people who know for CERTAIN that a consumer with good judgment is a very bad business idea. Aint gonna happen. Religion...to put it politely is not the right tool for the job. So it's up to each individual to start his/her own Judgment Buildup Program. It's tougher than body building. Every one will encourage you to build up your body. If all your life you had never experienced the lingering aroma of Unicorn droppings, and you are running through a beautiful meadow, and your foot crashes through the crusty crown of cow crap, and the home baked smell of cooling cow pie wafts you in the face, your first thought ought not be - "Oh my god I stepped in Unicorn shit!" That would be bad judgment because you did not correctly judge the physical situation. In nature, those individuals which miss-judge the physical environment more than others, significantly improve the common gene pool by leaving it. The people who diminish your judgment OR your ability to trust your judgment, or prevent you from developing your judgment, are doing you the individual, real harm. This is done both intentionally and unintentionally in our interactions with people. The measure is, how many of the "events " to which you are exposed during the course of any given period of time, turn out to be true. This includes tv, songs, mags, books, commercials, ads, billboards, salespeople, friends, relatives, strangers with candy, and the clergy. The more truth you are exposed to, the more you can collect as valid experiential data to internalize, and be a base to do comparisons with. Judgment ensues when you compare an experience in the moment, with what you have learned is true. This might also be called having common sense. So the following ... Dear Ten, I would be happier if you could qualify your claim. What is your evidence for there being 'absolutely no "hard" evidence for ET visitatuion' ? That I, myself, have not knowingly been exposed to any, does not tell me therefore that such evidence does not exist. is telling you that your experiential internal base WHICH HAS TAKEN YOU YEARS TO ACCUMULATE AND WHICH HAS SUCCESSFULLY BROUGHT YOU TO YOUR PRESENT POINT OF SURVIVAL, should be put aside in order to accept a concept some one wants you to share. This is corruption. You are asked to put asside trustworthy data and replace it with " something else." Unless YOU YOURSELF has ever directly experienced contact with an alien or alien paraphernalia, you have no reason to assume that the more unlikely experience is the true one. (At least for one example, the evidence with regards meteoric microossils would appear to be growing since The Murchison work by Pfloog/Hoyle back in the late 70s. We are not talking about space bacteria or viruses. We are talking about intelligent beings who were reviewed thusly... EXOPOLITICS by Alfred Lambremont Webre Reviewed by Nicky Molloy This is one of the most deeply thought provoking books I've read in some time. Alfred appears right in his perception that almost a majority of US adults know intuitively that we are a part of a populated universe and
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
Dear J2, many thanks for your considered contribution to this thread, a few further commments of clarification re my position if I may: Dear Ten, I would be happier if you could qualify your claim. What is your evidence for there being 'absolutely no "hard" evidence for ET visitatuion' ? You are requesting that he prove a negative on the same basis as proving, (with hard evidence,) the existence of aliens here on Earth. This is a no no. My intent here was not a request for proof, but merely to establish the basis of the strong negative claim made. My own position remains an agnostic one on this issue (coming clean, therefore, I am a skeptic rather than a cynic). Firstly, We ( J2- made the original claim that there is no hard evidence of intelligent alien existence on Earth )are NOT required to prove that aliens don't exist. The more extraordinary the claim, the more solid the evidence needs to be. There is none. What there is plenty of, is 'stories'. That I, myself, have not knowingly been exposed to any, does not tell me therefore that such evidence does not exist. If you deconstruct this sentence you will find a very a problematic suggestion. These words if taken in a serious context, will cause you to undermine your own judgment. Maybe so, but this is a risk that I am prepared to take in guiding my intellectual growth trajectory. I find that a healthy skepticism keep me open-minded and more likely to entertain a wider variety of novel solutions to unsolved problems. I am not happy to hold the view that something is NOT the case on a priori grounds. The search for inconsistencies and falsification would appear to better satisfy my curiosity, whilst at the same time entertaining as wide a number of possibible explanations as conceivable (which ideally should reduce in number as data continues to comes in). In our society there are few tools which help develop judgment. School should be one of those tools but it's not. TV could be the best tool but it entirely monopolized by people who know for CERTAIN that a consumer with good judgment is a very bad business idea. Aint gonna happen. Religion...to put it politely is not the right tool for the job. So it's up to each individual to start his/her own Judgment Buildup Program. It's tougher than body building. Every one will encourage you to build up your body. With these sentiments I would largely agree. The evolution of the brain/nervous system is co-emergent with the evolution of what we call intellegence. The mind/brain system would appear, at least to me, to have evolved as much a problem-seeking device, not just a problem-solving device. Much of our formal education establishment activity (possibly not guided by pedagogic aims alone) involves the teaching of WHAT to learn rather than HOW to learn. I find that my brand of 'healthy skepticism' allows an emergent process of "learning to learn" which scaffolds exponentially (in the face of some degree of task-success, of course). This latter learning-to-learn scenario supercedes (although operates partially in addition to) more 'reflexive', hard-wired behaviours not necessarily requiring much intellectual input under normal circumstances (e.g., blushing, panting, hearing [can you urn your ears 'off' ?] and the chemotoxin regulation processing of the liver). If all your life you had never experienced the lingering aroma of Unicorn droppings, and you are running through a beautiful meadow, and your foot crashes through the crusty crown of cow crap, and the home baked smell of cooling cow pie wafts you in the face, your first thought ought not be - "Oh my god I stepped in Unicorn shit!" OK, here, I would propose that it would be "what's this funny brown stuff on my foot, coincident with that novel aroma ? - have I come across anything like this before ?" It would not be efficient at that time to decide what it was not (the exponetial list of possibilities will always be too large a set). The job at hand is to decide whether and what action be required on my part in the face of this novel situation once recognised as such. The people who diminish your judgment OR your ability to trust your judgment, or prevent you from developing your judgment, are doing you the individual, real harm. This is done both intentionally and unintentionally in our interactions with people. Yep, so keep an open mind and watch how many explanations are quickly ruled out due to lack of knowledge, rather than lack of evidence. It is not always obvious to the uninformed what one might 'need' to know in order to establish existence proof of some phenomenon. [e.g.,knowing what cholestrerol is/functions to do before deciding whether one needs to change diet in order to ingest more or less of it; or knowing what detector device switches causes the wee red light to blink before deciding whether the fuel level is really needing a top up]. On the other hand,
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
I don't think this issue is being singled out. J2 merely points out that it is up to those who make claims to offer support of them and not up to those who assert the negative to prove the negative. Of course you also have the option of proposing something and then decline further comment or to give proof. This list is open to nearly all ideas (see disclaimer) for discussion and that includes UFO's and aliens. BUT one must not think that your ideas are beyond criticism, SO if you post then there will be people who disagree, and if you have a theory some may want proof in support of it. On Tue, 23 May 2000, "Samantha L." wrote: In a message dated 5/23/00 10:37:32 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Firstly, We ( J2- made the original claim that there is no hard evidence of intelligent alien existence on Earth )are NOT required to prove that aliens don't exist. The more extraordinary the claim, the more solid the evidence needs to be. There is none. What there is plenty of, is 'stories'. Isn't this discussion moot on a conspiracy THEORY research list? If we waited for hard evidence before discussing all the subjects on this list, it would be a VERY quiet list. Plenty of us here, including you, J2, and the moderator, draw conclusions on subjects based on less than hard evidence. Why is the subject of UFOs being singled out? Samantha A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om "Welcome to the desert of the real." Morpheus, in The Matrix "My God it's full of stars!" Dave Bowman, in 2001: A Space Odyssey ___ Why pay when you don't have to? Get AltaVista Free Internet Access now! http://jump.altavista.com/freeaccess4.go ___ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
Tony Dickinson wrote: Dear Ten, I would be happier if you could qualify your claim. What is your evidence for there being 'absolutely no "hard" evidence for ET visitatuion' ? You are requesting that he prove a negative on the same basis as proving, (with hard evidence,) the existence of aliens here on Earth. This is a no no. Firstly, We ( J2- made the original claim that there is no hard evidence of intelligent alien existence on Earth )are NOT required to prove that aliens don't exist. The more extraordinary the claim, the more solid the evidence needs to be. There is none. What there is plenty of, is 'stories'. That I, myself, have not knowingly been exposed to any, does not tell me therefore that such evidence does not exist. If you deconstruct this sentence you will find a very a problematic suggestion. These words if taken in a serious context, will cause you to undermine your own judgment. Good judgment is not something that humans have a great abundance of. Good judgment is learned. It is not an instinct we are born with. Unfortunately, there is more to be got from people with bad judgment than good judgment. In our society there are few tools which help develop judgment. School should be one of those tools but it's not. TV could be the best tool but it entirely monopolized by people who know for CERTAIN that a consumer with good judgment is a very bad business idea. Aint gonna happen. Religion...to put it politely is not the right tool for the job. So it's up to each individual to start his/her own Judgment Buildup Program. It's tougher than body building. Every one will encourage you to build up your body. If all your life you had never experienced the lingering aroma of Unicorn droppings, and you are running through a beautiful meadow, and your foot crashes through the crusty crown of cow crap, and the home baked smell of cooling cow pie wafts you in the face, your first thought ought not be - "Oh my god I stepped in Unicorn shit!" That would be bad judgment because you did not correctly judge the physical situation. In nature, those individuals which miss-judge the physical environment more than others, significantly improve the common gene pool by leaving it. The people who diminish your judgment OR your ability to trust your judgment, or prevent you from developing your judgment, are doing you the individual, real harm. This is done both intentionally and unintentionally in our interactions with people. The measure is, how many of the "events " to which you are exposed during the course of any given period of time, turn out to be true. This includes tv, songs, mags, books, commercials, ads, billboards, salespeople, friends, relatives, strangers with candy, and the clergy. The more truth you are exposed to, the more you can collect as valid experiential data to internalize, and be a base to do comparisons with. Judgment ensues when you compare an experience in the moment, with what you have learned is true. This might also be called having common sense. So the following ... Dear Ten, I would be happier if you could qualify your claim. What is your evidence for there being 'absolutely no "hard" evidence for ET visitatuion' ? That I, myself, have not knowingly been exposed to any, does not tell me therefore that such evidence does not exist. is telling you that your experiential internal base WHICH HAS TAKEN YOU YEARS TO ACCUMULATE AND WHICH HAS SUCCESSFULLY BROUGHT YOU TO YOUR PRESENT POINT OF SURVIVAL, should be put aside in order to accept a concept some one wants you to share. This is corruption. You are asked to put asside trustworthy data and replace it with " something else." Unless YOU YOURSELF has ever directly experienced contact with an alien or alien paraphernalia, you have no reason to assume that the more unlikely experience is the true one. (At least for one example, the evidence with regards meteoric microossils would appear to be growing since The Murchison work by Pfloog/Hoyle back in the late 70s. We are not talking about space bacteria or viruses. We are talking about intelligent beings who were reviewed thusly... EXOPOLITICS by Alfred Lambremont Webre Reviewed by Nicky Molloy This is one of the most deeply thought provoking books I've read in some time. Alfred appears right in his perception that almost a majority of US adults know intuitively that we are a part of a populated universe and have been kept in the dark about the implications of this. Can our intuition override deliberate disinformation about this disributed by officials? The rest of society who choose not to believe there is life out there have been deceived from birth. This could possibly constitute the need to evolve more and may even as Alfred suggests reveal the real reason why we have been quarantined from active participation in Universe society, by the rulers of the universe - exopolitical reasons, reasons of Universal politics. Have the rest of
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. . .
From: "A.C. Szul Jr." [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yet Skinner finally saw the light on the season finale.will Mulder ever come back or was he abducted forever? Depends on how much Duchovny is demanding to renew his expired contract, and if Fox is willing to pay... ;-) June A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. . . WAS:Re: [CTRL] EXOPOLITICS - Book R...
Try "Best Available Evidence" http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/ufobrief.html CSETI http://www.cseti.org/ The first document was delivered to the President of the USA (Bill Clinton), the US Congress and Heads of State around the world by an interested group of researchers, funded by et-curious Laurance Rockefeller. About 1000 copies exist. You can purchase copies on the Net for a modest sum. It is a serious research document, which should be approached with the methodology of science and the respect due the many lives of humans who have been assassinated by the secret state in order to cover up an extraterrestrial presence. Like conspiracy research, et research is demanding and a sacred task. IMHO Alfred A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. .
Your points as copied below are quite good ones and deserve to be answered. You are right when you say that it is not valid to assume that there IS NO evidence just because I (or you) have never seen or examined it. (Though it may be logical to INFER it, unless you would argue that all of the evidence that has ever existed to prove the assertion is either destroyed, undiscovered as of yet, or kept secret by nefarious governments. If the latter is the assertion then I would say that such cannot be logically supported either because it would be logical to assume that at least SOME, if even a very small amount of the total, of evidence in support of the theory would be found, and examined by people who would wish the information to be known). Thus I will qualify my statements to this effect; since no hard evidence of extraterrestrial life (except for the POSSIBILITY of bacteria like objects which MAY be present in martian meteors found on Earth) has been presented, and that if one is to postulate INTELLIGENT life from "elsewhere" and make a connection to the UFO phenomenon, I say that they then MUST present proof since such MAY violate laws of physics (faster than light travel, time travel, etc.), or simple logic (why come to THIS little piss-ant planet on the rim of an inconsequential galaxy?). THEREFORE, while I cannot PROVE that aliens have not come, or indeed, that they are not STILL coming to this island Earth, it is not incumbent upon me to prove a negative assertion, though I am perfectly willing to evaluate any evidence that is presented and stand ready to amend my view. It is the province of those who assert the theory that aliens HAVE BEEN here (and continue to come?) to PROVE or at least ATTEMPT to prove that their theory should be accepted. My point is that there is no evidence to support such claims. Thank you for the reasoned response. On Mon, 22 May 2000, Tony Dickinson wrote: Dear Ten, I would be happier if you could qualify your claim. What is your evidence for there being 'absolutely no "hard" evidence for ET visitatuion' ? That I, myself, have not knowingly been exposed to any, does not tell me therefore that such evidence does not exist. (At least for one example, the evidence with regards meteoric microossils would appear to be growing since The Murchison work by Pfloog/Hoyle back in the late 70s. Rather than exploring corn circles in the temporate zones, these more passive travellers are landing in stone spaceships amongst the Antarctic craters.) By aplying your same logic to the converse case, 'Interpretations and inherent beliefs' might just as likely 'cause' one not to see "aliens" for what they are be they present. Just a thought. Cheers, Tony. "Welcome to the desert of the real." Morpheus, in The Matrix "My God it's full of stars!" Dave Bowman, in 2001: A Space Odyssey ___ Why pay when you don't have to? Get AltaVista Free Internet Access now! http://jump.altavista.com/freeaccess4.go ___ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. . . WAS:Re: [CTRL] EXOPOLITICS - Book Review by N Molloy
Yet Skinner finally saw the light on the season finale.will Mulder ever come back or was he abducted forever? - Original Message - From: tenebroust [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 09:51 PM Subject: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. . . WAS:Re: [CTRL] EXOPOLITICS - Book Review by N Molloy There is absolutely no "hard" evidence of extraterrestrial visitation of the Earth. There is quite a lot of anecdote, and supposition however. I would also venture to say that there is NO evidence of ANY kind, "hard" or otherwise, but I won't try to press that point. Interpretation and inherent beliefs cause one to see "aliens" everywhere, just like Van Daaniken (sp?). On Sat, 20 May 2000, nessie wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: The Rare Earth authors overlook the hard evidence of extraterrestrial presence on Earth. Which is? A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance-not soap-boxing-please! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'-with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds-is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om "Welcome to the desert of the real." Morpheus, in The Matrix "My God it's full of stars!" Dave Bowman, in 2001: A Space Odyssey ___ Why pay when you don't have to? Get AltaVista Free Internet Access now! http://jump.altavista.com/freeaccess4.go ___ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance-not soap-boxing-please! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'-with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds-is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A
Re: [CTRL] Alien Presence? Evidence. . . WAS:Re: [CTRL] EXOPOLITICS - Book
The show hasn't aired yet here in California. It was very rude to post a spoiler without saying it was a spoiler. You should be ashamed of yourself. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
