Re: Beginner's definition ?
Jean-Pierre Vidal wrote: The Beginners'Leaderboard helped me to go on stage unashamed, and this is its part (do you think so, Andrew ?). Andrew Savige wrote: It worked wonderfully in this game because Peter Makholm, Jason Parker and Stephen Turner staged an epic duel right up to the final minutes In whittling some even.pl solutions, I was shocked to discover that the leading Beginner's even.pl did not belong to Peter, Jason or Stephen! Here is the final beginner's leaderboard. 1. 79 Peter Makholm 2. 79 Jason Henry Parker 3. 80 Stephen Turner 4. 85 Qingning Huo 5. 86 Aaron Trickey 6. 88 Dave Hoover But the best even.pl was from Aaron Trickey: -p ($,=aeiouy )=~s:.:|y/$//:gs;$_ x=~eval$.$,c1 53 aaron Congratulations Aaron, and apologies for not highlighting this fine effort earlier. Now I have to try to figure who was unluckier: Aaron or Jason. :) /-\ndrew
Re: Beginner's definition ?
Andrew Savige [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb im Newsbeitrag [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... | Permit me to make another observation. In Ton's game, Spiff won | on 131 strokes. Ian Phillips (141) and me (138) were in the middle | of the field. Yet if Ian and I had seen each other's solutions, | we would have posted 130 strokes and won the game! So, it brings | a new element of luck to the game as to whether your teammates | solutions happen to complement yours or not. Also, a mixed game, | with individuals competing against teams seems unfair. About your last observation: If I was to offer a team golf course, I'd accept sign-ups until a certain points, then make the teams, then publish the holes. Thereafter, I would still accept entries from others, but those then would work alone. That's seems rather fair in the sense that everybody gets to join a team if he/she wants to. The big downfall this won't cure is that this kind of golf won't attract new newbies as in: They won't enter the tournament at first because they're somewhat intimidated (please excuse my bad choice of words) and once the tasks are published, they won't enter because they don't dare enter alone. Perhaps we should stay with the traditional Perl golf. It's a great game as it is. Steffen -- $_=qq#tsee gmx.net#;s#e#s#g;s#[^\s\w]#c#;s#s#ust#g;s#t#J#e;s#nus#ker# ;chop;$c=' ';$c='12319';@c=split/(..)/,'8234130006710523';@d=split3 ,$c;chop;' at ';s#(t)ustust#$1\0ano$1;.#;y#.; #ehr#;@_=$_;shift@c,substr $_[0],$_,1,chr(ord(substr$_[0],$_)-shift@c)for$d[0]..$d[1];print$_[0]\n;
Re: Beginner's definition ?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] schreef op 03 februari 2002:
How about this?
printf%010d\n,$.,eugene: 21 strokes
-p }{$_=$.+1e9.$/^\ca ton:21 strokes
-p }{$_=$.+1e9.$/^v1 bob:20 strokes
Proving that Eugene can indeed be beaten, albeit only
after two months of analysis. ;-)
Beaten? I not understand! The Andrew-Ton collective: 90, Eugene: 89.
Besides, your solution fails for long files.
Eugene
Re: Beginner's definition ?
On Sat, 2 Feb 2002, Bill -OSX- Jones wrote:
On Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 01:40 AM, Rick Myers wrote:
s///e and s///ee really does.
e 'eval's the s/// results and ee re'eval's THAT result :)
I guess it's time for me to brag about things I did with a few /e
use strict;my$s=';pop';$_='';# 59 /e, © 2001 Philippe BooK Bruhat
*_=*ARGV;@_=qw(4a4a2bfe01ac410d0105f4fd0dae30150dfab448f90208fa0d98
pop print+chr(shift) print+chr(shift) unshift@_,(shift()+shift())x2
push@_,(pop,pop)x24 ; unshift@_,(map{unpack'c',$_}split//)[0..25] ;
s/../chr(hex$)/eg $_=substr(shift,0,52) @_=map{s|$|$s|s;$_}@_;pop)
;s//$s/eee;
:-)
Solution on http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=89199
--
Philippe BooK Bruhat
A substitute is never as good as the genuine article.
(Moral from Groo The Wanderer #67 (Epic))
RE: Beginner's definition ?
Bart Lateur wrote: What the heck can *anybody* do to improve Eugene's solution? When paricipating in Perl golf, he's virtually always in the lead. I'll play, so long as I'm in Eugene's team. ;-) A team game has never been tried (to my knowledge) so we cannot be sure whether it is a good idea or not. Personally, I favour the individual game because it seems more sadistic and because it forces the beginners to *really* get into the game and learn new stuff. In a team of four, some team members may be lazy and let others do all the work. Heck, if I was in Eugene's team, I would go lie on the beach all day so as to have a nice tan for our team's victory parade. ;-) Permit me to make another observation. In Ton's game, Spiff won on 131 strokes. Ian Phillips (141) and me (138) were in the middle of the field. Yet if Ian and I had seen each other's solutions, we would have posted 130 strokes and won the game! So, it brings a new element of luck to the game as to whether your teammates solutions happen to complement yours or not. Also, a mixed game, with individuals competing against teams seems unfair. /-\ndrew
Re: Beginner's definition ?
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
well, you can e.g. try to find a variant of:
-p /[aeiouy]?(?{$_ x=1~$.split$})/
that doesn't coredump. That could be a winner.
Ton, I *knew* you were still trying (as am I).
Maybe Ton and me are the true golf diehards, continuing
the post-mortem even after rigor mortis has set in. :)
I sure I have *no* idea what you mean.
PS, did you know you can solve entry 5 in the Santa game with
-p }{$_=$.+1e9.$/^\ca
(hard control-A)
(which is by the way another proof that seeing other solutions leads to
new inspiration. Teams will in general beat individuals).
Re: Beginner's definition ?
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
PS, did you know you can solve entry 5 in the Santa game with
-p }{$_=$.+1e9.$/^\ca
(hard control-A)
How about this?
printf%010d\n,$.,eugene: 21 strokes
-p }{$_=$.+1e9.$/^\ca ton:21 strokes
Also Bob really, since it's stealing the basic idea of the previous golf.
-p }{$_=$.+1e9.$/^v1 bob:20 strokes
Proving that Eugene can indeed be beaten, albeit only
after two months of analysis. ;-)
Aah, version strings. Very good, I was so annoyed that you couldn't enter a
literal ctrl-A :-)
Anyways, I think we've shown by now that teams beat individuals (see also
BoB in the open ircnet game).
Re: Beginner's definition ?
Andrew wrote: You will notice that Peter, Jason and Stephen are all accomplished programmers and very bright too (one has written a scheme interpreter, and at least one of them has a PhD). It is very hard for a beginner programmer to compete with them. Wow, that makes me feel a lot better about my score. I just started programming a little over a year ago. The term beginner can mean a lot of different things! Those guys may be tough to compete with, but it's great to have people with that kind of talent in the competition, it keeps you looking for better solutions because you know they're one step ahead of you. --Dave __ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com
Re: Beginner's definition ?
Dave Hoover [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Andrew wrote: You will notice that Peter, Jason and Stephen are all accomplished programmers and very bright too (one has written a scheme interpreter, and at least one of them has a PhD). It is very hard for a beginner programmer to compete with them. That's a wonderful thing to read of someone's opinions of my skills. Those guys may be tough to compete with, but it's great to have people with that kind of talent in the competition, it keeps you looking for better solutions because you know they're one step ahead of you. Indeed. I never would have done as well as I did if Peter had not been in the game. The *drive* to find that one extra character distracted me so much I didn't notice the competition had closed. jason -- |||---||--|---|--|---|-#---|-|--|--|| | The way you tell your story http://linux.org.au/conf/ | | With no tears for yourself [EMAIL PROTECTED] | ||--||--||-|--|-|-|-|
Re: Beginner's definition ?
On Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 07:02:11PM +1100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: programmer beginner. You will notice that Peter, Jason and Stephen are all accomplished programmers and very bright too (one has written a scheme interpreter, and at least one of them has a PhD). It is very hard for a beginner programmer to compete with them. Not to mention the fastest log analyser in the west. :-) I was actually wondering about whether people should post affiliations to pm groups too? I'm part of cam.pm, as is Stephen. BooK is obviously part of paris.pm, and Piers, a part of the infamous Buffy Worshippers... (I don't know about others). Then it becomes a real team game. :-) MBM -- Matthew Byng-Maddick [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://colondot.net/
Re: Beginner's definition ?
On Fri, 1 Feb 2002, Matthew Byng-Maddick wrote: On Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 07:02:11PM +1100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: programmer beginner. You will notice that Peter, Jason and Stephen are all accomplished programmers and very bright too (one has written a scheme interpreter, and at least one of them has a PhD). It is very hard for a beginner programmer to compete with them. Not to mention the fastest log analyser in the west. :-) Yes, I admit it. I'm not a beginner programmer, and I do have a Ph.D.! I haven't done much Perl though, and never any Perl golf, so I declared myself to be a beginner. I agree that the term is not well defined, but also that it's hard to make it better without setting up onerous formal rules. Anyway, I think as I only missed out on the beginner's prize by one stroke, I'm going to promote myself to the main division next time. -- Stephen Turner, Cambridge, UKhttp://homepage.ntlworld.com/adelie/stephen/ This is Henman's 8th Wimbledon, and he's only lost 7 matches. BBC, 2/Jul/01
Re: Beginner's definition ?
En réponse à Matthew Byng-Maddick [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I was actually wondering about whether people should post affiliations to pm groups too? I'm part of cam.pm, as is Stephen. BooK is obviously part of paris.pm, and Piers, a part of the infamous Buffy Worshippers... Er, why obviously? It isn't advertised in my .sig or in a mail header... (I don't know about others). Then it becomes a real team game. :-) Yeah, I like the idea of various Perl Mongers groups competing in a team game. And there's the tricky part of helping your team without giving away your solution (if you want to score as an individual player too). -- Philippe BRUHAT - BooK When you run from your problem, you make it that much harder for good fortune to catch you, as well. (Moral from Groo The Wanderer #14 (Epic))
Re: Beginner's definition ?
On 01/02/2002 08:02:11 Andrew.Savige wrote: [snip] You might even have a third novice section to generate some excitement for the golfer who is both a Perl beginner and a programmer beginner. You will notice that Peter, Jason and Stephen are all accomplished programmers and very bright too (one has written a scheme interpreter, and at least one of them has a PhD). It is very hard for a beginner programmer to compete with them. Beginner _programmers_ should not play golf (perhaps not even watch). They need to learn to use the language before abusing it. Perl Golf should come with a warning label, something like: This code was created by a professional programmer on a closed-circuit mailinglist. Not for general use :-) I'm in programming for nearly ten years (Perl nearly a year), and some of this stuff gives me headaches, even after passing through B::Deparse :-) Csaba -- Csaba Ráduly, Software Engineer Sophos Anti-Virus email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.sophos..com US Support: +1 888 SOPHOS 9 UK Support: +44 1235 559933
Re: Beginner's definition ?
- Original Message - From: Jérôme Quelin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Beginner's definition ? Le Vendredi 1 Février 2002 12:31, Steffen Müller a écrit : What about offering pre-game sign-ups and randomly creating groups of 4-5 players who are then supposed to submit one entry? That would be a great opportunity for beginners to learn from the pros. I would certainly participate in such a game of golf. That would be great, but I fear that each group will only follow its natural leader. I mean, what the heck could a beginner do to improve Eugene's solution? You're right. Though I can only speak for myself, I can comfortably say that *I* could not improve his solution (or that of some others). I did, however, understand most of the solutions after taking an admittedly very close look at them. Additionally, many of the pro's put quite some work into their solutions, so eventually, they started with something that I might have been able to slightly improve. By the way: I wouldn't assume there is always one pro per group - there might very well be 2 or more. Maybe peer review will result in a few interesting ideas. Steffen -- $_=qq#tsee gmx.net#;s#e#s#g;s#[^\s\w]#c#;s#s#ust#g;s#t#J#e;s#nus#ker# ;chop;$c=' ';$c='12319';@c=split/(..)/,'8234130006710523';@d=split3 ,$c;chop;' at ';s#(t)ustust#$1\0ano$1;.#;y#.; #ehr#;@_=$_;shift@c,substr $_[0],$_,1,chr(ord(substr$_[0],$_)-shift@c)for$d[0]..$d[1];print$_[0]\n;
Re: Beginner's definition ?
- Original Message - From: Piers Cawley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Steffen Müller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 12:43 PM Subject: Re: Beginner's definition ? Steffen Müller [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What about offering pre-game sign-ups and randomly creating groups of 4-5 players who are then supposed to submit one entry? That would be a great opportunity for beginners to learn from the pros. I would certainly participate in such a game of golf. Tell you what, why don't you organize one? It sounds like a jolly good idea though. Thanks. To be honest, I don't have the expertise Andrew has shown. Though his BoB eventually lost against other people's twisted code, I would hardly be able to compete in the beginners board. Steffen -- $_=qq#tsee gmx.net#;s#e#s#g;s#[^\s\w]#c#;s#s#ust#g;s#t#J#e;s#nus#ker# ;chop;$c=' ';$c='12319';@c=split/(..)/,'8234130006710523';@d=split3 ,$c;chop;' at ';s#(t)ustust#$1\0ano$1;.#;y#.; #ehr#;@_=$_;shift@c,substr $_[0],$_,1,chr(ord(substr$_[0],$_)-shift@c)for$d[0]..$d[1];print$_[0]\n;
Re: Beginner's definition ?
Le Vendredi 1 Février 2002 12:31, Steffen Müller a écrit : What about offering pre-game sign-ups and randomly creating groups of 4-5 players who are then supposed to submit one entry? That would be a great opportunity for beginners to learn from the pros. I would certainly participate in such a game of golf. That would be great, but I fear that each group will only follow its natural leader. I mean, what the heck could a beginner do to improve Eugene's solution? Jerome -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Beginner's definition ?
On Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:37:40 +0100, Jérôme Quelin wrote: I mean, what the heck could a beginner do to improve Eugene's solution? What the heck can *anybody* do to improve Eugene's solution? When paricipating in Perl golf, he's virtually always in the lead. -- Bart.
Re: [JaxPM] Re: Beginner's definition ?
That is true - very few of us Jax.PM'ers are local :(
On Friday, February 1, 2002, at 12:45 PM, J Proctor wrote:
On the jacksonville-pm-list; Jax.PM'er J Proctor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote -
I would love to OFFER my groups skills to such an event - we would
mop the floor with the other groups!
What event are you volunteering us for?
And/or is it something I might want to do with my own PM group? :)
j
_Sx
('-Sx- IUDICIUM
//\ Have Computer -
v_/_Will Hack...
Re: Beginner's definition ?
On Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:37:40 +0100, Jérôme Quelin wrote: I mean, what the heck could a beginner do to improve Eugene's solution? What the heck can *anybody* do to improve Eugene's solution? I bet Eugene hasn't finished with it yet... Jonathan Paton __ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com
Re: Beginner's definition ?
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED],
Jonathan E. Paton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:37:40 +0100, Jérôme Quelin wrote:
I mean, what the heck could a beginner do to improve
Eugene's solution?
What the heck can *anybody* do to improve Eugene's
solution?
I bet Eugene hasn't finished with it yet...
well, you can e.g. try to find a variant of:
-p /[aeiouy]?(?{$_ x=1~$.split$})/
that doesn't coredump. That could be a winner.
Re: Beginner's definition ?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Beginner _programmers_ should not play golf (perhaps not even watch). They need to learn to use the language before abusing it. Perl Golf should come with a warning label, something like: This code was created by a professional programmer on a closed-circuit mailinglist. Not for general use :-) There are at least three elements of Perl Golf that I _do_ wish beginner programmers would learn: 1) Don't stop after finding the first algorithm that solves a given problem - there may be a better algorithm. 2) Don't stop after find the first implementation of an algorithm - there may be a better way to implement it. 3) Read through _all_ the functions, _all_ the operators, _all_ the syntax, and _all_ the special variables, etc. If it takes playing Perl Golf to learn these programming rules, so be it... -- Rick Klement
Re: Beginner's definition ?
and we can have a golf game to see who can write the program to handle the database! Kye. *shivers*
Re: Beginner's definition ?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : Jean-Pierre Vidal wrote: What is the definition of a beginner? [snip] Thank you for all your answers. I like Yanick's Zen approach, supported by Peter. I hope that Ton's sentence... In fact, maybe we should drop the whole expert/beginner thing and have a PGA rating. is nothing but a joke (cf. Kye's answer) So, considering all this, I will enter the next golf - no doubt, it will rise someday - as an expert|beginner golfer : I had fun golfing teven, this is the goal, isn't it? The Beginners'Leaderboard helped me to go on stage unashamed, and this is its part (do you think so, Andrew ?). I apoligize to you for my approximative english Jean-Pierre Vidal -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Beginner's definition ?
Jean-Pierre Vidal wrote: I like Yanick's Zen approach, supported by Peter. So do I. Jean-Pierre Vidal wrote: The Beginners'Leaderboard helped me to go on stage unashamed, and this is its part (do you think so, Andrew ?). I was shocked at how successful the Beginner's Leaderboard was. I did not have one in Santa's game and stole the idea from Ton. I honestly was not thinking about being people being ashamed. I just wanted to stimulate competition and excitement for the average golfer who had no realistic chance of beating Eugene. It worked wonderfully in this game because Peter Makholm, Jason Parker and Stephen Turner staged an epic duel right up to the final minutes (Jason unluckily posting a winning bid 20 minutes too late). That happened by chance, however, and you cannot expect such excitement in every game. You might even have a third novice section to generate some excitement for the golfer who is both a Perl beginner and a programmer beginner. You will notice that Peter, Jason and Stephen are all accomplished programmers and very bright too (one has written a scheme interpreter, and at least one of them has a PhD). It is very hard for a beginner programmer to compete with them. /-\ndrew
Beginner's definition ?
Hello, What is the definition of a beginner? I think anybody is a beginner the first time (s)he plays golf. Is this correct? thks Jean-Pierre
Re: Beginner's definition ?
Jean-Pierre Vidal wrote: What is the definition of a beginner? I think anybody is a beginner the first time (s)he plays golf. Is this correct? Well, I suppose it is up to the tournament host. It will be interesting to see what Eugene does for the Dutch Masters. Since I have never actually met anyone on the fwp mailing list, it is a bit hard for me to judge. So, I said you are a beginner if you claim to be one and such a claim does not generate *mad cackles* from the list. I was happy to allow people who were classified as a beginner in previous games to continue on as a beginner in my game. It seems a little harsh to ban Bill Jones, for example, from competing as a beginner in the next game, just because he has competed in this one. /-\ndrew.
Re: Beginner's definition ?
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Jean-Pierre Vidal wrote:
What is the definition of a beginner?
I think anybody is a beginner the first time (s)he plays golf.
Is this correct?
Well, I suppose it is up to the tournament host.
It will be interesting to see what Eugene does for
the Dutch Masters.
Hehe, since I'm dutch too (even though I post from a belgian address), in
a sense we already had a Dutch Open.
Since I have never actually met anyone on the fwp
mailing list, it is a bit hard for me to judge.
So, I said you are a beginner if you claim to be one and
such a claim does not generate *mad cackles* from the list.
I tend to define a golf beginner as
is not yet very familiar with the classic perl golf tricks.
If i see someone using -p }{ and $; to save a space, I don't really
consider him a beginner.
I was happy to allow people who were classified as a beginner
in previous games to continue on as a beginner in my game.
It seems a little harsh to ban Bill Jones, for example, from
competing as a beginner in the next game, just because he
has competed in this one.
Maybe any beginners that are close enough to the final winner should be
promoted automatically.
In fact, maybe we should drop the whole expert/beginner thing and have a
PGA rating.
Something like: in one game the winner gets 100 points, others get one
less for each stroke worse (cut of at 0)
new_rating = (9 * old_rating + game_score)/10
(possibly weighted depending on the game)
not playing is -2, unless you host the game.
Everybody starts at 75, you can't go below 0
Re: Beginner's definition ?
Jean-Pierre Vidal wrote: What is the definition of a beginner? I think anybody is a beginner the first time (s)he plays golf. Is this correct? Here, I would take the Zen approach and say that beginnership is something personal. If you turn your gaze inward (metaphorically speaking, unless you want to freak out the kids), you will know if you are. And, likewise, you will just know when you will step out of beginnerdom and boldly take your first steps into the dark woods that stretch beyond its frontiers. And of course, stepping out of beginnerdom is not the end of the trek. Long is the way before one can be truly called a master. For instance I can't, I guess, be called a beginner anymore. However, I'm merely being generally silly, whereas the true masters are demented. :) Ton Hospel wrote: In fact, maybe we should drop the whole expert/beginner thing and have a PGA rating. Something like: in one game the winner gets 100 points, others get one less for each stroke worse (cut of at 0) new_rating = (9 * old_rating + game_score)/10 (possibly weighted depending on the game) not playing is -2, unless you host the game. Everybody starts at 75, you can't go below 0 Ooooh... That could be amusing... Joy, `/anick -- Beginnership Down? So who is Kee-Harr? \| / o _D_
Re: Beginner's definition ?
hiya guys.. :)
I tend to define a golf beginner as
is not yet very familiar with the classic perl golf tricks.
If i see someone using -p }{ and $; to save a space, I don't really
consider him a beginner.
I would definitely consider myself a beginner (I tried to compete
in the last one but didn't manage to actually submit my entry
due to some technical hitches) but I shot a round of 210.
blowing away the battle for last place!
I do however, have an understanding of the -p }{ and $; tricks
because they are common golf tricks, and have been discussed in
previous rounds..
i'm also familiar enough with perl to write programs that do things
in the real world..
what i'm not familiar with is the way in which you combine syntax
to produce programs that do things that your code doesn't explicitly
define..
what I would define as the difference between a beginner and a
more experienced golfer is that beginners can code perl because
they can use the commands to write a program, and more experienced
golfers can understand the way the program data and control flows
through the commands you give it to generate the right result.
it's almost like beginners write code that tells the perl engine
what to do, and more experienced golfers write code that directs
the engine to perform the intended task.
I was happy to allow people who were classified as a beginner
in previous games to continue on as a beginner in my game.
It seems a little harsh to ban Bill Jones, for example, from
competing as a beginner in the next game, just because he
has competed in this one.
Maybe any beginners that are close enough to the final winner should be
promoted automatically.
it's reasonably obvious from the scores who is good and who is a
genius.. if you've got the leader in the beginner section with 28
less shots than the pack, then maybe there's an issue there..
but realistically, it's not about winning is it? (and i've not got
the sense from the list that it's about that either) more about
playing well and thinking creatively.. :)
i'm happy with my solution, because it did something tricky, despite
the fact I didn't submit it, and it was coming convincingly last.. :)
I just hope to get on the leaderboard next time and have some more
fun :)
In fact, maybe we should drop the whole expert/beginner thing and have a
PGA rating.
Something like: in one game the winner gets 100 points, others get one
less for each stroke worse (cut of at 0)
new_rating = (9 * old_rating + game_score)/10
(possibly weighted depending on the game)
not playing is -2, unless you host the game.
Everybody starts at 75, you can't go below 0
and we can have a golf game to see who can write the program to handle
the database!
Kye.
Kye Leslie: Helpdesk Officer
- Need some help? -
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
