Re: [h-cost] colonial
--- Suzi Clarke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The polonaising also doesn't seem right to me. A polonaise on an English robe, yes, but on a sack? I've been looking through what books I can lay my hands on, and I haven't yet seen a sack-backed gown that is polonaised. The polonaise also isn't deep enough. Regarding the polonaising only - not had time to check out the other stuff - there are at least two polonaised sacks in collections that I have seen, one in Bath, and one in the Museum of London. Also I am sure there are many sketches/fashion plates showing this, usually in the 1770's. I think the French artist Moreau le Jeune shows this, but they may be retroussee dans les poches, which gives a similar look. Of course, now that you've said that, I think I *do* remember seeing pictures of polonaised sacks - or they may have been retroussee dans les poches, too. ( Blame up-too-late-at-night brain. ) But, if a gown was polonaised, weren't they usually polonaised at/from the back, not pulling the gown back from the centre front, as this one is? That is probably the thing which is most wrong about this gown, and made me think that an attempt had been made to alter it to suit a fashion from approx. 100 years later. http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/101523900/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/101523898/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/101523897/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/101523896/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/101523899/ Actually, now I come to think about it a bit more, I wonder if it is just that the sellers don't understand where the skirt should be draped from to make the polonaise, so that instead of pulling the skirt up from the back, they pulled it back from the front. Hm I still would really like to have a good look at this gown in the flesh ( as it were ) or failing that, on a dress dummy that is the right size, height, and shape for it. And with the skirt polonaised the right way. :-) Joannah ~*~ Practice random acts of kindness, and senseless acts of beauty. ~*~ _ Sluggy.Net: The Sluggy Freelance Community! ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] colonial
But, if a gown was polonaised, weren't they usually polonaised at/from the back, not pulling the gown back from the centre front, as this one is? That is probably the thing which is most wrong about this gown, and made me think that an attempt had been made to alter it to suit a fashion from approx. 100 years later. http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/101523900/ For the link above - I wish I could see the front a bit better! See the ruching that goes (apparently) all the way up to the neckline? And it's not close to the body, not exact center front. It looks like a gown open from the neck down and worn with a zone, which is kind of like an upside-down stomacher. Instead of a V shape, what shows is an A shape, although the zone may be pointed at the bottom. Since that particular gown sweeps back from the neckline, I think it's dressed correctly. I had not seen polonaised saques, either. (And of course I started looking *after* I made one...) They appear to be fairly rare, since it disrupts the long, flowing line from the back. It seems like polonaising was done different ways and to different degrees, no set rule, and I'm sure some in the 18thC did it badly! -Carol ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] colonial
Or maybe, the underskirt opposite of the main body of the dress, so if the dress is light with dark flowers, make the underskirt dark with light flowers. Sharon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Diana Habra Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 11:24 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] colonial Perhaps a very faint hint of color of purple/ blue (periwinkle?) for the dress material with eggshell white bows and underskirt. If you have the split, were you thinking of a quilted underskirt or leaving it plan? For a split skirt, I would decorate the underskirt or make it a different color. I was thinking of making a quilted underskirt but it may just be a petticoat that I can use later with a pet-en-l'air jacket or something like that. Diana www.RenaissanceFabrics.net Everything for the Costumer Become the change you want to see in the world. --Ghandi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] colonial
Or maybe, the underskirt opposite of the main body of the dress, so if the dress is light with dark flowers, make the underskirt dark with light flowers. Sharon Wow...I hadn't thought of that and it would probably work really well! Thanks for the idea :~ Diana www.RenaissanceFabrics.net Everything for the Costumer Become the change you want to see in the world. --Ghandi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] colonial
In a message dated 2/17/2006 10:46:35 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: the underskirt opposite of the main body of the dress, so if the dress is light with dark flowers, make the underskirt dark with light flowers. Along these lines, if you find a brocade you like, you can often use the opposite face of the brocade for a usually rather subtle contrast. Ann Wass ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] colonial
--- Diana Habra [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ooo...look what I found. http://www.vintagetextile.com/new_page_238.htm De I LOVE this website! I know that they show the details to help sell the clothing but it is AWESOME for us historical costumers that may not ever get to study garments like these in person. Thanks so much for sharing! I am trying to design my wedding gown which will roughly be from this period and I am trying to find out all I can about construction techniques. This new colonial dress will be a big help. Diana I agree, it's a truly lovely gown. The silk is to die for. Is it just me, or does anyone else think that someone had a go at remodeling it to suit a much later fashion? It certainly isn't helped by being mounted on a stand which isn't tall enough, but it seems to me that the petticoat is the wrong shape - it's too narrow - and something about the top ruffle doesn't look right to me. Wouldn't they have repeated the lace embellishment that is above the bottom ruffle? the info with the pictures says that the brocade doesn't extend all the way to the back - could some of the silk have been cut away, to make the petticoat less full and change the silhouette, and then used to make the top ruffle? The polonaising also doesn't seem right to me. A polonaise on an English robe, yes, but on a sack? I've been looking through what books I can lay my hands on, and I haven't yet seen a sack-backed gown that is polonaised. The polonaise also isn't deep enough. The lapels on the bodice and the front of the bodice are also don't look right. The bottom of the lapels don't seem to be finished properly. They don't have anywhere to go or to fit. Have they been unpicked from the front of the skirt, which was then moved back, making the split down the front wider? These are some pictures of the styles that this dress in its current state remind me of: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/100837015/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/100837016/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/100837017/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/100837019/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/100837018/in/photostream/ Of course, I may be completely wrong about all this. :-) ( I *really* would LOVE to be able to examine this garment close up! ) Any other comments? Joannah ~*~ Practice random acts of kindness, and senseless acts of beauty. ~*~ _ Sluggy.Net: The Sluggy Freelance Community! ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] colonial
At 17:35 17/02/2006, you wrote: --- Diana Habra [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ooo...look what I found. http://www.vintagetextile.com/new_page_238.htm De I LOVE this website! I know that they show the details to help sell the clothing but it is AWESOME for us historical costumers that may not ever get to study garments like these in person. Thanks so much for sharing! I am trying to design my wedding gown which will roughly be from this period and I am trying to find out all I can about construction techniques. This new colonial dress will be a big help. Diana I agree, it's a truly lovely gown. The silk is to die for. Is it just me, or does anyone else think that someone had a go at remodeling it to suit a much later fashion? It certainly isn't helped by being mounted on a stand which isn't tall enough, but it seems to me that the petticoat is the wrong shape - it's too narrow - and something about the top ruffle doesn't look right to me. Wouldn't they have repeated the lace embellishment that is above the bottom ruffle? the info with the pictures says that the brocade doesn't extend all the way to the back - could some of the silk have been cut away, to make the petticoat less full and change the silhouette, and then used to make the top ruffle? The polonaising also doesn't seem right to me. A polonaise on an English robe, yes, but on a sack? I've been looking through what books I can lay my hands on, and I haven't yet seen a sack-backed gown that is polonaised. The polonaise also isn't deep enough. Regarding the polonaising only - not had time to check out the other stuff - there are at least two polonaised sacks in collections that I have seen, one in Bath, and one in the Museum of London. Also I am sure there are many sketches/fashion plates showing this, usually in the 1770's. I think the French artist Moreau le Jeune shows this, but they may be retroussee dans les poches, which gives a similar look. The lapels on the bodice and the front of the bodice are also don't look right. The bottom of the lapels don't seem to be finished properly. They don't have anywhere to go or to fit. They often don't, according to Costume in Detail by Nancy Bradfield, unless I have read the pictures wrongly. They frequently just stop, in mid air as it were. Have they been unpicked from the front of the skirt, which was then moved back, making the split down the front wider? These are some pictures of the styles that this dress in its current state remind me of: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/100837015/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/100837016/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/100837017/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/100837019/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/100837018/in/photostream/ Of course, I may be completely wrong about all this. :-) ( I *really* would LOVE to be able to examine this garment close up! ) Suzi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] colonial
Hi Joannah, There is in fact a sack backed english weddinggown with polonaise lift ups in the back. Se Norah Waughs the cut of Womens Clothes. White satin... Bjarne - Original Message - From: Joannah Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 6:35 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] colonial --- Diana Habra [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ooo...look what I found. http://www.vintagetextile.com/new_page_238.htm De I LOVE this website! I know that they show the details to help sell the clothing but it is AWESOME for us historical costumers that may not ever get to study garments like these in person. Thanks so much for sharing! I am trying to design my wedding gown which will roughly be from this period and I am trying to find out all I can about construction techniques. This new colonial dress will be a big help. Diana I agree, it's a truly lovely gown. The silk is to die for. Is it just me, or does anyone else think that someone had a go at remodeling it to suit a much later fashion? It certainly isn't helped by being mounted on a stand which isn't tall enough, but it seems to me that the petticoat is the wrong shape - it's too narrow - and something about the top ruffle doesn't look right to me. Wouldn't they have repeated the lace embellishment that is above the bottom ruffle? the info with the pictures says that the brocade doesn't extend all the way to the back - could some of the silk have been cut away, to make the petticoat less full and change the silhouette, and then used to make the top ruffle? The polonaising also doesn't seem right to me. A polonaise on an English robe, yes, but on a sack? I've been looking through what books I can lay my hands on, and I haven't yet seen a sack-backed gown that is polonaised. The polonaise also isn't deep enough. The lapels on the bodice and the front of the bodice are also don't look right. The bottom of the lapels don't seem to be finished properly. They don't have anywhere to go or to fit. Have they been unpicked from the front of the skirt, which was then moved back, making the split down the front wider? These are some pictures of the styles that this dress in its current state remind me of: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/100837015/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/100837016/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/100837017/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/100837019/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/100837018/in/photostream/ Of course, I may be completely wrong about all this. :-) ( I *really* would LOVE to be able to examine this garment close up! ) Any other comments? Joannah ~*~ Practice random acts of kindness, and senseless acts of beauty. ~*~ _ Sluggy.Net: The Sluggy Freelance Community! ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] colonial
Diana said, For a split skirt, I would decorate the underskirt or make it a different color. I was thinking of making a quilted underskirt but it may just be a petticoat that I can use later with a pet-en-l'air jacket or something like that. It depends on how close to actual 18th century you want to make it, and then what social class, time of day, etc. More formal open-front gowns have a petticoat of the same fabric, possibly decorated with self-fabric ruching and flounces (same as the gown). A petticoat of a different fabric is more of an undress look - your serviceable wool gown is not as likely to have the same fabric for the petticoat. Quilted petticoats are lovely, or you can use a Marseilles cloth (a double weave) which was also done in the 18th century. It's also not a formal or evening type of look. Generally a lady would decorate the stomacher or neckline of the gown to draw the eye up, rather than use a different color petticoat which might draw the eye away from the face and neckline. -Carol ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] colonial
There are two gowns here in our collection at the Nova Scotia, made from the same, or similar fabrics, one is in it's original condition, the other has been remade to the end of the 18thC fashions...very cool. It is my hope to one day take patterns from them both, you know, someday when I have a bit of time! ;-) Kelly in NS - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 3:26 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] colonial In a message dated 2/17/2006 12:37:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Is it just me, or does anyone else think that someone had a go at remodeling it to suit a much later fashion? That would certainly not be uncommon. It is extremely difficult to find an 18th century gown that hasn't been re-modeled, as the fabric was so expensive! In fact, a curator friend of mine says that an 18th century gown in its original condition would be the Holy Grail of costume finds. Ann Wass ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] colonial
Hi, Yes this picture is at a museum in London, I have studyed it there in person a coupple of times. The size of the picture dissapointed me a little, as it is a very small picture. Its a lovely dress. Bjarne - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 10:23 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] colonial In a message dated 2/15/2006 3:57:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Fran%C3%A7ois_Boucher_019.jpg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Fran%C3%A7ois_Boucher_018.jpg The color seems off in these pics. Anyway, Glen Close wears a replica of this gown [in a dark teal with pink roses and bows] in Dangerous Liaisons in the only scene where all the main characters are together, at the Salon, listening to the castrate singing Handel. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] colonial
Perhaps a very faint hint of color of purple/ blue (periwinkle?) for the dress material with eggshell white bows and underskirt. If you have the split, were you thinking of a quilted underskirt or leaving it plan? For a split skirt, I would decorate the underskirt or make it a different color. I was thinking of making a quilted underskirt but it may just be a petticoat that I can use later with a pet-en-l'air jacket or something like that. Diana www.RenaissanceFabrics.net Everything for the Costumer Become the change you want to see in the world. --Ghandi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] colonial
Oooo wedding dress!:) What color? De -Original Message- Thanks so much for sharing! I am trying to design my wedding gown which will roughly be from this period and I am trying to find out all I can about construction techniques. This new colonial dress will be a big help. Diana ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] colonial
Holy Crapola, that dress is beautiful, but really badly mounted. So I wouldn't trust all of their information, especially about the gown meeting edge to edge at the centrefront. I wish they had taken the time to mount the dress proprely, then you would be able to see all it's glory in the photos...they are great photos, I'm bummed ;-( If you are interested in more information about dresses from this time period, check out Janet Arnold's book on this period, also Louisbourg National Historic Site, published booklets on clothing from this time period a few years back, they are complete with patterns and tailoring details. Their website is http://fortress.uccb.ns.ca/ , you may be able to contact them for a copy. For those who are interested in this era, come join me and a few hundred others at Louisbourg's Grande Encampment this year! Kelly/estela - Original Message - From: Diana Habra [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 2:11 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] colonial Ooo...look what I found. http://www.vintagetextile.com/new_page_238.htm De I LOVE this website! I know that they show the details to help sell the clothing but it is AWESOME for us historical costumers that may not ever get to study garments like these in person. Thanks so much for sharing! I am trying to design my wedding gown which will roughly be from this period and I am trying to find out all I can about construction techniques. This new colonial dress will be a big help. Diana www.RenaissanceFabrics.net Everything for the Costumer Become the change you want to see in the world. --Ghandi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] colonial
Oh, we wants it, preciouss..yes, we do. --Sue, apparently channeling Gollum this morning - Original Message - From: otsisto [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historic Costume h-costume@mail.indra.com Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 9:29 PM Subject: [h-cost] colonial Ooo...look what I found. http://www.vintagetextile.com/new_page_238.htm De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] colonial
Holy Crapola, that dress is beautiful, but really badly mounted. So I wouldn't trust all of their information, especially about the gown meeting edge to edge at the centrefront. I wish they had taken the time to mount the dress proprely, then you would be able to see all it's glory in the photos...they are great photos, I'm bummed ;-( If you are interested in more information about dresses from this time period, check out Janet Arnold's book on this period, also Louisbourg National Historic Site, published booklets on clothing from this time period a few years back, they are complete with patterns and tailoring details. Their website is http://fortress.uccb.ns.ca/ , you may be able to contact them for a copy. For those who are interested in this era, come join me and a few hundred others at Louisbourg's Grande Encampment this year! Kelly/estela - Original Message - From: Diana Habra [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 2:11 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] colonial Ooo...look what I found. http://www.vintagetextile.com/new_page_238.htm De I LOVE this website! I know that they show the details to help sell the clothing but it is AWESOME for us historical costumers that may not ever get to study garments like these in person. Thanks so much for sharing! I am trying to design my wedding gown which will roughly be from this period and I am trying to find out all I can about construction techniques. This new colonial dress will be a big help. Diana www.RenaissanceFabrics.net Everything for the Costumer Become the change you want to see in the world. --Ghandi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume www.RenaissanceFabrics.net Everything for the Costumer Become the change you want to see in the world. --Ghandi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] colonial
Oooo wedding dress!:) What color? De Well, that has been the hardest part. I want to do a white-ish color white, cream, chanpagne, etc.) but my accent color is a deep purple-blue. I originally intended to make it white with the blue accents but the contrast is so big! I am still trying to figure out how to do it. I am very inspired by this painting: http://www.nga.gov/cgi-bin/pimage?32697+0+0 But I also like the split-skirt style like the garment just posted. Sighso many ideas and I only get to choose one! Diana www.RenaissanceFabrics.net Everything for the Costumer Become the change you want to see in the world. --Ghandi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] colonial
Holy Crapola, that dress is beautiful, but really badly mounted. So I wouldn't trust all of their information, especially about the gown meeting edge to edge at the centrefront. I wish they had taken the time to mount the dress proprely, then you would be able to see all it's glory in the photos...they are great photos, I'm bummed ;-( Sorry, I hit send accidently! If you think that one is mounted badly, check this one out: http://www.vintagetextile.com/new_page_431.htm I LOVE this jacket, but it looks so awful there! If you are interested in more information about dresses from this time period, check out Janet Arnold's book on this period, I have the book but I don't remember many construction pictures in it. And I work much better from pictures than somebody's description. I will take a look at it again now that I know more about the period. also Louisbourg National Historic Site, published booklets on clothing from this time period a few years back, they are complete with patterns and tailoring details. Their website is http://fortress.uccb.ns.ca/ , you may be able to contact them for a copy. Thanks, I will check it out. Diana www.RenaissanceFabrics.net Everything for the Costumer Become the change you want to see in the world. --Ghandi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] colonial
Yowza thats lovely! Hmmm, it seems that the measurements that they give are exactly my measurements in a corset Now for that winning lottery ticket. :0) Sheridan From: otsisto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2006/02/14 Tue PM 11:29:31 EST To: Historic Costume h-costume@mail.indra.com Subject: [h-cost] colonial Ooo...look what I found. http://www.vintagetextile.com/new_page_238.htm De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] colonial
At 08:04 AM 2/15/2006, you wrote: [anip] If you are interested in more information about dresses from this time period, check out Janet Arnold's book on this period, I have the book but I don't remember many construction pictures in it. And I work much better from pictures than somebody's description. I will take a look at it again now that I know more about the period. also Louisbourg National Historic Site, published booklets on clothing from this time period a few years back, they are complete with patterns and tailoring details. Their website is http://fortress.uccb.ns.ca/ , you may be able to contact them for a copy. Thanks, I will check it out. Diana Check out The Cut of Women's Clothing. I can't lay my hands on my copy at the moment :-(, but there are many cutting diagrams in the back. Joan Jurancich [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] colonial
Hi, This has ben my dream to make for many many years, it is so lovely. By the way, this portrait is one of the reasons that i keep on saying that cartridge pleating was used in 18th century, even though the 18th century womens list has disagreed. They claim it never was used, but how would you pleat this skirt otherwise? Bjarne - Original Message - From: Diana Habra [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 4:55 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] colonial Oooo wedding dress!:) What color? De Well, that has been the hardest part. I want to do a white-ish color white, cream, chanpagne, etc.) but my accent color is a deep purple-blue. I originally intended to make it white with the blue accents but the contrast is so big! I am still trying to figure out how to do it. I am very inspired by this painting: http://www.nga.gov/cgi-bin/pimage?32697+0+0 But I also like the split-skirt style like the garment just posted. Sighso many ideas and I only get to choose one! Diana www.RenaissanceFabrics.net Everything for the Costumer Become the change you want to see in the world. --Ghandi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] colonial
I was looking up the artist and found this lovely picture. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Fran%C3%A7ois_Boucher_019.jpg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Fran%C3%A7ois_Boucher_018.jpg If I was interested in the period and had the figure I would love a dress like this. Madame Pompadour has some nice dresses http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Fran%C3%A7ois_Boucher_017.jpg De -Original Message- I am very inspired by this painting: http://www.nga.gov/cgi-bin/pimage?32697+0+0 But I also like the split-skirt style like the garment just posted. Sighso many ideas and I only get to choose one! Diana ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] colonial
This shows some other portraits of similar fullness of skirt. Click on the picture for bigger picture and info in Spanish. Then click on that picture with enlargement features (note: 200% is fuzzy) http://pintura.aut.org/BU04?Autnum=11680Empnum=0Inicio=46 I'm not sure, cartridge pleating looks possible. Some techniques usually don't disappear so easily. De -Original Message- Hi, This has ben my dream to make for many many years, it is so lovely. By the way, this portrait is one of the reasons that i keep on saying that cartridge pleating was used in 18th century, even though the 18th century womens list has disagreed. They claim it never was used, but how would you pleat this skirt otherwise? Bjarne ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] colonial
- Original Message - From: otsisto [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 9:55 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] colonial This shows some other portraits of similar fullness of skirt. Click on the picture for bigger picture and info in Spanish. Then click on that picture with enlargement features (note: 200% is fuzzy) http://pintura.aut.org/BU04?Autnum=11680Empnum=0Inicio=46 I'm not sure, cartridge pleating looks possible. Some techniques usually don't disappear so easily. You also clearly sees her wooden busk trough the bodice, this i never noticed before. This must be a heavy duchesse satin, and imagine to pleat so much width into such a small waist, you really must use cartridge pleats :-) sorry i keep on Bjarne ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] colonial
In a message dated 2/15/2006 3:57:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Fran%C3%A7ois_Boucher_019.jpg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Fran%C3%A7ois_Boucher_018.jpg The color seems off in these pics. Anyway, Glen Close wears a replica of this gown [in a dark teal with pink roses and bows] in Dangerous Liaisons in the only scene where all the main characters are together, at the Salon, listening to the castrate singing Handel. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] colonial
At 01:11 PM 2/15/2006, you wrote: - Original Message - From: otsisto [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 9:55 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] colonial This shows some other portraits of similar fullness of skirt. Click on the picture for bigger picture and info in Spanish. Then click on that picture with enlargement features (note: 200% is fuzzy) http://pintura.aut.org/BU04?Autnum=11680Empnum=0Inicio=46 I'm not sure, cartridge pleating looks possible. Some techniques usually don't disappear so easily. You also clearly sees her wooden busk trough the bodice, this i never noticed before. This must be a heavy duchesse satin, and imagine to pleat so much width into such a small waist, you really must use cartridge pleats :-) sorry i keep on Bjarne Actually, there is another technique, rolled pleats. And they are easy to sew into a waistband. My tailor, Stephen Bergdahl, used them for my latest Elizabethan gown (I still have not learned how to do them since I have not needed a new gown, yet). He said it was very easy. And it does give the look of the full skirts in many of the portraits. Joan Jurancich [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] colonial
The portrait is earlier 18thC, and perhaps represents an opulent fantasy style. If anyone can get a look at extant upper class wear of the time, we would know if there were cartridge pleats or knife pleats.-Carol If pictures in books dont suit your taste, then for a good grovel, a CV, and a letter of introduction you can get into the Bath Museum of Costume and fondle the real thing. Other museums have their own rituals of supplication. grin I wonder if 18th will be fashionable among costume dance historians this year. When I saw Memoirs of a Geisha this weekend, there was a preview for Marie Antonette. --cin Cynthia Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] colonial
In a message dated 2/15/2006 3:56:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: By the way, this portrait is one of the reasons that i keep on saying that cartridge pleating was used in 18th century, even though the 18th century womens list has disagreed. I think you're right. The big difference in this gown and is say one of Madam de Pompadour's is this is not an open robe. It is a bodice with skirt attached. The crisp silk looks cartridge pleated to meit doesn't even look like those little 1/2 inch pleats you get in the 1770s and 80s. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] colonial
On some other sites the colors were dark green, teal, blue, blue green, and blue grey. :) annoying isn't it?:P The two paintings are different paintings. The close up is probably copied from the other. De -Original Message- http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Fran%C3%A7ois_Boucher_019.jpg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Fran%C3%A7ois_Boucher_018.jpg The color seems off in these pics. Anyway, Glen Close wears a replica of this gown [in a dark teal with pink roses and bows] in Dangerous Liaisons in the only scene where all the main characters are together, at the Salon, listening to the castrate singing Handel. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] colonial
Holy Crapola, that dress is beautiful, but really badly mounted. So I wouldn't trust all of their information, especially about the gown meeting edge to edge at the centrefront. I wish they had taken the time to mount the dress proprely, then you would be able to see all it's glory in the photos...they are great photos, I'm bummed ;-( Sorry about the other post, I hit send accidently :~ If you think the mounting was bad for that one, check this one out: http://www.vintagetextile.com/new_page_431.htm I LOVE this jacket, but it looks so awful there! If you are interested in more information about dresses from this time period, check out Janet Arnold's book on this period, I have it but I don't remember too many pictures with construction details. Maybe I will have to look at it again. also Louisbourg National Historic Site, published booklets on clothing from this time period a few years back, they are complete with patterns and tailoring details. Their website is http://fortress.uccb.ns.ca/ , you may be able to contact them for a copy. Thanks! I will look into that. Costume Close-Up has been helpful for construction information but they only have limited close-ups and usually only one per garment. But every little bit helps! Diana www.RenaissanceFabrics.net Everything for the Costumer Become the change you want to see in the world. --Ghandi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] colonial
I'd try small delicate flowers spread around the lower part of the skirt and in the bouquet. Ribbons should be delicat and not so bold since the color is so contrasted. I've made lots of wedding dresses and this is what I'd suggest. My wedding colors were ecru/cream with wine accents. I mixed pale baby blue in there every so often for contrast. Gold accents in the table fabrics and a gold ribbon in my bouquet of wine and cream colored silk flowers. I used silk lilacs in the chapel. Looked great to me. And in only 2 weeks to plan it all. - Original Message - From: Diana Habra [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 10:55 AM Subject: RE: [h-cost] colonial Oooo wedding dress!:) What color? De Well, that has been the hardest part. I want to do a white-ish color white, cream, chanpagne, etc.) but my accent color is a deep purple-blue. I originally intended to make it white with the blue accents but the contrast is so big! I am still trying to figure out how to do it. I am very inspired by this painting: http://www.nga.gov/cgi-bin/pimage?32697+0+0 But I also like the split-skirt style like the garment just posted. Sighso many ideas and I only get to choose one! Diana www.RenaissanceFabrics.net Everything for the Costumer Become the change you want to see in the world. --Ghandi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] colonial
Perhaps a very faint hint of color of purple/ blue (periwinkle?) for the dress material with eggshell white bows and underskirt. If you have the split, were you thinking of a quilted underskirt or leaving it plan? De -Original Message- Well, that has been the hardest part. I want to do a white-ish color white, cream, chanpagne, etc.) but my accent color is a deep purple-blue. I originally intended to make it white with the blue accents but the contrast is so big! I am still trying to figure out how to do it. I am very inspired by this painting: http://www.nga.gov/cgi-bin/pimage?32697+0+0 But I also like the split-skirt style like the garment just posted. Sighso many ideas and I only get to choose one! Diana ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] colonial
I have both Arnold books and don't need them. If anyone is interested in buying them, let me know. They are beautiful but not what I needed. I accidently ordered the wrong time period first then had to get the earlier period one. SO I have them both now. - Original Message - From: Diana Habra [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 10:56 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] colonial Holy Crapola, that dress is beautiful, but really badly mounted. So I wouldn't trust all of their information, especially about the gown meeting edge to edge at the centrefront. I wish they had taken the time to mount the dress proprely, then you would be able to see all it's glory in the photos...they are great photos, I'm bummed ;-( If you are interested in more information about dresses from this time period, check out Janet Arnold's book on this period, also Louisbourg National Historic Site, published booklets on clothing from this time period a few years back, they are complete with patterns and tailoring details. Their website is http://fortress.uccb.ns.ca/ , you may be able to contact them for a copy. For those who are interested in this era, come join me and a few hundred others at Louisbourg's Grande Encampment this year! Kelly/estela - Original Message - From: Diana Habra [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 2:11 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] colonial Ooo...look what I found. http://www.vintagetextile.com/new_page_238.htm De I LOVE this website! I know that they show the details to help sell the clothing but it is AWESOME for us historical costumers that may not ever get to study garments like these in person. Thanks so much for sharing! I am trying to design my wedding gown which will roughly be from this period and I am trying to find out all I can about construction techniques. This new colonial dress will be a big help. Diana www.RenaissanceFabrics.net Everything for the Costumer Become the change you want to see in the world. --Ghandi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume www.RenaissanceFabrics.net Everything for the Costumer Become the change you want to see in the world. --Ghandi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] colonial
If pictures in books dont suit your taste, then for a good grovel, a CV, and a letter of introduction you can get into the Bath Museum of Costume and fondle the real thing. Other museums have their own rituals of supplication. grin Well, my CV is not applicable because I haven't done much costume professionally. I didn't need a letter of introduction, and I didn't grovel, either. Of course, I was just looking at stockings, not gowns - maybe they're fussier with the gowns. A lot of museums are open to visits by dedicated amateurs, you just need to phone and write ahead of time and understand that many places are understaffed. It helps to belong to the Costume Society, and meet curators that way. The more people you meet, the more cool stuff you can see, then you meet more people, and see more stuff... I started 20 years ago looking at lace at the Met in New York. Somebody helpfully told me all you have to do is make an appointment. And it worked! It's nice to arrive bearing gifts - chocolate is always correct. And if going over there (wherever over there is), books published over here are nice, too. A lot of people have opportunities to visit collections, so if the question is out there then people may remember to look when they do have the chance to examine original gowns. And then there are the symposium weekends, where a curator and/or private collector brings their originals to show off. So yes, I believe in looking at originals to learn the techniques that were used. Also, regarding American vs European - some collections in America include European clothing. -Carol ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] colonial
Ooo...look what I found. http://www.vintagetextile.com/new_page_238.htm De I LOVE this website! I know that they show the details to help sell the clothing but it is AWESOME for us historical costumers that may not ever get to study garments like these in person. Thanks so much for sharing! I am trying to design my wedding gown which will roughly be from this period and I am trying to find out all I can about construction techniques. This new colonial dress will be a big help. Diana www.RenaissanceFabrics.net Everything for the Costumer Become the change you want to see in the world. --Ghandi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Colonial costume
In a message dated 12/13/2005 1:47:46 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: She is as heavy as I am, about as wide as she is tall in the body, but has a short upper body compared to mine. There is evidence of some fairly large women in Colonial America. I'm thinking of a painting of a woman in a green damask dress--someone on this list probably knows the one I mean. I can't remember if that dress has a stomacher or not, but, if it does, I believe it is plain and of the same fabric as the dress. Ann Wass ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Colonial costume
Hi Kitty, First I would recommend the 18th century woman list which is a Yahoo Group - 18cWoman. There is a concentration of people who just do that century, so lots of knowledge and information. Approximately what year of colonial does your friend want? Stomachers went out of fashion around the time of the American Revolution, but were very much in use in the early part of the century. What class is the outfit, and any particular ethnic group? Is it to wear to a dance, as a volunteer for a historic site? A theatrical performance? Every-day or formal? help keep the shape. I'm not familiar enough with the patterns available to be able to talk about them (I tend to draft or drape my own from books such as Patterns of Fashion). Stays (18thC corset) really will help, especially if she is heavy. Otherwise she can make the stomacher stiff (with boning and interfacing, which they did in the 18thC), and use a substantial lining in the bodice of the gown to Style-wise, the gown and petticoat (underskirt) can be the same color with a different color for the stomacher. That will draw the eye up to the bustline. (But you don't want to be spilling out of the gown!) A different color petticoat is a sort of mix match style sometimes seen in casual wear. (Back to the question of the purpose of her gown.) The stomacher should not match the petticoat. I'm not sure what you mean by a lace overlay on the stomacher. Some have a criss-cross ribbon pattern to look like the gown is laced overtop, and another style is a series of bows, as if the gown is tied over the stomacher. Lace is sometimes used to give the appearance that the item is embroidered. Some original stomachers are 3-D, with chenille embroidery, ribbon work, etc. They can also be plain fabric or a brocade, without extra embellishment. (Again back to the purpose/class of the gown!) If you look around the web for ideas, be sure you know what is original to the 18th century (portraits clothing) versus people in repro clothing. Everyone makes their own changes and compromises, and it helps to know what you're looking at. -Carol She wants to do a stomacher to minimize the width, and wonders how her skirt should look. I can't find any pattern sites with a stomacher for colonial patterns, and my best guess for her is to make an over skirt to draw the lace overlay from the stomacher to the skirt and keep the eye moving and not fixated on the width. Any other ideas? I'd like to be able to email her some photos or sites to help her visualize the ideas if anyone has anything to help her. Oh. she is basically doing an impression, not perfect accuracy. She's never tried a corset and I'm not sure if I should offer to let her try mine. LOL I think mine might be too long anyway. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Colonial costume
In a message dated 12/13/2005 6:20:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There is evidence of some fairly large women in Colonial America. But of course! There're large women everywhere at every time. And mid 18th century is a period they look particularly good in...IMHO. I'd keep the gown dark and plain...trimmed with self fabric. The open robe...with a stomacher and petticoat showing...is a great silhouette for a large figure...but don't make the contrast too jarring. Either do it all out of the same fabric or choose two colors that are close in hue and saturation...like a burgundy and a dark blueor a stripe [for the gown] and something the same color as whatever the prominent color the stripe presents [for the petticoat and stomacher]. Use a corset...like maybe the Simplicity [or is it Butterick] pattern. It needn't be made with steel boning [use Rigellene] or tight. Just snug to give the right shape. I doubt whether a large woman would go with hip pads or panniers unless at court or something. A bit of lace and a flower at the neckline of the dark mass of the [taffeta? Changeable taffeta?] dress to draw your eye to her face, and don't forget a white lace and linen cap...maybe some mitts She'll look great! It'll have great character! ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
