Re: [Finale] OT LONG: help with adult student
Christopher wrote: OK, I've had a bunch of feedback on this item, which I thought was simply a humourous way of pointing out that students don't ALWAYS want what they THINK they want. If someone REALLY wants a passage to sound a certain way, more power to him, and I can help him with that. Agreed, within reason. And also agreed that what is conventional should not necessarily be a limiting factor, IF the unconventional has musical validity. I doubt that Stravinsky consulted with a bassoonist before writing that amazing opening solo in flute range! On the other hand, a thorough knowledge of the mechanics can help avoid embarrasment. So far, in the cello book for Guys Dolls, we've found at least one low Bb. There's an orchestrator who missed the class on ranges of stringed instruments! Possible? Sure, if the player's willing to tune down a whole step and the conductor's willing to put up with the sound of his doing so. Likely? No way! John P.S. It's really getting to be a drag to have to paste in the list address for every reply. Did the problems with the new server ever get worked out, and would it be possible to reset for automatic reply to the list? John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT LONG: help with adult student
At 2:00 PM -0500 6/26/02, John Howell wrote: On the other hand, a thorough knowledge of the mechanics can help avoid embarrasment. So far, in the cello book for Guys Dolls, we've found at least one low Bb. There's an orchestrator who missed the class on ranges of stringed instruments! Yes, I know the book. I assumed the original key was a tone (or more) higher, then they had to transpose it for someone new, and the copyist was told Make us a new one a tone lower. These things are put together so incredibly fast that it's easy for something like that to slip through, especially when the job is not supervised by the original person. P.S. It's really getting to be a drag to have to paste in the list address for every reply. Did the problems with the new server ever get worked out, and would it be possible to reset for automatic reply to the list? You can reply to all, which I do in Eudora by holding down the shift key when I reply, then both the list AND the person who sent the message gets a copy. You'll probably read this message twice, but it's more certain if you decide to unsubscribe one day. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT LONG: help with adult student
On 26 Jun 2002, at 14:00, John Howell wrote: P.S. It's really getting to be a drag to have to paste in the list address for every reply. Did the problems with the new server ever get worked out, and would it be possible to reset for automatic reply to the list? One alternative would be to get a more flexible email reader. Mine, Pegasus Mail, lists all the possible email addresses to reply to and allows you to check/uncheck for each reply (retaining the last checked addresses). It's remarkably easy to use. I would assume that other email readers offer similar features. -- David W. Fenton |http://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associates |http://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT LONG: help with adult student
Because of the way copyright laws are set up, the person who worked out those beautiful chords to all those Berlin tunes doesn't get a penny of royalties, as only lyrics and melodies are copyrightable. Yet, IMHO, those songs might not have been the successes that they were without the contribution of the assistant, so wouldn't they be due a bit of spare change? Christopher It is not true that only lyrics and melodies are copyrightable, nor was this true in Berlin's day. A chord in and of itself is indeed not copyrightable, nor is a chord progression that is not part of a piece. The same is true of any other aspect of music held in isolation. A tone row, for example, is not copyrightable (or rather, any copyright in it does not extend to music created using that row)--but a melody comprised of those same 12 notes is. If I write a piece of music, then my copyright in that piece applies to all aspects of it, and if somebody creates a new melody to use with my original chords, they must obtain permission before making use of the combination. Consider a jazz performance of a tin-pan-alley standard. The original melody may never be heard at all, but if (as would normally be the case) I call the thing by its original title, and use the original chord progression, it counts as a performance of the original song, and a royalty is collected by ASCAP or BMI. Irving Berlin's amanuensis was doing what would now be called work made for hire. Regulation of this is much stricter now than it was then, but the basic principle is the same: If I hire someone to compose music for me, then I own the resulting music. Be all which as it may, however, I do not think, based on what I have read, that Berlin needed anybody to compose chords for him. He played everything on his famous transposing keyboard, and the amanuensis simply took down what was played. Doubtless he couldn't *name* many of the chords, or describe their function, but that's no reason at all why he couldn't play them. And why would F# major be an advantage to play in if one were only picking out tunes? If you're not playing chords, then it would make more sense to stick to just the white keys, rather than the black ones. -- Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT LONG: help with adult student
At 08:00 AM 6/22/02 -0700, Linda Worsley wrote: So here's my question: (at last) Faced with this daunting task, what would you do? I've been following this for a few days, because I had a student exactly like this -- very successful in another field (law), motivated, self-starter, etc -- with a great ear, ability to play anything he's heard, and able to write in the styles he loves (mostly 19th century). I tried the traditional routes as you did. He was insistent on doing it his way, and did not understand scoring. He had taught himself entirely using Cakewalk, and could read piano roll style notation (so well that *I* had to learn how to read it). I found a few things that were keys to his lock: 1. I could never give him traditional notation and pretend it was logical. I had to admit that it was only traditional, and like other fields (his), had grown out of a shared body of knowledge. His biggest issue with traditional notation was that it was not spaced correctly (vertically). It is not spaced correctly, but we all get used to accidentals, even though we know they misrepresent the actual position. Piano roll notation doesn't, and so the squashed, irregular nature of notation made him angry. He also found the same with rhythmic notation -- it wasn't ever properly descriptive of the actual timeline. Again, he was right. Also, traditional notation does not include a true timeline of expressions; this was perhaps the most confounding. Where was the notation to indicate precisely how tempo changed? He could do it in Cakewalk -- why not in notation? So the admission (to him, the lawyer) of the illogical and sloppy nature of standard notation was important ... all psychological, but crucial. 2. He had to understand that his decision was to be a composer for people or a composer for electronic devices (sometimes both, but he had to choose one or the other for a given piece). I assured him both were valid, but he had to make the decision. And I gave him a month to think about it -- no lessons, nothing. It wasn't any fun to foresake the income, but it was necessary for him to understand that if he was to go ahead with instruction, he would have to accept as an article of faith that I knew something about both, and he know something about only one. He decided to learn to write for 'real people'. He had to sing his stuff line by line (that was a lesson in itself), and we recorded overdubs so he could feel what singers would struggle with. 3. We worked on what he had already created, and I presented options, always options (exhausting!). We reworked his thick stuff for string quartet. We were still in piano roll notation, as he was fluent in that, and we used notation as a separate learning track. To have him notate his complicated pieces was demeaning. So we worked on small things, new things, in notation. This was *composition* study, so it was supposedly the most important part of his learning. But he could never, ever be humiliated by notational traditions, and his composition had to leap out of what he had done. Tricky. And he rejected *all* textbooks. It had to be one-on-one. That was his style, all personal. (It's also why I had to learn to read piano roll notation -- he expected me to be up to *his* standards in all respects.) 4. We talked over and over about what it meant to work with real people. That meant having him try to work with players, which he found extraordinarily frustrating. He begrudgingly came to understand that player and conductors who didn't want to do his material would do it badly, and he needed to offer a greater reward than payment. That was tough for a guy used to having his own way. So he worked for two years, and ultimately learned enough to work on his own (that's all he wanted) and be able to hand his material to real players. I learned a great deal from teaching him -- most of all that I had to meet his standards before he would respect my instruction. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT LONG: help with adult student
on 6/24/02 2:20 AM, Mark D. Lew at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As far as I'm concerned, the only thing a teacher is good for is helping the students learn how to accomplish what they want, not to tell them that what they want is good or bad. Not long after I started teaching almost 30 years ago, I had a high school age drum student sign on for help in learning a very difficult snare drum solo for Kansas State Music Contest. He had never had any lessons and his skills were extremely modest. I told him that what he was wanting to do was an almost impossible task in light of the time to accomplish it. He replied that he felt he could do anything that he set his mind to; one could accomplish anything if they wanted it badly enough. All of us who teach are familiar with this self-affirmation happy talk, and time proved what my instincts told me: This kid has delusions of adequacy. But my liberal values vetoed my instinctive impulse to tell the kid I couldn't help him, so we muddled through about six weeks of drum lessons. When asked about his lack of practice, he said he wasn't able to practice very much because he had to work too many hours at his part-time job to pay for his brand new kick-ass SUV, but he was just as determined as ever to get this solo learned. Finally, when he had about a week left to go, he told me he wasn't going to take the solo to contest because I hadn't motivated him sufficiently to learn it and that I had failed him as a teacher. (!!) I have since been a lot more direct with students about things like this. When a student's goals are clearly out of line with their abilities and time and desire to practice, I very directly communicate this to them and save us both further aggravation. Perhaps the terms good and bad are a little simplistic, but the idea behind the sentiment is spot-on. Doug ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT LONG: help with adult student
At 10:13 AM -0400 6/24/02, Andrew Stiller wrote: I get that from my students a lot - But it's what I WANT! to which my response usually is, Then DON'T want it, because it's bad! Want something GOOD instead. That usually gets a laugh out of them, because I'm not as tough as that answer makes me sound. But it gets them thinking along other lines... Christopher Throughout this thread I can't help but be constantly reminded of another stubborn corporate CEO who wrote what he wanted instead of what was practical, in a form almost impossible to read and considered impossible to play by the standards of his day. He occasionally hired small orchestras to try stuff out for him; they always made a mess of it, of course, and professional musicians told him he was nuts. The editing and performance of his music remain problematic to this day. The only difference--and I admit it's a big one--is that Charles Ives had an undergraduate music degree from Yale. But I confess this whole project of forcing a square peg into a round hole makes me more than a little uncomfortable. -- Andrew Stiller OK, I've had a bunch of feedback on this item, which I thought was simply a humourous way of pointing out that students don't ALWAYS want what they THINK they want. If someone REALLY wants a passage to sound a certain way, more power to him, and I can help him with that. In fact, one of my popular comments is may as well be hanged for a sheep as for a lamb which is to say, if you are going for a certain unusual sound, do it big rather than timidly. But often the student is waving his arms frantically trying to dance without any clue or inspiration, and invokes the But I WANT it that way just to deflect criticism. That's when I call him on it. And on the subject of unusual demands on players, I counsel, Pick your battles. If the end result is musical and worth it, almost any amount of challenge can be dealt with by the players. If the result is lost, or masked, or not musically worthwhile, then the players resent it, and you will be pulling teeth trying to get it to sound. That's not to say that a certain amount of teeth-pulling doesn't occur anyway, but there's no use making things more difficult for everyone than they have to be. I'm sorry my comment gave the impression that I was one of those teachers who wants all his students to sound like him. In fact, I am as far from that philosophy as I can possibly position myself, as were most of my favourite teachers. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT LONG: help with adult student
At 10:59 AM -0400 6/24/02, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: At 08:00 AM 6/22/02 -0700, Linda Worsley wrote: So here's my question: (at last) Faced with this daunting task, what would you do? I've been following this for a few days, because I had a student exactly like this -- very successful in another field (law) [huge clip] You have no idea how relevant, how helpful, and how comforting your long and eloquent story was for me. Many parallels, and many good ideas. Thank you, Dennis... Linda Worsley -- Hear the music at: http://www.ganymuse.com/ ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT LONG: help with adult student
At 5:20 PM -0500 6/22/02, John Howell wrote: Irving Berlin not only survived but flourished not being able to read or write a note of music. Christopher wrote: I've heard that account from many different sources, and I find it hard to beleive that Berlin's assistants were only taking down musical dictation. Berlin's harmonic sense was (by all other reports of people who heard him play his own songs, like Alec Wilder!) quite limited, and the harmonies of his tunes are quite sophisticated at times, to which I think the credit should go to his assistants. Well, I'd call that hearsay evidence at best, although I can't refute it. But we know that Berlin was very, very possessive of his music, and very upset when it was arranged in ways that he felt did not do justice to his songs. There are also stylistic matters in his songs, and yes, particularly in the harmonizations, which are remarkably consistent throughout his career, which would not be the case if a series of different secretaries had been tweaking his songs. But the matter is basically unproveable, unless there is documented evidence available from people who would not have had an axe to grind. John John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT LONG: help with adult student
Somebody wrote: Along the same lines, although not on the same level, I've always wondered exactly what John Williams does. In the credits, it usuallly says music by John Williams, arranged and orchestrated by . . . with 2 or 3 names. Ken And somebody else--perhaps Christopher--replied: My understanding is that John Williams supplies sketches to his orchestrators that are so detailed that the only thing left for the orchestrator to do is to decide section splits and which clarinet plays in which octave and the like. And this is only because of time restraints, as his concert music is entirely orchestrated by him (like his Tuba concerto). Plus his orchestrators are hand picked and closely supervised. I've worked under similar conditions - aside from the schedule, it's quite pleasant and can produce excellent work when the head guy knows his stuff. This kind of corporate creativity has long been the standard for Broadway shows. You never saw a Playbill for a Rodgers and Hammerstein show that did not have Orchestrations by Robert Russell Bennett listed, and usually someone else credited with the dance orchestrations. Such shows are always put together under time and money constraints, and for film music multiply everything by two orders of magnitude! It's been done since at least the Renaissance, with the Master laying down the broad design and the apprentices filling in the details. (Probably medieval too, as far as that goes.) Rodin is recognized as a great artist, but his sculptures were produced in an industrialized shop and he probably never poured bronze himself once he made his name and reputation. And the shop continued to produce--and copyright!--his works after his death. John John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT LONG: help with adult student
At 5:20 PM -0500 6/22/02, John Howell wrote: Irving Berlin not only survived but flourished not being able to read or write a note of music. He could play what he wanted (supposedly only in the key of F#, and I guess the pianos rigged with movable keyboards to let him do this are right there in the Smithsonian), and he hired musical secretaries to take down his songs and put them into notation. I've heard that account from many different sources, and I find it hard to beleive that Berlin's assistants were only taking down musical dictation. Berlin's harmonic sense was (by all other reports of people who heard him play his own songs, like Alec Wilder!) quite limited, and the harmonies of his tunes are quite sophisticated at times, to which I think the credit should go to his assistants. Like Linda, I have often been in the position of arranging a melody that some client has played to me using I, IV, and V chords, and making it quite lush using my own harmonies, to his delight. I suspect that Berlin's relationship with his assistants was similar. Because of the way copyright laws are set up, the person who worked out those beautiful chords to all those Berlin tunes doesn't get a penny of royalties, as only lyrics and melodies are copyrightable. Yet, IMHO, those songs might not have been the successes that they were without the contribution of the assistant, so wouldn't they be due a bit of spare change? Christopher ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT LONG: help with adult student
On Sun, 23 Jun 2002 11:27:43 -0400, you wrote: Because of the way copyright laws are set up, the person who worked out those beautiful chords to all those Berlin tunes doesn't get a penny of royalties, as only lyrics and melodies are copyrightable. Yet, IMHO, those songs might not have been the successes that they were without the contribution of the assistant, so wouldn't they be due a bit of spare change? Along the same lines, although not on the same level, I've always wondered exactly what John Williams does. In the credits, it usuallly says music by John Williams, arranged and orchestrated by . . . with 2 or 3 names. Ken Ken, I'm replying to the List, even though you sent it only to me, as I assume you meant to reply to all. Hmm, I've only ever seen Orchestrations in his film music credits, with the exception of some pop tunes that probably needed an up-to-the minute young producer working on them, like Somewhere Out There from An American Tail. Concert versions of his film music might be another story, as his film orchestras are often too large to be reproduced live with usual pop concert budgets. My understanding is that John Williams supplies sketches to his orchestrators that are so detailed that the only thing left for the orchestrator to do is to decide section splits and which clarinet plays in which octave and the like. And this is only because of time restraints, as his concert music is entirely orchestrated by him (like his Tuba concerto). Plus his orchestrators are hand picked and closely supervised. I've worked under similar conditions - aside from the schedule, it's quite pleasant and can produce excellent work when the head guy knows his stuff. On the other hand, some guys like Danny Elfman don't ever touch a piece of staff paper, playing and singing things into cassettes and sequencers and passing it off to orchestrators that are more like arrangers. This seems to me to be more than a bit dishonest. I've done this kind of work, too (on the orchestrator side, not the composer side!) The money is the same, but for way more expertise and responsibility on my part. Apparently, the term orchestrator nowadays means anything from complete arrangement from the ground up (including harmony, accompaniment figures and counterlines); through rearranging, cleaning up, adding voices, and getting everything to sit well; to straight ahead instrument assignment from a complete sketch. The term arranger' is hardly used any more, as his duties in the industry now seem to be covered by the title producer, who used to be the guy who assembled the team and arranged financing and distribution, but now makes musical decisions. Artistic Producer and Executive Producer are a neat distinction, along with Associate Producer, who only seems to supply money. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT LONG: help with adult student
At 1:14 PM -0400 6/23/02, Christopher BJ Smith wrote: The term arranger' is hardly used any more, as his duties in the industry now seem to be covered by the title producer, who used to be the guy who assembled the team and arranged financing and distribution, but now makes musical decisions. Artistic Producer and Executive Producer are a neat distinction, along with Associate Producer, who only seems to supply money. And in the credits to a movie I saw recently I noticed: Assistant Producer 2nd Assistant Producer 2nd 2nd Assistant Producer What is THAT about? I've worked a bit with film, so I know there are all kinds of producers, line producers, executive producers, etc. etc. But 2nd 2nd? Maybe it was a joke. Linda -- Hear the music at: http://www.ganymuse.com/ ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT LONG: help with adult student
At 11:27 AM -0400 6/23/02, Christopher BJ Smith wrote: At 5:20 PM -0500 6/22/02, John Howell wrote: Irving Berlin not only survived but flourished not being able to read or write a note of music. He could play what he wanted (supposedly only in the key of F#, and I guess the pianos rigged with movable keyboards to let him do this are right there in the Smithsonian), and he hired musical secretaries to take down his songs and put them into notation. I've heard that account from many different sources, and I find it hard to beleive that Berlin's assistants were only taking down musical dictation. Berlin's harmonic sense was (by all other reports of people who heard him play his own songs, like Alec Wilder!) quite limited, and the harmonies of his tunes are quite sophisticated at times, to which I think the credit should go to his assistants. Like Linda, I have often been in the position of arranging a melody that some client has played to me using I, IV, and V chords, and making it quite lush using my own harmonies, to his delight. I suspect that Berlin's relationship with his assistants was similar. Because of the way copyright laws are set up, the person who worked out those beautiful chords to all those Berlin tunes doesn't get a penny of royalties, as only lyrics and melodies are copyrightable. Yet, IMHO, those songs might not have been the successes that they were without the contribution of the assistant, so wouldn't they be due a bit of spare change? Christopher ___ To my way of thinking yes, but the laws deem otherwise. It's Sunday, and Margot is away visiting her mother, so I feel like ranting a little. Disinterested parties are welcome to delete the following at will. My mother used to ask me, Is that a composition of yours or 'only' an arrangement? My response was, My compositions are my natural born children, my arrangements my adopted kids. I lavish love on them all. To her credit, she got the point. Still, for me, it is not easy to feel the confidence and strength required to come up with newly formed projects all the time, and my energy often needs a less demanding outlet. Making a personal version of someone else's work, work that sometimes seems a little unfinished to me, can be a rewarding diversion, and it does nothing to diminish my respect for the basic structure of the piece on which I am focusing this attention. If I spend enough energy on a particularly fruitful arrangement, sometimes a work emerges which seems to stand on its own. Nevertheless, it couldn't have happened without the original thing to inspire it - and there eventually gets to be a delicately balanced question of proportion in terms of credit. How important is harmony, for instance? To me, Bill Evans' application of chordal counterpoint to the bridges of In a Sentimental Mood and Lover Man (both of them, stunning), or the whole of Arlen's Come Rain or Come Shine has become inseparable from the way I remember those songs in my head. But most listeners are less affected by this and recognize and appreciate the songs even when they are performed with bizarre harmony (in ignorant versions). As one who has learned to respond to harmonic nuance and become fascinated by it, this is a confusing and frustrating phenomenon. On the one hand, the harmony re-makes the song on a deep level (to my ears). On the other hand, the process of coming up with a telling re-harmonization is more like figuring out a crossword puzzle than writing a poem - not exactly, of course, but something like that. The general listener hears no important differences, and the true credit goes to the tunesmith. Part of me understands that, another part thinks that the originators of the plots of Shakespeare's plays did not write those plays. Porgy and Bess is monumental. Miles Davis/Gil Evans Porgy and Bess is sensational and inconceivable without Gershwin. I love them both, but must admit to being especially attracted to Miles and Gil. What does that mean? They have translated a great work into an idiom that speaks more personally to me? A famous pop songwriter/singer was a student of mine for a short time - a gifted one who learned at an amazing rate. His work changed a little as he absorbed information he needed to make his work be more interesting and move forward when it got stuck, but it wasn't mine, so I politely sidestepped his elliptical (and kind hearted) suggestion that I might be due points on the resulting album. I never could figure out how to make real money out of music. OK - enough. Cheers, Chuck -- Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham WA 98225-5836 (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT LONG: help with adult student
On 22 Jun 2002, at 17:20, John Howell wrote: In the long run, he'll have to learn by trial and error, just like everybody else. (Except, perhaps, Mozart. I'm not sure he EVER made any errors!) Yes, Mozart made errors. Lots of his earliest works were written down by his father, and it's unclear the degree to which Leopold corrected what his son originally conceived. And Mozart corrected himself quite frequently, including voice leading. But his training was very early, and he had the advantage of growing up in an age in which nearly all the music he heard from birth was part of the same style. Of course, all of his contemporaries had that advantage, too, and Mozart was still as good a composer as a child as most adults, and I need not say more about his adult compositions. -- David W. Fenton |http://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associates |http://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT LONG: help with adult student
On Sunday, June 23, 2002, at 11:27 AM, Christopher BJ Smith wrote: Because of the way copyright laws are set up, the person who worked out those beautiful chords to all those Berlin tunes doesn't get a penny of royalties, as only lyrics and melodies are copyrightable. Yet, IMHO, those songs might not have been the successes that they were without the contribution of the assistant, so wouldn't they be due a bit of spare change? The way I heard it, Berlin would insist (almost maniacally, at times) that the work done by his assistants constituted work for hire. Whoever was helping him write would play the same few bars, over and over again, each time with different harmonies, until he hit on something Berlin liked, at which point Berlin would say, That's it! That's the one! Now, remember -- that's MINE. That's not yours, that's MINE. So regardless of the fundamental unfairness of such an arrangement, all of Berlin's assistants knew what they were getting in to, and giving up any claim to copyright on the songs they helped him write was part of the deal. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston MA ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT LONG: help with adult student
Linda Worsley wrote: [snip] So here's my question: (at last) Faced with this daunting task, what would you do? I'd shoot myself!! All I can say is, best of luck (I think you're going to need bushels of it, and black coffee by the tanker-load). Let us all know how it goes! Seriously, I wish you all the courage and energy in the world for this project,... and I'm thanking my lucky stars I'm not in your shoes. Ch.S. / Sorry I can't be any real help ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT LONG: help with adult student
At 8:00 AM -0700 6/22/02, Linda Worsley wrote: For the past two years I have been sorting out and converting to Finale files really awful files he has created, by guess and by golly, in Encore (ugh), mostly playing them in with synthesizers, and creating huge scored versions of songs for his Broadway musical. (Yeah, yeah, I know. I've told him, but let's move on. He's never had a failure and he's determined that this will not be his first.) All the songs are way, way too complicated, two thick, and can only be played or sung by machines, not humans. This last point may not be the problem it appears to be, unless the score is destined to be played solely by live musicians. I (for example) have often combined sequencers and live orchestras, and not just for budget reasons, but because frankly the synths can handle the highly technical passages and odd timbres with better consistency. A bigger problem is whether there is a lot of interference between parts. You mentioned Wozzeck, well, Berg's counterpoint and spacing is very clear, much more so than some Broadway orchestrations I could mention. (Obviously, there are other challenges to the listener in Wozzeck, but the thickness or busy-ness of the texture is not often among them.) Part of the problem is, of course, that anyone with a bunch of synthesizers can decide he/she is a composer, and crank out great big works. The machines-- computers and synths, which don't know any better, will play it back just as if it made sense for live musicians, but of course most of the time it doesn't. Like I said, a point that may carry more weight with him than some unknown musician's problems with his parts, is whether it makes sense to a LISTENER. And one way to show this to him is to get a bunch of players together for a demo and let him listen to how his work sounds. This is a much better teacher than any number of lectures and textbooks, and carries the weight of the evidence of his own ears, rather than taking your word for it. He will be much more ready to accept your point of view afterwards, as I can attest after the first reading session for my university arranging class. Here's the thing... he's really talented: that is, he has a very interesting voice, particularly for harmony, but actually for pretty much everything... But he can't spell chords, can't spell scales, doesn't know how to find a key signature, is totally unacquainted with any of the so-called rules of music, or as I like to call them traditions and common practices. He is simply completely and utterly unschooled in basic musical tradition and knowledge. Hmm. He needs scales, chords, and basic rhythmic notation first. Counterpoint will seem pointless to him until he can make the connection between what he hears and what he is learning in counterpoint, but he will need to bite the bullet and hunker down to work. If, as I surmise, he is working completely by ear, building up arrangements in layers with his sequencer, he is probably overloading everything, on the assumption that if it sounds good while he is playing it in, it will continue to sound good when something else is layered on top of it, which as you know, is not true at all. Some analysis of things he likes the sound of will show this to him, as we all know, the tenor line sounds pretty dumb by itself, but glorious in context. IMHO, there is no reason not to have him continue on WHILE he learns this basic stuff. A lot can be corrected as you go, if as you say, he learns fast. I'm not sure I would use a book to teach him, unless he wants a reference outside class. I had a private student somewhat like this once, and I just told him what he needed, he agreed, and we got down to it. It took him a while to make the connections with his more advanced ideas, but I did my best to point out things to him all the time, like things that stay inside the key, things that don't, melodic ornaments as they showed up in stuff we looked at, contrary motion and various implementations of the species counterpoint. Plain old orchestration is much easier to learn than good melody and counterpoint, and a lot of arranging is just counterpoint anyway. If he analyses something he likes, then applies the same analysis to HIS work, he may pick up something. Or he might toss it all and go back to working by ear without understanding. That's always a risk. As I point out to my students, most composers write by ear anyway, the analysis is just to keep them from writing themselves into a corner. Good luck with this! Christopher ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT LONG: help with adult student
Title: Re: [Finale] OT LONG: help with adult student Dear Linda, This is at the same time, a fascinating and difficult puzzle, and it will probably require constant adjustment. I have a few suggestions: For learning harmony and voice leading in the 21st Century (and according to your description of this man's music), I would assume the seventh chord as the basic unit rather than the triad. The advantage of this, besides the fact that it would seem to suit much of the material you describe, is that voice leading tendencies fall into easily described and predictable patterns. This is a guide I have written for my arranging/composing students. First step: Include root, 3rd and 7th. Omit 5ths, 9ths, 11ths and 13ths. Keep the root on the bottom. Keep the 3rds and 7ths above D, third line, bass clef. Keep the lower note (of the 3rds and 7ths) within the octave below D above middle C. When the root is in the melody, substitute the 6th for the Maj. 7th. Tonic minor chords may sometimes appear as triads (1,3,5 or 1,5,3). Voice Leading Rules: When the roots move by 4th or 5th (including aug. 4th/dim. 5th), the 3rd moves to the 7th and the 7th moves to the 3rd. When the roots move by step, all voices move by step in the same direction (parallel). When the roots move by 3rds, parallel motion is most common but switching voices is acceptable and sometimes useful in order to re-align the voicing. When it becomes necessary to switch voicings in order to avoid range problems, it must be done within the duration of one chord. Ignoring these rules will result in awkward and unattractive voice leading. Rootless 3 Note Voicings: Include 3rd, 7th and one extra pitch selected from: root, 9th, 5th or 13th. Avoid minor 2nds between top two voices. (e.g. In ascending order, redistribute 3rd, 13th, flat 7 to; flat 7, 3rd, 13th or; 13th, flat 7, 3rd.) Keep the lowest note above D, third line, bass clef and the highest note preferably below A above middle C. (F would be an even better upper limit.) This register is most effective for the majority of orchestration possibilities. When the roots move by 4th or 5th (including aug. 4th/dim. 5th); roots and 9ths lead to 5ths and 13ths; 5ths and 13ths lead to roots and 9ths. All other voice leading rules apply. 4 note voicings are created by adding omitted pitches from the previous list (adding 11 in minor chords or #11 in major or dominant chords as an option) over, under, or between existing voices. Maintain voice leading. All of this is pretty easy to understand after using it for a while, but it completely leaves out the issues that the classical, Roman numeral, system makes clear - what key (of the moment) are you in, and how far you are from the eventual real cadence of the phrase. So I insist on teaching both nomenclatures simultaneously. Each is useful for different reasons, and locating a harmonic point with two coordinates increases the likelihood of understanding. Of course, this system cannot possibly include all possibilities, though I find that it does a pretty good job of getting students to understand what they are hearing (and doing) in the language of 20th Century American popular music. Mark Levine has written some very clear books about this kind of thing (Sher Music) which, unlike Bill Dobbins' otherwise good books, have the advantage of not including a confusing encyclopaedic listing of every possible combination and permutation. Mark's books are organized by concentrating on the most often used techniques. On the rhythm side, I always try to have my students write down something they might say, in its normal timing and inflection, in musical notation. I have never had much success with this, so I don't know why I continue to try it. They never even get close, but it is an exercise which has been useful to me in generating idiomatic, jazzy, rhythms which are varied, memorable, and comfortable in their relation to the speech rhythms we hear every day. Sometimes I suggest that students take a typically approximately notated lead sheet of a standard song and adjust the rhythms so that the timing of the lyric makes emotional sense, the way a great singer might time the words. I continue to maintain that there's something to be gained by this exercise, and it does expose the budding musician to the fact that the music of emotionally sensible American English is full of quarter note triplets. Anyway, these are some things I might try. I'd be glad to have you keep me posted of your successes and failures in communicating the principles and details of our musical language to this student. I hope there is something helpful in this. Best of luck. Chuck -- Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham WA 98225-5836 (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Finale] OT LONG: help with adult student
Anything I can think of for materials is going to be a real challenge for a head-strong student. I can think of a few books to assign him and tell him to call you with any questions: 1) Gardner Read's Music Notation: A Manual of Modern Practice; 2) Andrew Stiller's Handbook of Instrumentation; 3) Ted Ross's Teach Yourself the Art of Music Engraving and Processing; 4) Kurt Stone's Music Notation in the Twentieth Century 5) George Heussenstam's Norton Manual of Music Notation All of these are available from Nick Carter's http://www.npcimaging.com or you can get Andrew Stiller's book directly from him at: http://pw1.netcom.com/~kallisti/ It is amazing the amount of music theory one learns simply by studying notation. With a wunderkind such as Linda has, this mountain of material should humble him a bit and will, if they are read and studied, give Linda some real material with to work with the guy. Charles Small wrote: Linda Worsley wrote: [snip] So here's my question: (at last) Faced with this daunting task, what would you do? I'd shoot myself!! All I can say is, best of luck (I think you're going to need bushels of it, and black coffee by the tanker-load). Let us all know how it goes! Seriously, I wish you all the courage and energy in the world for this project,... and I'm thanking my lucky stars I'm not in your shoes. Ch.S. / Sorry I can't be any real help ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT LONG: help with adult student
...I have no CLUE as to materials for someone like my student, who jumped over all the basics and started writing huge scores. I have a few ideas, but I thought I'd throw this at the group, and try to get some guidance and recommendations. Linda Worsley I was a zoology major as an undergraduate, and only took those music courses that appealed to me. As a result, I faced the GRE in music with just one-and-a half semesters of theory under my belt, (not the first 1 1/2, but that's another story...). To pick up as much as possible of the rest before taking the exam, I picked up the Barnes and Noble College Outline volume on Music Theory, which covers everything from the rudiments right through form-and-analysis in just 300 pages of telegraphic prose. It got me into grad school, and I'll bet it'll get your guy where he's going too. -- Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT LONG: help with adult student
With regard to his needing instruction in chord structure and notation: I've done some work recently for someone who was accepted into BMI's Lehmann Engel workshop who did not have a very strong knowledge of chords or notation. They apparently pair themselves up with someone who can fill in their knowledge in that regard. I still don't envy you this job. It's bad enough when I get a student who needs extensive vocal training but expect me to prepare them for an immediate audition. Good luck! Crystal Premo [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT LONG: help with adult student
Linda Worsley asked: So here's my question: (at last) Faced with this daunting task, what would you do? What materials, books, methods, etc. would you employ? I have taught babies and adult beginners and everything in between, and I know about how to take a student sequentially from point A to point B and beyond. But I have no CLUE as to materials for someone like my student, who jumped over all the basics and started writing huge scores. I have a few ideas, but I thought I'd throw this at the group, and try to get some guidance and recommendations. Linda: You've already had some excellent practical advice, assuming that you really want to follow through with this. But let me ask a more preliminary question: Does HE really want to go through all of this, or do YOU want him to because you think he needs to? Learning music theory is boring! Always has been, always will be, even when I learned it from my Mom, who was a great teacher. It takes a long time just to internalize the basics, and longer to begin to put them together and understand the higher order relationships. I've been doing it since at least Jr. High School, and I'm still appalled at how much I don't know! At his age, will it be worth it? Irving Berlin not only survived but flourished not being able to read or write a note of music. He could play what he wanted (supposedly only in the key of F#, and I guess the pianos rigged with movable keyboards to let him do this are right there in the Smithsonian), and he hired musical secretaries to take down his songs and put them into notation. Sure, it's cumbersome, and I'm sure could be frustrating at times, but for him it worked. If the man is a retired CEO he can presumeably afford to hire a skilled music theory grad student to assist him. After all, did he type all his own letters, do all his own accounting, or act as his own lawyer when he was a CEO? No, those aren't what CEOs are hired for. He undoubtedly had experts to do the mechanics for him. Can someone who doesn't read or write her language produce beautiful poetry or gripping prose? Sure! The language is NOT the notation, and it isn't in music either. Epics and fables and folk wisdom have been passed down for centuries in many different cultures by illiterate storytellers, including the Old Testament. Language is a spoken art, not a graphic art. I've worked with country musicians who didn't know a lick about reading music or music theory, and couldn't even tell me what chord they were playing, but they were very fine musicians and knew EXACTLY what they were doing in terms of the music itself. I sense that you want to guide him, and that he's resisting it. In the long run, he'll have to learn by trial and error, just like everybody else. (Except, perhaps, Mozart. I'm not sure he EVER made any errors!) I'm convinced that you can't teach creativity; you can only encourage it, and teach the mechanics that make it easier to share it. But unless he WANTS to learn those mechanics, he won't! Just a thought. As a teacher I too have run into students who want to create but have never buckled down to learn the basics. I've felt sorry for them, but at least they were young enough to double back and learn what they needed. Perhaps your guy isn't. Perhaps he'd actually be happier running things and being opinionated just as he always has been. And making the mistakes he will surely make, with or without your guidance. And, hopefully, learning from them. After all, Charles Ives was a little unconventional, too. Let us know when his first show opens on Broadway! John John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT LONG: help with adult student
Dear Linda, The magnificient book Music Theory Resource Book by Harold Owen is a must. It is one of the best book of my library. And since Hal is in the list you can ask him if he agrees with me. Saludos, y suerte. Javier. So here's my question: (at last) Faced with this daunting task, what would you do? What materials, books, methods, etc. would you employ? I have taught babies and adult beginners and everything in between, and I know about how to take a student sequentially from point A to point B and beyond. But I have no CLUE as to materials for someone like my student, who jumped over all the basics and started writing huge scores. I have a few ideas, but I thought I'd throw this at the group, and try to get some guidance and recommendations. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT LONG: help with adult student
At 1:59 PM -0400 6/22/02, Christopher BJ Smith wrote: At 8:00 AM -0700 6/22/02, Linda Worsley wrote: All the songs are way, way too complicated, two thick, and can only be played or sung by machines, not humans. This last point may not be the problem it appears to be, unless the score is destined to be played solely by live musicians. I (for example) have often combined sequencers and live orchestras, and not just for budget reasons, but because frankly the synths can handle the highly technical passages and odd timbres with better consistency. I do this a lot, too. But I know how to build a D major scale and how to spell an F# minor chord. In short, I pretty much know what I'm doing. He doesn't. And yes, he means it to be played by humans. A bigger problem is whether there is a lot of interference between parts. You mentioned Wozzeck, well, Berg's counterpoint and spacing is very clear, much more so than some Broadway orchestrations I could mention. (Obviously, there are other challenges to the listener in Wozzeck, but the thickness or busy-ness of the texture is not often among them.) You're right about all of the above. The problem is that he was trying to write a Broadway show type song in a particular dramatic setting, and it was so complex and full of anomalies that I used Wozzeck in a flip way. He was after something closer to, say, Gershwin or Sondheim, and instead it was an unplayable, unsingable thicket of stuff... I was being funny, and he turned it back on me by improvising a passage that sounded for all the world like a bit of Wozzeck. He's really quite amazing. (And so is Berg. No parallel. I was being facetious.) Like I said, a point that may carry more weight with him than some unknown musician's problems with his parts, is whether it makes sense to a LISTENER. Ah... we did that. We recorded some of the stuff live (with really good performers), and he was able to see many of the problems. That was the point where I was able to pull him back to the piano/vocal version... reducing each song to its basic form and content without a gazillion synth flute diddleydiddleys and impossible runs and 22 part chords on other instruments. That was the point at which we began to make some progress. Before that, it was just that's my vision (oy) and I'll just have to find players and singers who CAN do it. But the live experience (they did it all right, and did it well, but they rolled their eyes a lot, and the result was not what he expected.) . This is a much better teacher than any number of lectures and textbooks, and carries the weight of the evidence of his own ears, rather than taking your word for it. He will be much more ready to accept your point of view afterwards, as I can attest after the first reading session for my university arranging class. Yes, indeed... see above. This cost him a lot of money (we hired some great Broadway players and singers) but thank god we did it. Otherwise we'd have gotten to the table reading and staged reading phase in chaos. (I wouldn't have lasted that long.) Hmm. He needs scales, chords, and basic rhythmic notation first. Counterpoint will seem pointless to him until he can make the connection between what he hears and what he is learning in counterpoint, but he will need to bite the bullet and hunker down to work. Yup. If, as I surmise, he is working completely by ear, building up arrangements in layers with his sequencer, he is probably overloading everything, on the assumption that if it sounds good while he is playing it in, it will continue to sound good when something else is layered on top of it Obviously you've been through this! But he has finally begun to hear the excesses and throw out the stuff that doesn't matter. But he still needs to learn how to do basic stuff. With a pencil. The computer is a great toy for amateurs and no-talents who just want to fool around. But this guy really wants to know how to do it, so he needs to back up and pretend he's about nine years old and approaching his first lesson. He says he'll try... bless him. It's only taken two years to get him to that state of mind, and now I want to do right by him. IMHO, there is no reason not to have him continue on WHILE he learns this basic stuff. Try and stop him! (I agree with your point, though) A lot can be corrected as you go, if as you say, he learns fast. I'm not sure I would use a book to teach him, Oh, believe me. He can't construct a key signature. I need a book, he needs a book, we need structure. I learned all this stuff before I was nine, and he's never learned it at all. Plain old orchestration is much easier to learn than good melody and counterpoint, and a lot of arranging is just counterpoint anyway. I can't agree that it's easier... there's the whole thing of writing idiomatically for the various instruments. He thinks it's enough to know what their
Re: [Finale] OT LONG: help with adult student
At 11:19 AM -0700 6/22/02, Chuck Israels wrote: For learning harmony and voice leading in the 21st Century (and according to your description of this man's music), I would assume the seventh chord as the basic unit rather than the triad. The advantage of this, besides the fact that it would seem to suit much of the material you describe, is that voice leading tendencies fall into easily described and predictable patterns. This is a guide I have written for my arranging/composing students. First step: Include root, 3rd and 7th. Omit 5ths, 9ths, 11ths and 13ths. Keep the root on the bottom. [etc.] Great, great post, Chuck. I'm archiving and saving it. Terrific! Maybe a year from now I can use it with this student. For now, he doesn't know what a triad is. Doesn't know what a root is. (I've used all these terms and described them, but because he started in the middle and has tried to learn in all directions since, it doesn't stick and he doesn't really get it. I have to start from the BEGINNING, and somehow convince him to slog through all the basics, performing enough exercises and samples that he and I are both sure that he has it in his bone marrow. Then we can start with the kinds of things you described. On the other hand, he's very fast. Maybe we'll get there by Christmas. Thanks again for a terrific post. -- Hear the music at: http://www.ganymuse.com/ ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT LONG: help with adult student
At 3:49 PM -0400 6/22/02, David H. Bailey wrote: Anything I can think of for materials is going to be a real challenge for a head-strong student. I can think of a few books to assign him and tell him to call you with any questions: 1) Gardner Read's Music Notation: A Manual of Modern Practice; 2) Andrew Stiller's Handbook of Instrumentation; 3) Ted Ross's Teach Yourself the Art of Music Engraving and Processing; 4) Kurt Stone's Music Notation in the Twentieth Century 5) George Heussenstam's Norton Manual of Music Notation I own all of these, except the Ross (which I want to look for... it sounds very useful) and have purchased the Norton Manual and Gardner Read for my student as well. He will use them, eventually. But as you point out later in your post, that mountain of information is humbling. It's part of the way I got him to realize how much he needed to learn, how far back he has to go, if he is serious about learning all this. You said: It is amazing the amount of music theory one learns simply by studying notation. So true. Anything he has learned in this venture is pretty much entirely from slogging through the notation and fixing everything. Thanks very much for the tips! Linda Worsley -- Hear the music at: http://www.ganymuse.com/ ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT LONG: help with adult student
At 10:36 PM +0100 6/22/02, Javier Ruiz wrote: Dear Linda, The magnificient book Music Theory Resource Book by Harold Owen is a must. It is one of the best book of my library. And since Hal is in the list you can ask him if he agrees with me. He does, and I'm going to get the book. Thanks! Linda Worsley -- Hear the music at: http://www.ganymuse.com/ ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT LONG: help with adult student
From the description of your student, it sounds like the only problem is in his perception of what he needs. He says he wants to orchestrate. OK, fine. Let him try. Let him go ahead and score something, whether he's ready or not. Then let him hear an orchestra play it. Possibly he'll be satisfied by what he hears. More likely, he'll recognize that it doesn't sound good; he'll want to understand why, and that is what will motivate him to learn the fundamentals. An impatient and strongly self-motivated person can't be told what he needs to learn, he needs to see it for himself. If you say, No, you can't do that yet, you're not ready for it, he will rebel. But if HE discovers that he can't do something which he's not ready for, he will want to learn what he needs to know. Let your student be the one to decide what he needs to learn. Focus instead on his goals. Either he really does need to learn theory or he doesn't. If he does, it will inevitably come up. If he doesn't, then so be it. mdl ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT LONG: help with adult student
At 2:46 PM -0700 6/22/02, Linda Worsley wrote: At 11:19 AM -0700 6/22/02, Chuck Israels wrote: For learning harmony and voice leading in the 21st Century (and according to your description of this man's music), I would assume the seventh chord as the basic unit rather than the triad. The advantage of this, besides the fact that it would seem to suit much of the material you describe, is that voice leading tendencies fall into easily described and predictable patterns. This is a guide I have written for my arranging/composing students. First step: Include root, 3rd and 7th. Omit 5ths, 9ths, 11ths and 13ths. Keep the root on the bottom. [etc.] Great, great post, Chuck. I'm archiving and saving it. Terrific! Maybe a year from now I can use it with this student. For now, he doesn't know what a triad is. Doesn't know what a root is. (I've used all these terms and described them, but because he started in the middle and has tried to learn in all directions since, it doesn't stick and he doesn't really get it. I have to start from the BEGINNING, and somehow convince him to slog through all the basics, performing enough exercises and samples that he and I are both sure that he has it in his bone marrow. Then we can start with the kinds of things you described. On the other hand, he's very fast. Maybe we'll get there by Christmas. Thanks again for a terrific post. You're most welcome. Assuming things are as you describe them, and this person is really not familiar with how harmony comes about, perhaps a demonstration of how chords come from the physical attributes of vibrating bodies in the harmonic series would indicate to him how roots, thirds, and fifths are related. 7th grade science class was a revelation to me in this respect, and I still remember the teacher. Chuck -- Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham WA 98225-5836 (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
