Re: [Freedos-devel] keyb us does not work

[Aitor Santamaría]

Hello Paul,


On 6 November 2016 at 17:17, Paul Dufresne  wrote:

> When it work, it detects the other version running:
> different version of KEYB found 594003C != d0f4003c
>
> Is it the address of KEYB instances?
>
Depending on the exact message, would mean a different version, different
driver...



> Ok, anyway, it is not what I was expecting.
> I expect DOS to have a table of 256 scancodes to ASCII (well extended
> with 128 code-page specific characters)
> values. I expect this table to be changed by KEYB, not to stay
> resident in memory.
>
What do you exactly mean by a table of 256 scancodes? KEYB would map some
key/scancodes to others, overriding BIOS. Thus, it requires to be resident.

If you mean character maps, then it is about the display, not the keyboard,
and you actually need DISPLAY. It needs to be resident, because some
changes do reset character maps, and you need a DISPLAY that keeps
controlling that codepages do not change.


> I just look a bit this table is BIOS related, not DOS related.
>
KEYB is a "driver", but not a standard DOS driver, but works as a BIOS
extension/override.
DISPLAY would theoretically be a estándar DOS driver extension (extending
CON), but does actually work as a BIOS override too.
So yes, it is BIOS related, not DOS related.

It seems it should be pointed by interrupts vectors:
> 48 BIOS PCjr cordless keyboard translation
> 49 BIOS PCjr non-keyboard scancode translation table
>
I haven't looked into this, but sounds like PCjr, not standard PC.


> Oh well, not sure at all if it is really used by most BIOS.
> Maybe I should like inside SEABIOS code.
>
> This table should be used by Int 16h (BIOS).
>
> Maybe I should begin by trying to understand why there is keyb, and mkeyb.
> :-)
>

They work similarly, but mkeyb is smaller and hardcoded (unless changed in
the previous times and I didn't notice), keyb is bigger and programmable
(you create your own mappings if you want). Depending on your needs.

Aitor
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Re: [Freedos-devel] keyb us does not work

[Mateusz Viste]

So basically there's a specially crafted "French Canadian" keyboard 
layout. One learns new stuff every day. Thanks for the information!

Unfortunately, it appears that none of the FreeDOS keyboard drivers 
(xkeyb, keyb, mkeyb) support the French-Canadian layout out of the box.

regards,
Mateusz




On Mon, 07 Nov 2016 08:45:40 -0500, Paul Dufresne wrote:
> 2016-11-07 4:15 GMT-05:00 Mateusz Viste :
>> On Sun, 06 Nov 2016 00:14:25 -0400, Paul Dufresne wrote:
>>> you might find it strange, but here in Quebec, we are totally lost
>>> with french keyboard. US is much more usable for us.
>>
>> Hi Paul, out of sheer curiosity - may I ask how do you actually write
>> french without an azerty layout? Are people in Quebec dropping all
>> "uncomfortable" accents (é è à ç etc...) in the process, or are you
>> using some other trick?
>>
>> Mateusz
> 
> There is é key on our keyboard.
> For others accents, we type the accents, then the letter.
> You can check:
> http://www3.uakron.edu/modlang/french/keyboard.html You may forget about
> part 1, I was not even aware about the Ctrl key 'trick'.
> 
> Also:
> http://www.ergopedia.ca/ergonomic_concepts/
List_of_Characters_French_Canadian_Keyboard.html
> 
> Also our government have developped a differrent layout with more
> accentuated letters on it, it is called canadian multilingual. But even
> the government seems to drop it for the good old french canadian
> keyboard.
> So just for curiosity you might look at it at:
> http://charsetplus.tripod.com/Keyboard/Latin/ENFR-CAN.htm
> 


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Re: [Freedos-devel] keyb us does not work

[Mateusz Viste]

On Sun, 06 Nov 2016 11:17:27 -0500, Paul Dufresne wrote:
> Maybe I should begin by trying to understand why there is keyb, and
> mkeyb. :-)

Here I found an excellent introduction to the subject:
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/dos/keyb/mkeyb/
xkeyb+mkeyb.txt

Mateusz


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Re: [Freedos-devel] keyb us does not work

[Paul Dufresne]

2016-11-07 4:15 GMT-05:00 Mateusz Viste :
> On Sun, 06 Nov 2016 00:14:25 -0400, Paul Dufresne wrote:
>> you might find it strange, but here in Quebec, we are totally lost with
>> french keyboard. US is much more usable for us.
>
> Hi Paul, out of sheer curiosity - may I ask how do you actually write
> french without an azerty layout? Are people in Quebec dropping all
> "uncomfortable" accents (é è à ç etc...) in the process, or are you using
> some other trick?
>
> Mateusz

There is é key on our keyboard.
For others accents, we type the accents, then the letter.
You can check:
http://www3.uakron.edu/modlang/french/keyboard.html
You may forget about part 1, I was not even aware about the Ctrl key 'trick'.

Also: 
http://www.ergopedia.ca/ergonomic_concepts/List_of_Characters_French_Canadian_Keyboard.html

Also our government have developped a differrent layout with more accentuated
letters on it, it is called canadian multilingual. But even the government seems
to drop it for the good old french canadian keyboard.
So just for curiosity you might look at it at:
http://charsetplus.tripod.com/Keyboard/Latin/ENFR-CAN.htm

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Re: [Freedos-devel] keyb us does not work

[Mateusz Viste]

On Sun, 06 Nov 2016 00:14:25 -0400, Paul Dufresne wrote:
> you might find it strange, but here in Quebec, we are totally lost with
> french keyboard. US is much more usable for us.

Hi Paul, out of sheer curiosity - may I ask how do you actually write 
french without an azerty layout? Are people in Quebec dropping all 
"uncomfortable" accents (é è à ç etc...) in the process, or are you using 
some other trick?

Mateusz



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Re: [Freedos-devel] keyb us does not work

[Jerome Shidel]

> On Nov 6, 2016, at 7:11 AM, Eric Auer  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi people,
> 
> it might be sort of obvious but...
> 
>>> US is much more usable for us.
>>> 
>>> But then, when I type
>>> keyb us
>>> 
>>> the 2 output lines, seems to suggest that it worked.
>>> 
>>> But I still have AZERTY (french) keyboard layout...
> 
> You possibly loaded 2 instances of keyb - the easiest
> way to get US keyboard would be to UNLOAD all instances.
> 
> For example comment out the autoexec line which loads
> it and then reboot. I hope the installer also avoids
> loading any drivers for US keyboards: Would waste RAM.
> 
> Regards, Eric
> 
> PS: The installer should not blindly assume that users
> have some keyboard related to their language, but ask.
> 
> 

Show Quoted Content
> On Nov 6, 2016, at 7:11 AM, Eric Auer  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi people,
> 
> it might be sort of obvious but...
> 
>>> US is much more usable for us.
>>> 
>>> But then, when I type
>>> keyb us
>>> 
>>> the 2 output lines, seems to suggest that it worked.
>>> 
>>> But I still have AZERTY (french) keyboard layout...
> 
> You possibly loaded 2 instances of keyb - the easiest
> way to get US keyboard would be to UNLOAD all instances.
> 
> For example comment out the autoexec line which loads
> it and then reboot. I hope the installer also avoids
> loading any drivers for US keyboards: Would waste RAM.
> 
> Regards, Eric
> 
> PS: The installer should not blindly assume that users
> have some keyboard related to their language, but ask.
> 
> 


It does not blindly set the keyboard layout. It always asks which one and 
preselects one based on the current language. 

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Re: [Freedos-devel] keyb us does not work

[Tom Ehlert]

> Ok, anyway, it is not what I was expecting.
> I expect DOS to have a table of 256 scancodes to ASCII (well extended
> with 128 code-page specific characters)
> values.
there is no such table.

there are no 256 scancodes, just ~100 of them.

add keyboard state, changed by CTRL, ALT, SHIFT, ALT-GR
and prefix codes for international stuff like '`~

there is a procedure in the BIOS, that does the translation for the US
keyboard.

> I expect this table to be changed by KEYB, not to stay
> resident in memory.
as said there is only a procedure, no table. obviously, there is
somewhere some table, but is not accessible to the rest of the world.

and - last not least - this table sits in ROM.

so mkeyb (and anybody else) replaces the BIOS handling of scancode
translation by its own method.

> I just look a bit this table is BIOS related, not DOS related.
> It seems it should be pointed by interrupts vectors:
> 48 BIOS PCjr cordless keyboard translation
> 49 BIOS PCjr non-keyboard scancode translation table
> Oh well, not sure at all if it is really used by most BIOS.
> Maybe I should like inside SEABIOS code.

> This table should be used by Int 16h (BIOS).

whatever way things 'should' be done, you come a bit late.


> Maybe I should begin by trying to understand why there is keyb, and mkeyb. :-)

excellent idea

Tom


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Re: [Freedos-devel] keyb us does not work

[Paul Dufresne]

I tried to run mkeyb rather than keyb (I had also tried xkeyb).
mkeyb have worked first time.
I closed QEMU window, retried, then it wont work.
Retried, would work.

When it work, it detects the other version running:
different version of KEYB found 594003C != d0f4003c

Is it the address of KEYB instances?

In all cases, it says US don't need a keyboard handler.

So, it is a bit as if it was not always able to find previous handler.

Ok, anyway, it is not what I was expecting.
I expect DOS to have a table of 256 scancodes to ASCII (well extended
with 128 code-page specific characters)
values. I expect this table to be changed by KEYB, not to stay
resident in memory.

I just look a bit this table is BIOS related, not DOS related.
It seems it should be pointed by interrupts vectors:
48 BIOS PCjr cordless keyboard translation
49 BIOS PCjr non-keyboard scancode translation table
Oh well, not sure at all if it is really used by most BIOS.
Maybe I should like inside SEABIOS code.

This table should be used by Int 16h (BIOS).

Maybe I should begin by trying to understand why there is keyb, and mkeyb. :-)

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Re: [Freedos-devel] keyb us does not work

[Eric Auer]

Hi people,

it might be sort of obvious but...

>> US is much more usable for us.
>>
>> But then, when I type
>> keyb us
>>
>> the 2 output lines, seems to suggest that it worked.
>>
>> But I still have AZERTY (french) keyboard layout...

You possibly loaded 2 instances of keyb - the easiest
way to get US keyboard would be to UNLOAD all instances.

For example comment out the autoexec line which loads
it and then reboot. I hope the installer also avoids
loading any drivers for US keyboards: Would waste RAM.

Regards, Eric

PS: The installer should not blindly assume that users
have some keyboard related to their language, but ask.



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Re: [Freedos-devel] keyb us does not work

[Aitor Santamaría]

Hello,

I can't remember exactly how US.KEY was defined but, in most cases that I
know, PC BIOS preassumes that keyboard layout by default is US style, and
you use a "key-like" program to change it. I guess that US.KEY really makes
very few changes to current layout, thus you mostly continue to see the
same layout that you had before using KEYB US.

So first of all would be, are you using any other "keyb-like" program that
gets loaded before or after KEYB?
And if you are not, it would really mean that your BIOS has AZERTY layout
hardcoded, what sort of machine is that?

Best wishes,
Aitor



On 6 November 2016 at 05:14, Paul Dufresne  wrote:

> After installing in french, I get french keyboard...
> you might find it strange, but here in Quebec, we are totally lost
> with french keyboard.
>
> US is much more usable for us.
>
> But then, when I type
> keyb us
>
> the 2 output lines, seems to suggest that it worked.
>
> But I still have AZERTY (french) keyboard layout rather than the
> QWERTY one we are used
> here.
>
> Someone would know why?
>
> 
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Re: [Freedos-devel] keyb us does not work

[Jerome E. Shidel Jr.]

Hello Paul, 

> On Nov 6, 2016, at 12:14 AM, Paul Dufresne  wrote:
> 
> After installing in french, I get french keyboard...
> you might find it strange, but here in Quebec, we are totally lost
> with french keyboard.

Are you certain you selected the US English when you were presented with the
“Select your keyboard layout” screen. The installer preselects a layout on the
short keyboard layout list that is based on the language you are using. 

EN —> US English (No keyboard layout, OS default QWERTY)
ES —> Spanish
FR —> French
DE —> German
NL —> Netherlands

So, if you selected French as your language in the beginning (or the installer 
detects it from a previous installation), it would preselect the French Keyboard
Layout. User language and keyboard layout do different things. 

Basically, the following happens during the installation.

Language selection causes:

LANG environment variable to be set to language code and sets this in
the AUTOEXEC.BAT as well.

If additional language settings are included in the language SETLANG.BAT 
for that language, those are activated immediately and are also embedded 
in the new AUTOEXEC.BAT. This is good for adding display settings and 
whatnot. However, at present, this capability is unused.

If a custom FreeCOM shell for that language is present it uses it to replace
the default COMMAND.COM.

Keyboard layout selection causes:

The appropriate entry from that languages KEYBOARD.LST file to be spliced 
into the AUTOEXEC.BAT file. In the list, items 1-9 are reserved for the short 
keyboard layout list and from 10 on are the big scrolling “More choices” list.

It is possible that future versions of the installer will activate an 
appropriate keyboard
layout during the installation and provide the user with a test and 
verification screen. 
However, since the topic did not come up until the release date was upon us, it 
will 
not be in 1.2 RC2 or Final. The community waited far to long to request the 
keyboard
layout selection feature. 

> US is much more usable for us.
> 
> But then, when I type
> keyb us

The keyboard layouts I added use mkeyb instead of keyb, Typing,

mkeyb US 

Will cause mkeyb to revert to US English QWERTY. This may not be the case for 
all
future keyboard layouts. If they were provided, the installer could also use 
xkeyb, 
keyb and any other layout solution as well as mkeyb. Although the community 
demanded the ability to select a keyboard layout in the installer, no-one has 
provided
any. So, the entries I made are limited to the ones I felt were the most 
popular and
were provided by mkeyb. I will not be making any more of them myself. It can be
a time consuming process and I have no way to test or verify any settings I 
devise 
are correct.

Thanks, Jerome

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[Freedos-devel] keyb us does not work

[Paul Dufresne]

After installing in french, I get french keyboard...
you might find it strange, but here in Quebec, we are totally lost
with french keyboard.

US is much more usable for us.

But then, when I type
keyb us

the 2 output lines, seems to suggest that it worked.

But I still have AZERTY (french) keyboard layout rather than the
QWERTY one we are used
here.

Someone would know why?

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