Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Cloverfield had great viral marketing. Very good film too. 2009/10/8 Joshua Scarsbrook jscarsbr...@gmail.com: Releasing a Game in secret is also known as viral marketing, but with steam the second it gets out the whole would will know and it will make the g mod sale look tiny On 9/10/2009 11:52 a.m., Adam Buckland wrote: Only the chosen few who believe will be able to play it... On 8 Oct 2009, at 22:48, Garry Newman wrote: I heard they're aiming to raise the bar by not only developing HL3 in secret - but also releasing it in secret. garry On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Joshua Scarsbrookjscarsbr...@gmail.com wrote: Well what we want to know is what are the next features that are going to be added to source. Also an company as big as valve is going to tell the world of hl3 at E3. On 9/10/2009 5:31 a.m., botman wrote: On 10/8/2009 11:12 AM, Jorge Rodriguez wrote: This list is for programming in Source, not complaining about Source. Aren't they the same thing? ZING! :) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Gmod already has tiny sales. If not for the demographic it's targeting 13-15 year olds. On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 11:25 PM, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: Cloverfield had great viral marketing. Very good film too. 2009/10/8 Joshua Scarsbrook jscarsbr...@gmail.com: Releasing a Game in secret is also known as viral marketing, but with steam the second it gets out the whole would will know and it will make the g mod sale look tiny On 9/10/2009 11:52 a.m., Adam Buckland wrote: Only the chosen few who believe will be able to play it... On 8 Oct 2009, at 22:48, Garry Newman wrote: I heard they're aiming to raise the bar by not only developing HL3 in secret - but also releasing it in secret. garry On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Joshua Scarsbrook jscarsbr...@gmail.com wrote: Well what we want to know is what are the next features that are going to be added to source. Also an company as big as valve is going to tell the world of hl3 at E3. On 9/10/2009 5:31 a.m., botman wrote: On 10/8/2009 11:12 AM, Jorge Rodriguez wrote: This list is for programming in Source, not complaining about Source. Aren't they the same thing? ZING! :) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- Gear Dev ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Worth noting that most of the larger projects where developed by engineers(in garrysmod) aside from source has kinda gone dormant unlike other engines, valve still gets a lot of sales but the engine has gone to sleep On 10/10/2009 10:21 a.m., BananaSandbags wrote: To better iterate on that though, I'm speaking of tiny sales compared to some Large titles, though gmod still does well all on it's own. http://www.garry.tv/wp-content/plugins/quickimg/image/f5db5c01d838401f39fda14271602a26.jpg http://www.garry.tv/wp-content/plugins/quickimg/image/f5db5c01d838401f39fda14271602a26.jpgAnd the demographic isn't that much of a problem, we all know how 13 year olds can be :/. Either way, the gameplay style attracts younger people more often, only because they seem to have a getter imagination than older people do. On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 11:42 PM, Cory de La Torregear@gmail.comwrote: Gmod already has tiny sales. If not for the demographic it's targeting 13-15 year olds. On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 11:25 PM, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: Cloverfield had great viral marketing. Very good film too. 2009/10/8 Joshua Scarsbrookjscarsbr...@gmail.com: Releasing a Game in secret is also known as viral marketing, but with steam the second it gets out the whole would will know and it will make the g mod sale look tiny On 9/10/2009 11:52 a.m., Adam Buckland wrote: Only the chosen few who believe will be able to play it... On 8 Oct 2009, at 22:48, Garry Newman wrote: I heard they're aiming to raise the bar by not only developing HL3 in secret - but also releasing it in secret. garry On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Joshua Scarsbrook jscarsbr...@gmail.com wrote: Well what we want to know is what are the next features that are going to be added to source. Also an company as big as valve is going to tell the world of hl3 at E3. On 9/10/2009 5:31 a.m., botman wrote: On 10/8/2009 11:12 AM, Jorge Rodriguez wrote: This list is for programming in Source, not complaining about Source. Aren't they the same thing? ZING! :) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- Gear Dev ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Postal 3 seems fine and it is going to be using source engine Sent from my iPhone On Oct 9, 2009, at 6:45 PM, Rodrigo 'r2d2rigo' Diaz r2d2r...@gmail.com wrote: To sleep? Yeah, because there are no differences between vanilla Source, and the Ep1 and OB revisions. And who knows what are the changes for Ep3 or future versions. Joshua, sometimes (always?) you give the impression that you are talking about something without knowing a crap on the subject. Just my 2 cents. 2009/10/10 Joshua Scarsbrook jscarsbr...@gmail.com Worth noting that most of the larger projects where developed by engineers(in garrysmod) aside from source has kinda gone dormant unlike other engines, valve still gets a lot of sales but the engine has gone to sleep On 10/10/2009 10:21 a.m., BananaSandbags wrote: To better iterate on that though, I'm speaking of tiny sales compared to some Large titles, though gmod still does well all on it's own. http://www.garry.tv/wp-content/plugins/quickimg/image/f5db5c01d838401f39fda14271602a26.jpg http://www.garry.tv/wp-content/plugins/quickimg/image/f5db5c01d838401f39fda14271602a26.jpg And the demographic isn't that much of a problem, we all know how 13 year olds can be :/. Either way, the gameplay style attracts younger people more often, only because they seem to have a getter imagination than older people do. On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 11:42 PM, Cory de La Torregear@gmail.com wrote: Gmod already has tiny sales. If not for the demographic it's targeting 13-15 year olds. On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 11:25 PM, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: Cloverfield had great viral marketing. Very good film too. 2009/10/8 Joshua Scarsbrookjscarsbr...@gmail.com: Releasing a Game in secret is also known as viral marketing, but with steam the second it gets out the whole would will know and it will make the g mod sale look tiny On 9/10/2009 11:52 a.m., Adam Buckland wrote: Only the chosen few who believe will be able to play it... On 8 Oct 2009, at 22:48, Garry Newman wrote: I heard they're aiming to raise the bar by not only developing HL3 in secret - but also releasing it in secret. garry On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Joshua Scarsbrook jscarsbr...@gmail.com wrote: Well what we want to know is what are the next features that are going to be added to source. Also an company as big as valve is going to tell the world of hl3 at E3. On 9/10/2009 5:31 a.m., botman wrote: On 10/8/2009 11:12 AM, Jorge Rodriguez wrote: This list is for programming in Source, not complaining about Source. Aren't they the same thing? ZING! :) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- Gear Dev ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
I called 911. The wambulance is on the way. On 10/7/2009 9:15 PM, Nick wrote: still no reply, im not surprised though On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: Yeah, I guess it makes much more sense if I treat it as sarcasm. Meh. 2009/8/6 Tony Palomadrunkenf...@hotmail.com: I think you missed the sarcasm. -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Harry Jeffery Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 2:53 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine They use their tools to make their games to make lots of money and game of the year... again. 2009/8/6 botmanbotman.hlcod...@gmail.com: How else is VAVLe going to be successful unless they listen to our helpful comments? It's obvious they don't know what they are doing and need our help. On 8/5/2009 5:47 PM, Garry Newman wrote: They're probably too busy doing actual work to respond to a list of scatterbrain pipe dream demands from a bunch of lazy modders. garry On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 11:34 PM, Nickxnicho...@gmail.comwrote: I like how valve has absolutely no response to make regarding this subject. On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Saul Rennisonsaul.renni...@gmail.com wrote: Seconded! Thanks, - Saul. 2009/7/26 Matt Hoffmanlord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com I for one would also like a fix for the ATI Hammer text... jaggies. Or should I make a separate hlcoders email about that instead of including all my hard-earned research in this one? On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Christopher Harris char...@resrchnet.comwrote: My only wish for updates to the tools is to update Faceposer to work fully with Vista. Currently it is not possible to do auto-generation of the lip-synch data in Vista, and furthermore another dev and I both had trouble on his XP machine locating a working link to the Speech SDK that Faceposer requires, all the MS links were 404, etc. I will just say that doing the lip synch data yourself is extremely lemons, not to mention that I am a coder not an artiste :D Chris -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Harry Pidcock Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 9:32 PM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Whitespace should be easy to embed in the engine if you create a wrapper that works with the feature I presented before. Whitespace is a very visual language that is great for particle effects and shaders(it is then translated into complex hlsl). -- From: Harry Jefferyharry101jeff...@googlemail.com Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 4:40 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine I thought it looked so clean and easy, then I selected the whitespace. =[ 2009/7/25 Spencer 'voogru' MacDonaldvoo...@voogru.com: I like this one better. http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Olly Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:54 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Its a good job you used tinyurl, otherwise it wouldn't have fit on my screen!... 2009/7/25 Harry Pidcockhaz...@tpg.com.au Valve contacted me yesterday to tell me they have successfully implemented a new feature. http://tinyurl.com/4f6mt I hope to see more of these innovations in the future. -- From: Andrew Ritchiegotta...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:21 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Surely this topic could be split into several different points. Personally I see 4 different ones here. 1) Engine features 2) Tools Capabilities 3) Tools Availability 4) Tools Presentation The first is ignorable, Valve is clearly only going to add new features or change things, like BSP and displacement maps, when they think it's important. It's their engine and it needs to do what their games need doing. If you choose to use Source then you have to accept you are modding their engine. Sure TF, CS, DoD etc.. all were mods that made Valve a lot of money and brought huge success but they were also developed around the constraints of the engine rather than the engine being built FOR these mods to be made. If a technical limitation is big enough to warrent an engine change then do so rather than hanging about wanting Valve to add the feature, as big as the previous
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Hahaha.. I'm pretty sure most of Valve is busy finishing up what they can on L4D2. On Friday, October 9, 2009, botman botman.hlcod...@gmail.com wrote: I called 911. The wambulance is on the way. On 10/7/2009 9:15 PM, Nick wrote: still no reply, im not surprised though On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: Yeah, I guess it makes much more sense if I treat it as sarcasm. Meh. 2009/8/6 Tony Palomadrunkenf...@hotmail.com: I think you missed the sarcasm. -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Harry Jeffery Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 2:53 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine They use their tools to make their games to make lots of money and game of the year... again. 2009/8/6 botmanbotman.hlcod...@gmail.com: How else is VAVLe going to be successful unless they listen to our helpful comments? It's obvious they don't know what they are doing and need our help. On 8/5/2009 5:47 PM, Garry Newman wrote: They're probably too busy doing actual work to respond to a list of scatterbrain pipe dream demands from a bunch of lazy modders. garry On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 11:34 PM, Nickxnicho...@gmail.com wrote: I like how valve has absolutely no response to make regarding this subject. On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Saul Rennisonsaul.renni...@gmail.com wrote: Seconded! Thanks, - Saul. 2009/7/26 Matt Hoffmanlord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com I for one would also like a fix for the ATI Hammer text... jaggies. Or should I make a separate hlcoders email about that instead of including all my hard-earned research in this one? On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Christopher Harris char...@resrchnet.comwrote: My only wish for updates to the tools is to update Faceposer to work fully with Vista. Currently it is not possible to do auto-generation of the lip-synch data in Vista, and furthermore another dev and I both had trouble on his XP machine locating a working link to the Speech SDK that Faceposer requires, all the MS links were 404, etc. I will just say that doing the lip synch data yourself is extremely lemons, not to mention that I am a coder not an artiste :D Chris -Original Message- From: -- Jeffrey botman Broome ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Don't be silly, they're off in the bahamas relaxing in hammocks and sipping mojitos... Rich Jonathan Murphy wrote: Hahaha.. I'm pretty sure most of Valve is busy finishing up what they can on L4D2. On Friday, October 9, 2009, botman botman.hlcod...@gmail.com wrote: I called 911. The wambulance is on the way. On 10/7/2009 9:15 PM, Nick wrote: still no reply, im not surprised though On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: Yeah, I guess it makes much more sense if I treat it as sarcasm. Meh. 2009/8/6 Tony Palomadrunkenf...@hotmail.com: I think you missed the sarcasm. -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Harry Jeffery Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 2:53 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine They use their tools to make their games to make lots of money and game of the year... again. 2009/8/6 botmanbotman.hlcod...@gmail.com: How else is VAVLe going to be successful unless they listen to our helpful comments? It's obvious they don't know what they are doing and need our help. On 8/5/2009 5:47 PM, Garry Newman wrote: They're probably too busy doing actual work to respond to a list of scatterbrain pipe dream demands from a bunch of lazy modders. garry On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 11:34 PM, Nickxnicho...@gmail.comwrote: I like how valve has absolutely no response to make regarding this subject. On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Saul Rennisonsaul.renni...@gmail.com wrote: Seconded! Thanks, - Saul. 2009/7/26 Matt Hoffmanlord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com I for one would also like a fix for the ATI Hammer text... jaggies. Or should I make a separate hlcoders email about that instead of including all my hard-earned research in this one? On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Christopher Harris char...@resrchnet.comwrote: My only wish for updates to the tools is to update Faceposer to work fully with Vista. Currently it is not possible to do auto-generation of the lip-synch data in Vista, and furthermore another dev and I both had trouble on his XP machine locating a working link to the Speech SDK that Faceposer requires, all the MS links were 404, etc. I will just say that doing the lip synch data yourself is extremely lemons, not to mention that I am a coder not an artiste :D Chris -Original Message- From: -- Jeffrey botman Broome ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
And I just pre-ordered L4D2 too :( The source engine does it's job well, valve don't have the time or manpower to make it as commercially feasible as UE3 is. Anyway, valve are making plenty of cash with their own games on their own engine. I'm moving onto XNA after I've finished working on the mods I currently code for =] XBL Marketplace should get me a bit of cash on the side as source modding certainly wont without betraying valve or buying a license. 2009/10/8 Richard Slaughter slau...@vault13.co.uk: Don't be silly, they're off in the bahamas relaxing in hammocks and sipping mojitos... Rich Jonathan Murphy wrote: Hahaha.. I'm pretty sure most of Valve is busy finishing up what they can on L4D2. On Friday, October 9, 2009, botman botman.hlcod...@gmail.com wrote: I called 911. The wambulance is on the way. On 10/7/2009 9:15 PM, Nick wrote: still no reply, im not surprised though On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: Yeah, I guess it makes much more sense if I treat it as sarcasm. Meh. 2009/8/6 Tony Palomadrunkenf...@hotmail.com: I think you missed the sarcasm. -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Harry Jeffery Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 2:53 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine They use their tools to make their games to make lots of money and game of the year... again. 2009/8/6 botmanbotman.hlcod...@gmail.com: How else is VAVLe going to be successful unless they listen to our helpful comments? It's obvious they don't know what they are doing and need our help. On 8/5/2009 5:47 PM, Garry Newman wrote: They're probably too busy doing actual work to respond to a list of scatterbrain pipe dream demands from a bunch of lazy modders. garry On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 11:34 PM, Nickxnicho...@gmail.com wrote: I like how valve has absolutely no response to make regarding this subject. On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Saul Rennisonsaul.renni...@gmail.com wrote: Seconded! Thanks, - Saul. 2009/7/26 Matt Hoffmanlord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com I for one would also like a fix for the ATI Hammer text... jaggies. Or should I make a separate hlcoders email about that instead of including all my hard-earned research in this one? On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Christopher Harris char...@resrchnet.comwrote: My only wish for updates to the tools is to update Faceposer to work fully with Vista. Currently it is not possible to do auto-generation of the lip-synch data in Vista, and furthermore another dev and I both had trouble on his XP machine locating a working link to the Speech SDK that Faceposer requires, all the MS links were 404, etc. I will just say that doing the lip synch data yourself is extremely lemons, not to mention that I am a coder not an artiste :D Chris -Original Message- From: -- Jeffrey botman Broome ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Guys guys guys. If they are working on Half-Life 3, do you think they're going to announce it on this list? Guys guys guys. Do you really think that Valve is sitting idly by letting their engine get old? Use your head. They developed Half-Life 2 for years in secret, and chances are they're doing the same thing with the next groundbreaking technology right now. This list is for programming in Source, not complaining about Source. -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
On 10/8/2009 11:12 AM, Jorge Rodriguez wrote: This list is for programming in Source, not complaining about Source. Aren't they the same thing? ZING! :) -- Jeffrey botman Broome ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Well what we want to know is what are the next features that are going to be added to source. Also an company as big as valve is going to tell the world of hl3 at E3. On 9/10/2009 5:31 a.m., botman wrote: On 10/8/2009 11:12 AM, Jorge Rodriguez wrote: This list is for programming in Source, not complaining about Source. Aren't they the same thing? ZING! :) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
They told us that L4D2 was coming. Next year had better have a better announcement then we're working on it and a leaked vid of deaf people. =[ 2009/10/8 Joshua Scarsbrook jscarsbr...@gmail.com: Well what we want to know is what are the next features that are going to be added to source. Also an company as big as valve is going to tell the world of hl3 at E3. On 9/10/2009 5:31 a.m., botman wrote: On 10/8/2009 11:12 AM, Jorge Rodriguez wrote: This list is for programming in Source, not complaining about Source. Aren't they the same thing? ZING! :) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
I heard they're aiming to raise the bar by not only developing HL3 in secret - but also releasing it in secret. garry On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Joshua Scarsbrook jscarsbr...@gmail.comwrote: Well what we want to know is what are the next features that are going to be added to source. Also an company as big as valve is going to tell the world of hl3 at E3. On 9/10/2009 5:31 a.m., botman wrote: On 10/8/2009 11:12 AM, Jorge Rodriguez wrote: This list is for programming in Source, not complaining about Source. Aren't they the same thing? ZING! :) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Only the chosen few who believe will be able to play it... On 8 Oct 2009, at 22:48, Garry Newman wrote: I heard they're aiming to raise the bar by not only developing HL3 in secret - but also releasing it in secret. garry On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Joshua Scarsbrook jscarsbr...@gmail.com wrote: Well what we want to know is what are the next features that are going to be added to source. Also an company as big as valve is going to tell the world of hl3 at E3. On 9/10/2009 5:31 a.m., botman wrote: On 10/8/2009 11:12 AM, Jorge Rodriguez wrote: This list is for programming in Source, not complaining about Source. Aren't they the same thing? ZING! :) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
What I would give for a sneak peek at Ep3. Hell, I'd even sign an NDA. 2009/10/8 Adam Buckland adamjbuckl...@gmail.com: Only the chosen few who believe will be able to play it... On 8 Oct 2009, at 22:48, Garry Newman wrote: I heard they're aiming to raise the bar by not only developing HL3 in secret - but also releasing it in secret. garry On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Joshua Scarsbrook jscarsbr...@gmail.com wrote: Well what we want to know is what are the next features that are going to be added to source. Also an company as big as valve is going to tell the world of hl3 at E3. On 9/10/2009 5:31 a.m., botman wrote: On 10/8/2009 11:12 AM, Jorge Rodriguez wrote: This list is for programming in Source, not complaining about Source. Aren't they the same thing? ZING! :) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
I'm sure most of us would Harry. :P On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 2:59 PM, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: What I would give for a sneak peek at Ep3. Hell, I'd even sign an NDA. 2009/10/8 Adam Buckland adamjbuckl...@gmail.com: Only the chosen few who believe will be able to play it... On 8 Oct 2009, at 22:48, Garry Newman wrote: I heard they're aiming to raise the bar by not only developing HL3 in secret - but also releasing it in secret. garry On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Joshua Scarsbrook jscarsbr...@gmail.com wrote: Well what we want to know is what are the next features that are going to be added to source. Also an company as big as valve is going to tell the world of hl3 at E3. On 9/10/2009 5:31 a.m., botman wrote: On 10/8/2009 11:12 AM, Jorge Rodriguez wrote: This list is for programming in Source, not complaining about Source. Aren't they the same thing? ZING! :) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Start a boycott group, see it for free. On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 10:59 PM, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: What I would give for a sneak peek at Ep3. Hell, I'd even sign an NDA. 2009/10/8 Adam Buckland adamjbuckl...@gmail.com: Only the chosen few who believe will be able to play it... On 8 Oct 2009, at 22:48, Garry Newman wrote: I heard they're aiming to raise the bar by not only developing HL3 in secret - but also releasing it in secret. garry On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Joshua Scarsbrook jscarsbr...@gmail.com wrote: Well what we want to know is what are the next features that are going to be added to source. Also an company as big as valve is going to tell the world of hl3 at E3. On 9/10/2009 5:31 a.m., botman wrote: On 10/8/2009 11:12 AM, Jorge Rodriguez wrote: This list is for programming in Source, not complaining about Source. Aren't they the same thing? ZING! :) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- - Stephen Swires ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Releasing a Game in secret is also known as viral marketing, but with steam the second it gets out the whole would will know and it will make the g mod sale look tiny On 9/10/2009 11:52 a.m., Adam Buckland wrote: Only the chosen few who believe will be able to play it... On 8 Oct 2009, at 22:48, Garry Newman wrote: I heard they're aiming to raise the bar by not only developing HL3 in secret - but also releasing it in secret. garry On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Joshua Scarsbrookjscarsbr...@gmail.com wrote: Well what we want to know is what are the next features that are going to be added to source. Also an company as big as valve is going to tell the world of hl3 at E3. On 9/10/2009 5:31 a.m., botman wrote: On 10/8/2009 11:12 AM, Jorge Rodriguez wrote: This list is for programming in Source, not complaining about Source. Aren't they the same thing? ZING! :) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
I would even cut of my thumb for it. Or just cut my nails. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
still no reply, im not surprised though On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: Yeah, I guess it makes much more sense if I treat it as sarcasm. Meh. 2009/8/6 Tony Paloma drunkenf...@hotmail.com: I think you missed the sarcasm. -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Harry Jeffery Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 2:53 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine They use their tools to make their games to make lots of money and game of the year... again. 2009/8/6 botman botman.hlcod...@gmail.com: How else is VAVLe going to be successful unless they listen to our helpful comments? It's obvious they don't know what they are doing and need our help. On 8/5/2009 5:47 PM, Garry Newman wrote: They're probably too busy doing actual work to respond to a list of scatterbrain pipe dream demands from a bunch of lazy modders. garry On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 11:34 PM, Nickxnicho...@gmail.com wrote: I like how valve has absolutely no response to make regarding this subject. On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Saul Rennisonsaul.renni...@gmail.com wrote: Seconded! Thanks, - Saul. 2009/7/26 Matt Hoffmanlord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com I for one would also like a fix for the ATI Hammer text... jaggies. Or should I make a separate hlcoders email about that instead of including all my hard-earned research in this one? On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Christopher Harris char...@resrchnet.comwrote: My only wish for updates to the tools is to update Faceposer to work fully with Vista. Currently it is not possible to do auto-generation of the lip-synch data in Vista, and furthermore another dev and I both had trouble on his XP machine locating a working link to the Speech SDK that Faceposer requires, all the MS links were 404, etc. I will just say that doing the lip synch data yourself is extremely lemons, not to mention that I am a coder not an artiste :D Chris -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Harry Pidcock Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 9:32 PM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Whitespace should be easy to embed in the engine if you create a wrapper that works with the feature I presented before. Whitespace is a very visual language that is great for particle effects and shaders(it is then translated into complex hlsl). -- From: Harry Jefferyharry101jeff...@googlemail.com Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 4:40 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine I thought it looked so clean and easy, then I selected the whitespace. =[ 2009/7/25 Spencer 'voogru' MacDonaldvoo...@voogru.com: I like this one better. http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Olly Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:54 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Its a good job you used tinyurl, otherwise it wouldn't have fit on my screen!... 2009/7/25 Harry Pidcockhaz...@tpg.com.au Valve contacted me yesterday to tell me they have successfully implemented a new feature. http://tinyurl.com/4f6mt I hope to see more of these innovations in the future. -- From: Andrew Ritchiegotta...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:21 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Surely this topic could be split into several different points. Personally I see 4 different ones here. 1) Engine features 2) Tools Capabilities 3) Tools Availability 4) Tools Presentation The first is ignorable, Valve is clearly only going to add new features or change things, like BSP and displacement maps, when they think it's important. It's their engine and it needs to do what their games need doing. If you choose to use Source then you have to accept you are modding their engine. Sure TF, CS, DoD etc.. all were mods that made Valve a lot of money and brought huge success but they were also developed around the constraints of the engine rather than the engine being built FOR these mods to be made. If a technical limitation is big enough to warrent an engine change then do so rather than hanging about wanting Valve to add the feature, as big as the previous mentioned mods are you'd need to really prove you're up to their popularity before
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
They use their tools to make their games to make lots of money and game of the year... again. 2009/8/6 botman botman.hlcod...@gmail.com: How else is VAVLe going to be successful unless they listen to our helpful comments? It's obvious they don't know what they are doing and need our help. On 8/5/2009 5:47 PM, Garry Newman wrote: They're probably too busy doing actual work to respond to a list of scatterbrain pipe dream demands from a bunch of lazy modders. garry On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 11:34 PM, Nickxnicho...@gmail.com wrote: I like how valve has absolutely no response to make regarding this subject. On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Saul Rennisonsaul.renni...@gmail.com wrote: Seconded! Thanks, - Saul. 2009/7/26 Matt Hoffmanlord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com I for one would also like a fix for the ATI Hammer text... jaggies. Or should I make a separate hlcoders email about that instead of including all my hard-earned research in this one? On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Christopher Harris char...@resrchnet.comwrote: My only wish for updates to the tools is to update Faceposer to work fully with Vista. Currently it is not possible to do auto-generation of the lip-synch data in Vista, and furthermore another dev and I both had trouble on his XP machine locating a working link to the Speech SDK that Faceposer requires, all the MS links were 404, etc. I will just say that doing the lip synch data yourself is extremely lemons, not to mention that I am a coder not an artiste :D Chris -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Harry Pidcock Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 9:32 PM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Whitespace should be easy to embed in the engine if you create a wrapper that works with the feature I presented before. Whitespace is a very visual language that is great for particle effects and shaders(it is then translated into complex hlsl). -- From: Harry Jefferyharry101jeff...@googlemail.com Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 4:40 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine I thought it looked so clean and easy, then I selected the whitespace. =[ 2009/7/25 Spencer 'voogru' MacDonaldvoo...@voogru.com: I like this one better. http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Olly Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:54 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Its a good job you used tinyurl, otherwise it wouldn't have fit on my screen!... 2009/7/25 Harry Pidcockhaz...@tpg.com.au Valve contacted me yesterday to tell me they have successfully implemented a new feature. http://tinyurl.com/4f6mt I hope to see more of these innovations in the future. -- From: Andrew Ritchiegotta...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:21 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Surely this topic could be split into several different points. Personally I see 4 different ones here. 1) Engine features 2) Tools Capabilities 3) Tools Availability 4) Tools Presentation The first is ignorable, Valve is clearly only going to add new features or change things, like BSP and displacement maps, when they think it's important. It's their engine and it needs to do what their games need doing. If you choose to use Source then you have to accept you are modding their engine. Sure TF, CS, DoD etc.. all were mods that made Valve a lot of money and brought huge success but they were also developed around the constraints of the engine rather than the engine being built FOR these mods to be made. If a technical limitation is big enough to warrent an engine change then do so rather than hanging about wanting Valve to add the feature, as big as the previous mentioned mods are you'd need to really prove you're up to their popularity before Valve would make a drastic change for you. So either accept the engine's features before you get underway or be prepared to encounter the fact you can't do certain things without a lot of work, if not at all. The Tools Capabilities I think is what Jed was really getting at, I don't mean like adding features to hammer and stuff but specifically allowing the chance for modders to by pass say model exporting to smd and just use a common format. The tool would need to have the importer and converter written but I personally think that approaching Valve
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
I think you missed the sarcasm. -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Harry Jeffery Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 2:53 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine They use their tools to make their games to make lots of money and game of the year... again. 2009/8/6 botman botman.hlcod...@gmail.com: How else is VAVLe going to be successful unless they listen to our helpful comments? It's obvious they don't know what they are doing and need our help. On 8/5/2009 5:47 PM, Garry Newman wrote: They're probably too busy doing actual work to respond to a list of scatterbrain pipe dream demands from a bunch of lazy modders. garry On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 11:34 PM, Nickxnicho...@gmail.com wrote: I like how valve has absolutely no response to make regarding this subject. On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Saul Rennisonsaul.renni...@gmail.com wrote: Seconded! Thanks, - Saul. 2009/7/26 Matt Hoffmanlord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com I for one would also like a fix for the ATI Hammer text... jaggies. Or should I make a separate hlcoders email about that instead of including all my hard-earned research in this one? On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Christopher Harris char...@resrchnet.comwrote: My only wish for updates to the tools is to update Faceposer to work fully with Vista. Currently it is not possible to do auto-generation of the lip-synch data in Vista, and furthermore another dev and I both had trouble on his XP machine locating a working link to the Speech SDK that Faceposer requires, all the MS links were 404, etc. I will just say that doing the lip synch data yourself is extremely lemons, not to mention that I am a coder not an artiste :D Chris -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Harry Pidcock Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 9:32 PM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Whitespace should be easy to embed in the engine if you create a wrapper that works with the feature I presented before. Whitespace is a very visual language that is great for particle effects and shaders(it is then translated into complex hlsl). -- From: Harry Jefferyharry101jeff...@googlemail.com Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 4:40 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine I thought it looked so clean and easy, then I selected the whitespace. =[ 2009/7/25 Spencer 'voogru' MacDonaldvoo...@voogru.com: I like this one better. http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Olly Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:54 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Its a good job you used tinyurl, otherwise it wouldn't have fit on my screen!... 2009/7/25 Harry Pidcockhaz...@tpg.com.au Valve contacted me yesterday to tell me they have successfully implemented a new feature. http://tinyurl.com/4f6mt I hope to see more of these innovations in the future. -- From: Andrew Ritchiegotta...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:21 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Surely this topic could be split into several different points. Personally I see 4 different ones here. 1) Engine features 2) Tools Capabilities 3) Tools Availability 4) Tools Presentation The first is ignorable, Valve is clearly only going to add new features or change things, like BSP and displacement maps, when they think it's important. It's their engine and it needs to do what their games need doing. If you choose to use Source then you have to accept you are modding their engine. Sure TF, CS, DoD etc.. all were mods that made Valve a lot of money and brought huge success but they were also developed around the constraints of the engine rather than the engine being built FOR these mods to be made. If a technical limitation is big enough to warrent an engine change then do so rather than hanging about wanting Valve to add the feature, as big as the previous mentioned mods are you'd need to really prove you're up to their popularity before Valve would make a drastic change for you. So either accept the engine's features before you get underway or be prepared to encounter the fact you can't do certain things without a lot of work, if not at all. The Tools Capabilities I think is what Jed
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
I have no idea what you are talking about, so here's a picture of a bunny with a pancake on his head... (G. I would attach a picture of a bunny in Hammer with a pancake on his head but every time I try to attach the pancake model to the bunny model the editor crashes.) God dammit VALVe, fix your code!!!1! :) On 8/6/2009 12:24 PM, Tony Paloma wrote: I think you missed the sarcasm. -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Harry Jeffery Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 2:53 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine They use their tools to make their games to make lots of money and game of the year... again. 2009/8/6 botmanbotman.hlcod...@gmail.com: How else is VAVLe going to be successful unless they listen to our helpful comments? It's obvious they don't know what they are doing and need our help. On 8/5/2009 5:47 PM, Garry Newman wrote: They're probably too busy doing actual work to respond to a list of scatterbrain pipe dream demands from a bunch of lazy modders. garry On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 11:34 PM, Nickxnicho...@gmail.comwrote: I like how valve has absolutely no response to make regarding this subject. On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Saul Rennisonsaul.renni...@gmail.com wrote: Seconded! Thanks, - Saul. 2009/7/26 Matt Hoffmanlord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com I for one would also like a fix for the ATI Hammer text... jaggies. Or should I make a separate hlcoders email about that instead of including all my hard-earned research in this one? On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Christopher Harris char...@resrchnet.comwrote: My only wish for updates to the tools is to update Faceposer to work fully with Vista. Currently it is not possible to do auto-generation of the lip-synch data in Vista, and furthermore another dev and I both had trouble on his XP machine locating a working link to the Speech SDK that Faceposer requires, all the MS links were 404, etc. I will just say that doing the lip synch data yourself is extremely lemons, not to mention that I am a coder not an artiste :D Chris -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Harry Pidcock Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 9:32 PM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Whitespace should be easy to embed in the engine if you create a wrapper that works with the feature I presented before. Whitespace is a very visual language that is great for particle effects and shaders(it is then translated into complex hlsl). -- From: Harry Jefferyharry101jeff...@googlemail.com Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 4:40 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine I thought it looked so clean and easy, then I selected the whitespace. =[ 2009/7/25 Spencer 'voogru' MacDonaldvoo...@voogru.com: I like this one better. http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Olly Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:54 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Its a good job you used tinyurl, otherwise it wouldn't have fit on my screen!... 2009/7/25 Harry Pidcockhaz...@tpg.com.au Valve contacted me yesterday to tell me they have successfully implemented a new feature. http://tinyurl.com/4f6mt I hope to see more of these innovations in the future. -- From: Andrew Ritchiegotta...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:21 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Surely this topic could be split into several different points. Personally I see 4 different ones here. 1) Engine features 2) Tools Capabilities 3) Tools Availability 4) Tools Presentation The first is ignorable, Valve is clearly only going to add new features or change things, like BSP and displacement maps, when they think it's important. It's their engine and it needs to do what their games need doing. If you choose to use Source then you have to accept you are modding their engine. Sure TF, CS, DoD etc.. all were mods that made Valve a lot of money and brought huge success but they were also developed around the constraints of the engine rather than the engine being built FOR these mods to be made. If a technical limitation is big enough to warrent an engine change then do so rather than hanging about wanting Valve to add
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Yeah, I guess it makes much more sense if I treat it as sarcasm. Meh. 2009/8/6 Tony Paloma drunkenf...@hotmail.com: I think you missed the sarcasm. -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Harry Jeffery Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 2:53 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine They use their tools to make their games to make lots of money and game of the year... again. 2009/8/6 botman botman.hlcod...@gmail.com: How else is VAVLe going to be successful unless they listen to our helpful comments? It's obvious they don't know what they are doing and need our help. On 8/5/2009 5:47 PM, Garry Newman wrote: They're probably too busy doing actual work to respond to a list of scatterbrain pipe dream demands from a bunch of lazy modders. garry On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 11:34 PM, Nickxnicho...@gmail.com wrote: I like how valve has absolutely no response to make regarding this subject. On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Saul Rennisonsaul.renni...@gmail.com wrote: Seconded! Thanks, - Saul. 2009/7/26 Matt Hoffmanlord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com I for one would also like a fix for the ATI Hammer text... jaggies. Or should I make a separate hlcoders email about that instead of including all my hard-earned research in this one? On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Christopher Harris char...@resrchnet.comwrote: My only wish for updates to the tools is to update Faceposer to work fully with Vista. Currently it is not possible to do auto-generation of the lip-synch data in Vista, and furthermore another dev and I both had trouble on his XP machine locating a working link to the Speech SDK that Faceposer requires, all the MS links were 404, etc. I will just say that doing the lip synch data yourself is extremely lemons, not to mention that I am a coder not an artiste :D Chris -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Harry Pidcock Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 9:32 PM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Whitespace should be easy to embed in the engine if you create a wrapper that works with the feature I presented before. Whitespace is a very visual language that is great for particle effects and shaders(it is then translated into complex hlsl). -- From: Harry Jefferyharry101jeff...@googlemail.com Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 4:40 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine I thought it looked so clean and easy, then I selected the whitespace. =[ 2009/7/25 Spencer 'voogru' MacDonaldvoo...@voogru.com: I like this one better. http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Olly Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:54 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Its a good job you used tinyurl, otherwise it wouldn't have fit on my screen!... 2009/7/25 Harry Pidcockhaz...@tpg.com.au Valve contacted me yesterday to tell me they have successfully implemented a new feature. http://tinyurl.com/4f6mt I hope to see more of these innovations in the future. -- From: Andrew Ritchiegotta...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:21 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Surely this topic could be split into several different points. Personally I see 4 different ones here. 1) Engine features 2) Tools Capabilities 3) Tools Availability 4) Tools Presentation The first is ignorable, Valve is clearly only going to add new features or change things, like BSP and displacement maps, when they think it's important. It's their engine and it needs to do what their games need doing. If you choose to use Source then you have to accept you are modding their engine. Sure TF, CS, DoD etc.. all were mods that made Valve a lot of money and brought huge success but they were also developed around the constraints of the engine rather than the engine being built FOR these mods to be made. If a technical limitation is big enough to warrent an engine change then do so rather than hanging about wanting Valve to add the feature, as big as the previous mentioned mods are you'd need to really prove you're up to their popularity before Valve would make a drastic change for you. So either accept the engine's features before you get underway or be prepared
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
They're probably too busy doing actual work to respond to a list of scatterbrain pipe dream demands from a bunch of lazy modders. garry On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 11:34 PM, Nickxnicho...@gmail.com wrote: I like how valve has absolutely no response to make regarding this subject. On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Saul Rennisonsaul.renni...@gmail.com wrote: Seconded! Thanks, - Saul. 2009/7/26 Matt Hoffman lord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com I for one would also like a fix for the ATI Hammer text... jaggies. Or should I make a separate hlcoders email about that instead of including all my hard-earned research in this one? On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Christopher Harris char...@resrchnet.comwrote: My only wish for updates to the tools is to update Faceposer to work fully with Vista. Currently it is not possible to do auto-generation of the lip-synch data in Vista, and furthermore another dev and I both had trouble on his XP machine locating a working link to the Speech SDK that Faceposer requires, all the MS links were 404, etc. I will just say that doing the lip synch data yourself is extremely lemons, not to mention that I am a coder not an artiste :D Chris -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Harry Pidcock Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 9:32 PM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Whitespace should be easy to embed in the engine if you create a wrapper that works with the feature I presented before. Whitespace is a very visual language that is great for particle effects and shaders(it is then translated into complex hlsl). -- From: Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 4:40 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine I thought it looked so clean and easy, then I selected the whitespace. =[ 2009/7/25 Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald voo...@voogru.com: I like this one better. http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Olly Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:54 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Its a good job you used tinyurl, otherwise it wouldn't have fit on my screen!... 2009/7/25 Harry Pidcock haz...@tpg.com.au Valve contacted me yesterday to tell me they have successfully implemented a new feature. http://tinyurl.com/4f6mt I hope to see more of these innovations in the future. -- From: Andrew Ritchie gotta...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:21 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Surely this topic could be split into several different points. Personally I see 4 different ones here. 1) Engine features 2) Tools Capabilities 3) Tools Availability 4) Tools Presentation The first is ignorable, Valve is clearly only going to add new features or change things, like BSP and displacement maps, when they think it's important. It's their engine and it needs to do what their games need doing. If you choose to use Source then you have to accept you are modding their engine. Sure TF, CS, DoD etc.. all were mods that made Valve a lot of money and brought huge success but they were also developed around the constraints of the engine rather than the engine being built FOR these mods to be made. If a technical limitation is big enough to warrent an engine change then do so rather than hanging about wanting Valve to add the feature, as big as the previous mentioned mods are you'd need to really prove you're up to their popularity before Valve would make a drastic change for you. So either accept the engine's features before you get underway or be prepared to encounter the fact you can't do certain things without a lot of work, if not at all. The Tools Capabilities I think is what Jed was really getting at, I don't mean like adding features to hammer and stuff but specifically allowing the chance for modders to by pass say model exporting to smd and just use a common format. The tool would need to have the importer and converter written but I personally think that approaching Valve with a specific and industry accepted intermediate format might be a good cause
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
How else is VAVLe going to be successful unless they listen to our helpful comments? It's obvious they don't know what they are doing and need our help. On 8/5/2009 5:47 PM, Garry Newman wrote: They're probably too busy doing actual work to respond to a list of scatterbrain pipe dream demands from a bunch of lazy modders. garry On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 11:34 PM, Nickxnicho...@gmail.com wrote: I like how valve has absolutely no response to make regarding this subject. On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Saul Rennisonsaul.renni...@gmail.com wrote: Seconded! Thanks, - Saul. 2009/7/26 Matt Hoffmanlord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com I for one would also like a fix for the ATI Hammer text... jaggies. Or should I make a separate hlcoders email about that instead of including all my hard-earned research in this one? On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Christopher Harris char...@resrchnet.comwrote: My only wish for updates to the tools is to update Faceposer to work fully with Vista. Currently it is not possible to do auto-generation of the lip-synch data in Vista, and furthermore another dev and I both had trouble on his XP machine locating a working link to the Speech SDK that Faceposer requires, all the MS links were 404, etc. I will just say that doing the lip synch data yourself is extremely lemons, not to mention that I am a coder not an artiste :D Chris -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Harry Pidcock Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 9:32 PM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Whitespace should be easy to embed in the engine if you create a wrapper that works with the feature I presented before. Whitespace is a very visual language that is great for particle effects and shaders(it is then translated into complex hlsl). -- From: Harry Jefferyharry101jeff...@googlemail.com Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 4:40 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine I thought it looked so clean and easy, then I selected the whitespace. =[ 2009/7/25 Spencer 'voogru' MacDonaldvoo...@voogru.com: I like this one better. http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Olly Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:54 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Its a good job you used tinyurl, otherwise it wouldn't have fit on my screen!... 2009/7/25 Harry Pidcockhaz...@tpg.com.au Valve contacted me yesterday to tell me they have successfully implemented a new feature. http://tinyurl.com/4f6mt I hope to see more of these innovations in the future. -- From: Andrew Ritchiegotta...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:21 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Surely this topic could be split into several different points. Personally I see 4 different ones here. 1) Engine features 2) Tools Capabilities 3) Tools Availability 4) Tools Presentation The first is ignorable, Valve is clearly only going to add new features or change things, like BSP and displacement maps, when they think it's important. It's their engine and it needs to do what their games need doing. If you choose to use Source then you have to accept you are modding their engine. Sure TF, CS, DoD etc.. all were mods that made Valve a lot of money and brought huge success but they were also developed around the constraints of the engine rather than the engine being built FOR these mods to be made. If a technical limitation is big enough to warrent an engine change then do so rather than hanging about wanting Valve to add the feature, as big as the previous mentioned mods are you'd need to really prove you're up to their popularity before Valve would make a drastic change for you. So either accept the engine's features before you get underway or be prepared to encounter the fact you can't do certain things without a lot of work, if not at all. The Tools Capabilities I think is what Jed was really getting at, I don't mean like adding features to hammer and stuff but specifically allowing the chance for modders to by pass say model exporting to smd and just use a common format. The tool would need to have the importer and converter written but I personally think that approaching Valve with a specific and industry accepted intermediate format might be a good cause. Especially if it makes life easier for getting the raw
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Hehe this all seems like an over grown Kettle of Fish Well heres my take on itYup the tools are old looking and all but the engine works fine I only played Halflife for the first time there last Easter i have only been a member of steam Since christmasBasically Hl2 and both episodes blew me awayIm a gamer at heart and i have played lots of games in my time but no other Engine has grabbed me by the balls like this one did I think that Alternative to Hammer you speak of is hereIts really only good for making structures and PrefabsIts called MicroBrushSeems hard to use but then again everything is on a first tryhttp://www.intercomm.com/shrinker/projects/Microbrush/ Well anyway i wanted to finish on a simple hard fact VALVe dont Hire Zed outZED hires them outZing!! Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Sorry, but you need to use a bit more punctuation in your mails, you don't use periods to stop your sentences making them really hard to read. Sorry for spamming your mailbox on another spam topic on this list. Sorry! - Original Message - From: cathal mc nally mcnallycat...@yahoo.ie To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 12:58 AM Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Hehe this all seems like an over grown Kettle of Fish Well heres my take on itYup the tools are old looking and all but the engine works fine I only played Halflife for the first time there last Easter i have only been a member of steam Since christmasBasically Hl2 and both episodes blew me awayIm a gamer at heart and i have played lots of games in my time but no other Engine has grabbed me by the balls like this one did I think that Alternative to Hammer you speak of is hereIts really only good for making structures and PrefabsIts called MicroBrushSeems hard to use but then again everything is on a first tryhttp://www.intercomm.com/shrinker/projects/Microbrush/ Well anyway i wanted to finish on a simple hard fact VALVe dont Hire Zed outZED hires them outZing!! Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Thats definetly not the way i wrote it so i apologise for Yahoos mail Chrachterisation Screw up on the part of the Return key:( Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
I for one would also like a fix for the ATI Hammer text... jaggies. Or should I make a separate hlcoders email about that instead of including all my hard-earned research in this one? On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Christopher Harris char...@resrchnet.comwrote: My only wish for updates to the tools is to update Faceposer to work fully with Vista. Currently it is not possible to do auto-generation of the lip-synch data in Vista, and furthermore another dev and I both had trouble on his XP machine locating a working link to the Speech SDK that Faceposer requires, all the MS links were 404, etc. I will just say that doing the lip synch data yourself is extremely lemons, not to mention that I am a coder not an artiste :D Chris -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Harry Pidcock Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 9:32 PM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Whitespace should be easy to embed in the engine if you create a wrapper that works with the feature I presented before. Whitespace is a very visual language that is great for particle effects and shaders(it is then translated into complex hlsl). -- From: Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 4:40 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine I thought it looked so clean and easy, then I selected the whitespace. =[ 2009/7/25 Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald voo...@voogru.com: I like this one better. http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Olly Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:54 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Its a good job you used tinyurl, otherwise it wouldn't have fit on my screen!... 2009/7/25 Harry Pidcock haz...@tpg.com.au Valve contacted me yesterday to tell me they have successfully implemented a new feature. http://tinyurl.com/4f6mt I hope to see more of these innovations in the future. -- From: Andrew Ritchie gotta...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:21 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Surely this topic could be split into several different points. Personally I see 4 different ones here. 1) Engine features 2) Tools Capabilities 3) Tools Availability 4) Tools Presentation The first is ignorable, Valve is clearly only going to add new features or change things, like BSP and displacement maps, when they think it's important. It's their engine and it needs to do what their games need doing. If you choose to use Source then you have to accept you are modding their engine. Sure TF, CS, DoD etc.. all were mods that made Valve a lot of money and brought huge success but they were also developed around the constraints of the engine rather than the engine being built FOR these mods to be made. If a technical limitation is big enough to warrent an engine change then do so rather than hanging about wanting Valve to add the feature, as big as the previous mentioned mods are you'd need to really prove you're up to their popularity before Valve would make a drastic change for you. So either accept the engine's features before you get underway or be prepared to encounter the fact you can't do certain things without a lot of work, if not at all. The Tools Capabilities I think is what Jed was really getting at, I don't mean like adding features to hammer and stuff but specifically allowing the chance for modders to by pass say model exporting to smd and just use a common format. The tool would need to have the importer and converter written but I personally think that approaching Valve with a specific and industry accepted intermediate format might be a good cause. Especially if it makes life easier for getting the raw assets into a format that the tool can then use. With the availability of tools, I mean those asking that they be open source. Specifically referring to a comment about hammer, look at Worldcraft and BSP ( Yahn's editor iirc ) they were originally personal projects. So you could take a leaf and have a bash at your own editor and open source it, you never know might turn out to be a better designed tool. However just having the source code to hammer, I doubt would be of any
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
yes, that would be better. 2009/7/26 Matt Hoffman lord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com: I for one would also like a fix for the ATI Hammer text... jaggies. Or should I make a separate hlcoders email about that instead of including all my hard-earned research in this one? On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Christopher Harris char...@resrchnet.comwrote: My only wish for updates to the tools is to update Faceposer to work fully with Vista. Currently it is not possible to do auto-generation of the lip-synch data in Vista, and furthermore another dev and I both had trouble on his XP machine locating a working link to the Speech SDK that Faceposer requires, all the MS links were 404, etc. I will just say that doing the lip synch data yourself is extremely lemons, not to mention that I am a coder not an artiste :D Chris -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Harry Pidcock Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 9:32 PM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Whitespace should be easy to embed in the engine if you create a wrapper that works with the feature I presented before. Whitespace is a very visual language that is great for particle effects and shaders(it is then translated into complex hlsl). -- From: Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 4:40 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine I thought it looked so clean and easy, then I selected the whitespace. =[ 2009/7/25 Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald voo...@voogru.com: I like this one better. http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Olly Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:54 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Its a good job you used tinyurl, otherwise it wouldn't have fit on my screen!... 2009/7/25 Harry Pidcock haz...@tpg.com.au Valve contacted me yesterday to tell me they have successfully implemented a new feature. http://tinyurl.com/4f6mt I hope to see more of these innovations in the future. -- From: Andrew Ritchie gotta...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:21 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Surely this topic could be split into several different points. Personally I see 4 different ones here. 1) Engine features 2) Tools Capabilities 3) Tools Availability 4) Tools Presentation The first is ignorable, Valve is clearly only going to add new features or change things, like BSP and displacement maps, when they think it's important. It's their engine and it needs to do what their games need doing. If you choose to use Source then you have to accept you are modding their engine. Sure TF, CS, DoD etc.. all were mods that made Valve a lot of money and brought huge success but they were also developed around the constraints of the engine rather than the engine being built FOR these mods to be made. If a technical limitation is big enough to warrent an engine change then do so rather than hanging about wanting Valve to add the feature, as big as the previous mentioned mods are you'd need to really prove you're up to their popularity before Valve would make a drastic change for you. So either accept the engine's features before you get underway or be prepared to encounter the fact you can't do certain things without a lot of work, if not at all. The Tools Capabilities I think is what Jed was really getting at, I don't mean like adding features to hammer and stuff but specifically allowing the chance for modders to by pass say model exporting to smd and just use a common format. The tool would need to have the importer and converter written but I personally think that approaching Valve with a specific and industry accepted intermediate format might be a good cause. Especially if it makes life easier for getting the raw assets into a format that the tool can then use. With the availability of tools, I mean those asking that they be open source. Specifically referring to a comment about hammer, look at Worldcraft and BSP ( Yahn's editor iirc ) they were originally personal projects. So you could take a leaf and have a bash at your own editor and open source it, you never know might turn out to be a better designed
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Seconded! Thanks, - Saul. 2009/7/26 Matt Hoffman lord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com I for one would also like a fix for the ATI Hammer text... jaggies. Or should I make a separate hlcoders email about that instead of including all my hard-earned research in this one? On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Christopher Harris char...@resrchnet.comwrote: My only wish for updates to the tools is to update Faceposer to work fully with Vista. Currently it is not possible to do auto-generation of the lip-synch data in Vista, and furthermore another dev and I both had trouble on his XP machine locating a working link to the Speech SDK that Faceposer requires, all the MS links were 404, etc. I will just say that doing the lip synch data yourself is extremely lemons, not to mention that I am a coder not an artiste :D Chris -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Harry Pidcock Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 9:32 PM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Whitespace should be easy to embed in the engine if you create a wrapper that works with the feature I presented before. Whitespace is a very visual language that is great for particle effects and shaders(it is then translated into complex hlsl). -- From: Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 4:40 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine I thought it looked so clean and easy, then I selected the whitespace. =[ 2009/7/25 Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald voo...@voogru.com: I like this one better. http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Olly Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:54 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Its a good job you used tinyurl, otherwise it wouldn't have fit on my screen!... 2009/7/25 Harry Pidcock haz...@tpg.com.au Valve contacted me yesterday to tell me they have successfully implemented a new feature. http://tinyurl.com/4f6mt I hope to see more of these innovations in the future. -- From: Andrew Ritchie gotta...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:21 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Surely this topic could be split into several different points. Personally I see 4 different ones here. 1) Engine features 2) Tools Capabilities 3) Tools Availability 4) Tools Presentation The first is ignorable, Valve is clearly only going to add new features or change things, like BSP and displacement maps, when they think it's important. It's their engine and it needs to do what their games need doing. If you choose to use Source then you have to accept you are modding their engine. Sure TF, CS, DoD etc.. all were mods that made Valve a lot of money and brought huge success but they were also developed around the constraints of the engine rather than the engine being built FOR these mods to be made. If a technical limitation is big enough to warrent an engine change then do so rather than hanging about wanting Valve to add the feature, as big as the previous mentioned mods are you'd need to really prove you're up to their popularity before Valve would make a drastic change for you. So either accept the engine's features before you get underway or be prepared to encounter the fact you can't do certain things without a lot of work, if not at all. The Tools Capabilities I think is what Jed was really getting at, I don't mean like adding features to hammer and stuff but specifically allowing the chance for modders to by pass say model exporting to smd and just use a common format. The tool would need to have the importer and converter written but I personally think that approaching Valve with a specific and industry accepted intermediate format might be a good cause. Especially if it makes life easier for getting the raw assets into a format that the tool can then use. With the availability of tools, I mean those asking that they be open source. Specifically referring to a comment about hammer, look at Worldcraft and BSP ( Yahn's editor iirc ) they were originally personal
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Valve contacted me yesterday to tell me they have successfully implemented a new feature. http://tinyurl.com/4f6mt I hope to see more of these innovations in the future. -- From: Andrew Ritchie gotta...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:21 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Surely this topic could be split into several different points. Personally I see 4 different ones here. 1) Engine features 2) Tools Capabilities 3) Tools Availability 4) Tools Presentation The first is ignorable, Valve is clearly only going to add new features or change things, like BSP and displacement maps, when they think it's important. It's their engine and it needs to do what their games need doing. If you choose to use Source then you have to accept you are modding their engine. Sure TF, CS, DoD etc.. all were mods that made Valve a lot of money and brought huge success but they were also developed around the constraints of the engine rather than the engine being built FOR these mods to be made. If a technical limitation is big enough to warrent an engine change then do so rather than hanging about wanting Valve to add the feature, as big as the previous mentioned mods are you'd need to really prove you're up to their popularity before Valve would make a drastic change for you. So either accept the engine's features before you get underway or be prepared to encounter the fact you can't do certain things without a lot of work, if not at all. The Tools Capabilities I think is what Jed was really getting at, I don't mean like adding features to hammer and stuff but specifically allowing the chance for modders to by pass say model exporting to smd and just use a common format. The tool would need to have the importer and converter written but I personally think that approaching Valve with a specific and industry accepted intermediate format might be a good cause. Especially if it makes life easier for getting the raw assets into a format that the tool can then use. With the availability of tools, I mean those asking that they be open source. Specifically referring to a comment about hammer, look at Worldcraft and BSP ( Yahn's editor iirc ) they were originally personal projects. So you could take a leaf and have a bash at your own editor and open source it, you never know might turn out to be a better designed tool. However just having the source code to hammer, I doubt would be of any benefit, you'd have dozens of versions of the tool floating around and do you really think you could add something useful to it? It may have bugs but if you advocate open source then why not take the initiative and lead by example? The last one, has been brought up in regards to wrapping a tool with a UI or removing the need for QC files. With this I think the issue is balancing the technical knowledge and the capabilities of a tool. However I feel it again falls back to a situation where Valve are happy to use it the way it is, they understand it and can get any of their tools to do what they need. It's the new, non technical, or perhaps slightly lazy people who would need that more complex aspects automated for them. I'd refer this back to Hammer, the early days of mapping could often mean rooting around in a hex or text editor and as things progressed and art started needing the technical requirements to be simplified you found map editors hiding away the old formats. Worldcraft and Hammer essentially sit between the user and the BSP, VIS, RAD etc.. compilers. The format they accept might be, at this stage, more heavily tied into hammer but it's still a front end for those. Again perhaps Worldcraft was a special case with Valve gobbling it up, HLMV too, but I think if the community is adamant enough about simplifying and unifying the tool chain then perhaps a bit of proactive development could lead the way or at least prove to Valve that everyone is serious about rethinking the way we interact with the SDK. Ok, sorry bit of a ramble but mainly what I wanted to share was that specific things like adding FBX to the formats studiomdl can accept would be good ventures as they are specific and have an immediately obvious reason. The other stuff like creating a unified system might be something that is best approached with good old community spirit. If you're serious enough about wanting to use the engine but can genuinely improve the way users develop for it then get organized and see if it's a viable thing to tackle. Even if it's just to prove you were right. I know the later is a bit of a cop out but Jed, Nem and NS2 (prior to dropping Source ) are examples of those who have gone out of their way to do so with tools and Garrys mod is a prime example of taking what
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
I like this one better. http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Olly Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:54 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Its a good job you used tinyurl, otherwise it wouldn't have fit on my screen!... 2009/7/25 Harry Pidcock haz...@tpg.com.au Valve contacted me yesterday to tell me they have successfully implemented a new feature. http://tinyurl.com/4f6mt I hope to see more of these innovations in the future. -- From: Andrew Ritchie gotta...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:21 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Surely this topic could be split into several different points. Personally I see 4 different ones here. 1) Engine features 2) Tools Capabilities 3) Tools Availability 4) Tools Presentation The first is ignorable, Valve is clearly only going to add new features or change things, like BSP and displacement maps, when they think it's important. It's their engine and it needs to do what their games need doing. If you choose to use Source then you have to accept you are modding their engine. Sure TF, CS, DoD etc.. all were mods that made Valve a lot of money and brought huge success but they were also developed around the constraints of the engine rather than the engine being built FOR these mods to be made. If a technical limitation is big enough to warrent an engine change then do so rather than hanging about wanting Valve to add the feature, as big as the previous mentioned mods are you'd need to really prove you're up to their popularity before Valve would make a drastic change for you. So either accept the engine's features before you get underway or be prepared to encounter the fact you can't do certain things without a lot of work, if not at all. The Tools Capabilities I think is what Jed was really getting at, I don't mean like adding features to hammer and stuff but specifically allowing the chance for modders to by pass say model exporting to smd and just use a common format. The tool would need to have the importer and converter written but I personally think that approaching Valve with a specific and industry accepted intermediate format might be a good cause. Especially if it makes life easier for getting the raw assets into a format that the tool can then use. With the availability of tools, I mean those asking that they be open source. Specifically referring to a comment about hammer, look at Worldcraft and BSP ( Yahn's editor iirc ) they were originally personal projects. So you could take a leaf and have a bash at your own editor and open source it, you never know might turn out to be a better designed tool. However just having the source code to hammer, I doubt would be of any benefit, you'd have dozens of versions of the tool floating around and do you really think you could add something useful to it? It may have bugs but if you advocate open source then why not take the initiative and lead by example? The last one, has been brought up in regards to wrapping a tool with a UI or removing the need for QC files. With this I think the issue is balancing the technical knowledge and the capabilities of a tool. However I feel it again falls back to a situation where Valve are happy to use it the way it is, they understand it and can get any of their tools to do what they need. It's the new, non technical, or perhaps slightly lazy people who would need that more complex aspects automated for them. I'd refer this back to Hammer, the early days of mapping could often mean rooting around in a hex or text editor and as things progressed and art started needing the technical requirements to be simplified you found map editors hiding away the old formats. Worldcraft and Hammer essentially sit between the user and the BSP, VIS, RAD etc.. compilers. The format they accept might be, at this stage, more heavily tied into hammer but it's still a front end for those. Again perhaps Worldcraft was a special case with Valve gobbling it up, HLMV too, but I think if the community is adamant enough about simplifying and unifying the tool chain then perhaps a bit of proactive development could lead the way or at least prove to Valve that everyone is serious about rethinking the way we interact with the SDK. Ok, sorry bit of a ramble but mainly what I wanted to share was that specific things like adding FBX to the formats studiomdl can accept would be good ventures as they are specific and have an immediately obvious reason. The other
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
I thought it looked so clean and easy, then I selected the whitespace. =[ 2009/7/25 Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald voo...@voogru.com: I like this one better. http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Olly Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:54 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Its a good job you used tinyurl, otherwise it wouldn't have fit on my screen!... 2009/7/25 Harry Pidcock haz...@tpg.com.au Valve contacted me yesterday to tell me they have successfully implemented a new feature. http://tinyurl.com/4f6mt I hope to see more of these innovations in the future. -- From: Andrew Ritchie gotta...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:21 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Surely this topic could be split into several different points. Personally I see 4 different ones here. 1) Engine features 2) Tools Capabilities 3) Tools Availability 4) Tools Presentation The first is ignorable, Valve is clearly only going to add new features or change things, like BSP and displacement maps, when they think it's important. It's their engine and it needs to do what their games need doing. If you choose to use Source then you have to accept you are modding their engine. Sure TF, CS, DoD etc.. all were mods that made Valve a lot of money and brought huge success but they were also developed around the constraints of the engine rather than the engine being built FOR these mods to be made. If a technical limitation is big enough to warrent an engine change then do so rather than hanging about wanting Valve to add the feature, as big as the previous mentioned mods are you'd need to really prove you're up to their popularity before Valve would make a drastic change for you. So either accept the engine's features before you get underway or be prepared to encounter the fact you can't do certain things without a lot of work, if not at all. The Tools Capabilities I think is what Jed was really getting at, I don't mean like adding features to hammer and stuff but specifically allowing the chance for modders to by pass say model exporting to smd and just use a common format. The tool would need to have the importer and converter written but I personally think that approaching Valve with a specific and industry accepted intermediate format might be a good cause. Especially if it makes life easier for getting the raw assets into a format that the tool can then use. With the availability of tools, I mean those asking that they be open source. Specifically referring to a comment about hammer, look at Worldcraft and BSP ( Yahn's editor iirc ) they were originally personal projects. So you could take a leaf and have a bash at your own editor and open source it, you never know might turn out to be a better designed tool. However just having the source code to hammer, I doubt would be of any benefit, you'd have dozens of versions of the tool floating around and do you really think you could add something useful to it? It may have bugs but if you advocate open source then why not take the initiative and lead by example? The last one, has been brought up in regards to wrapping a tool with a UI or removing the need for QC files. With this I think the issue is balancing the technical knowledge and the capabilities of a tool. However I feel it again falls back to a situation where Valve are happy to use it the way it is, they understand it and can get any of their tools to do what they need. It's the new, non technical, or perhaps slightly lazy people who would need that more complex aspects automated for them. I'd refer this back to Hammer, the early days of mapping could often mean rooting around in a hex or text editor and as things progressed and art started needing the technical requirements to be simplified you found map editors hiding away the old formats. Worldcraft and Hammer essentially sit between the user and the BSP, VIS, RAD etc.. compilers. The format they accept might be, at this stage, more heavily tied into hammer but it's still a front end for those. Again perhaps Worldcraft was a special case with Valve gobbling it up, HLMV too, but I think if the community is adamant enough about simplifying and unifying the tool chain then perhaps a bit of proactive development could lead the way or at least prove to Valve that everyone is serious about rethinking the way we interact with the SDK. Ok, sorry bit of a ramble but mainly what I wanted to share was that specific things
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Whitespace should be easy to embed in the engine if you create a wrapper that works with the feature I presented before. Whitespace is a very visual language that is great for particle effects and shaders(it is then translated into complex hlsl). -- From: Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 4:40 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine I thought it looked so clean and easy, then I selected the whitespace. =[ 2009/7/25 Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald voo...@voogru.com: I like this one better. http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ -Original Message- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Olly Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:54 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Its a good job you used tinyurl, otherwise it wouldn't have fit on my screen!... 2009/7/25 Harry Pidcock haz...@tpg.com.au Valve contacted me yesterday to tell me they have successfully implemented a new feature. http://tinyurl.com/4f6mt I hope to see more of these innovations in the future. -- From: Andrew Ritchie gotta...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:21 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Surely this topic could be split into several different points. Personally I see 4 different ones here. 1) Engine features 2) Tools Capabilities 3) Tools Availability 4) Tools Presentation The first is ignorable, Valve is clearly only going to add new features or change things, like BSP and displacement maps, when they think it's important. It's their engine and it needs to do what their games need doing. If you choose to use Source then you have to accept you are modding their engine. Sure TF, CS, DoD etc.. all were mods that made Valve a lot of money and brought huge success but they were also developed around the constraints of the engine rather than the engine being built FOR these mods to be made. If a technical limitation is big enough to warrent an engine change then do so rather than hanging about wanting Valve to add the feature, as big as the previous mentioned mods are you'd need to really prove you're up to their popularity before Valve would make a drastic change for you. So either accept the engine's features before you get underway or be prepared to encounter the fact you can't do certain things without a lot of work, if not at all. The Tools Capabilities I think is what Jed was really getting at, I don't mean like adding features to hammer and stuff but specifically allowing the chance for modders to by pass say model exporting to smd and just use a common format. The tool would need to have the importer and converter written but I personally think that approaching Valve with a specific and industry accepted intermediate format might be a good cause. Especially if it makes life easier for getting the raw assets into a format that the tool can then use. With the availability of tools, I mean those asking that they be open source. Specifically referring to a comment about hammer, look at Worldcraft and BSP ( Yahn's editor iirc ) they were originally personal projects. So you could take a leaf and have a bash at your own editor and open source it, you never know might turn out to be a better designed tool. However just having the source code to hammer, I doubt would be of any benefit, you'd have dozens of versions of the tool floating around and do you really think you could add something useful to it? It may have bugs but if you advocate open source then why not take the initiative and lead by example? The last one, has been brought up in regards to wrapping a tool with a UI or removing the need for QC files. With this I think the issue is balancing the technical knowledge and the capabilities of a tool. However I feel it again falls back to a situation where Valve are happy to use it the way it is, they understand it and can get any of their tools to do what they need. It's the new, non technical, or perhaps slightly lazy people who would need that more complex aspects automated for them. I'd refer this back to Hammer, the early days of mapping could often mean rooting around in a hex or text editor and as things progressed and art started needing the technical requirements to be simplified you found map editors hiding away the old formats. Worldcraft and Hammer essentially sit between the user and the BSP, VIS, RAD etc.. compilers
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Breaking stuff comes with the territory... but really it's not the tools, it's how you use them. And given how old the tech is, I'm amazed how long Valve has managed to push the limits of the engine without really changing the tool chain dramatically. I'm still waiting for the day they personally blow me away by introducing subtractive brushes, terrain layers along with a built-in UI for creating your own sprite emitters and shaders like UT has already had for years. As much as I sometimes love how everything is merely a set of large corridors which tricks you into thinking it's not, I hate trying to escape into directions that look reachable only to hit an invisible wall. -L On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 12:21 AM, Matt Hoffmanlord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com wrote: They seem to break stuff fixing other things. On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 10:11 PM, Jonathan Murphy nuclearfri...@gmail.comwrote: I certainly couldn't complain, where I work we make our level environments entirely in 3DSMAX... :( I imagine that if Valve is like most developers then they are quite adept enough at using their own tools that they don't see a huge need to revamp things into the more agile form that today's engines tool chains are moving towards. Sure there might be some benefit there but they seem to quite suffice as the quality of Valves games attest to. If it ain't broke, why fix it? On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Ryan Sheffer darksk...@gmail.com wrote: I remember some guy was developing an alternative to Hammer. I don't know what happened with that but it looked promising. On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 7:55 PM, Bob Somers magicbob...@gmail.com wrote: G typos... send = sending without = within --Bob On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 7:53 PM, Bob Somersmagicbob...@gmail.com wrote: There's nothing wrong with improvement, offering suggestions, or send your own improvements. Just be civil about it. I just get really tired of one guy making a perfectly civil suggestion, and then without hours my email box gets flooded with people tossing in their 2 cents and bitching about things like here's why the engine sucks or here's a laundry list of stuff they need to fix. Geez, if you hate it that much go mod on a different platform. Or at least keep your bitching off the list. This is a QA mailing list, not a feel-good Modders Anonymous support group. *steps off soap box* --Bob On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 6:59 PM, Giancarlo Rivas giaym.m...@gmail.com wrote: The solution is that valve hires Jed as Tools programmer. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- ~Ryan ( skidz ) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- Programmer for Resistance and Liberation www.resistanceandliberation.com Programmer for Red Tribe www.redtribe.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
- Why the hell are we still using SMD? Take a continuous mesh model, break it into triangles and re-compile it into tri-strips at compile. Hint Valve - either adapt your SMD/OBJ MRM hybrid format or just use DAE/FBX for God's sake. You'll find you don't need us to make SMD support for every 3D app out there if you adopt a cross application 3D format. The .smd format is extremely robust the way accomodates reference meshes, AND skeletal animation. So you want a method to go straight from 3d model / animation - .mdl ? How is that going to work with parametric animation? where you can combine multiple .smds to make an animation? ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
I think that project is defunct. Apparently making a better hammer is harder than just saying Let's make a better Hammer - Original Message - From: Ryan Sheffer darksk...@gmail.com To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 8:10 PM Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine I remember some guy was developing an alternative to Hammer. I don't know what happened with that but it looked promising. On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 7:55 PM, Bob Somers magicbob...@gmail.com wrote: G typos... send = sending without = within --Bob On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 7:53 PM, Bob Somersmagicbob...@gmail.com wrote: There's nothing wrong with improvement, offering suggestions, or send your own improvements. Just be civil about it. I just get really tired of one guy making a perfectly civil suggestion, and then without hours my email box gets flooded with people tossing in their 2 cents and bitching about things like here's why the engine sucks or here's a laundry list of stuff they need to fix. Geez, if you hate it that much go mod on a different platform. Or at least keep your bitching off the list. This is a QA mailing list, not a feel-good Modders Anonymous support group. *steps off soap box* --Bob On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 6:59 PM, Giancarlo Rivasgiaym.m...@gmail.com wrote: The solution is that valve hires Jed as Tools programmer. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- ~Ryan ( skidz ) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
No offense lech but subtractive brushes - sounds a lot like the hollow tool to me, you'd be far better off doing things manually terrain layers - displacements are more precise at the expense of a slightly harder implementation (Due to them only being where you want them they might actually be better for performance)a sprite emitters ui - you talking about particle effects creator? in that case load the game with the -tools command line option. I hate trying to escape into directions that look reachable only to hit an invisible wall - sorry but that to me means your level designers aren't doing their job properly, I've never had that problem in any of the official maps in the games inside the orangebox Bear in mind I'm unfamilar with UT toolset so I may be mis-interpretting what you mean. 2009/7/24 Lech unatten...@gmail.com: Breaking stuff comes with the territory... but really it's not the tools, it's how you use them. And given how old the tech is, I'm amazed how long Valve has managed to push the limits of the engine without really changing the tool chain dramatically. I'm still waiting for the day they personally blow me away by introducing subtractive brushes, terrain layers along with a built-in UI for creating your own sprite emitters and shaders like UT has already had for years. As much as I sometimes love how everything is merely a set of large corridors which tricks you into thinking it's not, I hate trying to escape into directions that look reachable only to hit an invisible wall. -L On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 12:21 AM, Matt Hoffmanlord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com wrote: They seem to break stuff fixing other things. On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 10:11 PM, Jonathan Murphy nuclearfri...@gmail.comwrote: I certainly couldn't complain, where I work we make our level environments entirely in 3DSMAX... :( I imagine that if Valve is like most developers then they are quite adept enough at using their own tools that they don't see a huge need to revamp things into the more agile form that today's engines tool chains are moving towards. Sure there might be some benefit there but they seem to quite suffice as the quality of Valves games attest to. If it ain't broke, why fix it? On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Ryan Sheffer darksk...@gmail.com wrote: I remember some guy was developing an alternative to Hammer. I don't know what happened with that but it looked promising. On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 7:55 PM, Bob Somers magicbob...@gmail.com wrote: G typos... send = sending without = within --Bob On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 7:53 PM, Bob Somersmagicbob...@gmail.com wrote: There's nothing wrong with improvement, offering suggestions, or send your own improvements. Just be civil about it. I just get really tired of one guy making a perfectly civil suggestion, and then without hours my email box gets flooded with people tossing in their 2 cents and bitching about things like here's why the engine sucks or here's a laundry list of stuff they need to fix. Geez, if you hate it that much go mod on a different platform. Or at least keep your bitching off the list. This is a QA mailing list, not a feel-good Modders Anonymous support group. *steps off soap box* --Bob On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 6:59 PM, Giancarlo Rivas giaym.m...@gmail.com wrote: The solution is that valve hires Jed as Tools programmer. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- ~Ryan ( skidz ) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- Programmer for Resistance and Liberation www.resistanceandliberation.com Programmer for Red Tribe www.redtribe.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
As much as I hate to admit it, in my eyes, Valve has definitely fallen out of my favour for purposes of modding. I think the problem is that the engine and processes have gotten much more complex than the HL1 days. The purpose of modding is (well at least I think it is) to give amateur gamers an avenue to creating games easily and quickly. The Source engine doesn't fulfill this requirement anymore, learning the tools, asset pipelines and code (or even C++!) present a large barrier to getting started. If someone with minimal experience came up to me right now and asked me how to learn development I would most likely point them in the direction of the Unreal engine first. But of course the ability to write your mod in C++ presents lots of interesting avenues that Unreal Script probably can't compare to. And it is quite feasible to learn the asset processes but it's very easy to get discouraged with the time it takes to make a game on the Source engine. On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 10:51 PM, botman botman.hlcod...@gmail.com wrote: How DARE you come on to this list and respond with a well thought out and reasonable response? Don't you know this this list is only for whiners and n00bs? GTFO!!1! :) On 7/23/2009 7:28 PM, Bob Somers wrote: With all due respect to you guys, I think you're forgetting that ultimately Valve is not in the mod-support business. They're in the business of making their own games, and the success of their titles shows how well they do it. Their tools are designed for the way the workflow happens at Valve, not at your house. They're providing their tools to you as a courtesy. Now, if they want to take suggestions from the community that's great, but ultimately you're getting all their tools for free so it's really too bad if they don't work they way you want them to. I'm not well versed in the model compilation process for Source, but there's one thing a command line interface has over a GUI... scriptability. In a big software company, the rule of thumb is that anything that can be automated should be automated. You can't script a GUI (at least, not very easily at all). --Bob On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Saul Rennisonsaul.renni...@gmail.com wrote: Hell I'm on Summer Holidays, I'll give this a go, although it does mean I'd have to do texture support which I'm not so great at. But GCF support is possible via Nemesis' HLlib. All replies in this topic bring up good points in the Source Engine, heres my 2 pence: I don't agree with the fact Source doesn't have good physics. Source should move to DAE. StudioMDL and HLMV should be open-source, leave P4 integration in, we only need the code / snippets from it. There's probably more but I can't be bothered replying. Thanks, -Saul. On 24 Jul 2009, at 00:17, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: If it's all made nice and modular and supports either dll or python plugins I think it would work great. Nothing there that should be too hard to re-implement. 2009/7/24 Matt Hoffmanlord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com: Because... Hell that's a good point. The VMF document format isn't exactly hard to understand. The compile tools are all plugged-in. Only thing you would have issues with (I'd Imagine): Loading from the GCFS quickly, and efficiently. Though I imagine Jed would have a solution there. Displacements could also be an issue. I'd imagine it's possible. On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: 1. Update SDK and make it uber leet as per suggestions. 2. Distribute SDK (not on valvetime please) 3. Studios pay for license 4. More mods become commercially viable (e.g. GMod) 5. ? 6. Profit! But seriously, it can be done. And if hammer is so bad why has the community not started work on an opensource version with python support for plugins. 2009/7/23 Jorge Rodriguezbs.v...@gmail.com: Source engine works just fine for outdoors areas. Did you people forget that half of HL2 and the episodes take place outdoors? Obviously it doesn't scale up to GTA-size large areas, but it can handle some pretty large areas. -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
I basically summed up the entire thread for everyone. Give modders better tools: Open source hammer. Open source all tools. Release specs on proprietary formats Enable a lua added version of sdk allow some sort of documentation of the non-released parts of sdk (release entire sdk, but have only clientside code available) Make it easier to create content, and modify the engine. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
In a nutshell, asking far too much. On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Nick xnicho...@gmail.com wrote: I basically summed up the entire thread for everyone. Give modders better tools: Open source hammer. Open source all tools. Release specs on proprietary formats Enable a lua added version of sdk allow some sort of documentation of the non-released parts of sdk (release entire sdk, but have only clientside code available) Make it easier to create content, and modify the engine. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- ~Ryan ( skidz ) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
No kidding. Nothing like asking a company who's in business to make money to throw their profit making tools into the public domain... --Bob On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Ryan Shefferdarksk...@gmail.com wrote: In a nutshell, asking far too much. On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Nick xnicho...@gmail.com wrote: I basically summed up the entire thread for everyone. Give modders better tools: Open source hammer. Open source all tools. Release specs on proprietary formats Enable a lua added version of sdk allow some sort of documentation of the non-released parts of sdk (release entire sdk, but have only clientside code available) Make it easier to create content, and modify the engine. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- ~Ryan ( skidz ) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Profit making? The only games that made profit on the source engine are the ones by valve and the one by garry. I believe the NS2 engine will be everything you guys here wanted. They took all the best aspects of the source engine, gutted them out and rewrote them. They will have better tools, better everything, all written by 2 guys (probably just 1 guy). And it will all have derived from the Source Engine. From what little we have seen it seems to be shaping up quite nicely. On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 2:11 PM, Bob Somers magicbob...@gmail.com wrote: No kidding. Nothing like asking a company who's in business to make money to throw their profit making tools into the public domain... --Bob On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Ryan Shefferdarksk...@gmail.com wrote: In a nutshell, asking far too much. On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Nick xnicho...@gmail.com wrote: I basically summed up the entire thread for everyone. Give modders better tools: Open source hammer. Open source all tools. Release specs on proprietary formats Enable a lua added version of sdk allow some sort of documentation of the non-released parts of sdk (release entire sdk, but have only clientside code available) Make it easier to create content, and modify the engine. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- ~Ryan ( skidz ) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
I've personally not had a problem with the toolset myself. If developers want a nice easy way to make a fps game they should grab a copy of fpscreator or darkbasic. But if you're serious about modding then source engine is fine. Good code access, a wiki with lots of useful information and a community who answers questions. We have what we need if we include Jed's stuff. Why should valve spend time and money remaking them when they already exist in the community? It's like valve deciding the hoodoo was a good map for tf2 and so they decide to build it from ground up. Bad idea. Much easier just to make it official in it's current state. 2009/7/24 Bob Somers magicbob...@gmail.com: No kidding. Nothing like asking a company who's in business to make money to throw their profit making tools into the public domain... --Bob On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Ryan Shefferdarksk...@gmail.com wrote: In a nutshell, asking far too much. On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Nick xnicho...@gmail.com wrote: I basically summed up the entire thread for everyone. Give modders better tools: Open source hammer. Open source all tools. Release specs on proprietary formats Enable a lua added version of sdk allow some sort of documentation of the non-released parts of sdk (release entire sdk, but have only clientside code available) Make it easier to create content, and modify the engine. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- ~Ryan ( skidz ) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
NS2 engine? Please enlighten us with more than that acronym. 2009/7/24 Joel R. joelru...@gmail.com: Profit making? The only games that made profit on the source engine are the ones by valve and the one by garry. I believe the NS2 engine will be everything you guys here wanted. They took all the best aspects of the source engine, gutted them out and rewrote them. They will have better tools, better everything, all written by 2 guys (probably just 1 guy). And it will all have derived from the Source Engine. From what little we have seen it seems to be shaping up quite nicely. On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 2:11 PM, Bob Somers magicbob...@gmail.com wrote: No kidding. Nothing like asking a company who's in business to make money to throw their profit making tools into the public domain... --Bob On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Ryan Shefferdarksk...@gmail.com wrote: In a nutshell, asking far too much. On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Nick xnicho...@gmail.com wrote: I basically summed up the entire thread for everyone. Give modders better tools: Open source hammer. Open source all tools. Release specs on proprietary formats Enable a lua added version of sdk allow some sort of documentation of the non-released parts of sdk (release entire sdk, but have only clientside code available) Make it easier to create content, and modify the engine. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- ~Ryan ( skidz ) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
...and then pigs will fly. :) On 7/24/2009 2:19 PM, Joel R. wrote: Profit making? The only games that made profit on the source engine are the ones by valve and the one by garry. I believe the NS2 engine will be everything you guys here wanted. They took all the best aspects of the source engine, gutted them out and rewrote them. They will have better tools, better everything, all written by 2 guys (probably just 1 guy). And it will all have derived from the Source Engine. From what little we have seen it seems to be shaping up quite nicely. On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 2:11 PM, Bob Somersmagicbob...@gmail.com wrote: No kidding. Nothing like asking a company who's in business to make money to throw their profit making tools into the public domain... --Bob On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Ryan Shefferdarksk...@gmail.com wrote: In a nutshell, asking far too much. On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Nickxnicho...@gmail.com wrote: I basically summed up the entire thread for everyone. Give modders better tools: Open source hammer. Open source all tools. Release specs on proprietary formats Enable a lua added version of sdk allow some sort of documentation of the non-released parts of sdk (release entire sdk, but have only clientside code available) Make it easier to create content, and modify the engine. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- ~Ryan ( skidz ) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- Jeffrey botman Broome ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 2:41 AM, Minh minh...@telus.net wrote: The .smd format is extremely robust the way accomodates reference meshes, AND skeletal animation. So you want a method to go straight from 3d model / animation - .mdl ? How is that going to work with parametric animation? where you can combine multiple .smds to make an animation? Minh, while the capabilities of the studio compiler are formidable, it still leaves much to be desired in terms of file format and syntax. Don't tell me you've never struggled with the qc format. I am constantly having problems with its limitations. It's a rather robust system that allows for combining animations in many interesting ways, but the syntax still pisses me off quite a bit, and the technicality of it leaves it out of reach of most artists. I hear Valve wrote some simple tools around it, but I'm surprised they haven't replaced it entirely. The SMD format is perhaps a bit clunky, but I don't have too many problems with it, because it does exactly what is needed, even if it does it in a bit of a backwards way. On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Joel R. joelru...@gmail.com wrote: I believe the NS2 engine will be everything you guys here wanted. They took all the best aspects of the source engine, gutted them out and rewrote them. They will have better tools, better everything, all written by 2 guys (probably just 1 guy). And it will all have derived from the Source Engine. From what little we have seen it seems to be shaping up quite nicely. I don't mean to detract from the efforts of the UW guys, but creating their own engine for NS2 was a huge undertaking and they may have gotten in over their heads. I heard from a reliable source in March that it was supposed to be out this summer, but I don't see them as being anywhere close to that. Moreover, the NS2 engine is not based on the Source engine at all, as licensing restrictions prevent them from using anything from Valve, even file formats. Last I saw, they hadn't ported over to their own file formats yet, and it's easy to underestimate all of the behind the scenes stuff that Source does that they have to rewrite. (i18n, networking, scene management, resources, fx systems, and so on.) I want to play NS2 as badly as you do, but I wouldn't hold your breath for this superior technology, which will likely end up being just another way of drawing those corridors and hallways that NS2 is full of, that everybody keeps complaining about in this thread. All we've seen so far is a tech demo and a teaser trailer, which signals to me that they still have a while to go. (And a sincere good luck to them too.) -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Well at least Garry has sanity. I always wondered why he used lua. Python is much easier. Look what some guy did to bf2 using the python modding capabilities: http://sandboxmod.com/ 2009/7/24 Saul Rennison saul.renni...@gmail.com: Enable a lua added version of sdk As soon as Garry uses Lua, which even he now accepts to be absolutely disgusting, everyone thinks it's absolutely brilliant: it's a terrible language. You'd be better off with a better C++ API and or Python scripting. (release entire sdk, but have only clientside code available) What's that supposed to mean? Thanks, - Saul. 2009/7/24 Nick xnicho...@gmail.com I basically summed up the entire thread for everyone. Give modders better tools: Open source hammer. Open source all tools. Release specs on proprietary formats Enable a lua added version of sdk allow some sort of documentation of the non-released parts of sdk (release entire sdk, but have only clientside code available) Make it easier to create content, and modify the engine. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
I'd still choose Lua's syntax over Python's though. I just want PHP scripting in my game :0 As for the engine. Yeah sometimes it feels stupid and old, but it seems like every time you start to count Valve out they come back and knock your head off with some awesome shit. garry On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 8:58 PM, Harry Jefferyharry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: Well at least Garry has sanity. I always wondered why he used lua. Python is much easier. Look what some guy did to bf2 using the python modding capabilities: http://sandboxmod.com/ 2009/7/24 Saul Rennison saul.renni...@gmail.com: Enable a lua added version of sdk As soon as Garry uses Lua, which even he now accepts to be absolutely disgusting, everyone thinks it's absolutely brilliant: it's a terrible language. You'd be better off with a better C++ API and or Python scripting. (release entire sdk, but have only clientside code available) What's that supposed to mean? Thanks, - Saul. 2009/7/24 Nick xnicho...@gmail.com I basically summed up the entire thread for everyone. Give modders better tools: Open source hammer. Open source all tools. Release specs on proprietary formats Enable a lua added version of sdk allow some sort of documentation of the non-released parts of sdk (release entire sdk, but have only clientside code available) Make it easier to create content, and modify the engine. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
No I wasn't advocating an 3D app - MDL path. Simply adding support for a more common/cross platform 3D format to those that StudioMDL supports. The problem with the SMD format is that it's an old format from and old engine and requires plug-ins to be written for 3D apps to support it. This leaves it down to Valve to write them. Take Max for example - a plug-in for one version does not automatically work with another, it needs to be recompiled against the new versions SDK. A shop like Valve is probably only going to have one version and not upgrade every time a new one comes along. Therefore SMD plug-ins for other versions are going to have to be made by the 3D app users themselves. Now there are plenty of suitable cross-app 3D formats such as DAE, FBX, etc. that Valve could add support for to the StudioMDL compiler (and I've vocally expressed this to Valve many times) in *addition* to the SMD, OBJ and MRM formats it already supports. So why should they do it? - Common file format means more 3D apps that can produce content out-of-the-box or via publisher made plug-ins. For example DAE/FBX is supported by XSI, Maya, Max, Blender, Milkshape3D, etc, etc. - Gives modders/studios/licensees choice to use the 3D app of their choice to create content. - Valve doesn't need to produce plug-ins for apps, just support the format in the compiler. Simply put SMD format is binding end users to the few apps that write it and the generosity of community users such as myself, Prall, et al. to write these plug-ins for the 3D apps we want to use. Interesting case in point - a Canadian studio approached me once asking me when my plug-ins would be available for 3DS Max 2009 because that was their in-shop 3D content creation tool and they had invested a lot of money in software and training and didn't want to have to move to something else. Their apparent decision to purchase a Source license for their title was hanging on the availability of plug-ins for Max. My main issue with some of the SDK tool is that that it feels like Valve aren't being smart about it. Good tools means wider adoption which might result in more licensees and from a modders perspective, more people getting into it and maybe making the next CSS/TF2/Portal that Valve can snap up as their IP. I think Valve should have a dedicated tool guy (not me) turning out polished useful tools - not this rehashed crap that's hung over from Half-Life 1. - Start over with StudioMDL - make it a GUI app from the start (and adding batch/scripting to it wouldn't be hard) - Make HLMV a proper MFC of WPF app and get rid of the old buggy mxtk GUI from Mete's HLMV. - Add support form more 3D modern file formats and eventually phase out SMD, etc. - If for license/NDA reasons you can't release all the source code for apps, at least release parts of it. A lot can be learned from even partial code that could help us as modders make our own apps. - Add some SDK tool API stuff - for example code to render a 3D window like in HLMV. It can still require steam but make it accessible so that developers can add support for model rendering in other apps. - Polished tools will make the SDK/Engine more attractive to end users. Modding shouldn't be a right of passage but a warm welcoming experience to inspire the next great ideas. I could go on but you get the general idea... - Jed 2009/7/24 Jorge Rodriguez bs.v...@gmail.com: On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 2:41 AM, Minh minh...@telus.net wrote: The .smd format is extremely robust the way accomodates reference meshes, AND skeletal animation. So you want a method to go straight from 3d model / animation - .mdl ? How is that going to work with parametric animation? where you can combine multiple .smds to make an animation? Minh, while the capabilities of the studio compiler are formidable, it still leaves much to be desired in terms of file format and syntax. Don't tell me you've never struggled with the qc format. I am constantly having problems with its limitations. It's a rather robust system that allows for combining animations in many interesting ways, but the syntax still pisses me off quite a bit, and the technicality of it leaves it out of reach of most artists. I hear Valve wrote some simple tools around it, but I'm surprised they haven't replaced it entirely. The SMD format is perhaps a bit clunky, but I don't have too many problems with it, because it does exactly what is needed, even if it does it in a bit of a backwards way. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Have you tried Python properly? :) Thanks, - Saul. 2009/7/24 Garry Newman garrynew...@gmail.com I'd still choose Lua's syntax over Python's though. I just want PHP scripting in my game :0 As for the engine. Yeah sometimes it feels stupid and old, but it seems like every time you start to count Valve out they come back and knock your head off with some awesome shit. garry On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 8:58 PM, Harry Jefferyharry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: Well at least Garry has sanity. I always wondered why he used lua. Python is much easier. Look what some guy did to bf2 using the python modding capabilities: http://sandboxmod.com/ 2009/7/24 Saul Rennison saul.renni...@gmail.com: Enable a lua added version of sdk As soon as Garry uses Lua, which even he now accepts to be absolutely disgusting, everyone thinks it's absolutely brilliant: it's a terrible language. You'd be better off with a better C++ API and or Python scripting. (release entire sdk, but have only clientside code available) What's that supposed to mean? Thanks, - Saul. 2009/7/24 Nick xnicho...@gmail.com I basically summed up the entire thread for everyone. Give modders better tools: Open source hammer. Open source all tools. Release specs on proprietary formats Enable a lua added version of sdk allow some sort of documentation of the non-released parts of sdk (release entire sdk, but have only clientside code available) Make it easier to create content, and modify the engine. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
I don't think addressing these concerns would hurt their profits at all. I imagine many of the folks at Valve are aware and in fact, would like to fix these issues but they choose to prioritize their time on other things. We don't even know what they're working on these days so it's hard for us to say that they're not addressing these problems internally. Rest assured, they are reading these forums and they are aware of the concerns. Their decision to address them is strictly their prerogative. I'm sure many of us would do things differently if we had our foot in Valve's offices but that's what seperates us from Valve. As an amateur developer, I've learned to just work with the tools that have been given to me.. I'm aware of the engine's deficiencies but I choose to work with it because it offers me what i need. If I chose to work with the Unreal engine, I'm sure I can come up with a list of things I'd like to change in that engine as well. I think it's easier to adapt my workflow to the engine, than to wait on the engine developer to adapt the engine to my workflow... especially when we all know that Valve are more focused on making great games than making easy to use engine + tools. You guys might be waiting for awhile... - Original Message - From: Bob Somers magicbob...@gmail.com To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine No kidding. Nothing like asking a company who's in business to make money to throw their profit making tools into the public domain... --Bob On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Ryan Shefferdarksk...@gmail.com wrote: In a nutshell, asking far too much. On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Nick xnicho...@gmail.com wrote: I basically summed up the entire thread for everyone. Give modders better tools: Open source hammer. Open source all tools. Release specs on proprietary formats Enable a lua added version of sdk allow some sort of documentation of the non-released parts of sdk (release entire sdk, but have only clientside code available) Make it easier to create content, and modify the engine. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- ~Ryan ( skidz ) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Not to mention this engine took many years to build, if they take just as much time on the next engine they would have to start now. Source Engine will only last so long as a modern engine. Maybe we're in for some of that knock your heads off excitement. From a business perspective it must be done. On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Minh minh...@telus.net wrote: I don't think addressing these concerns would hurt their profits at all. I imagine many of the folks at Valve are aware and in fact, would like to fix these issues but they choose to prioritize their time on other things. We don't even know what they're working on these days so it's hard for us to say that they're not addressing these problems internally. Rest assured, they are reading these forums and they are aware of the concerns. Their decision to address them is strictly their prerogative. I'm sure many of us would do things differently if we had our foot in Valve's offices but that's what seperates us from Valve. As an amateur developer, I've learned to just work with the tools that have been given to me.. I'm aware of the engine's deficiencies but I choose to work with it because it offers me what i need. If I chose to work with the Unreal engine, I'm sure I can come up with a list of things I'd like to change in that engine as well. I think it's easier to adapt my workflow to the engine, than to wait on the engine developer to adapt the engine to my workflow... especially when we all know that Valve are more focused on making great games than making easy to use engine + tools. You guys might be waiting for awhile... - Original Message - From: Bob Somers magicbob...@gmail.com To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine No kidding. Nothing like asking a company who's in business to make money to throw their profit making tools into the public domain... --Bob On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Ryan Shefferdarksk...@gmail.com wrote: In a nutshell, asking far too much. On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Nick xnicho...@gmail.com wrote: I basically summed up the entire thread for everyone. Give modders better tools: Open source hammer. Open source all tools. Release specs on proprietary formats Enable a lua added version of sdk allow some sort of documentation of the non-released parts of sdk (release entire sdk, but have only clientside code available) Make it easier to create content, and modify the engine. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- ~Ryan ( skidz ) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
As a 3D modeller, animator, and mapper, (and not a coder) I agree with what Jed said 100%. Jed, can you please just go work for Valve? great, thanks! On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 12:23 PM, Jed j...@wunderboy.org wrote: No I wasn't advocating an 3D app - MDL path. Simply adding support for a more common/cross platform 3D format to those that StudioMDL supports. The problem with the SMD format is that it's an old format from and old engine and requires plug-ins to be written for 3D apps to support it. This leaves it down to Valve to write them. Take Max for example - a plug-in for one version does not automatically work with another, it needs to be recompiled against the new versions SDK. A shop like Valve is probably only going to have one version and not upgrade every time a new one comes along. Therefore SMD plug-ins for other versions are going to have to be made by the 3D app users themselves. Now there are plenty of suitable cross-app 3D formats such as DAE, FBX, etc. that Valve could add support for to the StudioMDL compiler (and I've vocally expressed this to Valve many times) in *addition* to the SMD, OBJ and MRM formats it already supports. So why should they do it? - Common file format means more 3D apps that can produce content out-of-the-box or via publisher made plug-ins. For example DAE/FBX is supported by XSI, Maya, Max, Blender, Milkshape3D, etc, etc. - Gives modders/studios/licensees choice to use the 3D app of their choice to create content. - Valve doesn't need to produce plug-ins for apps, just support the format in the compiler. Simply put SMD format is binding end users to the few apps that write it and the generosity of community users such as myself, Prall, et al. to write these plug-ins for the 3D apps we want to use. Interesting case in point - a Canadian studio approached me once asking me when my plug-ins would be available for 3DS Max 2009 because that was their in-shop 3D content creation tool and they had invested a lot of money in software and training and didn't want to have to move to something else. Their apparent decision to purchase a Source license for their title was hanging on the availability of plug-ins for Max. My main issue with some of the SDK tool is that that it feels like Valve aren't being smart about it. Good tools means wider adoption which might result in more licensees and from a modders perspective, more people getting into it and maybe making the next CSS/TF2/Portal that Valve can snap up as their IP. I think Valve should have a dedicated tool guy (not me) turning out polished useful tools - not this rehashed crap that's hung over from Half-Life 1. - Start over with StudioMDL - make it a GUI app from the start (and adding batch/scripting to it wouldn't be hard) - Make HLMV a proper MFC of WPF app and get rid of the old buggy mxtk GUI from Mete's HLMV. - Add support form more 3D modern file formats and eventually phase out SMD, etc. - If for license/NDA reasons you can't release all the source code for apps, at least release parts of it. A lot can be learned from even partial code that could help us as modders make our own apps. - Add some SDK tool API stuff - for example code to render a 3D window like in HLMV. It can still require steam but make it accessible so that developers can add support for model rendering in other apps. - Polished tools will make the SDK/Engine more attractive to end users. Modding shouldn't be a right of passage but a warm welcoming experience to inspire the next great ideas. I could go on but you get the general idea... - Jed 2009/7/24 Jorge Rodriguez bs.v...@gmail.com: On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 2:41 AM, Minh minh...@telus.net wrote: The .smd format is extremely robust the way accomodates reference meshes, AND skeletal animation. So you want a method to go straight from 3d model / animation - .mdl ? How is that going to work with parametric animation? where you can combine multiple .smds to make an animation? Minh, while the capabilities of the studio compiler are formidable, it still leaves much to be desired in terms of file format and syntax. Don't tell me you've never struggled with the qc format. I am constantly having problems with its limitations. It's a rather robust system that allows for combining animations in many interesting ways, but the syntax still pisses me off quite a bit, and the technicality of it leaves it out of reach of most artists. I hear Valve wrote some simple tools around it, but I'm surprised they haven't replaced it entirely. The SMD format is perhaps a bit clunky, but I don't have too many problems with it, because it does exactly what is needed, even if it does it in a bit of a backwards way. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Minh, I think you just produced the best argument in the conversation so far. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Minh, I was talking about open sourcing their tools. I just don't think that makes any business sense for them. It makes sense from our perspective, sure, but from theirs... little to none. Also, excellent point about adapting your workflow to the engine and the other way around. This is the best way to work with any, large, complex system. It takes longer to learn how to work in someone else's environment, but you save loads of time in the long run rather than struggling to make someone else's paradigm fit into what you want. --Bob On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 3:20 PM, Harry Jefferyharry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: Minh, I think you just produced the best argument in the conversation so far. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Bob Somers wrote: Minh, I was talking about open sourcing their tools. I just don't think that makes any business sense for them. It makes sense from our perspective, sure, but from theirs... little to none. Also, excellent point about adapting your workflow to the engine and the other way around. This is the best way to work with any, large, complex system. It takes longer to learn how to work in someone else's environment, but you save loads of time in the long run rather than struggling to make someone else's paradigm fit into what you want. --Bob On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 3:20 PM, Harry Jefferyharry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: Minh, I think you just produced the best argument in the conversation so far. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders Personally, I think Valve should leave Source as it is for now. If they're going to take a huge step such as open-sourcing hammer or adding scripting support, then they should leave it until they release a new engine. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Like Episode 3 engine? DUN DUN DUN Thanks, -Saul. On 25 Jul 2009, at 00:21, Logan Baldock p3wner...@gmail.com wrote: Bob Somers wrote: Minh, I was talking about open sourcing their tools. I just don't think that makes any business sense for them. It makes sense from our perspective, sure, but from theirs... little to none. Also, excellent point about adapting your workflow to the engine and the other way around. This is the best way to work with any, large, complex system. It takes longer to learn how to work in someone else's environment, but you save loads of time in the long run rather than struggling to make someone else's paradigm fit into what you want. --Bob On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 3:20 PM, Harry Jefferyharry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: Minh, I think you just produced the best argument in the conversation so far. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders Personally, I think Valve should leave Source as it is for now. If they're going to take a huge step such as open-sourcing hammer or adding scripting support, then they should leave it until they release a new engine. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
According to valve time that'll be when hell freezes over. :( 2009/7/25 Saul Rennison saul.renni...@gmail.com: Like Episode 3 engine? DUN DUN DUN Thanks, -Saul. On 25 Jul 2009, at 00:21, Logan Baldock p3wner...@gmail.com wrote: Bob Somers wrote: Minh, I was talking about open sourcing their tools. I just don't think that makes any business sense for them. It makes sense from our perspective, sure, but from theirs... little to none. Also, excellent point about adapting your workflow to the engine and the other way around. This is the best way to work with any, large, complex system. It takes longer to learn how to work in someone else's environment, but you save loads of time in the long run rather than struggling to make someone else's paradigm fit into what you want. --Bob On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 3:20 PM, Harry Jefferyharry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: Minh, I think you just produced the best argument in the conversation so far. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders Personally, I think Valve should leave Source as it is for now. If they're going to take a huge step such as open-sourcing hammer or adding scripting support, then they should leave it until they release a new engine. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Or when Duke Nukem Forever goes gold. Thanks, -Saul. On 25 Jul 2009, at 00:58, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: According to valve time that'll be when hell freezes over. :( 2009/7/25 Saul Rennison saul.renni...@gmail.com: Like Episode 3 engine? DUN DUN DUN Thanks, -Saul. On 25 Jul 2009, at 00:21, Logan Baldock p3wner...@gmail.com wrote: Bob Somers wrote: Minh, I was talking about open sourcing their tools. I just don't think that makes any business sense for them. It makes sense from our perspective, sure, but from theirs... little to none. Also, excellent point about adapting your workflow to the engine and the other way around. This is the best way to work with any, large, complex system. It takes longer to learn how to work in someone else's environment, but you save loads of time in the long run rather than struggling to make someone else's paradigm fit into what you want. --Bob On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 3:20 PM, Harry Jefferyharry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: Minh, I think you just produced the best argument in the conversation so far. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders Personally, I think Valve should leave Source as it is for now. If they're going to take a huge step such as open-sourcing hammer or adding scripting support, then they should leave it until they release a new engine. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Surely this topic could be split into several different points. Personally I see 4 different ones here. 1) Engine features 2) Tools Capabilities 3) Tools Availability 4) Tools Presentation The first is ignorable, Valve is clearly only going to add new features or change things, like BSP and displacement maps, when they think it's important. It's their engine and it needs to do what their games need doing. If you choose to use Source then you have to accept you are modding their engine. Sure TF, CS, DoD etc.. all were mods that made Valve a lot of money and brought huge success but they were also developed around the constraints of the engine rather than the engine being built FOR these mods to be made. If a technical limitation is big enough to warrent an engine change then do so rather than hanging about wanting Valve to add the feature, as big as the previous mentioned mods are you'd need to really prove you're up to their popularity before Valve would make a drastic change for you. So either accept the engine's features before you get underway or be prepared to encounter the fact you can't do certain things without a lot of work, if not at all. The Tools Capabilities I think is what Jed was really getting at, I don't mean like adding features to hammer and stuff but specifically allowing the chance for modders to by pass say model exporting to smd and just use a common format. The tool would need to have the importer and converter written but I personally think that approaching Valve with a specific and industry accepted intermediate format might be a good cause. Especially if it makes life easier for getting the raw assets into a format that the tool can then use. With the availability of tools, I mean those asking that they be open source. Specifically referring to a comment about hammer, look at Worldcraft and BSP ( Yahn's editor iirc ) they were originally personal projects. So you could take a leaf and have a bash at your own editor and open source it, you never know might turn out to be a better designed tool. However just having the source code to hammer, I doubt would be of any benefit, you'd have dozens of versions of the tool floating around and do you really think you could add something useful to it? It may have bugs but if you advocate open source then why not take the initiative and lead by example? The last one, has been brought up in regards to wrapping a tool with a UI or removing the need for QC files. With this I think the issue is balancing the technical knowledge and the capabilities of a tool. However I feel it again falls back to a situation where Valve are happy to use it the way it is, they understand it and can get any of their tools to do what they need. It's the new, non technical, or perhaps slightly lazy people who would need that more complex aspects automated for them. I'd refer this back to Hammer, the early days of mapping could often mean rooting around in a hex or text editor and as things progressed and art started needing the technical requirements to be simplified you found map editors hiding away the old formats. Worldcraft and Hammer essentially sit between the user and the BSP, VIS, RAD etc.. compilers. The format they accept might be, at this stage, more heavily tied into hammer but it's still a front end for those. Again perhaps Worldcraft was a special case with Valve gobbling it up, HLMV too, but I think if the community is adamant enough about simplifying and unifying the tool chain then perhaps a bit of proactive development could lead the way or at least prove to Valve that everyone is serious about rethinking the way we interact with the SDK. Ok, sorry bit of a ramble but mainly what I wanted to share was that specific things like adding FBX to the formats studiomdl can accept would be good ventures as they are specific and have an immediately obvious reason. The other stuff like creating a unified system might be something that is best approached with good old community spirit. If you're serious enough about wanting to use the engine but can genuinely improve the way users develop for it then get organized and see if it's a viable thing to tackle. Even if it's just to prove you were right. I know the later is a bit of a cop out but Jed, Nem and NS2 (prior to dropping Source ) are examples of those who have gone out of their way to do so with tools and Garrys mod is a prime example of taking what is available game code wise and adding the extensions (Specifically scriptint) you want. Plus it beats just falling back to the Valve Needs to Support Mods and Valve do whats best for Valve games and mods need to deal with it arguments that go no where. On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 11:17 PM, Ben Mears benmea...@gmail.com wrote: As a 3D modeller, animator, and mapper, (and not a coder) I agree with what Jed said 100%. Jed, can you please just go work for Valve? great, thanks! On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 12:23 PM, Jed j...@wunderboy.org
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
I'm not claiming to agree or disagree, but I'd like to mention that using proper spelling and grammar would help people take you seriously. Iam disapointed beleive displacment isnt alogothim differnt fundemenal woulod jsut Id dont. It's just difficult to believe that you have a job as a game developer when you type that way. -Kohan Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 22:51:26 +0200 From: adamjjdono...@gmail.com To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine After being on this list for years Iam slightly disapointed that it has not been taken further..mainly Iam talking about the tools artists get to use to create the worlds and actually cant beleive that a modern computer game developer still works with it as its rather limited in environment design..take for example the displacment system..there isnt even lod alogothim for it which makes it so limited..seeing as I work for a game developer and know that its not easy to manage differnt projects and content..I still think some rethinking of fundemenal aspects of the engine woulod be a great idea about now..perhaps even jsut to give people like me some hope that the engine will slowly migrate into something more modern..Id expect some flaming and spam to follow this post like how their are other engines to use and that i dont have to use source engine..that being said..i kinda care about seeing progress. greetz nava ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders _ NEW mobile Hotmail. Optimized for YOUR phone. Click here. http://windowslive.com/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_MB_new_hotmail_072009 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Displacements don't need an LOD algorithm, displacements aren't used for huge, very precise landscapes. It's just a low-resolution triangle strip :| Thanks, - Saul. 2009/7/23 Kohan Venets idr...@hotmail.com I'm not claiming to agree or disagree, but I'd like to mention that using proper spelling and grammar would help people take you seriously. Iam disapointed beleive displacment isnt alogothim differnt fundemenal woulod jsut Id dont. It's just difficult to believe that you have a job as a game developer when you type that way. -Kohan Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 22:51:26 +0200 From: adamjjdono...@gmail.com To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine After being on this list for years Iam slightly disapointed that it has not been taken further..mainly Iam talking about the tools artists get to use to create the worlds and actually cant beleive that a modern computer game developer still works with it as its rather limited in environment design..take for example the displacment system..there isnt even lod alogothim for it which makes it so limited..seeing as I work for a game developer and know that its not easy to manage differnt projects and content..I still think some rethinking of fundemenal aspects of the engine woulod be a great idea about now..perhaps even jsut to give people like me some hope that the engine will slowly migrate into something more modern..Id expect some flaming and spam to follow this post like how their are other engines to use and that i dont have to use source engine..that being said..i kinda care about seeing progress. greetz nava ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders _ NEW mobile Hotmail. Optimized for YOUR phone. Click here. http://windowslive.com/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_MB_new_hotmail_072009 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Hes an old schooler it does not matter back on topic Yes, there is much room for improvement in many areas. Source Engine is the only modern engine to still be using BSP. However, i think the tools like hammer should be open source so people like us can improve them since valve lacks the manpower to do so. On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Kohan Venets idr...@hotmail.com wrote: I'm not claiming to agree or disagree, but I'd like to mention that using proper spelling and grammar would help people take you seriously. Iam disapointed beleive displacment isnt alogothim differnt fundemenal woulod jsut Id dont. It's just difficult to believe that you have a job as a game developer when you type that way. -Kohan Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 22:51:26 +0200 From: adamjjdono...@gmail.com To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine After being on this list for years Iam slightly disapointed that it has not been taken further..mainly Iam talking about the tools artists get to use to create the worlds and actually cant beleive that a modern computer game developer still works with it as its rather limited in environment design..take for example the displacment system..there isnt even lod alogothim for it which makes it so limited..seeing as I work for a game developer and know that its not easy to manage differnt projects and content..I still think some rethinking of fundemenal aspects of the engine woulod be a great idea about now..perhaps even jsut to give people like me some hope that the engine will slowly migrate into something more modern..Id expect some flaming and spam to follow this post like how their are other engines to use and that i dont have to use source engine..that being said..i kinda care about seeing progress. greetz nava ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders _ NEW mobile Hotmail. Optimized for YOUR phone. Click here. http://windowslive.com/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_MB_new_hotmail_072009 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
CoD4's prefab based maps work for people to create levels fairly easily but I dont see the same creative community that exists in css, tf2 and l4d. BSP works, I'm happy with it, I get a lot of control with it. You choose the engine for the game, you want to make a crysis scale game then use the crytek engine. If something like TF2 is in mind then use source 2007. The misconception that source is the same engine it was 5 years ago bugs me. Valve have updated it loads and brought graphics, physics and gameplay to the next generation. TBH valve are a generation ahead of everyone else in terms of gameplay. Last time I checked insurgency looked pretty damn nice, at a par with cod4 IMO. 2009/7/23 Joel R. joelru...@gmail.com: Hes an old schooler it does not matter back on topic Yes, there is much room for improvement in many areas. Source Engine is the only modern engine to still be using BSP. However, i think the tools like hammer should be open source so people like us can improve them since valve lacks the manpower to do so. On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Kohan Venets idr...@hotmail.com wrote: I'm not claiming to agree or disagree, but I'd like to mention that using proper spelling and grammar would help people take you seriously. Iam disapointed beleive displacment isnt alogothim differnt fundemenal woulod jsut Id dont. It's just difficult to believe that you have a job as a game developer when you type that way. -Kohan Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 22:51:26 +0200 From: adamjjdono...@gmail.com To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine After being on this list for years Iam slightly disapointed that it has not been taken further..mainly Iam talking about the tools artists get to use to create the worlds and actually cant beleive that a modern computer game developer still works with it as its rather limited in environment design..take for example the displacment system..there isnt even lod alogothim for it which makes it so limited..seeing as I work for a game developer and know that its not easy to manage differnt projects and content..I still think some rethinking of fundemenal aspects of the engine woulod be a great idea about now..perhaps even jsut to give people like me some hope that the engine will slowly migrate into something more modern..Id expect some flaming and spam to follow this post like how their are other engines to use and that i dont have to use source engine..that being said..i kinda care about seeing progress. greetz nava ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders _ NEW mobile Hotmail. Optimized for YOUR phone. Click here. http://windowslive.com/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_MB_new_hotmail_072009 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Kohan, if you'd seen the grammar in e-mail I've received from people with an @valvesoftware.com email address you wouldn't disbelieve that Adam may actually have a game industry job. That said, I agree with the sentiment that Valve is probably the last game company pushing a BSP based engine? After 3 years of building a mod I'm starting to believe that Source is just the HL1 engine with a bunch of third-party API's plugged in. Certainly they have come up with some very cool stuff but over Goldsrc, Source just doesn't feel very next-gen to me. I remember when CS:S first came out and everyone was was well you should be able to do XXX/YYY with the source engine. Ultimately all the mods big plans fell flat and it feels, with a few exceptions, the same stuff as HL1 but with better graphics. My biggest beef with Source as a next-gen engine is their tool set. I *really* think Valve have taken a backwards step with their SDK and tool chain and make modding exponentially difficult for those that want to do it. When I look at other engines everything is so much more refined and documented and the tools are much more polished that Valve. Case in point: - Why are we still using a command line model compiler? The main modder demographic is probably 15 - 20 somethings of which most aren't pre-windows 95 and don't know how to use a CLI. If I can write a bloody GUI to StudioMDL, why can't Valve? - Why the hell are we still using SMD? Take a continuous mesh model, break it into triangles and re-compile it into tri-strips at compile. Hint Valve - either adapt your SMD/OBJ MRM hybrid format or just use DAE/FBX for God's sake. You'll find you don't need us to make SMD support for every 3D app out there if you adopt a cross application 3D format. I could go on, but I personally think that Valve need to seriously polish their tool set if they expect us, as modders, and maybe even studios to adopt their engine. Content creation shouldn't be a fight. And I say this knowing full well that some people at Valve prefer my tools over their own... - J 2009/7/23 Kohan Venets idr...@hotmail.com: I'm not claiming to agree or disagree, but I'd like to mention that using proper spelling and grammar would help people take you seriously. Iam disapointed beleive displacment isnt alogothim differnt fundemenal woulod jsut Id dont. It's just difficult to believe that you have a job as a game developer when you type that way. -Kohan Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 22:51:26 +0200 From: adamjjdono...@gmail.com To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine After being on this list for years Iam slightly disapointed that it has not been taken further..mainly Iam talking about the tools artists get to use to create the worlds and actually cant beleive that a modern computer game developer still works with it as its rather limited in environment design..take for example the displacment system..there isnt even lod alogothim for it which makes it so limited..seeing as I work for a game developer and know that its not easy to manage differnt projects and content..I still think some rethinking of fundemenal aspects of the engine woulod be a great idea about now..perhaps even jsut to give people like me some hope that the engine will slowly migrate into something more modern..Id expect some flaming and spam to follow this post like how their are other engines to use and that i dont have to use source engine..that being said..i kinda care about seeing progress. greetz nava ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders _ NEW mobile Hotmail. Optimized for YOUR phone. Click here. http://windowslive.com/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_MB_new_hotmail_072009 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
I agree that gameplay options are great in hammer..its more some of the oldschool stuff in hammer that could use an update..as for the spelling comments I dont care Im employed as an artist not a public relations officer ot spelling bee judge. nava ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
I like the Source engine and am pretty happy with it in it's current state. However, what Jed said, - Why the hell are we still using SMD? Take a continuous mesh model, break it into triangles and re-compile it into tri-strips at compile. Hint Valve - either adapt your SMD/OBJ MRM hybrid format or just use DAE/FBX for God's sake. You'll find you don't need us to make SMD support for every 3D app out there if you adopt a cross application 3D format. makes perfect sense and should really be looked into for a future Source engine update. I don't where we would be without Jed's plugins (well, I use XSI mostly so I would probably be ok but what about the many people who use Max and Maya?) On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Jed j...@wunderboy.org wrote: Kohan, if you'd seen the grammar in e-mail I've received from people with an @valvesoftware.com email address you wouldn't disbelieve that Adam may actually have a game industry job. That said, I agree with the sentiment that Valve is probably the last game company pushing a BSP based engine? After 3 years of building a mod I'm starting to believe that Source is just the HL1 engine with a bunch of third-party API's plugged in. Certainly they have come up with some very cool stuff but over Goldsrc, Source just doesn't feel very next-gen to me. I remember when CS:S first came out and everyone was was well you should be able to do XXX/YYY with the source engine. Ultimately all the mods big plans fell flat and it feels, with a few exceptions, the same stuff as HL1 but with better graphics. My biggest beef with Source as a next-gen engine is their tool set. I *really* think Valve have taken a backwards step with their SDK and tool chain and make modding exponentially difficult for those that want to do it. When I look at other engines everything is so much more refined and documented and the tools are much more polished that Valve. Case in point: - Why are we still using a command line model compiler? The main modder demographic is probably 15 - 20 somethings of which most aren't pre-windows 95 and don't know how to use a CLI. If I can write a bloody GUI to StudioMDL, why can't Valve? - Why the hell are we still using SMD? Take a continuous mesh model, break it into triangles and re-compile it into tri-strips at compile. Hint Valve - either adapt your SMD/OBJ MRM hybrid format or just use DAE/FBX for God's sake. You'll find you don't need us to make SMD support for every 3D app out there if you adopt a cross application 3D format. I could go on, but I personally think that Valve need to seriously polish their tool set if they expect us, as modders, and maybe even studios to adopt their engine. Content creation shouldn't be a fight. And I say this knowing full well that some people at Valve prefer my tools over their own... - J 2009/7/23 Kohan Venets idr...@hotmail.com: I'm not claiming to agree or disagree, but I'd like to mention that using proper spelling and grammar would help people take you seriously. Iam disapointed beleive displacment isnt alogothim differnt fundemenal woulod jsut Id dont. It's just difficult to believe that you have a job as a game developer when you type that way. -Kohan Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 22:51:26 +0200 From: adamjjdono...@gmail.com To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine After being on this list for years Iam slightly disapointed that it has not been taken further..mainly Iam talking about the tools artists get to use to create the worlds and actually cant beleive that a modern computer game developer still works with it as its rather limited in environment design..take for example the displacment system..there isnt even lod alogothim for it which makes it so limited..seeing as I work for a game developer and know that its not easy to manage differnt projects and content..I still think some rethinking of fundemenal aspects of the engine woulod be a great idea about now..perhaps even jsut to give people like me some hope that the engine will slowly migrate into something more modern..Id expect some flaming and spam to follow this post like how their are other engines to use and that i dont have to use source engine..that being said..i kinda care about seeing progress. greetz nava ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders _ NEW mobile Hotmail. Optimized for YOUR phone. Click here. http://windowslive.com/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_MB_new_hotmail_072009 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
If I can write a bloody GUI to StudioMDL, why can't Valve? Because you already wrote it. Why would they need to duplicate your work? Why pay paid developers to do something the modding community does for free? ;) I do wish Hammer was open-source, or atleast had a plugin-system (Maybe written in Lua or C++ or such), so that even if Valve didn't take the time to make their tools more user-friendly, the users could. What Source lacks in high-end graphics, and ultra precise physics and so on, I do think that they make up for it in Gameplay. You still see huge gaming communities playing CSS, CS, DOD:S, TF2, L4D, etc. These games are years old, yet people still play them daily. And yeah, content creation is way too much of a fight. Un-descriptive errors, illogical errors, etc. While the CLI doesn't bother me, having learned to use it, I could see how it could be an issue for a new user. (Keep in mind I'm only 16) And alot of the stuff isn't documented which irks me. Also not having the model sources for more complex things really annoys me, because it's left the modders to try and figure it out on their own. Things like MDLDecompiler aren't a terrible help with the new stuff because it isn't even put into the qcs or models, so we have NO clue if some of the commands even exist. On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 2:45 PM, Adam Donovan adamjjdono...@gmail.comwrote: I agree that gameplay options are great in hammer..its more some of the oldschool stuff in hammer that could use an update..as for the spelling comments I dont care Im employed as an artist not a public relations officer ot spelling bee judge. nava ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Message-ID: 61584190907231351w57945d08u7d1ae81a0575...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 After being on this list for years Iam slightly disapointed that it has not been taken further..mainly Iam talking about the tools artists get to use to create the worlds and actually cant beleive that a modern computer game developer still works with it as its rather limited in environment design..take for example the displacment system..there isnt even lod alogothim for it which makes it so limited..seeing as I work for a game developer and know that its not easy to manage differnt projects and content..I still think some rethinking of fundemenal aspects of the engine woulod be a great idea about now..perhaps even jsut to give people like me some hope that the engine will slowly migrate into something more modern..Id expect some flaming and spam to follow this post like how their are other engines to use and that i dont have to use source engine..that being said..i kinda care about seeing progress. greetz nava -- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 14:09:40 -0700 From: Kohan Venets idr...@hotmail.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine To: hlcoders hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Message-ID: col120-w112e8cc9129ea33201dee697...@phx.gbl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 I'm not claiming to agree or disagree, but I'd like to mention that using proper spelling and grammar would help people take you seriously. Iam disapointed beleive displacment isnt alogothim differnt fundemenal woulod jsut Id dont. It's just difficult to believe that you have a job as a game developer when you type that way. -Kohan Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 22:51:26 +0200 From: adamjjdono...@gmail.com To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine After being on this list for years Iam slightly disapointed that it has not been taken further..mainly Iam talking about the tools artists get to use to create the worlds and actually cant beleive that a modern computer game developer still works with it as its rather limited in environment design..take for example the displacment system..there isnt even lod alogothim for it which makes it so limited..seeing as I work for a game developer and know that its not easy to manage differnt projects and content..I still think some rethinking of fundemenal aspects of the engine woulod be a great idea about now..perhaps even jsut to give people like me some hope that the engine will slowly migrate into something more modern..Id expect some flaming and spam to follow this post like how their are other engines to use and that i dont have to use source engine..that being said..i kinda care about seeing progress. greetz nava ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders _ NEW mobile Hotmail. Optimized for YOUR phone. Click here. http://windowslive.com/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_MB_new_hotmail_072009 -- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 22:14:55 +0100 From: Saul Rennison saul.renni...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Message-ID: 7305d8560907231414p2fe7e37bocdf5b6560b9a4...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Displacements don't need an LOD algorithm, displacements aren't used for huge, very precise landscapes. It's just a low-resolution triangle strip :| Thanks, - Saul. 2009/7/23 Kohan Venets idr...@hotmail.com I'm not claiming to agree or disagree, but I'd like to mention that using proper spelling and grammar would help people take you seriously. Iam disapointed beleive displacment isnt alogothim differnt fundemenal woulod jsut Id dont. It's just difficult to believe that you have a job as a game developer when you type that way. -Kohan Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 22:51:26 +0200 From: adamjjdono...@gmail.com To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine After being on this list for years Iam slightly disapointed that it has not been taken further..mainly Iam talking about the tools artists get to use to create the worlds and actually cant beleive that a modern computer game developer still works with it as its rather limited in environment design..take for example the displacment system..there isnt even lod alogothim for it which makes it so limited..seeing as I work for a game developer and know that its not easy to manage differnt projects and content
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
I think Source works well for the room and corridor kind of engine but if you want anything more outdoors you need to look at another engine really. Of course, I often find myself sitting on the fence - I *am* a Valve fanboy at heart but some stuff just makes me groan. The one thing I don't like is that since Source a lot of stock tools have been locked down - source not released citing license issues, etc. Case in point - I hear the source to StudioMDL can't be released due to the Perforce integration code. I would rather see the StudioMDL code *minus* the Perforce libs/C++ bits because the rest in itself is USEFUL to use as tool developers. Likewise HLMV - it's based on HLMV 1.22 and uses the most ancient GUI API on the planet. Release us the source/API to the 3D window rendered! I did actually start making a JHLMV for Source back when HL2 came out but the fact that Valve update HLMV which broke it, and then took forever to update/remove the source from the SDK killed that project. I'm sorry but I just *do not get* the Valve toolset. It may work well for you guys to have some hacky-held-together-with-duct-tape tools in house but if your selling an engine license I can't believe your crappy toolset is actually helping you sell engine licenses. I've lost count of how many Source engine licensee's have asked me (in respect of my software license) for permission to use my tools for their game production. Seriously Valve - get serious about your tool set. Great engine, but it feels like your content creation pipeline tools are from the stoneage. As yourself this - why do people like myself and Nem make the tools you do? Maybe it's because your own are so deficient... and I *know* your using some of my stuff in-house. - Jed 2009/7/23 Matt Hoffman lord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com: If I can write a bloody GUI to StudioMDL, why can't Valve? Because you already wrote it. Why would they need to duplicate your work? Why pay paid developers to do something the modding community does for free? ;) I do wish Hammer was open-source, or atleast had a plugin-system (Maybe written in Lua or C++ or such), so that even if Valve didn't take the time to make their tools more user-friendly, the users could. What Source lacks in high-end graphics, and ultra precise physics and so on, I do think that they make up for it in Gameplay. You still see huge gaming communities playing CSS, CS, DOD:S, TF2, L4D, etc. These games are years old, yet people still play them daily. And yeah, content creation is way too much of a fight. Un-descriptive errors, illogical errors, etc. While the CLI doesn't bother me, having learned to use it, I could see how it could be an issue for a new user. (Keep in mind I'm only 16) And alot of the stuff isn't documented which irks me. Also not having the model sources for more complex things really annoys me, because it's left the modders to try and figure it out on their own. Things like MDLDecompiler aren't a terrible help with the new stuff because it isn't even put into the qcs or models, so we have NO clue if some of the commands even exist. On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 2:45 PM, Adam Donovan adamjjdono...@gmail.comwrote: I agree that gameplay options are great in hammer..its more some of the oldschool stuff in hammer that could use an update..as for the spelling comments I dont care Im employed as an artist not a public relations officer ot spelling bee judge. nava ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
And I apologise for my spelling mistakes. I'm stuck in a hotel on the other side of the world on a netbook with a keyboard too small for my fingers :) 2009/7/24 Jed j...@wunderboy.org: I think Source works well for the room and corridor kind of engine but if you want anything more outdoors you need to look at another engine really. Of course, I often find myself sitting on the fence - I *am* a Valve fanboy at heart but some stuff just makes me groan. The one thing I don't like is that since Source a lot of stock tools have been locked down - source not released citing license issues, etc. Case in point - I hear the source to StudioMDL can't be released due to the Perforce integration code. I would rather see the StudioMDL code *minus* the Perforce libs/C++ bits because the rest in itself is USEFUL to use as tool developers. Likewise HLMV - it's based on HLMV 1.22 and uses the most ancient GUI API on the planet. Release us the source/API to the 3D window rendered! I did actually start making a JHLMV for Source back when HL2 came out but the fact that Valve update HLMV which broke it, and then took forever to update/remove the source from the SDK killed that project. I'm sorry but I just *do not get* the Valve toolset. It may work well for you guys to have some hacky-held-together-with-duct-tape tools in house but if your selling an engine license I can't believe your crappy toolset is actually helping you sell engine licenses. I've lost count of how many Source engine licensee's have asked me (in respect of my software license) for permission to use my tools for their game production. Seriously Valve - get serious about your tool set. Great engine, but it feels like your content creation pipeline tools are from the stoneage. As yourself this - why do people like myself and Nem make the tools you do? Maybe it's because your own are so deficient... and I *know* your using some of my stuff in-house. - Jed 2009/7/23 Matt Hoffman lord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com: If I can write a bloody GUI to StudioMDL, why can't Valve? Because you already wrote it. Why would they need to duplicate your work? Why pay paid developers to do something the modding community does for free? ;) I do wish Hammer was open-source, or atleast had a plugin-system (Maybe written in Lua or C++ or such), so that even if Valve didn't take the time to make their tools more user-friendly, the users could. What Source lacks in high-end graphics, and ultra precise physics and so on, I do think that they make up for it in Gameplay. You still see huge gaming communities playing CSS, CS, DOD:S, TF2, L4D, etc. These games are years old, yet people still play them daily. And yeah, content creation is way too much of a fight. Un-descriptive errors, illogical errors, etc. While the CLI doesn't bother me, having learned to use it, I could see how it could be an issue for a new user. (Keep in mind I'm only 16) And alot of the stuff isn't documented which irks me. Also not having the model sources for more complex things really annoys me, because it's left the modders to try and figure it out on their own. Things like MDLDecompiler aren't a terrible help with the new stuff because it isn't even put into the qcs or models, so we have NO clue if some of the commands even exist. On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 2:45 PM, Adam Donovan adamjjdono...@gmail.comwrote: I agree that gameplay options are great in hammer..its more some of the oldschool stuff in hammer that could use an update..as for the spelling comments I dont care Im employed as an artist not a public relations officer ot spelling bee judge. nava ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Valve's engine and toolset are perfect for what Valve does with it, and Valve has a lot of tools that they don't distribute to the community that make what they do easier. The limitations that exist are only because the engine is focused for doing one thing and doing it well, that being the kind of thing that Valve does with their games. Personally I think that despite the limitations, the engine is fantastic and can be made to do a lot of stuff, just look at GMod. It's a bit rough using a command line model compiler and SMD and whatnot, but nobody's holding your hand, you're free to use another toolset if you don't like what Valve has offered. Or, pay for an engine license. Or, wait for whatever Valve is cooking up in their pipeline next for future versions of Source. So quit whining! -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
I *think* the reason why Valve still uses command line tools is the fact that you can easily integrate it into the Windows context menus.I was working on a decompiler, but simply stopped my work on it, due to the SMD format, which is quite lame to work with. Oh, and reloading materials ingame IS possible. Check out mat_reloadallmaterials - reload all materials mat_reloadmaterial - reloads specified material mat_reloadtexture - reload all textures /ScarT ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Agreed - I think that despite the limitations, the engine is fantastic and can be made to do a lot of stuff, just look at GMod. As well as other great mods that are outside of Valve's normal game type. For example, Eternal Silence is a Source engine mod that contains outer space flying and dogfighting! I haven't really used any of the other engines but would it be possible to create a flying game in a different engine that is meant for FPS? Disagreed - Or, pay for an engine license. Or, wait for whatever Valve is cooking up in their pipeline next for future versions of Source. Isn't a license like 300,000$ or something? What individual can afford that? And I don't think waiting for Valve is really ever a good solution. On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Jorge Rodriguez bs.v...@gmail.com wrote: Valve's engine and toolset are perfect for what Valve does with it, and Valve has a lot of tools that they don't distribute to the community that make what they do easier. The limitations that exist are only because the engine is focused for doing one thing and doing it well, that being the kind of thing that Valve does with their games. Personally I think that despite the limitations, the engine is fantastic and can be made to do a lot of stuff, just look at GMod. It's a bit rough using a command line model compiler and SMD and whatnot, but nobody's holding your hand, you're free to use another toolset if you don't like what Valve has offered. Or, pay for an engine license. Or, wait for whatever Valve is cooking up in their pipeline next for future versions of Source. So quit whining! -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
ok so I will say this again..I know there are other engines..but I care about this one..so there is no point of telling me which other large outdoor engines there are..i know that..i use them too and they just make me more aware of the state of the tool set we have. I have used source for years..its because I am a fanboy of the engine that I say such things..I mean you only have to listen to Jed to get an idea of the problems...and as for third party api's not being able to redistibute..well other games do it so I dont see why it cant be sorted out for us. And Jorge im not whining..I have nothing to whin about..I acutally get to work with programmers as a tech artist making tool sets for everyone..so I know its alot of work and im not taking for granted that it would also be alot of work for valve..but thats no excuse at all. Everything that Jed has said so far is pretty much spot on.. nava ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
If it's all made nice and modular and supports either dll or python plugins I think it would work great. Nothing there that should be too hard to re-implement. 2009/7/24 Matt Hoffman lord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com: Because... Hell that's a good point. The VMF document format isn't exactly hard to understand. The compile tools are all plugged-in. Only thing you would have issues with (I'd Imagine): Loading from the GCFS quickly, and efficiently. Though I imagine Jed would have a solution there. Displacements could also be an issue. I'd imagine it's possible. On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: 1. Update SDK and make it uber leet as per suggestions. 2. Distribute SDK (not on valvetime please) 3. Studios pay for license 4. More mods become commercially viable (e.g. GMod) 5. ? 6. Profit! But seriously, it can be done. And if hammer is so bad why has the community not started work on an opensource version with python support for plugins. 2009/7/23 Jorge Rodriguez bs.v...@gmail.com: Source engine works just fine for outdoors areas. Did you people forget that half of HL2 and the episodes take place outdoors? Obviously it doesn't scale up to GTA-size large areas, but it can handle some pretty large areas. -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
1. Update SDK and make it uber leet as per suggestions. 2. Distribute SDK (not on valvetime please) 3. Studios pay for license 4. More mods become commercially viable (e.g. GMod) 5. ? 6. Profit! But seriously, it can be done. And if hammer is so bad why has the community not started work on an opensource version with python support for plugins. 2009/7/23 Jorge Rodriguez bs.v...@gmail.com: Source engine works just fine for outdoors areas. Did you people forget that half of HL2 and the episodes take place outdoors? Obviously it doesn't scale up to GTA-size large areas, but it can handle some pretty large areas. -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
In Eternal Silence there are vast outdoor, outer space environments that take a while to travel across. And its all in the Source engine. man I love that mod. On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Jorge Rodriguez bs.v...@gmail.com wrote: Source engine works just fine for outdoors areas. Did you people forget that half of HL2 and the episodes take place outdoors? Obviously it doesn't scale up to GTA-size large areas, but it can handle some pretty large areas. -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Source engine works just fine for outdoors areas. Did you people forget that half of HL2 and the episodes take place outdoors? Obviously it doesn't scale up to GTA-size large areas, but it can handle some pretty large areas. -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
I think you can use Sources/Valves filesystem for loading stuff in GCF/VPKs, it's in a stand-alone dll. On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Matt Hoffman lord.matt.hoff...@gmail.comwrote: Because... Hell that's a good point. The VMF document format isn't exactly hard to understand. The compile tools are all plugged-in. Only thing you would have issues with (I'd Imagine): Loading from the GCFS quickly, and efficiently. Though I imagine Jed would have a solution there. Displacements could also be an issue. I'd imagine it's possible. On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: 1. Update SDK and make it uber leet as per suggestions. 2. Distribute SDK (not on valvetime please) 3. Studios pay for license 4. More mods become commercially viable (e.g. GMod) 5. ? 6. Profit! But seriously, it can be done. And if hammer is so bad why has the community not started work on an opensource version with python support for plugins. 2009/7/23 Jorge Rodriguez bs.v...@gmail.com: Source engine works just fine for outdoors areas. Did you people forget that half of HL2 and the episodes take place outdoors? Obviously it doesn't scale up to GTA-size large areas, but it can handle some pretty large areas. -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Hell I'm on Summer Holidays, I'll give this a go, although it does mean I'd have to do texture support which I'm not so great at. But GCF support is possible via Nemesis' HLlib. All replies in this topic bring up good points in the Source Engine, heres my 2 pence: I don't agree with the fact Source doesn't have good physics. Source should move to DAE. StudioMDL and HLMV should be open-source, leave P4 integration in, we only need the code / snippets from it. There's probably more but I can't be bothered replying. Thanks, -Saul. On 24 Jul 2009, at 00:17, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: If it's all made nice and modular and supports either dll or python plugins I think it would work great. Nothing there that should be too hard to re-implement. 2009/7/24 Matt Hoffman lord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com: Because... Hell that's a good point. The VMF document format isn't exactly hard to understand. The compile tools are all plugged-in. Only thing you would have issues with (I'd Imagine): Loading from the GCFS quickly, and efficiently. Though I imagine Jed would have a solution there. Displacements could also be an issue. I'd imagine it's possible. On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: 1. Update SDK and make it uber leet as per suggestions. 2. Distribute SDK (not on valvetime please) 3. Studios pay for license 4. More mods become commercially viable (e.g. GMod) 5. ? 6. Profit! But seriously, it can be done. And if hammer is so bad why has the community not started work on an opensource version with python support for plugins. 2009/7/23 Jorge Rodriguez bs.v...@gmail.com: Source engine works just fine for outdoors areas. Did you people forget that half of HL2 and the episodes take place outdoors? Obviously it doesn't scale up to GTA-size large areas, but it can handle some pretty large areas. -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Maybe Valve should then remember they wouldn't have Team Fortress and Counter-Strike without mods. Thanks, -Saul. On 24 Jul 2009, at 01:28, Bob Somers magicbob...@gmail.com wrote: With all due respect to you guys, I think you're forgetting that ultimately Valve is not in the mod-support business. They're in the business of making their own games, and the success of their titles shows how well they do it. Their tools are designed for the way the workflow happens at Valve, not at your house. They're providing their tools to you as a courtesy. Now, if they want to take suggestions from the community that's great, but ultimately you're getting all their tools for free so it's really too bad if they don't work they way you want them to. I'm not well versed in the model compilation process for Source, but there's one thing a command line interface has over a GUI... scriptability. In a big software company, the rule of thumb is that anything that can be automated should be automated. You can't script a GUI (at least, not very easily at all). --Bob On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Saul Rennisonsaul.renni...@gmail.com wrote: Hell I'm on Summer Holidays, I'll give this a go, although it does mean I'd have to do texture support which I'm not so great at. But GCF support is possible via Nemesis' HLlib. All replies in this topic bring up good points in the Source Engine, heres my 2 pence: I don't agree with the fact Source doesn't have good physics. Source should move to DAE. StudioMDL and HLMV should be open-source, leave P4 integration in, we only need the code / snippets from it. There's probably more but I can't be bothered replying. Thanks, -Saul. On 24 Jul 2009, at 00:17, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: If it's all made nice and modular and supports either dll or python plugins I think it would work great. Nothing there that should be too hard to re-implement. 2009/7/24 Matt Hoffman lord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com: Because... Hell that's a good point. The VMF document format isn't exactly hard to understand. The compile tools are all plugged-in. Only thing you would have issues with (I'd Imagine): Loading from the GCFS quickly, and efficiently. Though I imagine Jed would have a solution there. Displacements could also be an issue. I'd imagine it's possible. On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: 1. Update SDK and make it uber leet as per suggestions. 2. Distribute SDK (not on valvetime please) 3. Studios pay for license 4. More mods become commercially viable (e.g. GMod) 5. ? 6. Profit! But seriously, it can be done. And if hammer is so bad why has the community not started work on an opensource version with python support for plugins. 2009/7/23 Jorge Rodriguez bs.v...@gmail.com: Source engine works just fine for outdoors areas. Did you people forget that half of HL2 and the episodes take place outdoors? Obviously it doesn't scale up to GTA-size large areas, but it can handle some pretty large areas. -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
With all due respect to you guys, I think you're forgetting that ultimately Valve is not in the mod-support business. They're in the business of making their own games, and the success of their titles shows how well they do it. Their tools are designed for the way the workflow happens at Valve, not at your house. They're providing their tools to you as a courtesy. Now, if they want to take suggestions from the community that's great, but ultimately you're getting all their tools for free so it's really too bad if they don't work they way you want them to. I'm not well versed in the model compilation process for Source, but there's one thing a command line interface has over a GUI... scriptability. In a big software company, the rule of thumb is that anything that can be automated should be automated. You can't script a GUI (at least, not very easily at all). --Bob On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Saul Rennisonsaul.renni...@gmail.com wrote: Hell I'm on Summer Holidays, I'll give this a go, although it does mean I'd have to do texture support which I'm not so great at. But GCF support is possible via Nemesis' HLlib. All replies in this topic bring up good points in the Source Engine, heres my 2 pence: I don't agree with the fact Source doesn't have good physics. Source should move to DAE. StudioMDL and HLMV should be open-source, leave P4 integration in, we only need the code / snippets from it. There's probably more but I can't be bothered replying. Thanks, -Saul. On 24 Jul 2009, at 00:17, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: If it's all made nice and modular and supports either dll or python plugins I think it would work great. Nothing there that should be too hard to re-implement. 2009/7/24 Matt Hoffman lord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com: Because... Hell that's a good point. The VMF document format isn't exactly hard to understand. The compile tools are all plugged-in. Only thing you would have issues with (I'd Imagine): Loading from the GCFS quickly, and efficiently. Though I imagine Jed would have a solution there. Displacements could also be an issue. I'd imagine it's possible. On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: 1. Update SDK and make it uber leet as per suggestions. 2. Distribute SDK (not on valvetime please) 3. Studios pay for license 4. More mods become commercially viable (e.g. GMod) 5. ? 6. Profit! But seriously, it can be done. And if hammer is so bad why has the community not started work on an opensource version with python support for plugins. 2009/7/23 Jorge Rodriguez bs.v...@gmail.com: Source engine works just fine for outdoors areas. Did you people forget that half of HL2 and the episodes take place outdoors? Obviously it doesn't scale up to GTA-size large areas, but it can handle some pretty large areas. -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
If a soup kitchen was giving you spoiled soup, would you take it? Being that I'm a paying customer of Valve, in that I bought access to the SDK, I'm not a beggar, so I will be a chooser. On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 20:49, Paul Peloski paulpelo...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe they do remember that, and think, if Counter-Strike and Team Fortress were made with our SDK, we must be doing a pretty good job. Paul On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 6:39 PM, Saul Rennison saul.renni...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe Valve should then remember they wouldn't have Team Fortress and Counter-Strike without mods. Thanks, -Saul. On 24 Jul 2009, at 01:28, Bob Somers magicbob...@gmail.com wrote: With all due respect to you guys, I think you're forgetting that ultimately Valve is not in the mod-support business. They're in the business of making their own games, and the success of their titles shows how well they do it. Their tools are designed for the way the workflow happens at Valve, not at your house. They're providing their tools to you as a courtesy. Now, if they want to take suggestions from the community that's great, but ultimately you're getting all their tools for free so it's really too bad if they don't work they way you want them to. I'm not well versed in the model compilation process for Source, but there's one thing a command line interface has over a GUI... scriptability. In a big software company, the rule of thumb is that anything that can be automated should be automated. You can't script a GUI (at least, not very easily at all). --Bob On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Saul Rennisonsaul.renni...@gmail.com wrote: Hell I'm on Summer Holidays, I'll give this a go, although it does mean I'd have to do texture support which I'm not so great at. But GCF support is possible via Nemesis' HLlib. All replies in this topic bring up good points in the Source Engine, heres my 2 pence: I don't agree with the fact Source doesn't have good physics. Source should move to DAE. StudioMDL and HLMV should be open-source, leave P4 integration in, we only need the code / snippets from it. There's probably more but I can't be bothered replying. Thanks, -Saul. On 24 Jul 2009, at 00:17, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: If it's all made nice and modular and supports either dll or python plugins I think it would work great. Nothing there that should be too hard to re-implement. 2009/7/24 Matt Hoffman lord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com: Because... Hell that's a good point. The VMF document format isn't exactly hard to understand. The compile tools are all plugged-in. Only thing you would have issues with (I'd Imagine): Loading from the GCFS quickly, and efficiently. Though I imagine Jed would have a solution there. Displacements could also be an issue. I'd imagine it's possible. On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: 1. Update SDK and make it uber leet as per suggestions. 2. Distribute SDK (not on valvetime please) 3. Studios pay for license 4. More mods become commercially viable (e.g. GMod) 5. ? 6. Profit! But seriously, it can be done. And if hammer is so bad why has the community not started work on an opensource version with python support for plugins. 2009/7/23 Jorge Rodriguez bs.v...@gmail.com: Source engine works just fine for outdoors areas. Did you people forget that half of HL2 and the episodes take place outdoors? Obviously it doesn't scale up to GTA-size large areas, but it can handle some pretty large areas. -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
Agreed, though you must keep in mind there are other ways for them to acquire excellent developers; Portal was just some kids hired out of DigiPen who made a simple game similar to Portal and Valve said Hey you guys are cool, make us millions with it. -Kohan From: saul.renni...@gmail.com To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 01:39:47 +0100 Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine Maybe Valve should then remember they wouldn't have Team Fortress and Counter-Strike without mods. Thanks, -Saul. On 24 Jul 2009, at 01:28, Bob Somers magicbob...@gmail.com wrote: With all due respect to you guys, I think you're forgetting that ultimately Valve is not in the mod-support business. They're in the business of making their own games, and the success of their titles shows how well they do it. Their tools are designed for the way the workflow happens at Valve, not at your house. They're providing their tools to you as a courtesy. Now, if they want to take suggestions from the community that's great, but ultimately you're getting all their tools for free so it's really too bad if they don't work they way you want them to. I'm not well versed in the model compilation process for Source, but there's one thing a command line interface has over a GUI... scriptability. In a big software company, the rule of thumb is that anything that can be automated should be automated. You can't script a GUI (at least, not very easily at all). --Bob On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Saul Rennisonsaul.renni...@gmail.com wrote: Hell I'm on Summer Holidays, I'll give this a go, although it does mean I'd have to do texture support which I'm not so great at. But GCF support is possible via Nemesis' HLlib. All replies in this topic bring up good points in the Source Engine, heres my 2 pence: I don't agree with the fact Source doesn't have good physics. Source should move to DAE. StudioMDL and HLMV should be open-source, leave P4 integration in, we only need the code / snippets from it. There's probably more but I can't be bothered replying. Thanks, -Saul. On 24 Jul 2009, at 00:17, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: If it's all made nice and modular and supports either dll or python plugins I think it would work great. Nothing there that should be too hard to re-implement. 2009/7/24 Matt Hoffman lord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com: Because... Hell that's a good point. The VMF document format isn't exactly hard to understand. The compile tools are all plugged-in. Only thing you would have issues with (I'd Imagine): Loading from the GCFS quickly, and efficiently. Though I imagine Jed would have a solution there. Displacements could also be an issue. I'd imagine it's possible. On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: 1. Update SDK and make it uber leet as per suggestions. 2. Distribute SDK (not on valvetime please) 3. Studios pay for license 4. More mods become commercially viable (e.g. GMod) 5. ? 6. Profit! But seriously, it can be done. And if hammer is so bad why has the community not started work on an opensource version with python support for plugins. 2009/7/23 Jorge Rodriguez bs.v...@gmail.com: Source engine works just fine for outdoors areas. Did you people forget that half of HL2 and the episodes take place outdoors? Obviously it doesn't scale up to GTA-size large areas, but it can handle some pretty large areas. -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
This type of argument always leads to this, one side says it should be better, one side says be happy for what you've got. We are definitely happy, but what is wrong with improvement? Improvement = awesome = more money. The source engine just turned 5 years old, it is not getting any younger, churning out games is getting slower, and other engines make game building much quicker. Anyway you look at it, there is only something positive that comes out of improvement. On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 7:49 PM, Paul Peloski paulpelo...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe they do remember that, and think, if Counter-Strike and Team Fortress were made with our SDK, we must be doing a pretty good job. Paul On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 6:39 PM, Saul Rennison saul.renni...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe Valve should then remember they wouldn't have Team Fortress and Counter-Strike without mods. Thanks, -Saul. On 24 Jul 2009, at 01:28, Bob Somers magicbob...@gmail.com wrote: With all due respect to you guys, I think you're forgetting that ultimately Valve is not in the mod-support business. They're in the business of making their own games, and the success of their titles shows how well they do it. Their tools are designed for the way the workflow happens at Valve, not at your house. They're providing their tools to you as a courtesy. Now, if they want to take suggestions from the community that's great, but ultimately you're getting all their tools for free so it's really too bad if they don't work they way you want them to. I'm not well versed in the model compilation process for Source, but there's one thing a command line interface has over a GUI... scriptability. In a big software company, the rule of thumb is that anything that can be automated should be automated. You can't script a GUI (at least, not very easily at all). --Bob On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Saul Rennisonsaul.renni...@gmail.com wrote: Hell I'm on Summer Holidays, I'll give this a go, although it does mean I'd have to do texture support which I'm not so great at. But GCF support is possible via Nemesis' HLlib. All replies in this topic bring up good points in the Source Engine, heres my 2 pence: I don't agree with the fact Source doesn't have good physics. Source should move to DAE. StudioMDL and HLMV should be open-source, leave P4 integration in, we only need the code / snippets from it. There's probably more but I can't be bothered replying. Thanks, -Saul. On 24 Jul 2009, at 00:17, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: If it's all made nice and modular and supports either dll or python plugins I think it would work great. Nothing there that should be too hard to re-implement. 2009/7/24 Matt Hoffman lord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com: Because... Hell that's a good point. The VMF document format isn't exactly hard to understand. The compile tools are all plugged-in. Only thing you would have issues with (I'd Imagine): Loading from the GCFS quickly, and efficiently. Though I imagine Jed would have a solution there. Displacements could also be an issue. I'd imagine it's possible. On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Harry Jeffery harry101jeff...@googlemail.com wrote: 1. Update SDK and make it uber leet as per suggestions. 2. Distribute SDK (not on valvetime please) 3. Studios pay for license 4. More mods become commercially viable (e.g. GMod) 5. ? 6. Profit! But seriously, it can be done. And if hammer is so bad why has the community not started work on an opensource version with python support for plugins. 2009/7/23 Jorge Rodriguez bs.v...@gmail.com: Source engine works just fine for outdoors areas. Did you people forget that half of HL2 and the episodes take place outdoors? Obviously it doesn't scale up to GTA-size large areas, but it can handle some pretty large areas. -- Jorge Vino Rodriguez ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
The solution is that valve hires Jed as Tools programmer. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
G typos... send = sending without = within --Bob On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 7:53 PM, Bob Somersmagicbob...@gmail.com wrote: There's nothing wrong with improvement, offering suggestions, or send your own improvements. Just be civil about it. I just get really tired of one guy making a perfectly civil suggestion, and then without hours my email box gets flooded with people tossing in their 2 cents and bitching about things like here's why the engine sucks or here's a laundry list of stuff they need to fix. Geez, if you hate it that much go mod on a different platform. Or at least keep your bitching off the list. This is a QA mailing list, not a feel-good Modders Anonymous support group. *steps off soap box* --Bob On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 6:59 PM, Giancarlo Rivasgiaym.m...@gmail.com wrote: The solution is that valve hires Jed as Tools programmer. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
I remember some guy was developing an alternative to Hammer. I don't know what happened with that but it looked promising. On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 7:55 PM, Bob Somers magicbob...@gmail.com wrote: G typos... send = sending without = within --Bob On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 7:53 PM, Bob Somersmagicbob...@gmail.com wrote: There's nothing wrong with improvement, offering suggestions, or send your own improvements. Just be civil about it. I just get really tired of one guy making a perfectly civil suggestion, and then without hours my email box gets flooded with people tossing in their 2 cents and bitching about things like here's why the engine sucks or here's a laundry list of stuff they need to fix. Geez, if you hate it that much go mod on a different platform. Or at least keep your bitching off the list. This is a QA mailing list, not a feel-good Modders Anonymous support group. *steps off soap box* --Bob On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 6:59 PM, Giancarlo Rivasgiaym.m...@gmail.com wrote: The solution is that valve hires Jed as Tools programmer. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- ~Ryan ( skidz ) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
I certainly couldn't complain, where I work we make our level environments entirely in 3DSMAX... :( I imagine that if Valve is like most developers then they are quite adept enough at using their own tools that they don't see a huge need to revamp things into the more agile form that today's engines tool chains are moving towards. Sure there might be some benefit there but they seem to quite suffice as the quality of Valves games attest to. If it ain't broke, why fix it? On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Ryan Sheffer darksk...@gmail.com wrote: I remember some guy was developing an alternative to Hammer. I don't know what happened with that but it looked promising. On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 7:55 PM, Bob Somers magicbob...@gmail.com wrote: G typos... send = sending without = within --Bob On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 7:53 PM, Bob Somersmagicbob...@gmail.com wrote: There's nothing wrong with improvement, offering suggestions, or send your own improvements. Just be civil about it. I just get really tired of one guy making a perfectly civil suggestion, and then without hours my email box gets flooded with people tossing in their 2 cents and bitching about things like here's why the engine sucks or here's a laundry list of stuff they need to fix. Geez, if you hate it that much go mod on a different platform. Or at least keep your bitching off the list. This is a QA mailing list, not a feel-good Modders Anonymous support group. *steps off soap box* --Bob On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 6:59 PM, Giancarlo Rivasgiaym.m...@gmail.com wrote: The solution is that valve hires Jed as Tools programmer. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- ~Ryan ( skidz ) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- Programmer for Resistance and Liberation www.resistanceandliberation.com Programmer for Red Tribe www.redtribe.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
They seem to break stuff fixing other things. On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 10:11 PM, Jonathan Murphy nuclearfri...@gmail.comwrote: I certainly couldn't complain, where I work we make our level environments entirely in 3DSMAX... :( I imagine that if Valve is like most developers then they are quite adept enough at using their own tools that they don't see a huge need to revamp things into the more agile form that today's engines tool chains are moving towards. Sure there might be some benefit there but they seem to quite suffice as the quality of Valves games attest to. If it ain't broke, why fix it? On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Ryan Sheffer darksk...@gmail.com wrote: I remember some guy was developing an alternative to Hammer. I don't know what happened with that but it looked promising. On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 7:55 PM, Bob Somers magicbob...@gmail.com wrote: G typos... send = sending without = within --Bob On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 7:53 PM, Bob Somersmagicbob...@gmail.com wrote: There's nothing wrong with improvement, offering suggestions, or send your own improvements. Just be civil about it. I just get really tired of one guy making a perfectly civil suggestion, and then without hours my email box gets flooded with people tossing in their 2 cents and bitching about things like here's why the engine sucks or here's a laundry list of stuff they need to fix. Geez, if you hate it that much go mod on a different platform. Or at least keep your bitching off the list. This is a QA mailing list, not a feel-good Modders Anonymous support group. *steps off soap box* --Bob On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 6:59 PM, Giancarlo Rivas giaym.m...@gmail.com wrote: The solution is that valve hires Jed as Tools programmer. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- ~Ryan ( skidz ) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- Programmer for Resistance and Liberation www.resistanceandliberation.com Programmer for Red Tribe www.redtribe.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
