Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Todd Zuercher]

They don't even always have the extra sticker.  Most of the ones we have that 
came in machines here don’t.

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: Stuart Stevenson 
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2023 8:15 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

Dark thought

remove the extra sticker and ship the drive anywhere

On Tue, Mar 21, 2023 at 11:38 AM Todd Zuercher 
wrote:

> As far as the firmware goes, it is not an option for the end users to
> change a Yaskawa drive's firmware.  (At least that is what I was told
> when I was shopping for a new drive.)  The drive's firmware can't be
> re-flashed by the end user and I don't even think they will give out
> the HF code or the equipment for their techs to reflash them at a
> dealer or repair facility.  It all seems rather fishy to me.  Most of
> the HF Yaskawa drives I have, are labeled like the regular low freq.
> drives, and list 400hz as their max freq. on the drive's label.  They
> just have a sticker stuck on above the old printed label  showing the
> part number for the HF firmware (the regular drive's part number with
> 1F-056 stuck on the end).  There is no other outward difference in
> appearance between the regular and the HF drives. (see attached
> picture if it goes through.) I really don't think there is any real
> difference in the actual hardware.  (It does seem odd that they
> wouldn't just reprint the whole label with the correct output freq.
> and any other applicable differences.)
>
> Todd Zuercher
> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> 630 Henry Street
> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Leonardo Marsaglia 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2023 9:07 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem
>
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
>
> Thanks a lot Todd!
>
> That works perfect. I didn't mess around with the firmware yet but
> since 590hz of max frequency is doing fine for me I didn't worry.
>
>
>
> El lun., 20 de marzo de 2023 10:30, Todd Zuercher
> 
> escribió:
>
> > You're minimum frequency and voltage don't seem right.  You won't be
> > able to command a speed below 6000RPM.  Which might not be all bad,
> > but that may also mean that the 0.1v from the analog command input
> > may = 6000rpm and 10v =  590hz.  This might through off your speed
> > command output from your controller.  The bigger problem might be
> > that your volt hz curve output will be 16.2v @ 200hz then linearly
> > to interpolated to 0 below that and linearly interpolated up from
> > that point to your mid-range setting of 32.2v @ 300hz, and then
> > linearly from there up to 380v @ 400hz.  With those settings I'm
> > going to guess
> that you will have almost no torque below about
> > 350rpm.  (Maybe not even enough to get the spindle running.)   162.0v @
> > 200hz and 322.0v @ 300hz would sound more normal for a 380v high
> > speed spindle to me.  Attached are some example Yaskawa VFD settings
> > from a CNC router manufacturer for some of their spindles used in the past.
> > (These are for an older 626 model drive, and some of those charts
> > are not high speed router spindles, but the parameter numbers are
> > usually similar for the newer model drives.)
> >
> > You might also be able to run the drive's auto tuning feature.  It
> > may or may not work.  Usually auto tuning in a VFD is geared towards
> > setting up 50-60hz motors.  I suspect it often doesn't work for high
> > speed spindles designed to operate above 300hz.  (All of the drive's
> > I've set up using the high speed firmware option have the auto
> > tuning feature disabled and it can't be used.)
> >
> > The GA500 drive series is available with the high speed firmware
> > option, Did you try to get one of those?
> >
> > Todd Zuercher
> > P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> > 630 Henry Street
> > Dalton, Ohio 44618
> > Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Leonardo Marsaglia 
> > Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2023 6:18 PM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > 
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem
> >
> > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
> >
> > By the way, the red ones are the ones I modified to suit what I
> > think the motor should be. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
> >
> > El dom, 19 mar 2023 a las 19:17, Leonardo Marsaglia (<

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Stuart Stevenson]

Dark thought

remove the extra sticker and ship the drive anywhere

On Tue, Mar 21, 2023 at 11:38 AM Todd Zuercher 
wrote:

> As far as the firmware goes, it is not an option for the end users to
> change a Yaskawa drive's firmware.  (At least that is what I was told when
> I was shopping for a new drive.)  The drive's firmware can't be re-flashed
> by the end user and I don't even think they will give out the HF code or
> the equipment for their techs to reflash them at a dealer or repair
> facility.  It all seems rather fishy to me.  Most of the HF Yaskawa drives
> I have, are labeled like the regular low freq. drives, and list 400hz as
> their max freq. on the drive's label.  They just have a sticker stuck on
> above the old printed label  showing the part number for the HF firmware
> (the regular drive's part number with 1F-056 stuck on the end).  There is
> no other outward difference in appearance between the regular and the HF
> drives. (see attached picture if it goes through.) I really don't think
> there is any real difference in the actual hardware.  (It does seem odd
> that they wouldn't just reprint the whole label with the correct output
> freq. and any other applicable differences.)
>
> Todd Zuercher
> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> 630 Henry Street
> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Leonardo Marsaglia 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2023 9:07 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem
>
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
>
> Thanks a lot Todd!
>
> That works perfect. I didn't mess around with the firmware yet but since
> 590hz of max frequency is doing fine for me I didn't worry.
>
>
>
> El lun., 20 de marzo de 2023 10:30, Todd Zuercher 
> escribió:
>
> > You're minimum frequency and voltage don't seem right.  You won't be
> > able to command a speed below 6000RPM.  Which might not be all bad,
> > but that may also mean that the 0.1v from the analog command input may
> > = 6000rpm and 10v =  590hz.  This might through off your speed command
> > output from your controller.  The bigger problem might be that your
> > volt hz curve output will be 16.2v @ 200hz then linearly to
> > interpolated to 0 below that and linearly interpolated up from that
> > point to your mid-range setting of 32.2v @ 300hz, and then linearly
> > from there up to 380v @ 400hz.  With those settings I'm going to guess
> that you will have almost no torque below about
> > 350rpm.  (Maybe not even enough to get the spindle running.)   162.0v @
> > 200hz and 322.0v @ 300hz would sound more normal for a 380v high speed
> > spindle to me.  Attached are some example Yaskawa VFD settings from a
> > CNC router manufacturer for some of their spindles used in the past.
> > (These are for an older 626 model drive, and some of those charts are
> > not high speed router spindles, but the parameter numbers are usually
> > similar for the newer model drives.)
> >
> > You might also be able to run the drive's auto tuning feature.  It may
> > or may not work.  Usually auto tuning in a VFD is geared towards
> > setting up 50-60hz motors.  I suspect it often doesn't work for high
> > speed spindles designed to operate above 300hz.  (All of the drive's
> > I've set up using the high speed firmware option have the auto tuning
> > feature disabled and it can't be used.)
> >
> > The GA500 drive series is available with the high speed firmware
> > option, Did you try to get one of those?
> >
> > Todd Zuercher
> > P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> > 630 Henry Street
> > Dalton, Ohio 44618
> > Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Leonardo Marsaglia 
> > Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2023 6:18 PM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > 
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem
> >
> > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
> >
> > By the way, the red ones are the ones I modified to suit what I think
> > the motor should be. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
> >
> > El dom, 19 mar 2023 a las 19:17, Leonardo Marsaglia (<
> > ldmarsag...@gmail.com>)
> > escribió:
> >
> > > Hi guys, and thanks for all the responses!
> > >
> > > Well, we tested another cable and the problem seems to be the same
> > > so I got a yaskawa GA500 vfd which goes up to 590 hz so it's fine
> > > for me since I rarely went above 500 hz with the other VFD.
> > >
> > > Is there any consideration about how to set up this VFD? Bec

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

Thanks a lot Todd!

That works perfect. I didn't mess around with the firmware yet but since
590hz of max frequency is doing fine for me I didn't worry.



El lun., 20 de marzo de 2023 10:30, Todd Zuercher 
escribió:

> You're minimum frequency and voltage don't seem right.  You won't be able
> to command a speed below 6000RPM.  Which might not be all bad, but that may
> also mean that the 0.1v from the analog command input may = 6000rpm and 10v
> =  590hz.  This might through off your speed command output from your
> controller.  The bigger problem might be that your volt hz curve output
> will be 16.2v @ 200hz then linearly to interpolated to 0 below that and
> linearly interpolated up from that point to your mid-range setting of 32.2v
> @ 300hz, and then linearly from there up to 380v @ 400hz.  With those
> settings I'm going to guess that you will have almost no torque below about
> 350rpm.  (Maybe not even enough to get the spindle running.)   162.0v @
> 200hz and 322.0v @ 300hz would sound more normal for a 380v high speed
> spindle to me.  Attached are some example Yaskawa VFD settings from a CNC
> router manufacturer for some of their spindles used in the past.  (These
> are for an older 626 model drive, and some of those charts are not high
> speed router spindles, but the parameter numbers are usually similar for
> the newer model drives.)
>
> You might also be able to run the drive's auto tuning feature.  It may or
> may not work.  Usually auto tuning in a VFD is geared towards setting up
> 50-60hz motors.  I suspect it often doesn't work for high speed spindles
> designed to operate above 300hz.  (All of the drive's I've set up using the
> high speed firmware option have the auto tuning feature disabled and it
> can't be used.)
>
> The GA500 drive series is available with the high speed firmware option,
> Did you try to get one of those?
>
> Todd Zuercher
> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> 630 Henry Street
> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Leonardo Marsaglia 
> Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2023 6:18 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem
>
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
>
> By the way, the red ones are the ones I modified to suit what I think the
> motor should be. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
>
> El dom, 19 mar 2023 a las 19:17, Leonardo Marsaglia (<
> ldmarsag...@gmail.com>)
> escribió:
>
> > Hi guys, and thanks for all the responses!
> >
> > Well, we tested another cable and the problem seems to be the same so
> > I got a yaskawa GA500 vfd which goes up to 590 hz so it's fine for me
> > since I rarely went above 500 hz with the other VFD.
> >
> > Is there any consideration about how to set up this VFD? Because it
> > seems more complex than the one I've been using, so your experience
> > will be more than useful to me.
> >
> > I attached a pic of the motor parameters. Those are the ones I'm most
> > worried about.
> >
> >
> >
> > El sáb, 18 mar 2023 a las 23:43, Ryan McIntosh ()
> > escribió:
> >
> >> You can get a cable tracer and ring it as well.  Lock out the VFD and
> >> you don't even have to disconnect anything if you can reach in and
> >> get clips on the UVW wires.  A break in the insulation will show up
> >> as a bright spot and a break in the conductors will be marked by a
> >> sharp drop off.
> >>
> >> If that is what happened, I'd recommend getting a high quality _drag_
> >> cable for future.  They'll be marked TRVVP
> >>
> >>
> >> *Ryan McIntosh*
> >> E4F Designs
> >> (204)770-3682
> >> r...@pebkac.ca
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, Mar 18, 2023 at 7:22 AM Roland Jollivet <
> >> roland.jolli...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > A break in one of the wires would cause it be on two phases,
> >> > vibrate and not run. Definitely intermittent as it flexes. A piece
> >> > of cable is so
> >> cheap
> >> > compared to another VFD. Just strap another cable onto the cable
> >> > chain
> >> and
> >> > run it for a few hours.
> >> > If it doesn't fail, it's not conclusive, but if it does, then you
> >> > know
> >> for
> >> > certain it's the VFD.
> >> >
> >> > Cables that flex are a consumable, unless it's very high quality
> >> > Lapp
> >> cable
> >> > or other.
> >> >
> >> > Roland
> >> >
> >> &g

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

Hi guys, and thanks for all the responses!

Well, we tested another cable and the problem seems to be the same so I got
a yaskawa GA500 vfd which goes up to 590 hz so it's fine for me since I
rarely went above 500 hz with the other VFD.

Is there any consideration about how to set up this VFD? Because it seems
more complex than the one I've been using, so your experience will be more
than useful to me.

I attached a pic of the motor parameters. Those are the ones I'm most
worried about.



El sáb, 18 mar 2023 a las 23:43, Ryan McIntosh () escribió:

> You can get a cable tracer and ring it as well.  Lock out the VFD and you
> don't even have to disconnect anything if you can reach in and get clips on
> the UVW wires.  A break in the insulation will show up as a bright spot and
> a break in the conductors will be marked by a sharp drop off.
>
> If that is what happened, I'd recommend getting a high quality _drag_ cable
> for future.  They'll be marked TRVVP
>
>
> *Ryan McIntosh*
> E4F Designs
> (204)770-3682
> r...@pebkac.ca
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 18, 2023 at 7:22 AM Roland Jollivet  >
> wrote:
>
> > A break in one of the wires would cause it be on two phases, vibrate and
> > not run. Definitely intermittent as it flexes. A piece of cable is so
> cheap
> > compared to another VFD. Just strap another cable onto the cable chain
> and
> > run it for a few hours.
> > If it doesn't fail, it's not conclusive, but if it does, then you know
> for
> > certain it's the VFD.
> >
> > Cables that flex are a consumable, unless it's very high quality Lapp
> cable
> > or other.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 17 Mar 2023 at 02:50, Leonardo Marsaglia 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Gene,
> > >
> > > Well, it's a little tricky because of the amount of cables I have
> running
> > > next to the ones of the spindle. But I checked the integrity of the
> cable
> > > and by visual inspection it all looks alright. It's a 3 wire cable with
> > the
> > > black insulating cover so it's pretty well protected.
> > >
> > > I really doubt the cable is the problem from what I've experienced and
> > from
> > > the condition of the cable in general.
> > >
> > > El jue., 16 de marzo de 2023 16:52, gene heskett  >
> > > escribió:
> > >
> > > > On 3/16/23 12:44, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote:
> > > > > I've checked that the terminals are connected well but I didn't
> check
> > > for
> > > > > the entire cable to be alright.
> > > > >
> > > > > I thought about it but I really didn't think such an intermittent
> > > failure
> > > > > could be caused by the cable alone. Do you recommend to install a
> new
> > > > cable
> > > > > just in case?
> > > > >
> > > > That depends on how old that cable is, and how much flexing it has
> > > > endured in its time.  And in some instances, what color the plastic
> > used
> > > > for insulation is. Magenta, aka hot red or hot pink, contains a
> > chemical
> > > > I can't name but it destroys the copper in the wire by converting it
> to
> > > > a fine, rust colored powder that may, or may not, properly conduct
> > > > electricity. That color is most often found in two-way radio
> microphone
> > > > cords as the connection to the tx button, or today, more commonly as
> > the
> > > > outer jacket of a sata drive cable in your computers.  In either
> case,
> > > > the failure rate by the time its 5 years old, is well up the far end
> of
> > > > the well known bathtub curve. I long ago changed all of mine out for
> > any
> > > > color but hot red/aka magenta.  End of drive errors.
> > > >
> > > > I have serious doubts that is the problem in this case, since the
> > > > currents involved are definitely capable of starting a noticeable
> fire.
> > > > But a hand, run along the length of the cable, looking for hot spots
> > > > when the failure is in evidence might not be a bad idea. Or better
> yet,
> > > > tracing the wire with an IR thermometer or infra-red camera.
> > > >
> > > > > El jue., 16 de marzo de 2023 13:37, Todd Zuercher <
> > > to...@pgrahamdunn.com
> > > > >
> > > > > escribió:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Have you checked your cabling between the motor and VFD?
> > > >
> > > > And please folks, take a break on the mail server, and trim your
> posts
> > > > down to the context of your reply.
> > > > Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> > > > --
> > > > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> > > >   soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > > > -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> > > > If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
> > respectable.
> > > >   - Louis D. Brandeis
> > > > Genes Web page 
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ___
> > > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > 

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

By the way, the red ones are the ones I modified to suit what I think the
motor should be. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

El dom, 19 mar 2023 a las 19:17, Leonardo Marsaglia ()
escribió:

> Hi guys, and thanks for all the responses!
>
> Well, we tested another cable and the problem seems to be the same so I
> got a yaskawa GA500 vfd which goes up to 590 hz so it's fine for me since I
> rarely went above 500 hz with the other VFD.
>
> Is there any consideration about how to set up this VFD? Because it seems
> more complex than the one I've been using, so your experience will be more
> than useful to me.
>
> I attached a pic of the motor parameters. Those are the ones I'm most
> worried about.
>
>
>
> El sáb, 18 mar 2023 a las 23:43, Ryan McIntosh ()
> escribió:
>
>> You can get a cable tracer and ring it as well.  Lock out the VFD and you
>> don't even have to disconnect anything if you can reach in and get clips
>> on
>> the UVW wires.  A break in the insulation will show up as a bright spot
>> and
>> a break in the conductors will be marked by a sharp drop off.
>>
>> If that is what happened, I'd recommend getting a high quality _drag_
>> cable
>> for future.  They'll be marked TRVVP
>>
>>
>> *Ryan McIntosh*
>> E4F Designs
>> (204)770-3682
>> r...@pebkac.ca
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 18, 2023 at 7:22 AM Roland Jollivet <
>> roland.jolli...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > A break in one of the wires would cause it be on two phases, vibrate and
>> > not run. Definitely intermittent as it flexes. A piece of cable is so
>> cheap
>> > compared to another VFD. Just strap another cable onto the cable chain
>> and
>> > run it for a few hours.
>> > If it doesn't fail, it's not conclusive, but if it does, then you know
>> for
>> > certain it's the VFD.
>> >
>> > Cables that flex are a consumable, unless it's very high quality Lapp
>> cable
>> > or other.
>> >
>> > Roland
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, 17 Mar 2023 at 02:50, Leonardo Marsaglia > >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hi Gene,
>> > >
>> > > Well, it's a little tricky because of the amount of cables I have
>> running
>> > > next to the ones of the spindle. But I checked the integrity of the
>> cable
>> > > and by visual inspection it all looks alright. It's a 3 wire cable
>> with
>> > the
>> > > black insulating cover so it's pretty well protected.
>> > >
>> > > I really doubt the cable is the problem from what I've experienced and
>> > from
>> > > the condition of the cable in general.
>> > >
>> > > El jue., 16 de marzo de 2023 16:52, gene heskett <
>> ghesk...@shentel.net>
>> > > escribió:
>> > >
>> > > > On 3/16/23 12:44, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote:
>> > > > > I've checked that the terminals are connected well but I didn't
>> check
>> > > for
>> > > > > the entire cable to be alright.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I thought about it but I really didn't think such an intermittent
>> > > failure
>> > > > > could be caused by the cable alone. Do you recommend to install a
>> new
>> > > > cable
>> > > > > just in case?
>> > > > >
>> > > > That depends on how old that cable is, and how much flexing it has
>> > > > endured in its time.  And in some instances, what color the plastic
>> > used
>> > > > for insulation is. Magenta, aka hot red or hot pink, contains a
>> > chemical
>> > > > I can't name but it destroys the copper in the wire by converting
>> it to
>> > > > a fine, rust colored powder that may, or may not, properly conduct
>> > > > electricity. That color is most often found in two-way radio
>> microphone
>> > > > cords as the connection to the tx button, or today, more commonly as
>> > the
>> > > > outer jacket of a sata drive cable in your computers.  In either
>> case,
>> > > > the failure rate by the time its 5 years old, is well up the far
>> end of
>> > > > the well known bathtub curve. I long ago changed all of mine out for
>> > any
>> > > > color but hot red/aka magenta.  End of drive errors.
>> > > >
>> > > > I have serious doubts that is the problem in this case, since the
>> > > > currents involved are definitely capable of starting a noticeable
>> fire.
>> > > > But a hand, run along the length of the cable, looking for hot spots
>> > > > when the failure is in evidence might not be a bad idea. Or better
>> yet,
>> > > > tracing the wire with an IR thermometer or infra-red camera.
>> > > >
>> > > > > El jue., 16 de marzo de 2023 13:37, Todd Zuercher <
>> > > to...@pgrahamdunn.com
>> > > > >
>> > > > > escribió:
>> > > > >
>> > > > >> Have you checked your cabling between the motor and VFD?
>> > > >
>> > > > And please folks, take a break on the mail server, and trim your
>> posts
>> > > > down to the context of your reply.
>> > > > Cheers, Gene Heskett.
>> > > > --
>> > > > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>> > > >   soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
>> > > > -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
>> > > > If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
>> > respectable.
>> > > >   - Louis D. Brandeis
>> > > > Genes 

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Ryan McIntosh]

You can get a cable tracer and ring it as well.  Lock out the VFD and you
don't even have to disconnect anything if you can reach in and get clips on
the UVW wires.  A break in the insulation will show up as a bright spot and
a break in the conductors will be marked by a sharp drop off.

If that is what happened, I'd recommend getting a high quality _drag_ cable
for future.  They'll be marked TRVVP


*Ryan McIntosh*
E4F Designs
(204)770-3682
r...@pebkac.ca


On Sat, Mar 18, 2023 at 7:22 AM Roland Jollivet 
wrote:

> A break in one of the wires would cause it be on two phases, vibrate and
> not run. Definitely intermittent as it flexes. A piece of cable is so cheap
> compared to another VFD. Just strap another cable onto the cable chain and
> run it for a few hours.
> If it doesn't fail, it's not conclusive, but if it does, then you know for
> certain it's the VFD.
>
> Cables that flex are a consumable, unless it's very high quality Lapp cable
> or other.
>
> Roland
>
>
> On Fri, 17 Mar 2023 at 02:50, Leonardo Marsaglia 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Gene,
> >
> > Well, it's a little tricky because of the amount of cables I have running
> > next to the ones of the spindle. But I checked the integrity of the cable
> > and by visual inspection it all looks alright. It's a 3 wire cable with
> the
> > black insulating cover so it's pretty well protected.
> >
> > I really doubt the cable is the problem from what I've experienced and
> from
> > the condition of the cable in general.
> >
> > El jue., 16 de marzo de 2023 16:52, gene heskett 
> > escribió:
> >
> > > On 3/16/23 12:44, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote:
> > > > I've checked that the terminals are connected well but I didn't check
> > for
> > > > the entire cable to be alright.
> > > >
> > > > I thought about it but I really didn't think such an intermittent
> > failure
> > > > could be caused by the cable alone. Do you recommend to install a new
> > > cable
> > > > just in case?
> > > >
> > > That depends on how old that cable is, and how much flexing it has
> > > endured in its time.  And in some instances, what color the plastic
> used
> > > for insulation is. Magenta, aka hot red or hot pink, contains a
> chemical
> > > I can't name but it destroys the copper in the wire by converting it to
> > > a fine, rust colored powder that may, or may not, properly conduct
> > > electricity. That color is most often found in two-way radio microphone
> > > cords as the connection to the tx button, or today, more commonly as
> the
> > > outer jacket of a sata drive cable in your computers.  In either case,
> > > the failure rate by the time its 5 years old, is well up the far end of
> > > the well known bathtub curve. I long ago changed all of mine out for
> any
> > > color but hot red/aka magenta.  End of drive errors.
> > >
> > > I have serious doubts that is the problem in this case, since the
> > > currents involved are definitely capable of starting a noticeable fire.
> > > But a hand, run along the length of the cable, looking for hot spots
> > > when the failure is in evidence might not be a bad idea. Or better yet,
> > > tracing the wire with an IR thermometer or infra-red camera.
> > >
> > > > El jue., 16 de marzo de 2023 13:37, Todd Zuercher <
> > to...@pgrahamdunn.com
> > > >
> > > > escribió:
> > > >
> > > >> Have you checked your cabling between the motor and VFD?
> > >
> > > And please folks, take a break on the mail server, and trim your posts
> > > down to the context of your reply.
> > > Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> > > --
> > > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> > >   soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > > -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> > > If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
> respectable.
> > >   - Louis D. Brandeis
> > > Genes Web page 
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
>
> ___
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Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[gene heskett]

On 3/16/23 20:47, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote:

Hi Gene,

Well, it's a little tricky because of the amount of cables I have running
next to the ones of the spindle. But I checked the integrity of the cable
and by visual inspection it all looks alright. It's a 3 wire cable with the
black insulating cover so it's pretty well protected.

I really doubt the cable is the problem from what I've experienced and from
the condition of the cable in general.

I'd measure all 3 conductors just to satisfy my curiosity. Anything 
under an ohm s/b be good yet, on a 4 wire measurement. 2 wire from a std 
dvm can lie like a rug. Bad leads, Bad fuse that looks great. BTDT 
Leonardo. 4 wire is where the current running thru the cable to measure 
it,is coming from a different src, so the meter does not see the meters 
leads, only the voltage drop across the wire being tested.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

Hi Gene,

Well, it's a little tricky because of the amount of cables I have running
next to the ones of the spindle. But I checked the integrity of the cable
and by visual inspection it all looks alright. It's a 3 wire cable with the
black insulating cover so it's pretty well protected.

I really doubt the cable is the problem from what I've experienced and from
the condition of the cable in general.

El jue., 16 de marzo de 2023 16:52, gene heskett 
escribió:

> On 3/16/23 12:44, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote:
> > I've checked that the terminals are connected well but I didn't check for
> > the entire cable to be alright.
> >
> > I thought about it but I really didn't think such an intermittent failure
> > could be caused by the cable alone. Do you recommend to install a new
> cable
> > just in case?
> >
> That depends on how old that cable is, and how much flexing it has
> endured in its time.  And in some instances, what color the plastic used
> for insulation is. Magenta, aka hot red or hot pink, contains a chemical
> I can't name but it destroys the copper in the wire by converting it to
> a fine, rust colored powder that may, or may not, properly conduct
> electricity. That color is most often found in two-way radio microphone
> cords as the connection to the tx button, or today, more commonly as the
> outer jacket of a sata drive cable in your computers.  In either case,
> the failure rate by the time its 5 years old, is well up the far end of
> the well known bathtub curve. I long ago changed all of mine out for any
> color but hot red/aka magenta.  End of drive errors.
>
> I have serious doubts that is the problem in this case, since the
> currents involved are definitely capable of starting a noticeable fire.
> But a hand, run along the length of the cable, looking for hot spots
> when the failure is in evidence might not be a bad idea. Or better yet,
> tracing the wire with an IR thermometer or infra-red camera.
>
> > El jue., 16 de marzo de 2023 13:37, Todd Zuercher  >
> > escribió:
> >
> >> Have you checked your cabling between the motor and VFD?
>
> And please folks, take a break on the mail server, and trim your posts
> down to the context of your reply.
> Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>   soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>   - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page 
>
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>

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Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Todd Zuercher]

I've had to replace all of the power cables for the servo motors and spindle on 
a large CNC wood router that was only 10 years old.  This was a machine with 
Fanuc control and servos.  (I think it had a Yaskawa VFD).  The encoder cables 
were higher quality and didn't give problems.  It was giving all sorts of weird 
intermittent alarms mostly for the servos.  When I opened up the cable chains, 
I couldn't hardly believe that it hadn't caught fire.  There were broken and 
exposed and charred wires all over the place.  The spindle cable had broken 
wires in at least a half dozen places.  It was a wonder it ran at all.  It was 
a major mess.  (Sorry Gene I don't think any of those cables had red 
insulation.)  I think the machine manufacturer cheeped out and didn't use cable 
chain rated cable or just got a bad batch.  We had an identical machine a year 
older and never had those problems.

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street 
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: gene heskett  
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 3:50 PM
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

On 3/16/23 12:44, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote:
> I've checked that the terminals are connected well but I didn't check 
> for the entire cable to be alright.
>
> I thought about it but I really didn't think such an intermittent 
> failure could be caused by the cable alone. Do you recommend to 
> install a new cable just in case?
>
That depends on how old that cable is, and how much flexing it has endured in 
its time.  And in some instances, what color the plastic used for insulation 
is. Magenta, aka hot red or hot pink, contains a chemical I can't name but it 
destroys the copper in the wire by converting it to a fine, rust colored powder 
that may, or may not, properly conduct electricity. That color is most often 
found in two-way radio microphone cords as the connection to the tx button, or 
today, more commonly as the outer jacket of a sata drive cable in your 
computers.  In either case, the failure rate by the time its 5 years old, is 
well up the far end of the well known bathtub curve. I long ago changed all of 
mine out for any color but hot red/aka magenta.  End of drive errors.

I have serious doubts that is the problem in this case, since the currents 
involved are definitely capable of starting a noticeable fire.
But a hand, run along the length of the cable, looking for hot spots when the 
failure is in evidence might not be a bad idea. Or better yet, tracing the wire 
with an IR thermometer or infra-red camera.

> El jue., 16 de marzo de 2023 13:37, Todd Zuercher 
> 
> escribió:
>
>> Have you checked your cabling between the motor and VFD?

And please folks, take a break on the mail server, and trim your posts down to 
the context of your reply.
Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--


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Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[gene heskett]

On 3/16/23 12:44, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote:

I've checked that the terminals are connected well but I didn't check for
the entire cable to be alright.

I thought about it but I really didn't think such an intermittent failure
could be caused by the cable alone. Do you recommend to install a new cable
just in case?

That depends on how old that cable is, and how much flexing it has 
endured in its time.  And in some instances, what color the plastic used 
for insulation is. Magenta, aka hot red or hot pink, contains a chemical 
I can't name but it destroys the copper in the wire by converting it to 
a fine, rust colored powder that may, or may not, properly conduct 
electricity. That color is most often found in two-way radio microphone 
cords as the connection to the tx button, or today, more commonly as the 
outer jacket of a sata drive cable in your computers.  In either case, 
the failure rate by the time its 5 years old, is well up the far end of 
the well known bathtub curve. I long ago changed all of mine out for any 
color but hot red/aka magenta.  End of drive errors.


I have serious doubts that is the problem in this case, since the 
currents involved are definitely capable of starting a noticeable fire. 
But a hand, run along the length of the cable, looking for hot spots 
when the failure is in evidence might not be a bad idea. Or better yet, 
tracing the wire with an IR thermometer or infra-red camera.



El jue., 16 de marzo de 2023 13:37, Todd Zuercher 
escribió:


Have you checked your cabling between the motor and VFD?


And please folks, take a break on the mail server, and trim your posts 
down to the context of your reply.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

Well, there are several faults in relation with winding or cabling problems
but none of those have appeared so far.

These are some of them. But as you know, I only had the overcurrent fault
and it was not even when accelerating (Because the drive has three separate
overcurrent alarms for acceleration, deceleration and during operation).

Fu. 041
The motor fails to be
connected when the
motor parameters
are identified.

The motor fails to be connected
when the motor parameters are
identified.

Connect the motor.

Fu.042
U phase output is
disconnected or the
parameters are
seriously unbalanced

1. The lead from frequency
inverter to motor is disconnected.
2. The driving or control panel of
the frequency inverter is faulty.
3. The three-phase winding of the
motor is faulty.

1. Eliminate peripheral faults
2. Seek for manufacturer’s support
3. Eliminate motor faults.

Fu.043
V phase output is
disconnected or the
parameters are
seriously unbalanced

1. The lead from frequency
inverter to motor is disconnected.
2. The driving or control panel of
the frequency inverter is faulty
3. The three-phase winding of the
motor is faulty

1. Eliminate peripheral faults.
2. Seek for manufacturer’s support
3. Eliminate the fault of motor.

Fu.044
W phase output is
disconnected or the
parameters are
seriously unbalanced

1. The lead from frequency
inverter to motor is disconnected.
2. The driving or control panel of
the frequency inverter is faulty.
3. The three-phase winding of the
motor is faulty.

1. Eliminate peripheral faults.
2. Seek for manufacturer’s support
3. Eliminate the fault of motor.

Fu.051
U phase current is
detected faulty
(sensor or circuit)

1.The current sensor or circuit is
damaged.
2. The auxiliary power supply is
faulty.
3. The control and driving panel
are improperly connected.

Seek for manufacturer’s support.

Fu.052
V phase current is
detected faulty
(sensor or circuit)

1.The current sensor or circuit is
damaged.
2. The auxiliary power supply is
faulty.
3. The control and driving panel
are Improperly connected.

Seek for manufacturer’s support.

El jue, 16 mar 2023 a las 14:09, Todd Zuercher ()
escribió:

> A spindle motor is an induction motor, not a permanent magnet synchronous
> motor like a BLDC one.  It should not be able to slip and stall like a BLDC
> can if synchronization is lost.  If there is too much slippage or the rotor
> stalls it should over current the drive.
>
> I suggested checking the cabling, because it sounds like an intermittent
> problem on one of the phases.  But what has me doubting this, is that most
> VFDs I've worked with will detect such a fault and shut down with an error
> code reflecting that.  (I know nothing about your model drive.)
>
> Todd Zuercher
> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> 630 Henry Street
> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Leonardo Marsaglia 
> Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 12:43 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem
>
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
>
> I've checked that the terminals are connected well but I didn't check for
> the entire cable to be alright.
>
> I thought about it but I really didn't think such an intermittent failure
> could be caused by the cable alone. Do you recommend to install a new cable
> just in case?
>
> El jue., 16 de marzo de 2023 13:37, Todd Zuercher 
> escribió:
>
> > Have you checked your cabling between the motor and VFD?
> >
> > Todd Zuercher
> > P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> > 630 Henry Street
> > Dalton, Ohio 44618
> > Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Leonardo Marsaglia 
> > Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 11:03 AM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem
> >
> > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
> >
> > By the way. Could a not so good earth grounding of the machine cause this
> > failure? Although the machine is grounded as always and the VFD was
> working
> > perfectly for more than 6 months.
> >
> > El jue., 16 de marzo de 2023 11:47, Leonardo Marsaglia <
> > ldmarsag...@gmail.com> escribió:
> >
> > > Hi again guys,
> > >
> > > Some news about the problem. I just cut 1 board with the spindle
> working
> > > perfectly.
> > >
> > > Now with the second board we have problems again. Now we don't have
> > > overcurrent but full rotor slipping.
> > >
> > > The VFD reaches the frequency and the whining sounds good but
> absolutely
> > > no rotor movement. When I touch by hand I can feel it a little hard to
> > turn
> > > 

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Todd Zuercher]

A spindle motor is an induction motor, not a permanent magnet synchronous motor 
like a BLDC one.  It should not be able to slip and stall like a BLDC can if 
synchronization is lost.  If there is too much slippage or the rotor stalls it 
should over current the drive.  

I suggested checking the cabling, because it sounds like an intermittent 
problem on one of the phases.  But what has me doubting this, is that most VFDs 
I've worked with will detect such a fault and shut down with an error code 
reflecting that.  (I know nothing about your model drive.)

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street 
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: Leonardo Marsaglia  
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 12:43 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

I've checked that the terminals are connected well but I didn't check for
the entire cable to be alright.

I thought about it but I really didn't think such an intermittent failure
could be caused by the cable alone. Do you recommend to install a new cable
just in case?

El jue., 16 de marzo de 2023 13:37, Todd Zuercher 
escribió:

> Have you checked your cabling between the motor and VFD?
>
> Todd Zuercher
> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> 630 Henry Street
> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Leonardo Marsaglia 
> Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 11:03 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem
>
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
>
> By the way. Could a not so good earth grounding of the machine cause this
> failure? Although the machine is grounded as always and the VFD was working
> perfectly for more than 6 months.
>
> El jue., 16 de marzo de 2023 11:47, Leonardo Marsaglia <
> ldmarsag...@gmail.com> escribió:
>
> > Hi again guys,
> >
> > Some news about the problem. I just cut 1 board with the spindle working
> > perfectly.
> >
> > Now with the second board we have problems again. Now we don't have
> > overcurrent but full rotor slipping.
> >
> > The VFD reaches the frequency and the whining sounds good but absolutely
> > no rotor movement. When I touch by hand I can feel it a little hard to
> turn
> > and also I can feel the vibration. When I command the VFD to stop the
> rotor
> > feels like always smooth and with no resistance.
> >
> > I think I'm going to purchase a new VFD because I don't know how much I
> > can play with this one without a solution. I mean an hour ago it was
> > working perfectly. And between starts and stops this happens and nothing
> > seems to fix it. The spindle is even colder now than when it was working
> > ok.
> >
> > Just wanted to tell you so you can let me know your thoughts, but I guess
> > this VFD is the problem.
> >
> > El mar., 14 de marzo de 2023 21:07, Leonardo Marsaglia <
> > ldmarsag...@gmail.com> escribió:
> >
> >> I can imagine marginal settings push a system over the edge into failure
> >>> at extreme temperatures.  Just for example, I was setting up a Yaskawa
> F7
> >>> hi-frequency drive for a 13kw 24k rpm spindle a couple weeks ago.  The
> >>> drive was starting and running the spindle seemingly fine while I was
> >>> testing it.  But when we started production we ran into an issue.
> Normally
> >>> the drive would only take a few seconds to spin the spindle up to
> cutting
> >>> speed.  But once it was warmed up it would start to over current on
> >>> accelerating and pause the acceleration to try to prevent the overload.
> >>> The result was the spindle wasn't up to speed when the control started
> the
> >>> cut and snapped off the bit.  The settings were close enough to
> prevent the
> >>> drive overloading and shutting down but not close enough to get the
> spindle
> >>> running right.  The problem ended up being that the minimum frequency
> and
> >>> voltage were not set to the defaults (used drive) and the min-volt
> setting
> >>> was too high causing the drive to overload when starting up the
> spindle.
> >>> When I was testing it, I was only seeing a brief blip of twenty some
> odd
> >>> amps of current when the spindle was accelerating from stopped.  I
> didn't
> >>> think that seemed out of place.  But once the spindle warmed up it was
> >>> enough to freak out the drive and cause it to slow the spindle
> acceleration
> >>> way down.  I can't re

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Matthew Herd]

It seems a lot like an intermittent failure on a phase, either in the VFD
or due to a bad connection from motor to VFD.  Similar to when a step motor
loses a step, it stalls.

On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 12:47 PM Leonardo Marsaglia 
wrote:

> I've checked that the terminals are connected well but I didn't check for
> the entire cable to be alright.
>
> I thought about it but I really didn't think such an intermittent failure
> could be caused by the cable alone. Do you recommend to install a new cable
> just in case?
>
> El jue., 16 de marzo de 2023 13:37, Todd Zuercher 
> escribió:
>
> > Have you checked your cabling between the motor and VFD?
> >
> > Todd Zuercher
> > P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> > 630 Henry Street
> > Dalton, Ohio 44618
> > Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Leonardo Marsaglia 
> > Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 11:03 AM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem
> >
> > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
> >
> > By the way. Could a not so good earth grounding of the machine cause this
> > failure? Although the machine is grounded as always and the VFD was
> working
> > perfectly for more than 6 months.
> >
> > El jue., 16 de marzo de 2023 11:47, Leonardo Marsaglia <
> > ldmarsag...@gmail.com> escribió:
> >
> > > Hi again guys,
> > >
> > > Some news about the problem. I just cut 1 board with the spindle
> working
> > > perfectly.
> > >
> > > Now with the second board we have problems again. Now we don't have
> > > overcurrent but full rotor slipping.
> > >
> > > The VFD reaches the frequency and the whining sounds good but
> absolutely
> > > no rotor movement. When I touch by hand I can feel it a little hard to
> > turn
> > > and also I can feel the vibration. When I command the VFD to stop the
> > rotor
> > > feels like always smooth and with no resistance.
> > >
> > > I think I'm going to purchase a new VFD because I don't know how much I
> > > can play with this one without a solution. I mean an hour ago it was
> > > working perfectly. And between starts and stops this happens and
> nothing
> > > seems to fix it. The spindle is even colder now than when it was
> working
> > > ok.
> > >
> > > Just wanted to tell you so you can let me know your thoughts, but I
> guess
> > > this VFD is the problem.
> > >
> > > El mar., 14 de marzo de 2023 21:07, Leonardo Marsaglia <
> > > ldmarsag...@gmail.com> escribió:
> > >
> > >> I can imagine marginal settings push a system over the edge into
> failure
> > >>> at extreme temperatures.  Just for example, I was setting up a
> Yaskawa
> > F7
> > >>> hi-frequency drive for a 13kw 24k rpm spindle a couple weeks ago.
> The
> > >>> drive was starting and running the spindle seemingly fine while I was
> > >>> testing it.  But when we started production we ran into an issue.
> > Normally
> > >>> the drive would only take a few seconds to spin the spindle up to
> > cutting
> > >>> speed.  But once it was warmed up it would start to over current on
> > >>> accelerating and pause the acceleration to try to prevent the
> overload.
> > >>> The result was the spindle wasn't up to speed when the control
> started
> > the
> > >>> cut and snapped off the bit.  The settings were close enough to
> > prevent the
> > >>> drive overloading and shutting down but not close enough to get the
> > spindle
> > >>> running right.  The problem ended up being that the minimum frequency
> > and
> > >>> voltage were not set to the defaults (used drive) and the min-volt
> > setting
> > >>> was too high causing the drive to overload when starting up the
> > spindle.
> > >>> When I was testing it, I was only seeing a brief blip of twenty some
> > odd
> > >>> amps of current when the spindle was accelerating from stopped.  I
> > didn't
> > >>> think that seemed out of place.  But once the spindle warmed up it
> was
> > >>> enough to freak out the drive and cause it to slow the spindle
> > acceleration
> > >>> way down.  I can't remember what I changed the minimum voltage from,
> > but I
> > >>> lowered it significantly.  After doing that the current output t

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

I've checked that the terminals are connected well but I didn't check for
the entire cable to be alright.

I thought about it but I really didn't think such an intermittent failure
could be caused by the cable alone. Do you recommend to install a new cable
just in case?

El jue., 16 de marzo de 2023 13:37, Todd Zuercher 
escribió:

> Have you checked your cabling between the motor and VFD?
>
> Todd Zuercher
> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> 630 Henry Street
> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Leonardo Marsaglia 
> Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 11:03 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem
>
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
>
> By the way. Could a not so good earth grounding of the machine cause this
> failure? Although the machine is grounded as always and the VFD was working
> perfectly for more than 6 months.
>
> El jue., 16 de marzo de 2023 11:47, Leonardo Marsaglia <
> ldmarsag...@gmail.com> escribió:
>
> > Hi again guys,
> >
> > Some news about the problem. I just cut 1 board with the spindle working
> > perfectly.
> >
> > Now with the second board we have problems again. Now we don't have
> > overcurrent but full rotor slipping.
> >
> > The VFD reaches the frequency and the whining sounds good but absolutely
> > no rotor movement. When I touch by hand I can feel it a little hard to
> turn
> > and also I can feel the vibration. When I command the VFD to stop the
> rotor
> > feels like always smooth and with no resistance.
> >
> > I think I'm going to purchase a new VFD because I don't know how much I
> > can play with this one without a solution. I mean an hour ago it was
> > working perfectly. And between starts and stops this happens and nothing
> > seems to fix it. The spindle is even colder now than when it was working
> > ok.
> >
> > Just wanted to tell you so you can let me know your thoughts, but I guess
> > this VFD is the problem.
> >
> > El mar., 14 de marzo de 2023 21:07, Leonardo Marsaglia <
> > ldmarsag...@gmail.com> escribió:
> >
> >> I can imagine marginal settings push a system over the edge into failure
> >>> at extreme temperatures.  Just for example, I was setting up a Yaskawa
> F7
> >>> hi-frequency drive for a 13kw 24k rpm spindle a couple weeks ago.  The
> >>> drive was starting and running the spindle seemingly fine while I was
> >>> testing it.  But when we started production we ran into an issue.
> Normally
> >>> the drive would only take a few seconds to spin the spindle up to
> cutting
> >>> speed.  But once it was warmed up it would start to over current on
> >>> accelerating and pause the acceleration to try to prevent the overload.
> >>> The result was the spindle wasn't up to speed when the control started
> the
> >>> cut and snapped off the bit.  The settings were close enough to
> prevent the
> >>> drive overloading and shutting down but not close enough to get the
> spindle
> >>> running right.  The problem ended up being that the minimum frequency
> and
> >>> voltage were not set to the defaults (used drive) and the min-volt
> setting
> >>> was too high causing the drive to overload when starting up the
> spindle.
> >>> When I was testing it, I was only seeing a brief blip of twenty some
> odd
> >>> amps of current when the spindle was accelerating from stopped.  I
> didn't
> >>> think that seemed out of place.  But once the spindle warmed up it was
> >>> enough to freak out the drive and cause it to slow the spindle
> acceleration
> >>> way down.  I can't remember what I changed the minimum voltage from,
> but I
> >>> lowered it significantly.  After doing that the current output to the
> >>> spindle when accelerating from stopped stays in the mid-teens, and it
> >>> always accelerates quickly at the programmed rate.
> >>>
> >>> Is your drive a Yaskawa?  What exactly are the drive fault messages?
> >>>
> >>
> >> This is a Simphoenix E580 (or E280 depending on the market) chinese VFD.
> >>
> >> The fault I'm getting is overcurrent during operation. There's an
> >> overcurrent during acceleration but that's not the one I'm getting
> although
> >> the VFD is failing to get to the working speed. There's a parameter I
> can
> >> try tomorrow that's called revolution tracking start. The manual says
> the

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Todd Zuercher]

Have you checked your cabling between the motor and VFD? 

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street 
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: Leonardo Marsaglia  
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 11:03 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

By the way. Could a not so good earth grounding of the machine cause this
failure? Although the machine is grounded as always and the VFD was working
perfectly for more than 6 months.

El jue., 16 de marzo de 2023 11:47, Leonardo Marsaglia <
ldmarsag...@gmail.com> escribió:

> Hi again guys,
>
> Some news about the problem. I just cut 1 board with the spindle working
> perfectly.
>
> Now with the second board we have problems again. Now we don't have
> overcurrent but full rotor slipping.
>
> The VFD reaches the frequency and the whining sounds good but absolutely
> no rotor movement. When I touch by hand I can feel it a little hard to turn
> and also I can feel the vibration. When I command the VFD to stop the rotor
> feels like always smooth and with no resistance.
>
> I think I'm going to purchase a new VFD because I don't know how much I
> can play with this one without a solution. I mean an hour ago it was
> working perfectly. And between starts and stops this happens and nothing
> seems to fix it. The spindle is even colder now than when it was working
> ok.
>
> Just wanted to tell you so you can let me know your thoughts, but I guess
> this VFD is the problem.
>
> El mar., 14 de marzo de 2023 21:07, Leonardo Marsaglia <
> ldmarsag...@gmail.com> escribió:
>
>> I can imagine marginal settings push a system over the edge into failure
>>> at extreme temperatures.  Just for example, I was setting up a Yaskawa F7
>>> hi-frequency drive for a 13kw 24k rpm spindle a couple weeks ago.  The
>>> drive was starting and running the spindle seemingly fine while I was
>>> testing it.  But when we started production we ran into an issue.  Normally
>>> the drive would only take a few seconds to spin the spindle up to cutting
>>> speed.  But once it was warmed up it would start to over current on
>>> accelerating and pause the acceleration to try to prevent the overload.
>>> The result was the spindle wasn't up to speed when the control started the
>>> cut and snapped off the bit.  The settings were close enough to prevent the
>>> drive overloading and shutting down but not close enough to get the spindle
>>> running right.  The problem ended up being that the minimum frequency and
>>> voltage were not set to the defaults (used drive) and the min-volt setting
>>> was too high causing the drive to overload when starting up the spindle.
>>> When I was testing it, I was only seeing a brief blip of twenty some odd
>>> amps of current when the spindle was accelerating from stopped.  I didn't
>>> think that seemed out of place.  But once the spindle warmed up it was
>>> enough to freak out the drive and cause it to slow the spindle acceleration
>>> way down.  I can't remember what I changed the minimum voltage from, but I
>>> lowered it significantly.  After doing that the current output to the
>>> spindle when accelerating from stopped stays in the mid-teens, and it
>>> always accelerates quickly at the programmed rate.
>>>
>>> Is your drive a Yaskawa?  What exactly are the drive fault messages?
>>>
>>
>> This is a Simphoenix E580 (or E280 depending on the market) chinese VFD.
>>
>> The fault I'm getting is overcurrent during operation. There's an
>> overcurrent during acceleration but that's not the one I'm getting although
>> the VFD is failing to get to the working speed. There's a parameter I can
>> try tomorrow that's called revolution tracking start. The manual says the
>> following:
>>
>> 1: Revolution tracking start
>> It is applicable to the occasion of fault resetting and restart and
>> restart after power-off. The inverter
>> will automatically judge the running speed and direction of the motor,
>> and starts the rotating motor in
>> a smooth and impact-free way according to the detection and judge
>> results; see below figure for the
>> revolution tracking start sketch.
>>
>> I'll keep reading to see If I can find a way to modify the voltage during
>> acceleration to avoid overcurrent also.
>>
>>
>> El mar, 14 mar 2023 a las 18:06, Todd Zuercher ()
>> escribió:
>>
>>> I can imagine marginal settings push a system over the edge into failure
>>> at

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

e spindle up to cutting
>>> speed.  But once it was warmed up it would start to over current on
>>> accelerating and pause the acceleration to try to prevent the overload.
>>> The result was the spindle wasn't up to speed when the control started the
>>> cut and snapped off the bit.  The settings were close enough to prevent the
>>> drive overloading and shutting down but not close enough to get the spindle
>>> running right.  The problem ended up being that the minimum frequency and
>>> voltage were not set to the defaults (used drive) and the min-volt setting
>>> was too high causing the drive to overload when starting up the spindle.
>>> When I was testing it, I was only seeing a brief blip of twenty some odd
>>> amps of current when the spindle was accelerating from stopped.  I didn't
>>> think that seemed out of place.  But once the spindle warmed up it was
>>> enough to freak out the drive and cause it to slow the spindle acceleration
>>> way down.  I can't remember what I changed the minimum voltage from, but I
>>> lowered it significantly.  After doing that the current output to the
>>> spindle when accelerating from stopped stays in the mid-teens, and it
>>> always accelerates quickly at the programmed rate.
>>>
>>> Is your drive a Yaskawa?  What exactly are the drive fault messages?
>>>
>>> Todd Zuercher
>>> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
>>> 630 Henry Street
>>> Dalton, Ohio 44618
>>> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Leonardo Marsaglia 
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2023 3:30 PM
>>> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
>>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem
>>>
>>> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
>>>
>>> About the configuration. I don't know how to post that without making a
>>> mess but I just used the parameters that the spindle manufacturer sent me.
>>> With that config I was working ok for more than 6 months. So unless
>>> something was right there at the limit too far from the correct one. The
>>> main change here is ambient temperature. It's been almost 3 weeks with
>>> temperatures of about 38°C.
>>>
>>> El mar, 14 mar 2023 a las 16:04, Todd Zuercher ()
>>> escribió:
>>>
>>> > Most of the big VFD manufactures do offer high frequency versions of
>>> > their VFDs but you might have to call and ask for it.  For most it is
>>> > simply loading in a special firmware version at the factory that
>>> > allows the drive to be set to the higher frequency.  There is usually
>>> > a compromise though and a number of other normal features must be
>>> > disabled because they don't work at the high frequency.  For example
>>> > with the current Yaskawa V1000 drive, the high frequency version goes
>>> > up to 1000hz (1500hz under certain circumstances), but it loses all
>>> > auto tuning features, flux vector control and a list of other things
>>> > are disabled. (Comes with a 10page or so supplement to the manual
>>> > covering all of the changes from the stock
>>> > firmware.)  But they can be difficult to order.  We tried to order a
>>> > new Yaskawa drive more than a year ago, finally last month, after the
>>> > 3rd time of the shipping date getting pushed back, we got tired
>>> > waiting, canceled the order and bought a used drive off Ebay.  Also
>>> > they won't sell them to just anyone, you can't live in the wrong
>>> > country and have to offer some proof you have a legitimate use for it.
>>> >
>>> > PS, I'm still more inclined to thinking either there is a problem with
>>> > the VFD's configuration, or the spindle bearings are going bad.  I've
>>> > never had a drive cause problems like you're describing (not that I
>>> > have that much experience with drives going bad.)  Usually either they
>>> > work or they don't.  I've had rectifiers go bad and was able to
>>> > replace them and put the drive back in service.  Others that just died
>>> > I was not able to pinpoint the failure and just had to replace them.
>>> > This last drive I had to replace, I could see being a capacitor
>>> > problem.  It would fail to power up for a couple of hours after first
>>> turning on the machine in the morning.
>>> > It would run fine all week as long as it was left on, or if only
>>> > turned off for a few seconds but

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

 the drive to overload when starting up the spindle.
>> When I was testing it, I was only seeing a brief blip of twenty some odd
>> amps of current when the spindle was accelerating from stopped.  I didn't
>> think that seemed out of place.  But once the spindle warmed up it was
>> enough to freak out the drive and cause it to slow the spindle acceleration
>> way down.  I can't remember what I changed the minimum voltage from, but I
>> lowered it significantly.  After doing that the current output to the
>> spindle when accelerating from stopped stays in the mid-teens, and it
>> always accelerates quickly at the programmed rate.
>>
>> Is your drive a Yaskawa?  What exactly are the drive fault messages?
>>
>> Todd Zuercher
>> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
>> 630 Henry Street
>> Dalton, Ohio 44618
>> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Leonardo Marsaglia 
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2023 3:30 PM
>> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem
>>
>> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
>>
>> About the configuration. I don't know how to post that without making a
>> mess but I just used the parameters that the spindle manufacturer sent me.
>> With that config I was working ok for more than 6 months. So unless
>> something was right there at the limit too far from the correct one. The
>> main change here is ambient temperature. It's been almost 3 weeks with
>> temperatures of about 38°C.
>>
>> El mar, 14 mar 2023 a las 16:04, Todd Zuercher ()
>> escribió:
>>
>> > Most of the big VFD manufactures do offer high frequency versions of
>> > their VFDs but you might have to call and ask for it.  For most it is
>> > simply loading in a special firmware version at the factory that
>> > allows the drive to be set to the higher frequency.  There is usually
>> > a compromise though and a number of other normal features must be
>> > disabled because they don't work at the high frequency.  For example
>> > with the current Yaskawa V1000 drive, the high frequency version goes
>> > up to 1000hz (1500hz under certain circumstances), but it loses all
>> > auto tuning features, flux vector control and a list of other things
>> > are disabled. (Comes with a 10page or so supplement to the manual
>> > covering all of the changes from the stock
>> > firmware.)  But they can be difficult to order.  We tried to order a
>> > new Yaskawa drive more than a year ago, finally last month, after the
>> > 3rd time of the shipping date getting pushed back, we got tired
>> > waiting, canceled the order and bought a used drive off Ebay.  Also
>> > they won't sell them to just anyone, you can't live in the wrong
>> > country and have to offer some proof you have a legitimate use for it.
>> >
>> > PS, I'm still more inclined to thinking either there is a problem with
>> > the VFD's configuration, or the spindle bearings are going bad.  I've
>> > never had a drive cause problems like you're describing (not that I
>> > have that much experience with drives going bad.)  Usually either they
>> > work or they don't.  I've had rectifiers go bad and was able to
>> > replace them and put the drive back in service.  Others that just died
>> > I was not able to pinpoint the failure and just had to replace them.
>> > This last drive I had to replace, I could see being a capacitor
>> > problem.  It would fail to power up for a couple of hours after first
>> turning on the machine in the morning.
>> > It would run fine all week as long as it was left on, or if only
>> > turned off for a few seconds but over night or the weekend it was wait
>> > for the power LED on the drive to turn on, then cycle the power to the
>> > machine to clear the alarms and you were good to go.
>> >
>> > Todd Zuercher
>> > P. Graham Dunn Inc.
>> > 630 Henry Street
>> > Dalton, Ohio 44618
>> > Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>> >
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: Leonardo Marsaglia 
>> > Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2023 1:32 PM
>> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
>> > 
>> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem
>> >
>> > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
>> >
>> > Hi guys, hope you are doing well.
>> >
>> > Well, today I tested it again and had the same behaviour as before. It
>> > works per

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

>
> I can imagine marginal settings push a system over the edge into failure
> at extreme temperatures.  Just for example, I was setting up a Yaskawa F7
> hi-frequency drive for a 13kw 24k rpm spindle a couple weeks ago.  The
> drive was starting and running the spindle seemingly fine while I was
> testing it.  But when we started production we ran into an issue.  Normally
> the drive would only take a few seconds to spin the spindle up to cutting
> speed.  But once it was warmed up it would start to over current on
> accelerating and pause the acceleration to try to prevent the overload.
> The result was the spindle wasn't up to speed when the control started the
> cut and snapped off the bit.  The settings were close enough to prevent the
> drive overloading and shutting down but not close enough to get the spindle
> running right.  The problem ended up being that the minimum frequency and
> voltage were not set to the defaults (used drive) and the min-volt setting
> was too high causing the drive to overload when starting up the spindle.
> When I was testing it, I was only seeing a brief blip of twenty some odd
> amps of current when the spindle was accelerating from stopped.  I didn't
> think that seemed out of place.  But once the spindle warmed up it was
> enough to freak out the drive and cause it to slow the spindle acceleration
> way down.  I can't remember what I changed the minimum voltage from, but I
> lowered it significantly.  After doing that the current output to the
> spindle when accelerating from stopped stays in the mid-teens, and it
> always accelerates quickly at the programmed rate.
>
> Is your drive a Yaskawa?  What exactly are the drive fault messages?
>

This is a Simphoenix E580 (or E280 depending on the market) chinese VFD.

The fault I'm getting is overcurrent during operation. There's an
overcurrent during acceleration but that's not the one I'm getting although
the VFD is failing to get to the working speed. There's a parameter I can
try tomorrow that's called revolution tracking start. The manual says the
following:

1: Revolution tracking start
It is applicable to the occasion of fault resetting and restart and restart
after power-off. The inverter
will automatically judge the running speed and direction of the motor, and
starts the rotating motor in
a smooth and impact-free way according to the detection and judge results;
see below figure for the
revolution tracking start sketch.

I'll keep reading to see If I can find a way to modify the voltage during
acceleration to avoid overcurrent also.


El mar, 14 mar 2023 a las 18:06, Todd Zuercher ()
escribió:

> I can imagine marginal settings push a system over the edge into failure
> at extreme temperatures.  Just for example, I was setting up a Yaskawa F7
> hi-frequency drive for a 13kw 24k rpm spindle a couple weeks ago.  The
> drive was starting and running the spindle seemingly fine while I was
> testing it.  But when we started production we ran into an issue.  Normally
> the drive would only take a few seconds to spin the spindle up to cutting
> speed.  But once it was warmed up it would start to over current on
> accelerating and pause the acceleration to try to prevent the overload.
> The result was the spindle wasn't up to speed when the control started the
> cut and snapped off the bit.  The settings were close enough to prevent the
> drive overloading and shutting down but not close enough to get the spindle
> running right.  The problem ended up being that the minimum frequency and
> voltage were not set to the defaults (used drive) and the min-volt setting
> was too high causing the drive to overload when starting up the spindle.
> When I was testing it, I was only seeing a brief blip of twenty some odd
> amps of current when the spindle was accelerating from stopped.  I didn't
> think that seemed out of place.  But once the spindle warmed up it was
> enough to freak out the drive and cause it to slow the spindle acceleration
> way down.  I can't remember what I changed the minimum voltage from, but I
> lowered it significantly.  After doing that the current output to the
> spindle when accelerating from stopped stays in the mid-teens, and it
> always accelerates quickly at the programmed rate.
>
> Is your drive a Yaskawa?  What exactly are the drive fault messages?
>
> Todd Zuercher
> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> 630 Henry Street
> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>
> -----Original Message-
> From: Leonardo Marsaglia 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2023 3:30 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem
>
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
>
> About the configuration. I don't know how to post that without making a
> mess but I ju

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Todd Zuercher]

I can imagine marginal settings push a system over the edge into failure at 
extreme temperatures.  Just for example, I was setting up a Yaskawa F7 
hi-frequency drive for a 13kw 24k rpm spindle a couple weeks ago.  The drive 
was starting and running the spindle seemingly fine while I was testing it.  
But when we started production we ran into an issue.  Normally the drive would 
only take a few seconds to spin the spindle up to cutting speed.  But once it 
was warmed up it would start to over current on accelerating and pause the 
acceleration to try to prevent the overload.  The result was the spindle wasn't 
up to speed when the control started the cut and snapped off the bit.  The 
settings were close enough to prevent the drive overloading and shutting down 
but not close enough to get the spindle running right.  The problem ended up 
being that the minimum frequency and voltage were not set to the defaults (used 
drive) and the min-volt setting was too high causing the drive to overload when 
starting up the spindle.  When I was testing it, I was only seeing a brief blip 
of twenty some odd amps of current when the spindle was accelerating from 
stopped.  I didn't think that seemed out of place.  But once the spindle warmed 
up it was enough to freak out the drive and cause it to slow the spindle 
acceleration way down.  I can't remember what I changed the minimum voltage 
from, but I lowered it significantly.  After doing that the current output to 
the spindle when accelerating from stopped stays in the mid-teens, and it 
always accelerates quickly at the programmed rate.  

Is your drive a Yaskawa?  What exactly are the drive fault messages?

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street 
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: Leonardo Marsaglia  
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2023 3:30 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

About the configuration. I don't know how to post that without making a mess 
but I just used the parameters that the spindle manufacturer sent me.
With that config I was working ok for more than 6 months. So unless something 
was right there at the limit too far from the correct one. The main change here 
is ambient temperature. It's been almost 3 weeks with temperatures of about 
38°C.

El mar, 14 mar 2023 a las 16:04, Todd Zuercher ()
escribió:

> Most of the big VFD manufactures do offer high frequency versions of 
> their VFDs but you might have to call and ask for it.  For most it is 
> simply loading in a special firmware version at the factory that 
> allows the drive to be set to the higher frequency.  There is usually 
> a compromise though and a number of other normal features must be 
> disabled because they don't work at the high frequency.  For example 
> with the current Yaskawa V1000 drive, the high frequency version goes 
> up to 1000hz (1500hz under certain circumstances), but it loses all 
> auto tuning features, flux vector control and a list of other things 
> are disabled. (Comes with a 10page or so supplement to the manual 
> covering all of the changes from the stock
> firmware.)  But they can be difficult to order.  We tried to order a 
> new Yaskawa drive more than a year ago, finally last month, after the 
> 3rd time of the shipping date getting pushed back, we got tired 
> waiting, canceled the order and bought a used drive off Ebay.  Also 
> they won't sell them to just anyone, you can't live in the wrong 
> country and have to offer some proof you have a legitimate use for it.
>
> PS, I'm still more inclined to thinking either there is a problem with 
> the VFD's configuration, or the spindle bearings are going bad.  I've 
> never had a drive cause problems like you're describing (not that I 
> have that much experience with drives going bad.)  Usually either they 
> work or they don't.  I've had rectifiers go bad and was able to 
> replace them and put the drive back in service.  Others that just died 
> I was not able to pinpoint the failure and just had to replace them.  
> This last drive I had to replace, I could see being a capacitor 
> problem.  It would fail to power up for a couple of hours after first turning 
> on the machine in the morning.
> It would run fine all week as long as it was left on, or if only 
> turned off for a few seconds but over night or the weekend it was wait 
> for the power LED on the drive to turn on, then cycle the power to the 
> machine to clear the alarms and you were good to go.
>
> Todd Zuercher
> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> 630 Henry Street
> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Leonardo Marsaglia 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2023 1:32 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (E

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

About the configuration. I don't know how to post that without making a
mess but I just used the parameters that the spindle manufacturer sent me.
With that config I was working ok for more than 6 months. So unless
something was right there at the limit too far from the correct one. The
main change here is ambient temperature. It's been almost 3 weeks with
temperatures of about 38°C.

El mar, 14 mar 2023 a las 16:04, Todd Zuercher ()
escribió:

> Most of the big VFD manufactures do offer high frequency versions of their
> VFDs but you might have to call and ask for it.  For most it is simply
> loading in a special firmware version at the factory that allows the drive
> to be set to the higher frequency.  There is usually a compromise though
> and a number of other normal features must be disabled because they don't
> work at the high frequency.  For example with the current Yaskawa V1000
> drive, the high frequency version goes up to 1000hz (1500hz under certain
> circumstances), but it loses all auto tuning features, flux vector control
> and a list of other things are disabled. (Comes with a 10page or so
> supplement to the manual covering all of the changes from the stock
> firmware.)  But they can be difficult to order.  We tried to order a new
> Yaskawa drive more than a year ago, finally last month, after the 3rd time
> of the shipping date getting pushed back, we got tired waiting, canceled
> the order and bought a used drive off Ebay.  Also they won't sell them to
> just anyone, you can't live in the wrong country and have to offer some
> proof you have a legitimate use for it.
>
> PS, I'm still more inclined to thinking either there is a problem with the
> VFD's configuration, or the spindle bearings are going bad.  I've never had
> a drive cause problems like you're describing (not that I have that much
> experience with drives going bad.)  Usually either they work or they
> don't.  I've had rectifiers go bad and was able to replace them and put the
> drive back in service.  Others that just died I was not able to pinpoint
> the failure and just had to replace them.  This last drive I had to
> replace, I could see being a capacitor problem.  It would fail to power up
> for a couple of hours after first turning on the machine in the morning.
> It would run fine all week as long as it was left on, or if only turned off
> for a few seconds but over night or the weekend it was wait for the power
> LED on the drive to turn on, then cycle the power to the machine to clear
> the alarms and you were good to go.
>
> Todd Zuercher
> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> 630 Henry Street
> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Leonardo Marsaglia 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2023 1:32 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem
>
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
>
> Hi guys, hope you are doing well.
>
> Well, today I tested it again and had the same behaviour as before. It
> works perfectly at the beginning but then it fails and gives me an
> overcurrent alarm.
>
> I took it apart and nothing seems to be wrong at first sight. I'm thinking
> about replacing the capacitors module but for that I'll have to wait a
> couple of weeks for the new module to arrive. I can desolder and install
> new capacitors on this module, but I can't find something as big as these
> ones here in Argentina. So I think I'll get a new VFD and with that solved
> I'll repair this one.
>
> The best VFD I can get here in terms of cost benefit is a YASKAWA GA500
> that reaches up to 590 Hz. It's more than ok for me since I don't usually
> go more than 500 Hz with this one so that's my solution at this point.
>
>
> El mar, 14 mar 2023 a las 9:16, Todd Zuercher ()
> escribió:
>
> > No, they are not.  Yes most small high speed router spindles (less
> > than
> > 10hp) are 2 pole.  But all of the big HSK-63f tool changer spindles on
> > our big routers at work (9kw+) are 4 pole.  Which by the way makes
> > getting a suitable VFD to run them much much more difficult.  Most
> > VFDs are limited to max output frequencies of about 500hz.  (Something
> > about preventing people from building high speed centrifuges I think.)
> >
> > Todd Zuercher
> > P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> > 630 Henry Street
> > Dalton, Ohio 44618
> > Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Viesturs Lācis 
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2023 6:18 AM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > 
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem
> >
> > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
> &

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

>
> PS, I'm still more inclined to thinking either there is a problem with the
> VFD's configuration, or the spindle bearings are going bad.  I've never had
> a drive cause problems like you're describing (not that I have that much
> experience with drives going bad.)  Usually either they work or they
> don't.  I've had rectifiers go bad and was able to replace them and put the
> drive back in service.  Others that just died I was not able to pinpoint
> the failure and just had to replace them.  This last drive I had to
> replace, I could see being a capacitor problem.  It would fail to power up
> for a couple of hours after first turning on the machine in the morning.
> It would run fine all week as long as it was left on, or if only turned off
> for a few seconds but over night or the weekend it was wait for the power
> LED on the drive to turn on, then cycle the power to the machine to clear
> the alarms and you were good to go.
>

I thought about the bearings too but they feel and sound as always. In
fact, the last time we used the spindle before the VFD stopped working we
were cutting for about 40 minutes + another 25 minutes of preheating of the
spindle before that. The ambient temperature was easily 40°C but the
spindle never reached more than 55°C at the bearings and no more than 60°
at the stator. The temperature settled at those values. Other than that I
don't know where to look on the spindle side.



El mar, 14 mar 2023 a las 16:04, Todd Zuercher ()
escribió:

> Most of the big VFD manufactures do offer high frequency versions of their
> VFDs but you might have to call and ask for it.  For most it is simply
> loading in a special firmware version at the factory that allows the drive
> to be set to the higher frequency.  There is usually a compromise though
> and a number of other normal features must be disabled because they don't
> work at the high frequency.  For example with the current Yaskawa V1000
> drive, the high frequency version goes up to 1000hz (1500hz under certain
> circumstances), but it loses all auto tuning features, flux vector control
> and a list of other things are disabled. (Comes with a 10page or so
> supplement to the manual covering all of the changes from the stock
> firmware.)  But they can be difficult to order.  We tried to order a new
> Yaskawa drive more than a year ago, finally last month, after the 3rd time
> of the shipping date getting pushed back, we got tired waiting, canceled
> the order and bought a used drive off Ebay.  Also they won't sell them to
> just anyone, you can't live in the wrong country and have to offer some
> proof you have a legitimate use for it.
>
> PS, I'm still more inclined to thinking either there is a problem with the
> VFD's configuration, or the spindle bearings are going bad.  I've never had
> a drive cause problems like you're describing (not that I have that much
> experience with drives going bad.)  Usually either they work or they
> don't.  I've had rectifiers go bad and was able to replace them and put the
> drive back in service.  Others that just died I was not able to pinpoint
> the failure and just had to replace them.  This last drive I had to
> replace, I could see being a capacitor problem.  It would fail to power up
> for a couple of hours after first turning on the machine in the morning.
> It would run fine all week as long as it was left on, or if only turned off
> for a few seconds but over night or the weekend it was wait for the power
> LED on the drive to turn on, then cycle the power to the machine to clear
> the alarms and you were good to go.
>
> Todd Zuercher
> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> 630 Henry Street
> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>
> -----Original Message-
> From: Leonardo Marsaglia 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2023 1:32 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem
>
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
>
> Hi guys, hope you are doing well.
>
> Well, today I tested it again and had the same behaviour as before. It
> works perfectly at the beginning but then it fails and gives me an
> overcurrent alarm.
>
> I took it apart and nothing seems to be wrong at first sight. I'm thinking
> about replacing the capacitors module but for that I'll have to wait a
> couple of weeks for the new module to arrive. I can desolder and install
> new capacitors on this module, but I can't find something as big as these
> ones here in Argentina. So I think I'll get a new VFD and with that solved
> I'll repair this one.
>
> The best VFD I can get here in terms of cost benefit is a YASKAWA GA500
> that reaches up to 590 Hz. It's more than ok for me since I don't usually
> go more than 500 Hz with this one so 

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Todd Zuercher]

Most of the big VFD manufactures do offer high frequency versions of their VFDs 
but you might have to call and ask for it.  For most it is simply loading in a 
special firmware version at the factory that allows the drive to be set to the 
higher frequency.  There is usually a compromise though and a number of other 
normal features must be disabled because they don't work at the high frequency. 
 For example with the current Yaskawa V1000 drive, the high frequency version 
goes up to 1000hz (1500hz under certain circumstances), but it loses all auto 
tuning features, flux vector control and a list of other things are disabled. 
(Comes with a 10page or so supplement to the manual covering all of the changes 
from the stock firmware.)  But they can be difficult to order.  We tried to 
order a new Yaskawa drive more than a year ago, finally last month, after the 
3rd time of the shipping date getting pushed back, we got tired waiting, 
canceled the order and bought a used drive off Ebay.  Also they won't sell them 
to just anyone, you can't live in the wrong country and have to offer some 
proof you have a legitimate use for it.

PS, I'm still more inclined to thinking either there is a problem with the 
VFD's configuration, or the spindle bearings are going bad.  I've never had a 
drive cause problems like you're describing (not that I have that much 
experience with drives going bad.)  Usually either they work or they don't.  
I've had rectifiers go bad and was able to replace them and put the drive back 
in service.  Others that just died I was not able to pinpoint the failure and 
just had to replace them.  This last drive I had to replace, I could see being 
a capacitor problem.  It would fail to power up for a couple of hours after 
first turning on the machine in the morning.  It would run fine all week as 
long as it was left on, or if only turned off for a few seconds but over night 
or the weekend it was wait for the power LED on the drive to turn on, then 
cycle the power to the machine to clear the alarms and you were good to go.

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street 
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: Leonardo Marsaglia  
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2023 1:32 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

Hi guys, hope you are doing well.

Well, today I tested it again and had the same behaviour as before. It works 
perfectly at the beginning but then it fails and gives me an overcurrent alarm.

I took it apart and nothing seems to be wrong at first sight. I'm thinking 
about replacing the capacitors module but for that I'll have to wait a couple 
of weeks for the new module to arrive. I can desolder and install new 
capacitors on this module, but I can't find something as big as these ones here 
in Argentina. So I think I'll get a new VFD and with that solved I'll repair 
this one.

The best VFD I can get here in terms of cost benefit is a YASKAWA GA500 that 
reaches up to 590 Hz. It's more than ok for me since I don't usually go more 
than 500 Hz with this one so that's my solution at this point.


El mar, 14 mar 2023 a las 9:16, Todd Zuercher ()
escribió:

> No, they are not.  Yes most small high speed router spindles (less 
> than
> 10hp) are 2 pole.  But all of the big HSK-63f tool changer spindles on 
> our big routers at work (9kw+) are 4 pole.  Which by the way makes 
> getting a suitable VFD to run them much much more difficult.  Most 
> VFDs are limited to max output frequencies of about 500hz.  (Something 
> about preventing people from building high speed centrifuges I think.)
>
> Todd Zuercher
> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> 630 Henry Street
> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Viesturs Lācis 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2023 6:18 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem
>
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
>
> Leonardo, are you sure about those Hz vs. RPM numbers? AFAIK all high 
> speed spindles are 2-pole motors (correct me if I am wrong on this), 
> then you should have 200 Hz for 200 RPS = 12000 RPM and 400 Hz for 400 
> RPS =
> 24000 RPM
>
> Viesturs
>
> pirmd., 2023. g. 13. marts, plkst. 18:55 — lietotājs Leonardo 
> Marsaglia (<
> ldmarsag...@gmail.com>) rakstīja:
> >
> > By  the way, the nominal frequency is 400 hz at 12000 rpm. Nominal 
> > voltage is 380 volts but that varies of course when the VFD is 
> > working. Max frequency is 800 hz at 24000 rpm but I never came close 
> > to
> that.
> >
> > El lun, 13 mar 2023 a las 13:50, Leonardo Marsaglia
> > ()
> > escribió:
> >
> > > Hi Todd, and thanks for t

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Todd Zuercher]

For a router spindle (designed to run at 12-24k rpm) we normally run a warm-up 
routine that takes about 5 min.  Run the spindle at 50% of its maximum rated 
speed for 2 min, then 75% for 2 more min, and then 1 min at 100% of the maximum 
rated speed.

Also I like to do a spindle run in on any spindle that is new or has not been 
ran or been in storage for 6 months or more.  This involves a series of running 
and stopping for a time going from a low speed up.  Checking the spindle temps 
regularly throughout.  It takes a couple of hours or more if all goes well.  If 
at any point during the run-in procedure the spindle starts to overheat, stop 
and let it cool for several hours, then start the run-in procedure over from 
the beginning.  Different manufacturers will have varying recommendations for 
this.  One I've seen is runs at 7% of rated speed for 15min, off for 5min, 12% 
for 15min, off 5min, 20% for 15min, off 5min, 25% for 15min, off 5min,  35% for 
10min, off 5min,  50% for 10min, off 5min, 70"% for 10min.  I've had freshly 
rebuilt spindles fail on the run-in, and some that I've had to restart about 
half way through a couple of times.  During each running step you should see 
bearing temperatures peak, level off and maybe drop a bit at each step in 
speed.  If during one of the steps you don't see the bearing temp level off, 
stop let it cool back to ambient temp and start over.

I would consider more than 20C above ambient temperature to be overheating in 
an air cooled spindle.  I've had spindles that would run that hot normally 
(Omlat "Self Cooled") but I was never able to get one of those to last more 
than 2 years in a 24hr 5day factory setting.  Got tired of paying over $9k a 
pop to rebuild them and replaced them with water cooled Hiteco spindles that 
cost about $6k new and spindle life more than tripled.  Those Omlat spindles 
would be OK in a shop that only runs 1 shift a day, but they don't hold up to 
running 24hr.  With no cooling capability other than sinking heat into the 
machine frame and radiant cooling those "Self Cooled" spindles need the 
overnight down time to cool off.
The other fan cooled spindles we have typicaly only run about 15C above ambient 
(or less).

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street 
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: Viesturs Lācis  
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2023 6:27 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

General question to audience - how are you doing the warmup of spindle? 
Immediately at full speed? I am idling it for few minutes at low speed (around 
3000-5000 RPM) instead of going to full speed immediately. The idea is that 
grease is stiffer when cooler and warmup at lower speeds increases the lifetime 
of bearings.

Viesturs

pirmd., 2023. g. 13. marts, plkst. 18:56 — lietotājs Leonardo Marsaglia 
() rakstīja:
>
> Hi Todd, and thanks for the response!
>
> Well the manufacturer only gave nominal and max speed for the spindle 
> and a couple of graphics to see the u.f. and p.f. curves to have some 
> guidance.
> I'm always using the spindle at 15000 rpm so I think that's ok. Also 
> I've been using it like this for more than 6 months with no troubles 
> and it was working almost 10 hours straight each day.
>
> The spindle sounds right when at high speed and with no cutting forces 
> involved, I can't feel any difference from the first time I tested it. 
> Also by hand it feels the same as always but that could be my 
> perception off course.
>
> Anyway, last Saturday we tested it again. First 25 minutes of warming 
> up without cutting. The temperature settled at 55°C at the body of the 
> spindle. Then we cut a board for about 40 minutes. We monitored the 
> spindle temperature at the bearings and stator and never exceeded the 
> 65°C at the stator / 57°C at the bearings. VFD current, voltage and 
> internal temperature were ok (no more than 43°C when working at full 
> load on the VFD). Then we started to cut another board and that's when 
> the VFD started giving problems. At the moment we tried to accelerate 
> the spindle to 15000 rpm (I'm using a 10 seconds ramp approximately to 
> reach 15000 rpm) the overcurrent alarm started . There was no way of 
> making it to work. It looks to me that the VFD could be the problem because 
> everything else was ok.
>
> Today I'm going to test it again before taking it apart, and then I'll 
> open it and check the capacitors and all the joints to see if I see an 
> evident problem there. But I'm almost 100% sure the problem is in the VFD.
>
>
>
> El lun, 13 mar 2023 a las 13:19, Todd Zuercher 
> ()
> escribió:
>
> > The wrong VFD settings can cause an overheat due to overcurrent.  
> >

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

Hi guys, hope you are doing well.

Well, today I tested it again and had the same behaviour as before. It
works perfectly at the beginning but then it fails and gives me an
overcurrent alarm.

I took it apart and nothing seems to be wrong at first sight. I'm
thinking about replacing the capacitors module but for that I'll have to
wait a couple of weeks for the new module to arrive. I can desolder and
install new capacitors on this module, but I can't find something as big as
these ones here in Argentina. So I think I'll get a new VFD and with that
solved I'll repair this one.

The best VFD I can get here in terms of cost benefit is a YASKAWA GA500
that reaches up to 590 Hz. It's more than ok for me since I don't usually
go more than 500 Hz with this one so that's my solution at this point.


El mar, 14 mar 2023 a las 9:16, Todd Zuercher ()
escribió:

> No, they are not.  Yes most small high speed router spindles (less than
> 10hp) are 2 pole.  But all of the big HSK-63f tool changer spindles on our
> big routers at work (9kw+) are 4 pole.  Which by the way makes getting a
> suitable VFD to run them much much more difficult.  Most VFDs are limited
> to max output frequencies of about 500hz.  (Something about preventing
> people from building high speed centrifuges I think.)
>
> Todd Zuercher
> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> 630 Henry Street
> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Viesturs Lācis 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2023 6:18 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem
>
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
>
> Leonardo, are you sure about those Hz vs. RPM numbers? AFAIK all high
> speed spindles are 2-pole motors (correct me if I am wrong on this), then
> you should have 200 Hz for 200 RPS = 12000 RPM and 400 Hz for 400 RPS =
> 24000 RPM
>
> Viesturs
>
> pirmd., 2023. g. 13. marts, plkst. 18:55 — lietotājs Leonardo Marsaglia (<
> ldmarsag...@gmail.com>) rakstīja:
> >
> > By  the way, the nominal frequency is 400 hz at 12000 rpm. Nominal
> > voltage is 380 volts but that varies of course when the VFD is
> > working. Max frequency is 800 hz at 24000 rpm but I never came close to
> that.
> >
> > El lun, 13 mar 2023 a las 13:50, Leonardo Marsaglia
> > ()
> > escribió:
> >
> > > Hi Todd, and thanks for the response!
> > >
> > > Well the manufacturer only gave nominal and max speed for the
> > > spindle and a couple of graphics to see the u.f. and p.f. curves to
> have some guidance.
> > > I'm always using the spindle at 15000 rpm so I think that's ok. Also
> > > I've been using it like this for more than 6 months with no troubles
> > > and it was working almost 10 hours straight each day.
> > >
> > > The spindle sounds right when at high speed and with no cutting
> > > forces involved, I can't feel any difference from the first time I
> > > tested it. Also by hand it feels the same as always but that could
> > > be my perception off course.
> > >
> > > Anyway, last Saturday we tested it again. First 25 minutes of
> > > warming up without cutting. The temperature settled at 55°C at the
> > > body of the spindle. Then we cut a board for about 40 minutes. We
> > > monitored the spindle temperature at the bearings and stator and
> > > never exceeded the 65°C at the stator / 57°C at the bearings. VFD
> > > current, voltage and internal temperature were ok (no more than 43°C
> > > when working at full load on the VFD). Then we started to cut
> > > another board and that's when the VFD started giving problems. At
> > > the moment we tried to accelerate the spindle to 15000 rpm (I'm
> > > using a 10 seconds ramp approximately to reach 15000 rpm) the
> > > overcurrent alarm started . There was no way of making it to work. It
> looks to me that the VFD could be the problem because everything else was
> ok.
> > >
> > > Today I'm going to test it again before taking it apart, and then
> > > I'll open it and check the capacitors and all the joints to see if I
> > > see an evident problem there. But I'm almost 100% sure the problem is
> in the VFD.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > El lun, 13 mar 2023 a las 13:19, Todd Zuercher
> > > ()
> > > escribió:
> > >
> > >> The wrong VFD settings can cause an overheat due to overcurrent.
> > >> Were you running the spindle at lower RPMs?  Router spindles
> > >> generally don't like running at speeds less than 6000rpm,
> > >> especially if the VFD settin

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Todd Zuercher]

No, they are not.  Yes most small high speed router spindles (less than 10hp) 
are 2 pole.  But all of the big HSK-63f tool changer spindles on our big 
routers at work (9kw+) are 4 pole.  Which by the way makes getting a suitable 
VFD to run them much much more difficult.  Most VFDs are limited to max output 
frequencies of about 500hz.  (Something about preventing people from building 
high speed centrifuges I think.)

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street 
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: Viesturs Lācis  
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2023 6:18 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

Leonardo, are you sure about those Hz vs. RPM numbers? AFAIK all high speed 
spindles are 2-pole motors (correct me if I am wrong on this), then you should 
have 200 Hz for 200 RPS = 12000 RPM and 400 Hz for 400 RPS = 24000 RPM

Viesturs

pirmd., 2023. g. 13. marts, plkst. 18:55 — lietotājs Leonardo Marsaglia 
() rakstīja:
>
> By  the way, the nominal frequency is 400 hz at 12000 rpm. Nominal 
> voltage is 380 volts but that varies of course when the VFD is 
> working. Max frequency is 800 hz at 24000 rpm but I never came close to that.
>
> El lun, 13 mar 2023 a las 13:50, Leonardo Marsaglia 
> ()
> escribió:
>
> > Hi Todd, and thanks for the response!
> >
> > Well the manufacturer only gave nominal and max speed for the 
> > spindle and a couple of graphics to see the u.f. and p.f. curves to have 
> > some guidance.
> > I'm always using the spindle at 15000 rpm so I think that's ok. Also 
> > I've been using it like this for more than 6 months with no troubles 
> > and it was working almost 10 hours straight each day.
> >
> > The spindle sounds right when at high speed and with no cutting 
> > forces involved, I can't feel any difference from the first time I 
> > tested it. Also by hand it feels the same as always but that could 
> > be my perception off course.
> >
> > Anyway, last Saturday we tested it again. First 25 minutes of 
> > warming up without cutting. The temperature settled at 55°C at the 
> > body of the spindle. Then we cut a board for about 40 minutes. We 
> > monitored the spindle temperature at the bearings and stator and 
> > never exceeded the 65°C at the stator / 57°C at the bearings. VFD 
> > current, voltage and internal temperature were ok (no more than 43°C 
> > when working at full load on the VFD). Then we started to cut 
> > another board and that's when the VFD started giving problems. At 
> > the moment we tried to accelerate the spindle to 15000 rpm (I'm 
> > using a 10 seconds ramp approximately to reach 15000 rpm) the 
> > overcurrent alarm started . There was no way of making it to work. It looks 
> > to me that the VFD could be the problem because everything else was ok.
> >
> > Today I'm going to test it again before taking it apart, and then 
> > I'll open it and check the capacitors and all the joints to see if I 
> > see an evident problem there. But I'm almost 100% sure the problem is in 
> > the VFD.
> >
> >
> >
> > El lun, 13 mar 2023 a las 13:19, Todd Zuercher 
> > ()
> > escribió:
> >
> >> The wrong VFD settings can cause an overheat due to overcurrent.  
> >> Were you running the spindle at lower RPMs?  Router spindles 
> >> generally don't like running at speeds less than 6000rpm, 
> >> especially if the VFD settings aren’t right.  The VFD needs to be 
> >> set so that it reduces the voltage applied with reduced frequency.  
> >> If this volt/hz reduction curve isn't right, either you can over 
> >> current and overheat the motor at lower speeds, or if set too low 
> >> you lose what little torque the spindle has.  To know what these 
> >> settings need to be set to you need to know the motor's rated speed 
> >> and voltage at those speeds and current ratings.  If the spindle 
> >> manufacturer didn't supply a midrange voltage setting, you may need to 
> >> find that setting experimentally.
> >>
> >> That said, high speed spindle bearings can be failing and the 
> >> spindle still spin mostly freely by hand, but the spindle will be 
> >> loud at speed due to vibration and will overheat if run for 
> >> extended periods of time at speed.  A high speed spindle should be 
> >> very quiet at speed (not sound like a conventional router motor.) 
> >> Check for any slightest notchy-ness, when turning the spindle by 
> >> hand.  It is often more cost-effective to have a loud spindle 
> 

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[gene heskett]

On 3/13/23 12:51, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote:
[...]

Well, I tested it for almost an hour with no load at 15000 RPM and
the temperature settled at 55ºC in the bottom side where the bearings
for the tool holder are, and almost 65º in the body part where the

stator is.

According to one of the Chinese suppliers of these spindles, 75ºC
it's a pretty common working temperature. I'm still waiting for a
detailed answer from the factory. This time, the VFD worked fine, no
whining with no rotor spin. Now I need to cut some wood while
monitoring the temperature during the process and hope the temperature

doesn't go too high.


Anyway, I'm looking for new VFD drives just in case. From what I can
tell the problem could be the VFD as Gene and Jon pointed out.
One other point. The big supply caps in the vfd, according to some docs 
I've read, can develop excessive ESR, and recommended replacement time 
is 5 years.


If you had it running hard for those 5 years, that is another possible 
problem.  That, given the cap makers are learning, might be a one time 
thing.  That will give itself away if you can see the cap terminals with 
an IR thermometer. They will be HOT. You say its hit 45C, so I'd suspect

anything over 50C. I have not had to do that, yet...

Capacitors are the highest failure rate of any electronics parts 
assembly by a large margin.  That and fuses that look good, until 
inspected with a microscope. The fusible element will be found to be 
crystalized, and eventually breaks due to bending fatigue, but isn't 
blown in the classic sense. Looks great, till you check it with an 
ohm-meter.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[gene heskett]

) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

In fact, the day the rotor slipped, when the spindle cooled down a bit, it 
started to work ok until I had the problem again. What I'm mostly worried about 
is, if this was caused due to an overheat, why did that overheat occur in the 
first place?

El mié, 8 mar 2023 a las 11:17, Leonardo Marsaglia ()
escribió:


Most high speed spindles (such as router spindles) are rather
particular

about how the VFD is configured because of their low inductance.
What are your settings for base frequency and voltage? You may need
to adjust the settings for midrange frequency and voltage.  What
these settings will do is adjust the volts/hertz curve to help keep
the motor from overcurrent when running at lower RPMs, and help
prevent stalls/excessive slippage on acceleration.  These settings
usually need to be significantly different from most VFD's default
setting (which are usually configured for a 60hz
motor.)



Hi Todd,

I'll take a look and attach my settings as soon as possible for you to
see. But this setup was working well until the extreme heat days started.

Could it be that the ambient temperature (40ºC or more) could have
made the rotor slip effect worse? Maybe I was on the limit before and
the extreme heat conditions triggered the effect?

Thank you!

El mié, 8 mar 2023 a las 10:57, Todd Zuercher
()
escribió:


Most high speed spindles (such as router spindles) are rather
particular about how the VFD is configured because of their low
inductance.  What are your settings for base frequency and voltage?
You may need to adjust the settings for midrange frequency and
voltage.  What these settings will do is adjust the volts/hertz curve
to help keep the motor from overcurrent when running at lower RPMs,
and help prevent stalls/excessive slippage on acceleration.  These
settings usually need to be significantly different from most VFD's
default setting (which are usually configured for a 60hz
motor.)

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: Leonardo Marsaglia 
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2023 10:05 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)

Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

Well, I tested it for almost an hour with no load at 15000 RPM and
the temperature settled at 55ºC in the bottom side where the bearings
for the tool holder are, and almost 65º in the body part where the stator is.
According to one of the Chinese suppliers of these spindles, 75ºC
it's a pretty common working temperature. I'm still waiting for a
detailed answer from the factory. This time, the VFD worked fine, no
whining with no rotor spin. Now I need to cut some wood while
monitoring the temperature during the process and hope the temperature doesn't 
go too high.

Anyway, I'm looking for new VFD drives just in case. From what I can
tell the problem could be the VFD as Gene and Jon pointed out.

I'll let you know how it goes when cutting wood again.

Thanks to all for your help! :)

El dom, 5 mar 2023 a las 18:11, gene heskett ()
escribió:


On 3/5/23 12:59, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote:

By the way, one subtle thing I noticed too that leads me to the
bearings

as

a problem.

Normally when the spindle is off and the dust removal vacuum
system is working, the spindle tends to spin by itself because of
the vacuum action on the impeller I installed. This almost never
happened yesterday. So, to sum up: I was able to free turn the
spindle by hand at all times, but the vacuum was not always able
to make it spin the impeller and if it did it wasn't nearly as
fast as days before. This is what makes me suspect about the
bearings. Also, almost all the problems I experienced yesterday
were with cutting forces involved, never with the spindle turning
free. Could

it

be that the extra heat and torque that's building up because of a
damaged bearing is what's making the VFD triggering for overcurrent?

What puzzles me still is when the spindle was too hot and with no
load

the

VFD only whined and couldn't make the spindle turn. This, as Jon
pointed out, recovered on its own a few minutes later.

I'll be there doing some tests in a few hours so I'll let you
know if I

can

note anything new.

Again a lot of thanks to you guys for being so kind and helpful!
:)

El sáb, 4 mar 2023 a las 15:51, Leonardo Marsaglia (<

ldmarsag...@gmail.com>)

escribió:


Hi guys.

Sorry for the OT but I'm having a strange behavior with my
spindle and

I'm

a little worried.

The problem I had today for the first time is the spindle was
getting really hot and started to slip (you could hear the
frequency from the inverter was on spot but the rotor sometimes
wasn't even turning).After

a

few seconds of slipping the VFD triggered the over current alarm
and the spindle was stopped. Once the the spindle cooled down it

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Viesturs Lācis]

t; > For example I was just working at replacing a VFD for an HSD spindle that
> > had recommendations for 7k rpm @ 220v for the mid-range, but I also had to
> > set the minimum frequency and voltage to 0.5Hz and 1.0v, to prevent the
> > motor from occasionally stalling on acceleration when starting from
> > stopped.  When those settings were incorrect the drive would overcurrent
> > and shut down.  When they were close but not quite right the drive would
> > run at high current and not always accelerate correctly (stalling).  With
> > them correct the drive accelerates the spindle quickly and only shows peak
> > currents of about 15amps while doing it.
> >
> > PS I meant to send this last week, but forgot to click send, so it sat on
> > my work computer till this morning.
> >
> > Todd Zuercher
> > P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> > 630 Henry Street
> > Dalton, Ohio 44618
> > Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Leonardo Marsaglia 
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2023 9:20 AM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem
> >
> > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
> >
> > In fact, the day the rotor slipped, when the spindle cooled down a bit, it
> > started to work ok until I had the problem again. What I'm mostly worried
> > about is, if this was caused due to an overheat, why did that overheat
> > occur in the first place?
> >
> > El mié, 8 mar 2023 a las 11:17, Leonardo Marsaglia ( > >)
> > escribió:
> >
> > > Most high speed spindles (such as router spindles) are rather
> > > particular
> > >> about how the VFD is configured because of their low inductance.
> > >> What are your settings for base frequency and voltage? You may need
> > >> to adjust the settings for midrange frequency and voltage.  What
> > >> these settings will do is adjust the volts/hertz curve to help keep
> > >> the motor from overcurrent when running at lower RPMs, and help
> > >> prevent stalls/excessive slippage on acceleration.  These settings
> > >> usually need to be significantly different from most VFD's default
> > >> setting (which are usually configured for a 60hz
> > >> motor.)
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Todd,
> > >
> > > I'll take a look and attach my settings as soon as possible for you to
> > > see. But this setup was working well until the extreme heat days started.
> > >
> > > Could it be that the ambient temperature (40ºC or more) could have
> > > made the rotor slip effect worse? Maybe I was on the limit before and
> > > the extreme heat conditions triggered the effect?
> > >
> > > Thank you!
> > >
> > > El mié, 8 mar 2023 a las 10:57, Todd Zuercher
> > > ()
> > > escribió:
> > >
> > >> Most high speed spindles (such as router spindles) are rather
> > >> particular about how the VFD is configured because of their low
> > >> inductance.  What are your settings for base frequency and voltage?
> > >> You may need to adjust the settings for midrange frequency and
> > >> voltage.  What these settings will do is adjust the volts/hertz curve
> > >> to help keep the motor from overcurrent when running at lower RPMs,
> > >> and help prevent stalls/excessive slippage on acceleration.  These
> > >> settings usually need to be significantly different from most VFD's
> > >> default setting (which are usually configured for a 60hz
> > >> motor.)
> > >>
> > >> Todd Zuercher
> > >> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> > >> 630 Henry Street
> > >> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> > >> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
> > >>
> > >> -Original Message-
> > >> From: Leonardo Marsaglia 
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2023 10:05 PM
> > >> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > >> 
> > >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem
> > >>
> > >> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
> > >>
> > >> Well, I tested it for almost an hour with no load at 15000 RPM and
> > >> the temperature settled at 55ºC in the bottom side where the bearings
> > >> for the tool holder are, and almost 65º in the body part where the
> > stator is.
> > >> According to one of the Chinese suppliers of these spindles, 75ºC
> > &

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Viesturs Lācis]

ovided you with some numbers to use for the
> >> mid-range settings if so, use them.  They may not be called that, it might
> >> just look like a low or minimum speed setting with a reduced voltage (might
> >> be 5-7k rpm).  If you don’t have a recommendation from the spindle
> >> manufacture, experiment with different mid-range voltage settings to find
> >> one that keeps the VFD’s current output safely below the spindles rated
> >> continuous current.
> >>
> >> For example I was just working at replacing a VFD for an HSD spindle that
> >> had recommendations for 7k rpm @ 220v for the mid-range, but I also had to
> >> set the minimum frequency and voltage to 0.5Hz and 1.0v, to prevent the
> >> motor from occasionally stalling on acceleration when starting from
> >> stopped.  When those settings were incorrect the drive would overcurrent
> >> and shut down.  When they were close but not quite right the drive would
> >> run at high current and not always accelerate correctly (stalling).  With
> >> them correct the drive accelerates the spindle quickly and only shows peak
> >> currents of about 15amps while doing it.
> >>
> >> PS I meant to send this last week, but forgot to click send, so it sat on
> >> my work computer till this morning.
> >>
> >> Todd Zuercher
> >> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> >> 630 Henry Street
> >> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> >> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Leonardo Marsaglia 
> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2023 9:20 AM
> >> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem
> >>
> >> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
> >>
> >> In fact, the day the rotor slipped, when the spindle cooled down a bit,
> >> it started to work ok until I had the problem again. What I'm mostly
> >> worried about is, if this was caused due to an overheat, why did that
> >> overheat occur in the first place?
> >>
> >> El mié, 8 mar 2023 a las 11:17, Leonardo Marsaglia (<
> >> ldmarsag...@gmail.com>)
> >> escribió:
> >>
> >> > Most high speed spindles (such as router spindles) are rather
> >> > particular
> >> >> about how the VFD is configured because of their low inductance.
> >> >> What are your settings for base frequency and voltage? You may need
> >> >> to adjust the settings for midrange frequency and voltage.  What
> >> >> these settings will do is adjust the volts/hertz curve to help keep
> >> >> the motor from overcurrent when running at lower RPMs, and help
> >> >> prevent stalls/excessive slippage on acceleration.  These settings
> >> >> usually need to be significantly different from most VFD's default
> >> >> setting (which are usually configured for a 60hz
> >> >> motor.)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Hi Todd,
> >> >
> >> > I'll take a look and attach my settings as soon as possible for you to
> >> > see. But this setup was working well until the extreme heat days
> >> started.
> >> >
> >> > Could it be that the ambient temperature (40ºC or more) could have
> >> > made the rotor slip effect worse? Maybe I was on the limit before and
> >> > the extreme heat conditions triggered the effect?
> >> >
> >> > Thank you!
> >> >
> >> > El mié, 8 mar 2023 a las 10:57, Todd Zuercher
> >> > ()
> >> > escribió:
> >> >
> >> >> Most high speed spindles (such as router spindles) are rather
> >> >> particular about how the VFD is configured because of their low
> >> >> inductance.  What are your settings for base frequency and voltage?
> >> >> You may need to adjust the settings for midrange frequency and
> >> >> voltage.  What these settings will do is adjust the volts/hertz curve
> >> >> to help keep the motor from overcurrent when running at lower RPMs,
> >> >> and help prevent stalls/excessive slippage on acceleration.  These
> >> >> settings usually need to be significantly different from most VFD's
> >> >> default setting (which are usually configured for a 60hz
> >> >> motor.)
> >> >>
> >> >> Todd Zuercher
> >> >> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> >> >> 630 Henry Street
>

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

imum frequency and voltage to 0.5Hz and 1.0v, to prevent the
>> motor from occasionally stalling on acceleration when starting from
>> stopped.  When those settings were incorrect the drive would overcurrent
>> and shut down.  When they were close but not quite right the drive would
>> run at high current and not always accelerate correctly (stalling).  With
>> them correct the drive accelerates the spindle quickly and only shows peak
>> currents of about 15amps while doing it.
>>
>> PS I meant to send this last week, but forgot to click send, so it sat on
>> my work computer till this morning.
>>
>> Todd Zuercher
>> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
>> 630 Henry Street
>> Dalton, Ohio 44618
>> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Leonardo Marsaglia 
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2023 9:20 AM
>> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem
>>
>> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
>>
>> In fact, the day the rotor slipped, when the spindle cooled down a bit,
>> it started to work ok until I had the problem again. What I'm mostly
>> worried about is, if this was caused due to an overheat, why did that
>> overheat occur in the first place?
>>
>> El mié, 8 mar 2023 a las 11:17, Leonardo Marsaglia (<
>> ldmarsag...@gmail.com>)
>> escribió:
>>
>> > Most high speed spindles (such as router spindles) are rather
>> > particular
>> >> about how the VFD is configured because of their low inductance.
>> >> What are your settings for base frequency and voltage? You may need
>> >> to adjust the settings for midrange frequency and voltage.  What
>> >> these settings will do is adjust the volts/hertz curve to help keep
>> >> the motor from overcurrent when running at lower RPMs, and help
>> >> prevent stalls/excessive slippage on acceleration.  These settings
>> >> usually need to be significantly different from most VFD's default
>> >> setting (which are usually configured for a 60hz
>> >> motor.)
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi Todd,
>> >
>> > I'll take a look and attach my settings as soon as possible for you to
>> > see. But this setup was working well until the extreme heat days
>> started.
>> >
>> > Could it be that the ambient temperature (40ºC or more) could have
>> > made the rotor slip effect worse? Maybe I was on the limit before and
>> > the extreme heat conditions triggered the effect?
>> >
>> > Thank you!
>> >
>> > El mié, 8 mar 2023 a las 10:57, Todd Zuercher
>> > ()
>> > escribió:
>> >
>> >> Most high speed spindles (such as router spindles) are rather
>> >> particular about how the VFD is configured because of their low
>> >> inductance.  What are your settings for base frequency and voltage?
>> >> You may need to adjust the settings for midrange frequency and
>> >> voltage.  What these settings will do is adjust the volts/hertz curve
>> >> to help keep the motor from overcurrent when running at lower RPMs,
>> >> and help prevent stalls/excessive slippage on acceleration.  These
>> >> settings usually need to be significantly different from most VFD's
>> >> default setting (which are usually configured for a 60hz
>> >> motor.)
>> >>
>> >> Todd Zuercher
>> >> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
>> >> 630 Henry Street
>> >> Dalton, Ohio 44618
>> >> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>> >>
>> >> -Original Message-
>> >> From: Leonardo Marsaglia 
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2023 10:05 PM
>> >> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
>> >> 
>> >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem
>> >>
>> >> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
>> >>
>> >> Well, I tested it for almost an hour with no load at 15000 RPM and
>> >> the temperature settled at 55ºC in the bottom side where the bearings
>> >> for the tool holder are, and almost 65º in the body part where the
>> stator is.
>> >> According to one of the Chinese suppliers of these spindles, 75ºC
>> >> it's a pretty common working temperature. I'm still waiting for a
>> >> detailed answer from the factory. This time, the VFD worked fine, no
>> >> whining with no rotor spin. Now I need to cut some wood while

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

y work computer till this morning.
>
> Todd Zuercher
> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> 630 Henry Street
> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Leonardo Marsaglia 
> Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2023 9:20 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem
>
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
>
> In fact, the day the rotor slipped, when the spindle cooled down a bit, it
> started to work ok until I had the problem again. What I'm mostly worried
> about is, if this was caused due to an overheat, why did that overheat
> occur in the first place?
>
> El mié, 8 mar 2023 a las 11:17, Leonardo Marsaglia ( >)
> escribió:
>
> > Most high speed spindles (such as router spindles) are rather
> > particular
> >> about how the VFD is configured because of their low inductance.
> >> What are your settings for base frequency and voltage? You may need
> >> to adjust the settings for midrange frequency and voltage.  What
> >> these settings will do is adjust the volts/hertz curve to help keep
> >> the motor from overcurrent when running at lower RPMs, and help
> >> prevent stalls/excessive slippage on acceleration.  These settings
> >> usually need to be significantly different from most VFD's default
> >> setting (which are usually configured for a 60hz
> >> motor.)
> >
> >
> > Hi Todd,
> >
> > I'll take a look and attach my settings as soon as possible for you to
> > see. But this setup was working well until the extreme heat days started.
> >
> > Could it be that the ambient temperature (40ºC or more) could have
> > made the rotor slip effect worse? Maybe I was on the limit before and
> > the extreme heat conditions triggered the effect?
> >
> > Thank you!
> >
> > El mié, 8 mar 2023 a las 10:57, Todd Zuercher
> > ()
> > escribió:
> >
> >> Most high speed spindles (such as router spindles) are rather
> >> particular about how the VFD is configured because of their low
> >> inductance.  What are your settings for base frequency and voltage?
> >> You may need to adjust the settings for midrange frequency and
> >> voltage.  What these settings will do is adjust the volts/hertz curve
> >> to help keep the motor from overcurrent when running at lower RPMs,
> >> and help prevent stalls/excessive slippage on acceleration.  These
> >> settings usually need to be significantly different from most VFD's
> >> default setting (which are usually configured for a 60hz
> >> motor.)
> >>
> >> Todd Zuercher
> >> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> >> 630 Henry Street
> >> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> >> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Leonardo Marsaglia 
> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2023 10:05 PM
> >> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> >> 
> >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem
> >>
> >> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
> >>
> >> Well, I tested it for almost an hour with no load at 15000 RPM and
> >> the temperature settled at 55ºC in the bottom side where the bearings
> >> for the tool holder are, and almost 65º in the body part where the
> stator is.
> >> According to one of the Chinese suppliers of these spindles, 75ºC
> >> it's a pretty common working temperature. I'm still waiting for a
> >> detailed answer from the factory. This time, the VFD worked fine, no
> >> whining with no rotor spin. Now I need to cut some wood while
> >> monitoring the temperature during the process and hope the temperature
> doesn't go too high.
> >>
> >> Anyway, I'm looking for new VFD drives just in case. From what I can
> >> tell the problem could be the VFD as Gene and Jon pointed out.
> >>
> >> I'll let you know how it goes when cutting wood again.
> >>
> >> Thanks to all for your help! :)
> >>
> >> El dom, 5 mar 2023 a las 18:11, gene heskett ()
> >> escribió:
> >>
> >> > On 3/5/23 12:59, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote:
> >> > > By the way, one subtle thing I noticed too that leads me to the
> >> > > bearings
> >> > as
> >> > > a problem.
> >> > >
> >> > > Normally when the spindle is off and the dust removal vacuum
> >> > > system is working, the spindle tends to spin by itself because of
> >> > > 

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Todd Zuercher]

The wrong VFD settings can cause an overheat due to overcurrent.  Were you 
running the spindle at lower RPMs?  Router spindles generally don't like 
running at speeds less than 6000rpm, especially if the VFD settings aren’t 
right.  The VFD needs to be set so that it reduces the voltage applied with 
reduced frequency.  If this volt/hz reduction curve isn't right, either you can 
over current and overheat the motor at lower speeds, or if set too low you lose 
what little torque the spindle has.  To know what these settings need to be set 
to you need to know the motor's rated speed and voltage at those speeds and 
current ratings.  If the spindle manufacturer didn't supply a midrange voltage 
setting, you may need to find that setting experimentally.

That said, high speed spindle bearings can be failing and the spindle still 
spin mostly freely by hand, but the spindle will be loud at speed due to 
vibration and will overheat if run for extended periods of time at speed.  A 
high speed spindle should be very quiet at speed (not sound like a conventional 
router motor.) Check for any slightest notchy-ness, when turning the spindle by 
hand.  It is often more cost-effective to have a loud spindle rebuilt before it 
totally fails, than to run it till it won’t run anymore and then try to rebuilt 
it or have to replace it because damage to the spindle is too severe.

What are your spindle motor’s rated speed, voltage and current? What do you 
have the VFD set up for minimum, maximum, base and mid-range voltages, and 
frequencies?  Yes, those are 8 separate settings that most VFDs need to have 
configured to run a high speed spindle correctly.  Unfortunately many times the 
spindle manufacture will only provide you with the spindle’s rated frequency 
and voltage (use this for the “Base” frequency and voltage in the VFD) and the 
maximum frequency and  maybe voltage.  If you are lucky and the spindle 
manufacture provided you with some numbers to use for the mid-range settings if 
so, use them.  They may not be called that, it might just look like a low or 
minimum speed setting with a reduced voltage (might be 5-7k rpm).  If you don’t 
have a recommendation from the spindle manufacture, experiment with different 
mid-range voltage settings to find one that keeps the VFD’s current output 
safely below the spindles rated continuous current.

For example I was just working at replacing a VFD for an HSD spindle that had 
recommendations for 7k rpm @ 220v for the mid-range, but I also had to set the 
minimum frequency and voltage to 0.5Hz and 1.0v, to prevent the motor from 
occasionally stalling on acceleration when starting from stopped.  When those 
settings were incorrect the drive would overcurrent and shut down.  When they 
were close but not quite right the drive would run at high current and not 
always accelerate correctly (stalling).  With them correct the drive 
accelerates the spindle quickly and only shows peak currents of about 15amps 
while doing it.

PS I meant to send this last week, but forgot to click send, so it sat on my 
work computer till this morning.

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: Leonardo Marsaglia 
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2023 9:20 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

In fact, the day the rotor slipped, when the spindle cooled down a bit, it 
started to work ok until I had the problem again. What I'm mostly worried about 
is, if this was caused due to an overheat, why did that overheat occur in the 
first place?

El mié, 8 mar 2023 a las 11:17, Leonardo Marsaglia ()
escribió:

> Most high speed spindles (such as router spindles) are rather
> particular
>> about how the VFD is configured because of their low inductance.
>> What are your settings for base frequency and voltage? You may need
>> to adjust the settings for midrange frequency and voltage.  What
>> these settings will do is adjust the volts/hertz curve to help keep
>> the motor from overcurrent when running at lower RPMs, and help
>> prevent stalls/excessive slippage on acceleration.  These settings
>> usually need to be significantly different from most VFD's default
>> setting (which are usually configured for a 60hz
>> motor.)
>
>
> Hi Todd,
>
> I'll take a look and attach my settings as soon as possible for you to
> see. But this setup was working well until the extreme heat days started.
>
> Could it be that the ambient temperature (40ºC or more) could have
> made the rotor slip effect worse? Maybe I was on the limit before and
> the extreme heat conditions triggered the effect?
>
> Thank you!
>
> El mié, 8 mar 2023 a las 10:57, Todd Zuercher
> ()
> escribió:
>
>> Most high speed spindles 

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

In fact, the day the rotor slipped, when the spindle cooled down a bit, it
started to work ok until I had the problem again. What I'm mostly worried
about is, if this was caused due to an overheat, why did that overheat
occur in the first place?

El mié, 8 mar 2023 a las 11:17, Leonardo Marsaglia ()
escribió:

> Most high speed spindles (such as router spindles) are rather particular
>> about how the VFD is configured because of their low inductance.  What are
>> your settings for base frequency and voltage? You may need to adjust the
>> settings for midrange frequency and voltage.  What these settings will do
>> is adjust the volts/hertz curve to help keep the motor from overcurrent
>> when running at lower RPMs, and help prevent stalls/excessive slippage on
>> acceleration.  These settings usually need to be significantly different
>> from most VFD's default setting (which are usually configured for a 60hz
>> motor.)
>
>
> Hi Todd,
>
> I'll take a look and attach my settings as soon as possible for you to
> see. But this setup was working well until the extreme heat days started.
>
> Could it be that the ambient temperature (40ºC or more) could have made
> the rotor slip effect worse? Maybe I was on the limit before and the
> extreme heat conditions triggered the effect?
>
> Thank you!
>
> El mié, 8 mar 2023 a las 10:57, Todd Zuercher ()
> escribió:
>
>> Most high speed spindles (such as router spindles) are rather particular
>> about how the VFD is configured because of their low inductance.  What are
>> your settings for base frequency and voltage? You may need to adjust the
>> settings for midrange frequency and voltage.  What these settings will do
>> is adjust the volts/hertz curve to help keep the motor from overcurrent
>> when running at lower RPMs, and help prevent stalls/excessive slippage on
>> acceleration.  These settings usually need to be significantly different
>> from most VFD's default setting (which are usually configured for a 60hz
>> motor.)
>>
>> Todd Zuercher
>> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
>> 630 Henry Street
>> Dalton, Ohio 44618
>> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Leonardo Marsaglia 
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2023 10:05 PM
>> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem
>>
>> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
>>
>> Well, I tested it for almost an hour with no load at 15000 RPM and the
>> temperature settled at 55ºC in the bottom side where the bearings for the
>> tool holder are, and almost 65º in the body part where the stator is.
>> According to one of the Chinese suppliers of these spindles, 75ºC it's a
>> pretty common working temperature. I'm still waiting for a detailed answer
>> from the factory. This time, the VFD worked fine, no whining with no rotor
>> spin. Now I need to cut some wood while monitoring the temperature during
>> the process and hope the temperature doesn't go too high.
>>
>> Anyway, I'm looking for new VFD drives just in case. From what I can tell
>> the problem could be the VFD as Gene and Jon pointed out.
>>
>> I'll let you know how it goes when cutting wood again.
>>
>> Thanks to all for your help! :)
>>
>> El dom, 5 mar 2023 a las 18:11, gene heskett ()
>> escribió:
>>
>> > On 3/5/23 12:59, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote:
>> > > By the way, one subtle thing I noticed too that leads me to the
>> > > bearings
>> > as
>> > > a problem.
>> > >
>> > > Normally when the spindle is off and the dust removal vacuum system
>> > > is working, the spindle tends to spin by itself because of the
>> > > vacuum action on the impeller I installed. This almost never
>> > > happened yesterday. So, to sum up: I was able to free turn the
>> > > spindle by hand at all times, but the vacuum was not always able to
>> > > make it spin the impeller and if it did it wasn't nearly as fast as
>> > > days before. This is what makes me suspect about the bearings. Also,
>> > > almost all the problems I experienced yesterday were with cutting
>> > > forces involved, never with the spindle turning free. Could
>> > it
>> > > be that the extra heat and torque that's building up because of a
>> > > damaged bearing is what's making the VFD triggering for overcurrent?
>> > >
>> > > What puzzles me still is when the spindle was too hot and with no
>> > > load
>> > the
>> > > VFD only wh

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

>
> Most high speed spindles (such as router spindles) are rather particular
> about how the VFD is configured because of their low inductance.  What are
> your settings for base frequency and voltage? You may need to adjust the
> settings for midrange frequency and voltage.  What these settings will do
> is adjust the volts/hertz curve to help keep the motor from overcurrent
> when running at lower RPMs, and help prevent stalls/excessive slippage on
> acceleration.  These settings usually need to be significantly different
> from most VFD's default setting (which are usually configured for a 60hz
> motor.)


Hi Todd,

I'll take a look and attach my settings as soon as possible for you to see.
But this setup was working well until the extreme heat days started.

Could it be that the ambient temperature (40ºC or more) could have made the
rotor slip effect worse? Maybe I was on the limit before and the extreme
heat conditions triggered the effect?

Thank you!

El mié, 8 mar 2023 a las 10:57, Todd Zuercher ()
escribió:

> Most high speed spindles (such as router spindles) are rather particular
> about how the VFD is configured because of their low inductance.  What are
> your settings for base frequency and voltage? You may need to adjust the
> settings for midrange frequency and voltage.  What these settings will do
> is adjust the volts/hertz curve to help keep the motor from overcurrent
> when running at lower RPMs, and help prevent stalls/excessive slippage on
> acceleration.  These settings usually need to be significantly different
> from most VFD's default setting (which are usually configured for a 60hz
> motor.)
>
> Todd Zuercher
> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> 630 Henry Street
> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Leonardo Marsaglia 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2023 10:05 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem
>
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
>
> Well, I tested it for almost an hour with no load at 15000 RPM and the
> temperature settled at 55ºC in the bottom side where the bearings for the
> tool holder are, and almost 65º in the body part where the stator is.
> According to one of the Chinese suppliers of these spindles, 75ºC it's a
> pretty common working temperature. I'm still waiting for a detailed answer
> from the factory. This time, the VFD worked fine, no whining with no rotor
> spin. Now I need to cut some wood while monitoring the temperature during
> the process and hope the temperature doesn't go too high.
>
> Anyway, I'm looking for new VFD drives just in case. From what I can tell
> the problem could be the VFD as Gene and Jon pointed out.
>
> I'll let you know how it goes when cutting wood again.
>
> Thanks to all for your help! :)
>
> El dom, 5 mar 2023 a las 18:11, gene heskett ()
> escribió:
>
> > On 3/5/23 12:59, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote:
> > > By the way, one subtle thing I noticed too that leads me to the
> > > bearings
> > as
> > > a problem.
> > >
> > > Normally when the spindle is off and the dust removal vacuum system
> > > is working, the spindle tends to spin by itself because of the
> > > vacuum action on the impeller I installed. This almost never
> > > happened yesterday. So, to sum up: I was able to free turn the
> > > spindle by hand at all times, but the vacuum was not always able to
> > > make it spin the impeller and if it did it wasn't nearly as fast as
> > > days before. This is what makes me suspect about the bearings. Also,
> > > almost all the problems I experienced yesterday were with cutting
> > > forces involved, never with the spindle turning free. Could
> > it
> > > be that the extra heat and torque that's building up because of a
> > > damaged bearing is what's making the VFD triggering for overcurrent?
> > >
> > > What puzzles me still is when the spindle was too hot and with no
> > > load
> > the
> > > VFD only whined and couldn't make the spindle turn. This, as Jon
> > > pointed out, recovered on its own a few minutes later.
> > >
> > > I'll be there doing some tests in a few hours so I'll let you know
> > > if I
> > can
> > > note anything new.
> > >
> > > Again a lot of thanks to you guys for being so kind and helpful! :)
> > >
> > > El sáb, 4 mar 2023 a las 15:51, Leonardo Marsaglia (<
> > ldmarsag...@gmail.com>)
> > > escribió:
> > >
> > >> Hi guys.
> > >>
> > >> Sorry for the OT but I'm having a strange behavior with 

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Todd Zuercher]

Most high speed spindles (such as router spindles) are rather particular about 
how the VFD is configured because of their low inductance.  What are your 
settings for base frequency and voltage? You may need to adjust the settings 
for midrange frequency and voltage.  What these settings will do is adjust the 
volts/hertz curve to help keep the motor from overcurrent when running at lower 
RPMs, and help prevent stalls/excessive slippage on acceleration.  These 
settings usually need to be significantly different from most VFD's default 
setting (which are usually configured for a 60hz motor.)

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street 
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: Leonardo Marsaglia  
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2023 10:05 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

Well, I tested it for almost an hour with no load at 15000 RPM and the 
temperature settled at 55ºC in the bottom side where the bearings for the tool 
holder are, and almost 65º in the body part where the stator is.
According to one of the Chinese suppliers of these spindles, 75ºC it's a pretty 
common working temperature. I'm still waiting for a detailed answer from the 
factory. This time, the VFD worked fine, no whining with no rotor spin. Now I 
need to cut some wood while monitoring the temperature during the process and 
hope the temperature doesn't go too high.

Anyway, I'm looking for new VFD drives just in case. From what I can tell the 
problem could be the VFD as Gene and Jon pointed out.

I'll let you know how it goes when cutting wood again.

Thanks to all for your help! :)

El dom, 5 mar 2023 a las 18:11, gene heskett ()
escribió:

> On 3/5/23 12:59, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote:
> > By the way, one subtle thing I noticed too that leads me to the 
> > bearings
> as
> > a problem.
> >
> > Normally when the spindle is off and the dust removal vacuum system 
> > is working, the spindle tends to spin by itself because of the 
> > vacuum action on the impeller I installed. This almost never 
> > happened yesterday. So, to sum up: I was able to free turn the 
> > spindle by hand at all times, but the vacuum was not always able to 
> > make it spin the impeller and if it did it wasn't nearly as fast as 
> > days before. This is what makes me suspect about the bearings. Also, 
> > almost all the problems I experienced yesterday were with cutting 
> > forces involved, never with the spindle turning free. Could
> it
> > be that the extra heat and torque that's building up because of a 
> > damaged bearing is what's making the VFD triggering for overcurrent?
> >
> > What puzzles me still is when the spindle was too hot and with no 
> > load
> the
> > VFD only whined and couldn't make the spindle turn. This, as Jon 
> > pointed out, recovered on its own a few minutes later.
> >
> > I'll be there doing some tests in a few hours so I'll let you know 
> > if I
> can
> > note anything new.
> >
> > Again a lot of thanks to you guys for being so kind and helpful! :)
> >
> > El sáb, 4 mar 2023 a las 15:51, Leonardo Marsaglia (<
> ldmarsag...@gmail.com>)
> > escribió:
> >
> >> Hi guys.
> >>
> >> Sorry for the OT but I'm having a strange behavior with my spindle 
> >> and
> I'm
> >> a little worried.
> >>
> >> The problem I had today for the first time is the spindle was 
> >> getting really hot and started to slip (you could hear the 
> >> frequency from the inverter was on spot but the rotor sometimes 
> >> wasn't even turning).After
> a
> >> few seconds of slipping the VFD triggered the over current alarm 
> >> and the spindle was stopped. Once the the spindle cooled down it 
> >> worked
> perfectly.
> >> This never happened before but also I must clarify that today the
> ambient
> >> temperature reached 40⁰C and I'm sure that under that roof where 
> >> the
> router
> >> is placed there were 45⁰C so I suspect this has something to do 
> >> with the problem.
> >>
> >> The spindle is rated 11kw of max power output and is air cooled. It 
> >> has
> a
> >> built in fan motor so it doesn't rely on spindle speed for cooling. 
> >> It always gets warm (there are several labels on the spindle’s body 
> >> for caution because of the heat) but nothing like today.
> >>
> >> Could this be normal because of the extremely hot days I'm having here?
> >> Should I think about changing bearings or even rewind the motor? 
> >> I've
>

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

Well, I tested it for almost an hour with no load at 15000 RPM and the
temperature settled at 55ºC in the bottom side where the bearings for the
tool holder are, and almost 65º in the body part where the stator is.
According to one of the Chinese suppliers of these spindles, 75ºC it's a
pretty common working temperature. I'm still waiting for a detailed answer
from the factory. This time, the VFD worked fine, no whining with no rotor
spin. Now I need to cut some wood while monitoring the temperature during
the process and hope the temperature doesn't go too high.

Anyway, I'm looking for new VFD drives just in case. From what I can tell
the problem could be the VFD as Gene and Jon pointed out.

I'll let you know how it goes when cutting wood again.

Thanks to all for your help! :)

El dom, 5 mar 2023 a las 18:11, gene heskett ()
escribió:

> On 3/5/23 12:59, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote:
> > By the way, one subtle thing I noticed too that leads me to the bearings
> as
> > a problem.
> >
> > Normally when the spindle is off and the dust removal vacuum system is
> > working, the spindle tends to spin by itself because of the vacuum action
> > on the impeller I installed. This almost never happened yesterday. So, to
> > sum up: I was able to free turn the spindle by hand at all times, but the
> > vacuum was not always able to make it spin the impeller and if it did it
> > wasn't nearly as fast as days before. This is what makes me suspect about
> > the bearings. Also, almost all the problems I experienced yesterday were
> > with cutting forces involved, never with the spindle turning free. Could
> it
> > be that the extra heat and torque that's building up because of a damaged
> > bearing is what's making the VFD triggering for overcurrent?
> >
> > What puzzles me still is when the spindle was too hot and with no load
> the
> > VFD only whined and couldn't make the spindle turn. This, as Jon pointed
> > out, recovered on its own a few minutes later.
> >
> > I'll be there doing some tests in a few hours so I'll let you know if I
> can
> > note anything new.
> >
> > Again a lot of thanks to you guys for being so kind and helpful! :)
> >
> > El sáb, 4 mar 2023 a las 15:51, Leonardo Marsaglia (<
> ldmarsag...@gmail.com>)
> > escribió:
> >
> >> Hi guys.
> >>
> >> Sorry for the OT but I'm having a strange behavior with my spindle and
> I'm
> >> a little worried.
> >>
> >> The problem I had today for the first time is the spindle was getting
> >> really hot and started to slip (you could hear the frequency from the
> >> inverter was on spot but the rotor sometimes wasn't even turning).After
> a
> >> few seconds of slipping the VFD triggered the over current alarm and the
> >> spindle was stopped. Once the the spindle cooled down it worked
> perfectly.
> >> This never happened before but also I must clarify that today the
> ambient
> >> temperature reached 40⁰C and I'm sure that under that roof where the
> router
> >> is placed there were 45⁰C so I suspect this has something to do with the
> >> problem.
> >>
> >> The spindle is rated 11kw of max power output and is air cooled. It has
> a
> >> built in fan motor so it doesn't rely on spindle speed for cooling. It
> >> always gets warm (there are several labels on the spindle’s body for
> >> caution because of the heat) but nothing like today.
> >>
> >> Could this be normal because of the extremely hot days I'm having here?
> >> Should I think about changing bearings or even rewind the motor? I've
> only
> >> had the over current alarms when the spindle was too hot.
> >>
> >> I will be really thankful if you can share your thoughts about this.
>
> I think I'd want to look at the solder joints on the big capacitors in
> the vfd, keeping in mind that they can hold quite a charge for quite a
> while when turned off, and that is definitely a lethal voltage. When I
> said look, I'm looking with an old camera lens for a magnifying glass,
> checking for hairline cracks in the solder, particularly at the edge of
> the solder puddle where the copper foil begins, that is a favorite place
> for some seemingly crazy thermal effects. And you can't just scrape it
> down to clean copper & bridge it with solder, you must bridge the crack
> with a piece of suitable gauge copper wire when patching such. And for
> future crack development protection, a 2% silver bearing solder is much
> stronger than the usual eutectic mix.
>
> Same inspection comments apply to the semi's soldered joints, heat sinks
> can exert joint breaking forces as they heat.  I have a couple of old
> 16mm projector lenses that get me up close and personal views. An rch
> looks like a saw log to them.
> >>
> >> Thanks for your help as always!
> >>
> >> Leonardo.
> >>
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of 

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[gene heskett]

On 3/5/23 12:59, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote:

By the way, one subtle thing I noticed too that leads me to the bearings as
a problem.

Normally when the spindle is off and the dust removal vacuum system is
working, the spindle tends to spin by itself because of the vacuum action
on the impeller I installed. This almost never happened yesterday. So, to
sum up: I was able to free turn the spindle by hand at all times, but the
vacuum was not always able to make it spin the impeller and if it did it
wasn't nearly as fast as days before. This is what makes me suspect about
the bearings. Also, almost all the problems I experienced yesterday were
with cutting forces involved, never with the spindle turning free. Could it
be that the extra heat and torque that's building up because of a damaged
bearing is what's making the VFD triggering for overcurrent?

What puzzles me still is when the spindle was too hot and with no load the
VFD only whined and couldn't make the spindle turn. This, as Jon pointed
out, recovered on its own a few minutes later.

I'll be there doing some tests in a few hours so I'll let you know if I can
note anything new.

Again a lot of thanks to you guys for being so kind and helpful! :)

El sáb, 4 mar 2023 a las 15:51, Leonardo Marsaglia ()
escribió:


Hi guys.

Sorry for the OT but I'm having a strange behavior with my spindle and I'm
a little worried.

The problem I had today for the first time is the spindle was getting
really hot and started to slip (you could hear the frequency from the
inverter was on spot but the rotor sometimes wasn't even turning).After a
few seconds of slipping the VFD triggered the over current alarm and the
spindle was stopped. Once the the spindle cooled down it worked perfectly.
This never happened before but also I must clarify that today the ambient
temperature reached 40⁰C and I'm sure that under that roof where the router
is placed there were 45⁰C so I suspect this has something to do with the
problem.

The spindle is rated 11kw of max power output and is air cooled. It has a
built in fan motor so it doesn't rely on spindle speed for cooling. It
always gets warm (there are several labels on the spindle’s body for
caution because of the heat) but nothing like today.

Could this be normal because of the extremely hot days I'm having here?
Should I think about changing bearings or even rewind the motor? I've only
had the over current alarms when the spindle was too hot.

I will be really thankful if you can share your thoughts about this.


I think I'd want to look at the solder joints on the big capacitors in 
the vfd, keeping in mind that they can hold quite a charge for quite a 
while when turned off, and that is definitely a lethal voltage. When I 
said look, I'm looking with an old camera lens for a magnifying glass, 
checking for hairline cracks in the solder, particularly at the edge of 
the solder puddle where the copper foil begins, that is a favorite place 
for some seemingly crazy thermal effects. And you can't just scrape it 
down to clean copper & bridge it with solder, you must bridge the crack 
with a piece of suitable gauge copper wire when patching such. And for 
future crack development protection, a 2% silver bearing solder is much 
stronger than the usual eutectic mix.


Same inspection comments apply to the semi's soldered joints, heat sinks 
can exert joint breaking forces as they heat.  I have a couple of old 
16mm projector lenses that get me up close and personal views. An rch 
looks like a saw log to them.


Thanks for your help as always!

Leonardo.



___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 



___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

By the way, the spindle also is ready for ATC so it has a pneumatic puller.
I'm going to take a look at that today because when you activate the
release of the tool the spindle gets blocked until you have the puller
working again. I'm suspecting maybe that's causing extra friction because
it's not recovering completely. Or maybe the solenoid valve is not doing
its job right. In any case, that could cause more friction and even though
I can rotate it by hand it's evident that it's not as free as usual because
of the vacuum action on the impeller I mentioned earlier.

El dom, 5 mar 2023 a las 14:59, Leonardo Marsaglia ()
escribió:

> By the way, one subtle thing I noticed too that leads me to the bearings
> as a problem.
>
> Normally when the spindle is off and the dust removal vacuum system is
> working, the spindle tends to spin by itself because of the vacuum action
> on the impeller I installed. This almost never happened yesterday. So, to
> sum up: I was able to free turn the spindle by hand at all times, but the
> vacuum was not always able to make it spin the impeller and if it did it
> wasn't nearly as fast as days before. This is what makes me suspect about
> the bearings. Also, almost all the problems I experienced yesterday were
> with cutting forces involved, never with the spindle turning free. Could it
> be that the extra heat and torque that's building up because of a damaged
> bearing is what's making the VFD triggering for overcurrent?
>
> What puzzles me still is when the spindle was too hot and with no load the
> VFD only whined and couldn't make the spindle turn. This, as Jon pointed
> out, recovered on its own a few minutes later.
>
> I'll be there doing some tests in a few hours so I'll let you know if I
> can note anything new.
>
> Again a lot of thanks to you guys for being so kind and helpful! :)
>
> El sáb, 4 mar 2023 a las 15:51, Leonardo Marsaglia ()
> escribió:
>
>> Hi guys.
>>
>> Sorry for the OT but I'm having a strange behavior with my spindle and
>> I'm a little worried.
>>
>> The problem I had today for the first time is the spindle was getting
>> really hot and started to slip (you could hear the frequency from the
>> inverter was on spot but the rotor sometimes wasn't even turning).After a
>> few seconds of slipping the VFD triggered the over current alarm and the
>> spindle was stopped. Once the the spindle cooled down it worked perfectly.
>> This never happened before but also I must clarify that today the ambient
>> temperature reached 40⁰C and I'm sure that under that roof where the router
>> is placed there were 45⁰C so I suspect this has something to do with the
>> problem.
>>
>> The spindle is rated 11kw of max power output and is air cooled. It has a
>> built in fan motor so it doesn't rely on spindle speed for cooling. It
>> always gets warm (there are several labels on the spindle’s body for
>> caution because of the heat) but nothing like today.
>>
>> Could this be normal because of the extremely hot days I'm having here?
>> Should I think about changing bearings or even rewind the motor? I've only
>> had the over current alarms when the spindle was too hot.
>>
>> I will be really thankful if you can share your thoughts about this.
>>
>> Thanks for your help as always!
>>
>> Leonardo.
>>
>

___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

By the way, one subtle thing I noticed too that leads me to the bearings as
a problem.

Normally when the spindle is off and the dust removal vacuum system is
working, the spindle tends to spin by itself because of the vacuum action
on the impeller I installed. This almost never happened yesterday. So, to
sum up: I was able to free turn the spindle by hand at all times, but the
vacuum was not always able to make it spin the impeller and if it did it
wasn't nearly as fast as days before. This is what makes me suspect about
the bearings. Also, almost all the problems I experienced yesterday were
with cutting forces involved, never with the spindle turning free. Could it
be that the extra heat and torque that's building up because of a damaged
bearing is what's making the VFD triggering for overcurrent?

What puzzles me still is when the spindle was too hot and with no load the
VFD only whined and couldn't make the spindle turn. This, as Jon pointed
out, recovered on its own a few minutes later.

I'll be there doing some tests in a few hours so I'll let you know if I can
note anything new.

Again a lot of thanks to you guys for being so kind and helpful! :)

El sáb, 4 mar 2023 a las 15:51, Leonardo Marsaglia ()
escribió:

> Hi guys.
>
> Sorry for the OT but I'm having a strange behavior with my spindle and I'm
> a little worried.
>
> The problem I had today for the first time is the spindle was getting
> really hot and started to slip (you could hear the frequency from the
> inverter was on spot but the rotor sometimes wasn't even turning).After a
> few seconds of slipping the VFD triggered the over current alarm and the
> spindle was stopped. Once the the spindle cooled down it worked perfectly.
> This never happened before but also I must clarify that today the ambient
> temperature reached 40⁰C and I'm sure that under that roof where the router
> is placed there were 45⁰C so I suspect this has something to do with the
> problem.
>
> The spindle is rated 11kw of max power output and is air cooled. It has a
> built in fan motor so it doesn't rely on spindle speed for cooling. It
> always gets warm (there are several labels on the spindle’s body for
> caution because of the heat) but nothing like today.
>
> Could this be normal because of the extremely hot days I'm having here?
> Should I think about changing bearings or even rewind the motor? I've only
> had the over current alarms when the spindle was too hot.
>
> I will be really thankful if you can share your thoughts about this.
>
> Thanks for your help as always!
>
> Leonardo.
>

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Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

Hi Gregg,

Insulating the whole place and getting it to cool would be indeed cool lol.
But the problem is we already had hot days and this didn't happen.
Yesterday was one of the worst days but it looks like something else.

I was thinking about checking the spindle rotation at slow speed for a few
seconds and put a piezoelectric mic next to it to hear if maybe there are
bumps or something within the bearings. Maybe it's so subtle that it only
makes the whole unit overheat when at full speed cutting for several
minutes. Because this doesn't seem to happen with no load.

I'll leave it spinning with no load for 20 minutes today to see how it
goes. Because the problem only happens when cutting from what I experienced
yesterday. But since this all started yesterday I can't tell for sure.

Thank you!



El dom, 5 mar 2023 a las 6:50, Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users (<
emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>) escribió:

> You could try a micro compressor refrigeration system to cool the air that
> the spindle cooling fan takes in.
> Here's a unit for $149.78 USD. Have to supply your own evaporator coil.
> https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804487578057.html
>
> This one is less compact but includes a cooling coil.
> https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256802213783912.html
>
> Could put the coil into a tank of antifreeze then pump antifreeze through
> a radiator over the air cooling fan inlet.
>
> Or to be much more comfortable overall, insulate the heck out of your shop
> and install a really nice mini-split heat pump. Big shop? Get a mini split
> that supports two or more air handlers.
>
>
> I've heard that these tiny refrigeration compressors were originally
> designed for a US military project that got canceled. Having already done
> the R to a production ready state, the companies which submitted designs
> put them into production for civilian use. Now there are many companies
> making portable refrigerator / coolers that can run off battery power for
> longer than the thermo-electric coolers that have been around since the
> 1970's.
>
>
> On Saturday, March 4, 2023 at 11:54:31 AM MST, Leonardo Marsaglia <
> ldmarsag...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi guys.
>
> Sorry for the OT but I'm having a strange behavior with my spindle and I'm
> a little worried.
>
> The problem I had today for the first time is the spindle was getting
> really hot and started to slip (you could hear the frequency from the
> inverter was on spot but the rotor sometimes wasn't even turning).After a
> few seconds of slipping the VFD triggered the over current alarm and the
> spindle was stopped. Once the the spindle cooled down it worked perfectly.
> This never happened before but also I must clarify that today the ambient
> temperature reached 40⁰C and I'm sure that under that roof where the router
> is placed there were 45⁰C so I suspect this has something to do with the
> problem.
>
> The spindle is rated 11kw of max power output and is air cooled. It has a
> built in fan motor so it doesn't rely on spindle speed for cooling. It
> always gets warm (there are several labels on the spindle’s body for
> caution because of the heat) but nothing like today.
>
> Could this be normal because of the extremely hot days I'm having here?
> Should I think about changing bearings or even rewind the motor? I've only
> had the over current alarms when the spindle was too hot.
>
> I will be really thankful if you can share your thoughts about this.
>
> Thanks for your help as always!
>
> Leonardo.
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>

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Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users]

You could try a micro compressor refrigeration system to cool the air that the 
spindle cooling fan takes in.
Here's a unit for $149.78 USD. Have to supply your own evaporator coil.
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804487578057.html

This one is less compact but includes a cooling coil.
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256802213783912.html

Could put the coil into a tank of antifreeze then pump antifreeze through a 
radiator over the air cooling fan inlet.

Or to be much more comfortable overall, insulate the heck out of your shop and 
install a really nice mini-split heat pump. Big shop? Get a mini split that 
supports two or more air handlers.


I've heard that these tiny refrigeration compressors were originally designed 
for a US military project that got canceled. Having already done the R to a 
production ready state, the companies which submitted designs put them into 
production for civilian use. Now there are many companies making portable 
refrigerator / coolers that can run off battery power for longer than the 
thermo-electric coolers that have been around since the 1970's.


On Saturday, March 4, 2023 at 11:54:31 AM MST, Leonardo Marsaglia 
 wrote: 

Hi guys.

Sorry for the OT but I'm having a strange behavior with my spindle and I'm
a little worried.

The problem I had today for the first time is the spindle was getting
really hot and started to slip (you could hear the frequency from the
inverter was on spot but the rotor sometimes wasn't even turning).After a
few seconds of slipping the VFD triggered the over current alarm and the
spindle was stopped. Once the the spindle cooled down it worked perfectly.
This never happened before but also I must clarify that today the ambient
temperature reached 40⁰C and I'm sure that under that roof where the router
is placed there were 45⁰C so I suspect this has something to do with the
problem.

The spindle is rated 11kw of max power output and is air cooled. It has a
built in fan motor so it doesn't rely on spindle speed for cooling. It
always gets warm (there are several labels on the spindle’s body for
caution because of the heat) but nothing like today.

Could this be normal because of the extremely hot days I'm having here?
Should I think about changing bearings or even rewind the motor? I've only
had the over current alarms when the spindle was too hot.

I will be really thankful if you can share your thoughts about this.

Thanks for your help as always!

Leonardo.


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Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[gene heskett]

On 3/4/23 19:10, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote:


Yup, I agree with Gene, if the motor was not spinning AT
ALL, but the VFD or motor was making a whining sound, it may
mean the VFD was only powering one phase winding.

That would indicate a VFD failure.  Did you unplug anything
while waiting for it to cool?  Maybe there was a bad
connection. Anyway, either a failed winding or a failed VFD
would be fairly unlikely to  just recover on its own, so
that is odd.  I did have some brushless servo drives on my
pick and place machine give crazy failures but then start
working OK after a power cycle. Eventually, they failed
outright.  My guessed diagnosis was the firmware ROM was
going out, and eventually it caused a power on self test
lockout.



Hi Jon,

I didn't unplug any wire but I did cut off power to the VFD to see if
anything changed. I also checked all the wiring and nothing was loose
neither on the VFD side nor the spindle side. Could it be coincidence that
this behaviour seemed to be solved when I let the spindle cool down?

By the way, I forgot to mention. I usually attach some 3d printed impellers
to my collet nut to extract more powder when I machine MDF. Today one of
those just destroyed itself. I wasn't worried about that because it was no
big deal today, It happened before and in a more spectacular way than
today, but now I'm thinking the inertia of the impellers blowing into
pieces could have damaged a bearing? A snapped carbide bit could do this
too? I must point out that all this impeller setup is enclosed with a thick
plastic suction cover so when the impeller breaks it doesn't fly all over
the place.

But this raises the question. Could a bearing be a little bit damaged that
it's not that noticeable when cold and I spin it by hand, but when it
starts to work it gets really hot and adds up more torque to the motor
until the VFD starts to slip and eventually fault itself? I'll check
tomorrow if I can notice a substantial difference between hot and cold
spindle when spinning it by hand because I don't remember it.

I could scope the output of the VFD. I only have two channels available so
is a PITA, but I can try and wait for something strange to happen and see
if the signal is the problem.

I attached a picture of the spindle setup so you can see what I'm doing.
This worked well for months so I'm little lost on where I can start to
track the problem.

El sáb, 4 mar 2023 a las 20:35, Jon Elson ()
escribió:


On 3/4/23 14:08, gene heskett wrote:

Yup, I agree with Gene, if the motor was not spinning AT
ALL, but the VFD or motor was making a whining sound, it may
mean the VFD was only powering one phase winding.

That would indicate a VFD failure.  Did you unplug anything
while waiting for it to cool?  Maybe there was a bad
connection. Anyway, either a failed winding or a failed VFD
would be fairly unlikely to  just recover on its own, so
that is odd.  I did have some brushless servo drives on my
pick and place machine give crazy failures but then start
working OK after a power cycle. Eventually, they failed
outright.  My guessed diagnosis was the firmware ROM was
going out, and eventually it caused a power on self test
lockout.

Jon

Don't leave the probes connected more that a very few seconds, that 380 
volts is well above the rating of the resistors used in 10x utility 
probes. I destroyed several genuine tek probes leaving them hooked up 
watching for intermittents at working voltages below 250. I did 
eventually pin the problem down to a 1 uf goodall brand capacitor that 
was intermittently killing the video in an RCA TT25DL tv transmitter. I 
wasn't so "good" after "all" :o)>


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[gene heskett]

On 3/4/23 18:19, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote:

Hi Gene, hope your doing well!


As well as can be expected for an 88 yo diabetic with a chest full of 
parts.  I bought a couple t-shirts last fall that lie a lot, says "born 
in the thirties, original and unrestored, some parts still working"



IMO and unless the armature of that motor is some sort of a ferrite
compound, that temp s/n should not be a problem. Most motors can  handle
temps too hot to lay your hand on them unless they are on their way out
in some sort of shorted windings failure mode. Most motor iron is grain
oriented silicon steel since about the end of WW-II, and that is not one
on its failure modes.



Indeed, from my experience with normal induction motors the temperature
this spindle reached shouldn't be a problem. I didn't measure it with a
thermometer but I felt  it was somewhere in the 65ºC range. But since this
is a high frequency spindle motor and materials are a little different I'm
a little bit lost here.




The reason I mention ferrites is because there are ferrites that have a
"curie point" temp below 100C. But I've never heard of the ferrites
being used in motor armatures, just high performance transformer cores.
But that does bring up the possibility that the problem is actually the
vfd since its switching transformer is a prime candidate to use such a
ferrite compound. But that failure is in my experience, permanent
because if it passes the curie temp while energized, there is no
recovery short of returning the core to Arnold to run it thru their heat
treatment again to re-establish its magnetic properties.



Interesting, I didn't know they used materials with such a low curie point.

Well, HP did, and it hurt them bad, I guess their engineers didn't get 
all the memo's. ;o)>



In both of those failures, encountered in H.P. brand power supplies at
the tv station, it was as if the core was replaced by air, and it
happened at such a low temp that the green paint on the core was not
discolored.

I'm just guessing about your setup, my only high rpm spindle is the 24k
rev water cooled one I replaced with a better one on my 6040 mill, where
the water tank is about 4 gallons and a 3 day job making a hard maple
screw only gets the tank up to 36C in my air conditioned
garage/workshop.  Its insulated, 6" walls full of cocoon, and a foot of
it on the ceiling, with a measly 5k btu window AC to cool the place.

It sounds as if the motor is on its way out, but I'd not be totally
surprised to find the vfd was somehow being a problem.  Measuring the
motor inductance, looking for not more than a 5% difference between the
three coils would be my first step. Next would be suitable light bulbs
on the vfd. I'd say look at its output with a scope, but that voltage
will probably destroy the scopes usual 10x probes, and high voltage 100x
probes are mail order far away.

Whats your normal wall voltage?



I have 380 volts but I didn't had the chance to measure it today. I'll do
it tomorrow. I wasn't worried about that because I assume the VFD would
trigger an alarm in case of a voltage drop or missing phase. In fact all
the servo motors are working ok. I just really hope this is a bearing
problem, although I will have to import them anyway.


To where these days?

Take care and stay well yourself.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

>
> Yup, I agree with Gene, if the motor was not spinning AT
> ALL, but the VFD or motor was making a whining sound, it may
> mean the VFD was only powering one phase winding.
>
> That would indicate a VFD failure.  Did you unplug anything
> while waiting for it to cool?  Maybe there was a bad
> connection. Anyway, either a failed winding or a failed VFD
> would be fairly unlikely to  just recover on its own, so
> that is odd.  I did have some brushless servo drives on my
> pick and place machine give crazy failures but then start
> working OK after a power cycle. Eventually, they failed
> outright.  My guessed diagnosis was the firmware ROM was
> going out, and eventually it caused a power on self test
> lockout.
>

Hi Jon,

I didn't unplug any wire but I did cut off power to the VFD to see if
anything changed. I also checked all the wiring and nothing was loose
neither on the VFD side nor the spindle side. Could it be coincidence that
this behaviour seemed to be solved when I let the spindle cool down?

By the way, I forgot to mention. I usually attach some 3d printed impellers
to my collet nut to extract more powder when I machine MDF. Today one of
those just destroyed itself. I wasn't worried about that because it was no
big deal today, It happened before and in a more spectacular way than
today, but now I'm thinking the inertia of the impellers blowing into
pieces could have damaged a bearing? A snapped carbide bit could do this
too? I must point out that all this impeller setup is enclosed with a thick
plastic suction cover so when the impeller breaks it doesn't fly all over
the place.

But this raises the question. Could a bearing be a little bit damaged that
it's not that noticeable when cold and I spin it by hand, but when it
starts to work it gets really hot and adds up more torque to the motor
until the VFD starts to slip and eventually fault itself? I'll check
tomorrow if I can notice a substantial difference between hot and cold
spindle when spinning it by hand because I don't remember it.

I could scope the output of the VFD. I only have two channels available so
is a PITA, but I can try and wait for something strange to happen and see
if the signal is the problem.

I attached a picture of the spindle setup so you can see what I'm doing.
This worked well for months so I'm little lost on where I can start to
track the problem.

El sáb, 4 mar 2023 a las 20:35, Jon Elson ()
escribió:

> On 3/4/23 14:08, gene heskett wrote:
>
> Yup, I agree with Gene, if the motor was not spinning AT
> ALL, but the VFD or motor was making a whining sound, it may
> mean the VFD was only powering one phase winding.
>
> That would indicate a VFD failure.  Did you unplug anything
> while waiting for it to cool?  Maybe there was a bad
> connection. Anyway, either a failed winding or a failed VFD
> would be fairly unlikely to  just recover on its own, so
> that is odd.  I did have some brushless servo drives on my
> pick and place machine give crazy failures but then start
> working OK after a power cycle. Eventually, they failed
> outright.  My guessed diagnosis was the firmware ROM was
> going out, and eventually it caused a power on self test
> lockout.
>
> Jon
>
>
>
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>
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Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Jon Elson]

On 3/4/23 14:08, gene heskett wrote:

Yup, I agree with Gene, if the motor was not spinning AT 
ALL, but the VFD or motor was making a whining sound, it may 
mean the VFD was only powering one phase winding.


That would indicate a VFD failure.  Did you unplug anything 
while waiting for it to cool?  Maybe there was a bad 
connection. Anyway, either a failed winding or a failed VFD 
would be fairly unlikely to  just recover on its own, so 
that is odd.  I did have some brushless servo drives on my 
pick and place machine give crazy failures but then start 
working OK after a power cycle. Eventually, they failed 
outright.  My guessed diagnosis was the firmware ROM was 
going out, and eventually it caused a power on self test 
lockout.


Jon



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Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

Sorry I didn't specify the voltage well. It's three phase 380 volts. The
VFD is fed directly with the 380 volts and no neutral.

El sáb, 4 mar 2023 a las 20:19, Leonardo Marsaglia ()
escribió:

> Hi Gene, hope your doing well!
>
>
>> IMO and unless the armature of that motor is some sort of a ferrite
>> compound, that temp s/n should not be a problem. Most motors can  handle
>> temps too hot to lay your hand on them unless they are on their way out
>> in some sort of shorted windings failure mode. Most motor iron is grain
>> oriented silicon steel since about the end of WW-II, and that is not one
>> on its failure modes.
>>
>
> Indeed, from my experience with normal induction motors the temperature
> this spindle reached shouldn't be a problem. I didn't measure it with a
> thermometer but I felt  it was somewhere in the 65ºC range. But since this
> is a high frequency spindle motor and materials are a little different I'm
> a little bit lost here.
>
>
>
>> The reason I mention ferrites is because there are ferrites that have a
>> "curie point" temp below 100C. But I've never heard of the ferrites
>> being used in motor armatures, just high performance transformer cores.
>> But that does bring up the possibility that the problem is actually the
>> vfd since its switching transformer is a prime candidate to use such a
>> ferrite compound. But that failure is in my experience, permanent
>> because if it passes the curie temp while energized, there is no
>> recovery short of returning the core to Arnold to run it thru their heat
>> treatment again to re-establish its magnetic properties.
>>
>
> Interesting, I didn't know they used materials with such a low curie
> point.
>
>
>> In both of those failures, encountered in H.P. brand power supplies at
>> the tv station, it was as if the core was replaced by air, and it
>> happened at such a low temp that the green paint on the core was not
>> discolored.
>>
>> I'm just guessing about your setup, my only high rpm spindle is the 24k
>> rev water cooled one I replaced with a better one on my 6040 mill, where
>> the water tank is about 4 gallons and a 3 day job making a hard maple
>> screw only gets the tank up to 36C in my air conditioned
>> garage/workshop.  Its insulated, 6" walls full of cocoon, and a foot of
>> it on the ceiling, with a measly 5k btu window AC to cool the place.
>>
>> It sounds as if the motor is on its way out, but I'd not be totally
>> surprised to find the vfd was somehow being a problem.  Measuring the
>> motor inductance, looking for not more than a 5% difference between the
>> three coils would be my first step. Next would be suitable light bulbs
>> on the vfd. I'd say look at its output with a scope, but that voltage
>> will probably destroy the scopes usual 10x probes, and high voltage 100x
>> probes are mail order far away.
>>
>> Whats your normal wall voltage?
>>
>
> I have 380 volts but I didn't had the chance to measure it today. I'll do
> it tomorrow. I wasn't worried about that because I assume the VFD would
> trigger an alarm in case of a voltage drop or missing phase. In fact all
> the servo motors are working ok. I just really hope this is a bearing
> problem, although I will have to import them anyway.
>
>
>
> El sáb, 4 mar 2023 a las 17:12, gene heskett ()
> escribió:
>
>> On 3/4/23 13:53, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote:
>> > Hi guys.
>> >
>> > Sorry for the OT but I'm having a strange behavior with my spindle and
>> I'm
>> > a little worried.
>> >
>> > The problem I had today for the first time is the spindle was getting
>> > really hot and started to slip (you could hear the frequency from the
>> > inverter was on spot but the rotor sometimes wasn't even turning).After
>> a
>> > few seconds of slipping the VFD triggered the over current alarm and the
>> > spindle was stopped. Once the the spindle cooled down it worked
>> perfectly.
>> > This never happened before but also I must clarify that today the
>> ambient
>> > temperature reached 40⁰C and I'm sure that under that roof where the
>> router
>> > is placed there were 45⁰C so I suspect this has something to do with the
>> > problem.
>> >
>>
>> IMO and unless the armature of that motor is some sort of a ferrite
>> compound, that temp s/n should not be a problem. Most motors can  handle
>> temps too hot to lay your hand on them unless they are on their way out
>> in some sort of shorted windings failure mode. Most motor iron is grain
>> oriented silicon steel since about the end of WW-II, and that is not one
>> on its failure modes.
>>
>> The reason I mention ferrites is because there are ferrites that have a
>> "curie point" temp below 100C. But I've never heard of the ferrites
>> being used in motor armatures, just high performance transformer cores.
>> But that does bring up the possibility that the problem is actually the
>> vfd since its switching transformer is a prime candidate to use such a
>> ferrite compound. But that failure is in my experience, permanent
>> because if 

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

Hi Gene, hope your doing well!


> IMO and unless the armature of that motor is some sort of a ferrite
> compound, that temp s/n should not be a problem. Most motors can  handle
> temps too hot to lay your hand on them unless they are on their way out
> in some sort of shorted windings failure mode. Most motor iron is grain
> oriented silicon steel since about the end of WW-II, and that is not one
> on its failure modes.
>

Indeed, from my experience with normal induction motors the temperature
this spindle reached shouldn't be a problem. I didn't measure it with a
thermometer but I felt  it was somewhere in the 65ºC range. But since this
is a high frequency spindle motor and materials are a little different I'm
a little bit lost here.



> The reason I mention ferrites is because there are ferrites that have a
> "curie point" temp below 100C. But I've never heard of the ferrites
> being used in motor armatures, just high performance transformer cores.
> But that does bring up the possibility that the problem is actually the
> vfd since its switching transformer is a prime candidate to use such a
> ferrite compound. But that failure is in my experience, permanent
> because if it passes the curie temp while energized, there is no
> recovery short of returning the core to Arnold to run it thru their heat
> treatment again to re-establish its magnetic properties.
>

Interesting, I didn't know they used materials with such a low curie point.


> In both of those failures, encountered in H.P. brand power supplies at
> the tv station, it was as if the core was replaced by air, and it
> happened at such a low temp that the green paint on the core was not
> discolored.
>
> I'm just guessing about your setup, my only high rpm spindle is the 24k
> rev water cooled one I replaced with a better one on my 6040 mill, where
> the water tank is about 4 gallons and a 3 day job making a hard maple
> screw only gets the tank up to 36C in my air conditioned
> garage/workshop.  Its insulated, 6" walls full of cocoon, and a foot of
> it on the ceiling, with a measly 5k btu window AC to cool the place.
>
> It sounds as if the motor is on its way out, but I'd not be totally
> surprised to find the vfd was somehow being a problem.  Measuring the
> motor inductance, looking for not more than a 5% difference between the
> three coils would be my first step. Next would be suitable light bulbs
> on the vfd. I'd say look at its output with a scope, but that voltage
> will probably destroy the scopes usual 10x probes, and high voltage 100x
> probes are mail order far away.
>
> Whats your normal wall voltage?
>

I have 380 volts but I didn't had the chance to measure it today. I'll do
it tomorrow. I wasn't worried about that because I assume the VFD would
trigger an alarm in case of a voltage drop or missing phase. In fact all
the servo motors are working ok. I just really hope this is a bearing
problem, although I will have to import them anyway.



El sáb, 4 mar 2023 a las 17:12, gene heskett ()
escribió:

> On 3/4/23 13:53, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote:
> > Hi guys.
> >
> > Sorry for the OT but I'm having a strange behavior with my spindle and
> I'm
> > a little worried.
> >
> > The problem I had today for the first time is the spindle was getting
> > really hot and started to slip (you could hear the frequency from the
> > inverter was on spot but the rotor sometimes wasn't even turning).After a
> > few seconds of slipping the VFD triggered the over current alarm and the
> > spindle was stopped. Once the the spindle cooled down it worked
> perfectly.
> > This never happened before but also I must clarify that today the ambient
> > temperature reached 40⁰C and I'm sure that under that roof where the
> router
> > is placed there were 45⁰C so I suspect this has something to do with the
> > problem.
> >
>
> IMO and unless the armature of that motor is some sort of a ferrite
> compound, that temp s/n should not be a problem. Most motors can  handle
> temps too hot to lay your hand on them unless they are on their way out
> in some sort of shorted windings failure mode. Most motor iron is grain
> oriented silicon steel since about the end of WW-II, and that is not one
> on its failure modes.
>
> The reason I mention ferrites is because there are ferrites that have a
> "curie point" temp below 100C. But I've never heard of the ferrites
> being used in motor armatures, just high performance transformer cores.
> But that does bring up the possibility that the problem is actually the
> vfd since its switching transformer is a prime candidate to use such a
> ferrite compound. But that failure is in my experience, permanent
> because if it passes the curie temp while energized, there is no
> recovery short of returning the core to Arnold to run it thru their heat
> treatment again to re-establish its magnetic properties.
>
> In both of those failures, encountered in H.P. brand power supplies at
> the tv station, it was as if the core was replaced 

Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[Andy Pugh]

> On 4 Mar 2023, at 18:56, Leonardo Marsaglia  wrote:
> 
> Could this be normal because of the extremely hot days I'm having here?

If the ambient is 15C higher than normal then the spindle will be 15C warmer, 
and that doesn’t feel like it would be enough to cause problems. 
Are the bearings special and expensive, or just generic sealed ball bearings? 



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Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem

[gene heskett]

On 3/4/23 13:53, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote:

Hi guys.

Sorry for the OT but I'm having a strange behavior with my spindle and I'm
a little worried.

The problem I had today for the first time is the spindle was getting
really hot and started to slip (you could hear the frequency from the
inverter was on spot but the rotor sometimes wasn't even turning).After a
few seconds of slipping the VFD triggered the over current alarm and the
spindle was stopped. Once the the spindle cooled down it worked perfectly.
This never happened before but also I must clarify that today the ambient
temperature reached 40⁰C and I'm sure that under that roof where the router
is placed there were 45⁰C so I suspect this has something to do with the
problem.



IMO and unless the armature of that motor is some sort of a ferrite 
compound, that temp s/n should not be a problem. Most motors can  handle 
temps too hot to lay your hand on them unless they are on their way out 
in some sort of shorted windings failure mode. Most motor iron is grain 
oriented silicon steel since about the end of WW-II, and that is not one 
on its failure modes.


The reason I mention ferrites is because there are ferrites that have a 
"curie point" temp below 100C. But I've never heard of the ferrites 
being used in motor armatures, just high performance transformer cores.
But that does bring up the possibility that the problem is actually the 
vfd since its switching transformer is a prime candidate to use such a 
ferrite compound. But that failure is in my experience, permanent 
because if it passes the curie temp while energized, there is no 
recovery short of returning the core to Arnold to run it thru their heat 
treatment again to re-establish its magnetic properties.


In both of those failures, encountered in H.P. brand power supplies at 
the tv station, it was as if the core was replaced by air, and it 
happened at such a low temp that the green paint on the core was not 
discolored.


I'm just guessing about your setup, my only high rpm spindle is the 24k 
rev water cooled one I replaced with a better one on my 6040 mill, where 
the water tank is about 4 gallons and a 3 day job making a hard maple 
screw only gets the tank up to 36C in my air conditioned 
garage/workshop.  Its insulated, 6" walls full of cocoon, and a foot of 
it on the ceiling, with a measly 5k btu window AC to cool the place.


It sounds as if the motor is on its way out, but I'd not be totally 
surprised to find the vfd was somehow being a problem.  Measuring the 
motor inductance, looking for not more than a 5% difference between the 
three coils would be my first step. Next would be suitable light bulbs 
on the vfd. I'd say look at its output with a scope, but that voltage 
will probably destroy the scopes usual 10x probes, and high voltage 100x 
probes are mail order far away.


Whats your normal wall voltage?



The spindle is rated 11kw of max power output and is air cooled. It has a
built in fan motor so it doesn't rely on spindle speed for cooling. It
always gets warm (there are several labels on the spindle’s body for
caution because of the heat) but nothing like today.

Could this be normal because of the extremely hot days I'm having here?
Should I think about changing bearings or even rewind the motor? I've only
had the over current alarms when the spindle was too hot.

I will be really thankful if you can share your thoughts about this.

Thanks for your help as always!

Leonardo.

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Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 



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