Re: [SPAM] Re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
Op dinsdag 29-01-2008 om 11:11 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef willem: Joost van der Sluis wrote: Personally I would rank debugger way higher on my wishlist than packages. That won't work. DDD is a frontend to GDB. And guess where the problem is? The problem is GDB. Can you tell me more about the problems with GDB ? Well, what are you problems with the Lazarus debugger? Those are the problems with GDB. (Almost) Biggest problem is dat is doesn't support pascal-class-style properties, that the DWARF support is limited. That it's not very stable/usefull in Windows/Cygwin envirionments. That it's not available at all at win64. (since there's no gcc for win64) GDB's is most suitable to debug GNU/gcc applications on Unix systems. Pascal and windows are supported, but very limited since most GDB developers don't use those platforms and are not really interested in them. Joost _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [SPAM] Re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
Joost van der Sluis schreef: Can you tell me more about the problems with GDB ? That it's not available at all at win64. (since there's no gcc for win64) That is not the case anymore. Try ftp://ftp.hu.freepascal.org/pub/lazarus/Lazarus-0.9.25-fpc-2.2.1-20080130-win64.exe Vincent _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [SPAM] Re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
Vincent, With this you got integrated debugger working at Win64 Lazarus? -- Att, Wanderlan Santos dos Anjos On Jan 30, 2008 12:26 PM, Vincent Snijders [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joost van der Sluis schreef: Can you tell me more about the problems with GDB ? That it's not available at all at win64. (since there's no gcc for win64) That is not the case anymore. Try ftp://ftp.hu.freepascal.org/pub/lazarus/Lazarus-0.9.25-fpc-2.2.1-20080130-win64.exe Vincent _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
mramirez schrieb: Compiler Design its not a trivial task. IT'S THE DIFFICULT TASK. A famous compiler book shows a knight trying to kill a dragon, as a metaphor. Nobody needs compiler building knowledge to push this matter. There are other things which prevent package support - provide an ftp.freepascal.org mirror (requires approx. 1TB/month traffic) to reduce the matter of download size - take care of the installer building and provide patches, it takes me usually several days before a release till the installer works again because of changed memory locations etc. so we know that we can make a more complicated build and install process because somebody takes care of it - make a proposal for a dyn. package naming scheme taking different OSes, file systems, release and snapshot versions into account. There is a workaround for this, that is compiling statically Lazarus with new units, when a component (package) is added. Is not the perfect solution. But it works. Actually, I see the delphi solution using dyn. packages as the workaround: - dyn. packages cause dll hell, keep in mind that _every_ possible combination of rtl, fcl, lcl needs its own set of dyn. packages - code in dyn. packages is slower - even commercial seem not to be able to provide stable debugger support for dyn. packages - dyn. packages cause a bigger memory footprint (dyn. packages cannot be smartlinked) - dyn. packages multiply download size, we don't ship on CD The only valid reason for dyn. packages is that someone don't want to publish its IDE sources _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
Florian Klaempfl schrieb: because of changed memory locations etc. so we know that we can make a memory=file :) _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [SPAM] Re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
Joost van der Sluis wrote: Personally I would rank debugger way higher on my wishlist than packages. That won't work. DDD is a frontend to GDB. And guess where the problem is? The problem is GDB. Can you tell me more about the problems with GDB ? Joost. regards Wim _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
Hi all, Well I've read this thread with interest, and now I want to interject. I learned pascal on my own in primary school. In high school I studied it much further. Then I entered university and it was all java (which I grew to hate). I began to work professionally, and learned many languages, I actually maintained some fpc projects right in the beginning - one of which was direqcafe - despite my job being in other languages, I loved pascal as an old friend and having fpc let me contribute to and learn linux development when nobody had heard of it with a much reduced learning curve - because I knew the language inside out from (by then) over 10 years experience. Later on, lazarus matured to the point where I rewrote direqcafe in it as a graphical app - and it was amazing. I have never even USED delphi - I was a poor coder in a poor country and lazarus let me learn OP and graphical programming on my own time with zero budget ! So I got better and better, and now there are some components included in lazarus which I wrote and some I helped others to write. Last year, I quit my job and founded a small development company called outkast solutions. My first (open source) project was outkafe - a newly redone direqcafe - a project that now has well over 10 thousand sites using it world wide - most of them in poor countries. If you go to a cybercafe in brazil there's a good chance it's using outkafe to manage them (I know of at least 5 in Sao Paulo and that's just the ones who mailed me to thank me - who knows how many others). I make my money by doing customized versions for customers, if they pay extra I give them the copyright to their version to license as they see fit. My biggest customization project just signed a deal which will see over 1000 cybercafe's built in the DRC using a derivative of outkafe with some extra features. In other words: I run a highly successful business (profitable in it's first year - almost unheard of) using lazarus, in fact, using EXCLUSIVELY free (as in speech AND beer) software ! I could never have done this if my overheads included thousands of USD (at 6 times the price + distance cost = about 10 times the price) in license fees. And the software I run my business on are not poor second rate stuff. Quasar accounting is absolutely perfect, even me who only has 8th grade accounting can keep my books up to legal requirements with hardly any effort, and lazarus lets me develop stable usable software that people are using. Lazarus is not a poor second cousin to delphi. It's the future of object pascal and it's abilities hugely exceed what you need to do successful, profitable development work. Yes there are features I would like to see - when I identify them, I try to help add them - I can actually DO that! In fact, I would say delphi could never have worked in my field because I consider THAT the killer feature. Whatever delphi cannot do - and that cannot be handled by a component - a delphi developer cannot do. In lazarus - if I need it, I add it. The closest thing to a grip I can have with lazarus if that it develops SO fast, that I am actually struggling to keep up to date with new features, I haven't even had a chance to study the new localization system yet so I can stop using the old one which is in outkafe. This is definitely much better than the alternative - developing so slow that people start to wonder if you ARE developing. I don't want to flame delphi, I want to state to all who flame lazarus that frankly lazarus puts bread on my plate, and delphi could not have - for several reasons, of which the most critical to me is that I can actually add the features I need to lazarus myself if they aren't there. I am actually fairly dogmatic about free software (in the FSF sense) - but I couldn't have afforded to BE that way if it could not do what my business requires - lazarus in particular provides the key single product my business relies on. Ciao A.J. -- Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic - Clarke's law Any technology that is distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced -Gehm's corollary Any technologist that is distinguishable from a magician is insufficiently advanced - My corollary The worlds worst webcomic: http://silentcoder.co.za/scartoonz The worlds best cybercafe manager: http://outkafe.outkastsolutions.co.za begin:vcard fn:AJ Venter n:Venter;AJ org:Global Pact Trading Pty. Ltd.;OutKast Solutions email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Director of Product Development tel;work:+27 21 554 5059 tel;fax:+27 11 252 9197 tel;cell:+27 83 455 9978 url:http://www.outkastsolutions.co.za version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [SPAM] Re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
Op dinsdag 29-01-2008 om 03:03 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef willem: Marco van de Voort wrote: Personally I would rank debugger way higher on my wishlist than packages. Yes I agree with you that a debugger is important. I am thinking of porting DDD to Lazarus. That won't work. DDD is a frontend to GDB. And guess where the problem is? The problem is GDB. Lazarus also has a frontend to gdb, and I think the lazarus-frontend is better then DDD. So Porting DDD seems quite useless. Joost. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
Wow, this is a great success story! I hope you don't mind, but I've added your project to the wiki of 3rd-party projects developed with Lazarus (feel free to edit it): http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Projects_using_Lazarus#OutKafe Maybe you could add a screenshot or two here: http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Lazarus_Application_Gallery I thought it was already on both ? A.J. -- Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic - Clarke's law Any technology that is distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced -Gehm's corollary Any technologist that is distinguishable from a magician is insufficiently advanced - My corollary The worlds worst webcomic: http://silentcoder.co.za/scartoonz The worlds best cybercafe manager: http://outkafe.outkastsolutions.co.za begin:vcard fn:AJ Venter n:Venter;AJ org:Global Pact Trading Pty. Ltd.;OutKast Solutions email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Director of Product Development tel;work:+27 21 554 5059 tel;fax:+27 11 252 9197 tel;cell:+27 83 455 9978 url:http://www.outkastsolutions.co.za version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
On Jan 29, 2008 2:57 AM, A.J. Venter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snipping well thoughtout, highly interesting background] I run a highly successful business (profitable in it's first year - almost unheard of) using lazarus Wow, this is a great success story! I hope you don't mind, but I've added your project to the wiki of 3rd-party projects developed with Lazarus (feel free to edit it): http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Projects_using_Lazarus#OutKafe Maybe you could add a screenshot or two here: http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Lazarus_Application_Gallery _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
Quoting A.J. Venter [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I don't want to flame delphi, I want to state to all who flame lazarus that frankly lazarus puts bread on my plate, and delphi could not have Well said. mramirez _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
I was waiting for this one, here it is, you wrote it!! At this time I'm far to be the best Lazarus contributor, but please let me explain why I am still there, why my mailer still fetch more than 1 hundred mails every day... with maybe 50% of them from lazarus, including debug list: On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 10:57 +0200, A.J. Venter wrote: I learned pascal on my own in primary school. In high school I studied Same thing here. it much further. Then I entered university and it was all java (which I grew to hate). I had to learn and use java for a long time, for professional purposes. I'm continuying to implement some java solutions. I don't hate it, but the fact is simple: I really prefer and love pascal, fpc, lazarus. exactly as you said: direqcafe - despite my job being in other languages, I loved pascal as an old friend and having fpc let me contribute to and learn linux I actually dozen of lazarus projects, some of them 'useables' but not releaseables yet. It's comming ;) 'bout Linux and Delphi... I began to use linux in 1995. I began to use Delphi at the same time, dreaming of the day when delphi'd be available on this fantastic OS. I have never even USED delphi - I was a poor coder in a poor country and lazarus let me learn OP and graphical programming on my own time with zero budget ! Same thing here: back in Madagascar since 2002, from France. In France, Cachan, I had the opportunity to talk about Free Softwares, Linux, FreePascal and lazarus (was it Megido??) trying to convince the Malagasy Diaspora of the opportunity given to Developping Countries by these stuffs! My experiences here in Madagascar prove that I was right! ;-) Last year, I quit my job and founded a small development company called I'm in my way to create one. Not entirely a development one but that's not the matter. outkast solutions. My first (open source) project was outkafe - a newly I'll give it a try! So many cybercafe here in Madagascar, many of them about to migrate to Linux! redone direqcafe - a project that now has well over 10 thousand sites using it world wide - most of them in poor countries. Kindly send the website's URL please ;) I run a highly successful business (profitable in it's first year - almost unheard of) using lazarus, in fact, using EXCLUSIVELY free (as in speech AND beer) software ! I believe you! Even if I have Delphi and Kylix, I prefer to use Lazarus when I need to develop an app. Because I saw it growing (one of my ongoing projects, once upon a time, was the beginning of a Delphi2 like using fpc GTK and some converted units... this was before I met megido!) I prefer to use lazarus because it's cross-platform, because... you said it... it's free, because... I was, and still am, really glad that better developpers than me are working so hard in order to let us use fpc and lazarus! Ok... you understood that I'm no more so in love with Delphi... huh, I still love Delphi but just a little bit... it's too windows-centric... I mean, if Delphi compatibility now really cause problem to Lazarus's quick growth, my opinion is to let Lazarus rule the world in allowing developers to produce effective and portable apps! period!!! okay, okay, I shut it up ;) effort, and lazarus lets me develop stable usable software that people are using. Yeah! And even if I saw many bugs apearing these months (gtk2 stuffs and so on), I argue that Lazarus is not so far to be the best of the best! Lazarus is not a poor second cousin to delphi. It's the future of object pascal and it's abilities hugely exceed what you need to do successful, profitable development work. Yes there are features I would like to see YOU SAID IT! - when I identify them, I try to help add them - I can actually DO that! That's where I'm lacking. And I know I'm not the only busy guy on this list! Huh... maybe, because of lack of practices, am I just the worst pascal developer in the world ;-))) I consider THAT the killer feature. Whatever delphi cannot do - and that cannot be handled by a component - a delphi developer cannot do. In lazarus - if I need it, I add it. yeah! once again, it's free software! When I first saw the subject of this thread, I was tempted to do [CTRL+H]+Del ! Now, I just want to change the Subject line: why do lazarus users hate delphi so much? okay, I won't! No, please believe me: I'm still loving Delphi... just a little bit... but... I mean,... (Okay, okay!! I sh... it up! ;- -- Linuxeries http://linuxeries.blogspot.com Toraka Bilaogy http://torakabilaogy.blogspot.com _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
Quoting Florian Klaempfl [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Nobody needs compiler building knowledge to push this matter. I read somewhere (mail-list/Lazarus web site) that there wasn't that problem. - provide an ftp.freepascal.org mirror (requires approx. 1TB/month traffic) to reduce the matter of download size - take care of the installer building and provide patches, it takes me usually several days before a release till the installer works again because of changed memory locations etc. so we know that we can make a more complicated build and install process because somebody takes care of it Can't help with that right now. - make a proposal for a dyn. package naming scheme taking different OSes, file systems, release and snapshot versions into account. I remember, CodeGear, had the same problem with kylix. Let see if I could think on something. combination of rtl, fcl, lcl needs its own set of dyn. packages DLL hell, yes I got it. - code in dyn. packages is slower You have to load the Dynamic Package (DLL/Shared Object) before, use pointers, and so on... - even commercial seem not to be able to provide stable debugger support for dyn. packages Is there a way, NOT TO DEBUG THEM,as a temporal fix ? The only valid reason for dyn. packages is that someone don't want to publish its IDE sources I think dyn. packages have other benefits as well, but you have made a point. There are several things that has to been made before can be implemented. Cheers. mramirez _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
Kindly send the website's URL please ;) http://outkafe.outkastsolutions.co.za Ciao A.J. -- Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic - Clarke's law Any technology that is distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced -Gehm's corollary Any technologist that is distinguishable from a magician is insufficiently advanced - My corollary The worlds worst webcomic: http://silentcoder.co.za/scartoonz The worlds best cybercafe manager: http://outkafe.outkastsolutions.co.za begin:vcard fn:AJ Venter n:Venter;AJ org:Global Pact Trading Pty. Ltd.;OutKast Solutions email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Director of Product Development tel;work:+27 21 554 5059 tel;fax:+27 11 252 9197 tel;cell:+27 83 455 9978 url:http://www.outkastsolutions.co.za version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [lazarus] Why do Delphi users hate Lazarus so much?
On 28/01/2008, Lee Jenkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I first learned of Lazarus on Delphi newsgroups... Exactly my point! :-) Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpGUI - a cross-platform Free Pascal GUI toolkit http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/ _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Why do Delphi users hate Lazarus so much?
Quoting zaher dirkey [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I Delphi programmer too (10 years) , and i like FPC/Lazarus too match, than Delphi. Same here. This day (before i see this comments), my co worker ask me if some day we see some people try to make fight Lazarus, i have no answer for him, and i hope no. Not necessarily. It seems to me, that many of the Lazarus ACTIVE developers were Delphi users (and cu$tomer$) until Borland/Inprise/CodeGear drop the quality of their products, services, and updates. It's NOT like My Lazarus IDE is better than you Delphi IDE, childish fighting attitude, BUT, rather, you no longer treat me well as a customer, I'll rather look somewhere else..., and that somewhere else is LAZARUS ;-) (OK bad english :P ) Seim jir, I mean, Same here ;-) Most of the people on this Lazarus mail-list, are non english-speakers. One of the reasons some people are interested in (Free as Free-Speech) Open Source Projects, its not to have the software we use AND PAID, available in the language we speak. Cheers (with a tequila !!!) mramirez _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Why do Delphi users hate Lazarus so much?
Quoting John Stoneham [EMAIL PROTECTED]: entire threads with subjects like Quit talking about Lazarus here or Its their company, and they forum. It's normal to diminish any of their products' competition (such as Lazarus). If you think you need cross-platform you don't need Delphi or some I heard that before, it may work for them. But not for us. Lazarus may help as a cross-platform tool, but also to replace a single platform, paidware tool, that didn't get updated by their providers... other nonsense. Why do they hate Lazarus so much?? CodeGear employees try to protect their business and jobs. Some customers/users think that if Lazarus performs better, CodeGear will stop improving/developing Delphi, and they will lost the software they STILL USE in their daily jobs... the last version I purchased -- which was some 6 or 7 years ago -- and My employers paid for their licenses, wanted updates, and get none. I tried to bought a professional version of Delphi 7, but the local Borland Representatives didn't care about mISV's, or bother to send the pricing info I request. swore I'd never purchase another Delphi product. Same here. Something that trills me, is that the Lazarus community is one of the Open Source communities, where people get involved because THEY REALLY NEED THE SOFTWARE, EVEN IF THEY COULD PAID FOR, NOT BECAUSE IT'S FREE AS A T-SHIRT !!! I just hope the Lazarus community isn't discouraged by those Some people may do, but I don't think that really affects Lazarus. When I hear about Lazarus in DELPHI NEWSGROUPS, and I discover Lazarus web site, I found at that time, that it was still at an very early stage, unsuitable for applications. That didn't discouraged me. I was interested on participate, but my job, didn't allow me. Today, other developers had the time, and Lazarus is a full-grown application ;-) So, if I where you, I care more about trying to help the project (if you have time, or the resources), than what Delphi users/developers think... Cheers (with a Tequila) mramirez _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
Warren Postma schreef: My reason for complaining about Lazarus, and calling it unusable, is that it suffers from worse usability defects (for what I want to use it for) than even the worst-ever versions of Delphi such as Delphi 2005. Such as? Please create bug reports, if they are not there yet. If Lazarus could be as useful to me as Delphi 7, I would change my opinion from nice little toy, to amazing open source platform pretty quickly. It's not that I hate Lazarus. I am deeply disappointed with it. I think we have to manage the expectations better. All the whiners who stopped buying from CodeGear because of low quality, seem to have no problem with the low quality and the missing basic features of Lazarus that Delphi has had since Delphi 3.0. What you pay for is what you get. In the Lazarus case (just a tiny bit) more. You still can't install packages in Lazarus because the underlying FPC compiler lacks a runtime package system that could support a more delphi-like designtime/runtime packages installation system. You can install packages in Lazarus, it just uses a different way. Vincent _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, Warren Postma wrote: Florian Klaempfl wrote: Warren Postma schrieb: You still can't install packages in Lazarus because the underlying FPC compiler lacks a runtime package system that could support a more delphi-like designtime/runtime packages installation system. Which by the way is the worst part of Delphi. Everyone complains about Delphi component installation headaches. If Lazarus develops ANY package support whatsoever, I'll contribute and help make it better. We had this discussion hundred times already and nobody showed a use case for dyn. packages in FPC/Lazarus which make the big troubles for maintainance and deploying of FPC/Lazarus itself worth the effort. _ You might just be right. And aiming low (where Delphi currently is) might be the wrong idea. I have a better idea, I think. *Alternative Strategy to Packages – Out of Process Component Proxy System* Your alternative misses the big point, actually THE biggest point: you cannot see the component in action. The great thing about delphi was (and is) that you can SEE the component in action in the IDE. If I set the Active property of a TDataset component to True, I see the data. That will never work with your system. Also, 2 components that interact with each other cannot be handled in your system. You have no choice but to have a live instance of the component in the IDE. Michael.
Re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
Florian Klaempfl wrote: Warren Postma schrieb: You still can't install packages in Lazarus because the underlying FPC compiler lacks a runtime package system that could support a more delphi-like designtime/runtime packages installation system. Which by the way is the worst part of Delphi. Everyone complains about Delphi component installation headaches. If Lazarus develops ANY package support whatsoever, I'll contribute and help make it better. We had this discussion hundred times already and nobody showed a use case for dyn. packages in FPC/Lazarus which make the big troubles for maintainance and deploying of FPC/Lazarus itself worth the effort. _ You might just be right. And aiming low (where Delphi currently is) might be the wrong idea. I have a better idea, I think. *Alternative Strategy to Packages – Out of Process Component Proxy System* *Problem:* Work-around allowing Lazarus to plug in and test/use a component without recompiling lazarus itself, and without requiring package support. * * *Bonus feature:* Better package support than Delphi in two critical ways: *While debugging a component*, it will be impossible to crash Lazarus using this system, as well, it is impossible to break your lazarus IDE so it won’t build. Secondly, because TComponentProxy feature is “always inside” Lazarus, any project you open that contains a component that is not compiled within the IDE, will be transparently loaded, and saved, and preserved within the DFM, perhaps even a saved image of what it looks like could be kept in the project directory, so you can easily open and view and even change a Lazarus app without rebuilding your IDE to contain some custom controls. *Design:* Introducing *TComponentProxy* – A component proxy has three main uses: 1. stand-in (‘body double’) for a missing Tcomponent class. 2. A proxy for an out-of-process component located in another process stub. Communicates via TCP/IP with an out-of-process component instance. 3. RTTI/Streaming/Persistence/DFM-reader/DFM-writer features in Lazarus must become aware of TComponentProxy and make the process of using an out-of-process designtime component simpler. It has a static appearance, a cached picture (bitmap image) of the control’s appearance, which is regenerated and refreshed. If the test-app is not running, then a big X appears indicating the place-holder controller. Actions (right click menu in designer) on the component are possible, and are sent to the test application via TCP/IP messages. These controls have several limitations: 1. They cannot contain other controls (as in panels) 2. They will usually display a sample appearance that cannot reflect complex object linkage, and are thus unsuitable for such controls as data-aware components, image list links, or which require designtime object reference lookups. Introducing *TcomponentTestApp –* The test app is a TCP/IP server app, it creates 1 or more instances of a particular class. Using a hidden Tform, it renders each control at a given width,height, transmits this rendered picture to the TComponentProxy, which then paints this “skin” onto its otherwise blank rectangle in the designer surface. The TCP/IP protocol has the following commands issued by the TComponentProxy, responses served up by the TComponentTestApp: GetImage(width,height) – Gets Image for given width/height. GetProperties – Gives text output of current properties in format all ready for DFM stream writing SetProperties – Given text input of current properties read from a DFM, set all your properties GetProperty(name) – get one property, return format in DFM compatible text. SetProperty(name,strDfm) – set one proprty, must use DFM compatible format. GetActions – Get list of strings which are actions. ExecuteAction(index) – Execute a right-click-on-component action designer. Default index # 0 is also invoked by double-clicking the component. The events that are fired (async) from the TcomponentTestApp are: ImageInvalidate – Appearance has changed, please call GetImage again. ActionComplete(index) – Action such as component editing is complete. DfmChange – You should call GetProperties again, and update the DFM. What do y'all think? Warren _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
On Mon, Jan 28, 2008 at 12:48:56PM -0500, Warren Postma wrote: My reason for complaining about Lazarus, and calling it unusable, is that it suffers from worse usability defects (for what I want to use it for) than even the worst-ever versions of Delphi such as Delphi 2005. One assumes here that a usability defects makes unusable per se. Which is false. Usability defects can be painful, but if it can be worked around, it can be still worth, depending on the gains. And there we get into the usual pattern. Not everybodies expectations and requirements are the same. If Lazarus could be as useful to me as Delphi 7, I would change my opinion from nice little toy, to amazing open source platform pretty quickly. Calling something a toy that people earn a living with, and other people invested over a decade in, doesn't gain credit points. Nor will they listen to your arguments. It's not that I hate Lazarus. I am deeply disappointed with it. All the whiners who stopped buying from CodeGear because of low quality, seem to have no problem with the low quality and the missing basic features of Lazarus that Delphi has had since Delphi 3.0. Maybe they still miss features in D2007 that FPC had in 1.0, like Linux support. Or multi-arch support like in 2.0 :-) Or generics, like in 2.2. You still can't install packages in Lazarus because the underlying FPC compiler lacks a runtime package system that could support a more delphi-like designtime/runtime packages installation system. Which by the way is the worst part of Delphi. Everyone complains about Delphi component installation headaches. To be honest, I use D7 daily. Mostly because in my current job I have no need for crosscompat atm. But in all my years of being a Delphi programmer, I never used packages, and in some ways the Lazarus package system is better (e.g. not having to manually add directories after installing a package, why couldn't that be fixed in 11 versions of Delphi?) If Lazarus develops ANY package support whatsoever, I'll contribute and help make it better. I only partially agree with Florian. I don't think a package system is useless, but it sure is overrated, and the costs are tremendous. It's that big hump that has stopped progres thusfar. Your messages is typical in this regard, and by the way roughly something that has been echoing in b.p.d.non-tech for about an year now as the lastest last-straw whip to bash Lazarus. Except the vague (and IMHO bogus) notation that packages is some silver bullet that will make Lazarus right, it doesn't provide any clue about usage patterns of packages, notion of implementation details, the question if versioning in an open source projects won't be awfully hard (364 1/4 .FPL packages every year. Minus one day when the server gets exchanged) etc etc. And of course, nobody wants to help. It must be there first, and then the same people will hold on to the next straw that FPC misses, something that has been going on since Delphi times (including one person that persisted that FPC is not there yet for ten years because it wouldn't compile his 16-bit asm) Personally I would rank debugger way higher on my wishlist than packages. But until the FPC base compiler supports some kind of runtime package support, I see no point working on the top level GUI (lazarus). Maybe I should try to help the FPC team write package support. I don't know if I can, I have zero compiler-writing experience. It's more linker knowlede btw. And we wouldn't mind. On a similar note, recently a new resources system was committed, mostly created by an interested external (thanks again Giulio) But may I suggest you should actually have a look at Lazarus internals beforehand, to really make sure you are not wasting time on a silver bullet that turns out to be rust? Another thing to think over is that if packages are less useful on non windows platforms, how useful is the package then? It will be some time that FPC beats Delphi in pure Delphi/win32 applications. Cross platform matters to me. So I'm not like most of the lazarus haters. I'm not a hater at all. But I am a critic. Uninformed critics are often awfully close to haters. Except the former word it better. That's not necessarily a direct crack at you, but be careful that you don't echo the tenure of that NG too much. It is rather simplistic. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
Warren Postma schrieb: You still can't install packages in Lazarus because the underlying FPC compiler lacks a runtime package system that could support a more delphi-like designtime/runtime packages installation system. Which by the way is the worst part of Delphi. Everyone complains about Delphi component installation headaches. If Lazarus develops ANY package support whatsoever, I'll contribute and help make it better. We had this discussion hundred times already and nobody showed a use case for dyn. packages in FPC/Lazarus which make the big troubles for maintainance and deploying of FPC/Lazarus itself worth the effort. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, Warren Postma wrote: My reason for complaining about Lazarus, and calling it unusable, is that it suffers from worse usability defects (for what I want to use it for) than even the worst-ever versions of Delphi such as Delphi 2005. If Lazarus could be as useful to me as Delphi 7, I would change my opinion from nice little toy, to amazing open source platform pretty quickly. It's not that I hate Lazarus. I am deeply disappointed with it. All the whiners who stopped buying from CodeGear because of low quality, seem to have no problem with the low quality and the missing basic features of Lazarus that Delphi has had since Delphi 3.0. Well, looking at the price you pay, it's quality/price ratio is still infinitely better than Delphi's :) You still can't install packages in Lazarus because the underlying FPC compiler lacks a runtime package system that could support a more delphi-like designtime/runtime packages installation system. Which by the way is the worst part of Delphi. Everyone complains about Delphi component installation headaches. I install packages in lazarus very often. It works differently than in Delphi, I'll grant you that. But definitely not worse than Delphi - and I am using Delphi 7. The delphi package system is the cause for the fact that I can run a program in the debugger exactly once, and then I must restart delphi, because on the next run it simply hangs. A side-effect of packages. As for the compiler support for packages: I'm all for it. But until someone steps up and actually starts working on it, instead of everybody skulking around on the mailing lists and waiting for someone else to do it, not much will get implemented. The compiler team currently has other things which it considers more urgent: a build packaging system for instance, which should make installing packages more easy, even if it requires a recompile. We are well on our way to complete it. The message to people waiting for a run-time package system is: roll up your sleeves, and start working on it. Any help, however small, is welcome. Even a basic list of requirements is already help. That is how open source works: collaboration by everybody. Michael. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
My reason for complaining about Lazarus, and calling it unusable, is that it suffers from worse usability defects (for what I want to use it for) than even the worst-ever versions of Delphi such as Delphi 2005. If Lazarus could be as useful to me as Delphi 7, I would change my opinion from nice little toy, to amazing open source platform pretty quickly. It's not that I hate Lazarus. I am deeply disappointed with it. All the whiners who stopped buying from CodeGear because of low quality, seem to have no problem with the low quality and the missing basic features of Lazarus that Delphi has had since Delphi 3.0. You still can't install packages in Lazarus because the underlying FPC compiler lacks a runtime package system that could support a more delphi-like designtime/runtime packages installation system. Which by the way is the worst part of Delphi. Everyone complains about Delphi component installation headaches. If Lazarus develops ANY package support whatsoever, I'll contribute and help make it better. But until the FPC base compiler supports some kind of runtime package support, I see no point working on the top level GUI (lazarus). Maybe I should try to help the FPC team write package support. I don't know if I can, I have zero compiler-writing experience. Cross platform matters to me. So I'm not like most of the lazarus haters. I'm not a hater at all. But I am a critic. Warren _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
On Jan 28, 2008 11:48 AM, Warren Postma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My reason for complaining about Lazarus, and calling it unusable, is that it suffers from worse usability defects (for what I want to use it for) than even the worst-ever versions of Delphi such as Delphi 2005. And these are...? I notice you didn't say bugs. Are you talking about design flaws or bug? And if they are bugs, have you reported them? If Lazarus could be as useful to me as Delphi 7, I would change my opinion from nice little toy, to amazing open source platform pretty quickly. In what ways is not as useful as D7? I find it much more usable, myself. It's not that I hate Lazarus. I am deeply disappointed with it. In what ways? Please be specific. All the whiners who stopped buying from CodeGear because of low quality, seem to have no problem with the low quality and the missing basic features of Lazarus that Delphi has had since Delphi 3.0. Which are...? You still can't install packages in Lazarus because the underlying FPC compiler lacks a runtime package system that could support a more delphi-like designtime/runtime packages installation system. Which by the way is the worst part of Delphi. Everyone complains about Delphi component installation headaches. Wait, I'm confused. You complain about not being able to install packages in Lazarus (which isn't true, BTW, it's just different than Delphi), but then you say that's the worst part about Delphi. So which is it? If Lazarus develops ANY package support whatsoever, I'll contribute and help make it better. They have, and you haven't. I think what you mean is dynamic package loading. Why is that a make-or-break feature? You *can* still use packages. In fact, because they aren't dynamically loaded, it doesn't break the debugger (which happens on Delphi all the time). Cross platform matters to me. So I'm not like most of the lazarus haters. I'm not a hater at all. But I am a critic. Vague criticism without details is simply hate draped in deceptive clothing. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [SPAM] re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
Warren Postma wrote: My reason for complaining about Lazarus, and calling it unusable, is that it suffers from worse usability defects (for what I want to use it for) than even the worst-ever versions of Delphi such as Delphi 2005. If Lazarus could be as useful to me as Delphi 7, I would change my opinion from nice little toy, to amazing open source platform pretty quickly. It's not that I hate Lazarus. I am deeply disappointed with it. All the whiners who stopped buying from CodeGear because of low quality, seem to have no problem with the low quality and the missing basic features of Lazarus that Delphi has had since Delphi 3.0. You still can't install packages in Lazarus because the underlying FPC compiler lacks a runtime package system that could support a more delphi-like designtime/runtime packages installation system. Which by the way is the worst part of Delphi. Everyone complains about Delphi component installation headaches. If Lazarus develops ANY package support whatsoever, I'll contribute and help make it better. But until the FPC base compiler supports some kind of runtime package support, I see no point working on the top level GUI (lazarus). Maybe I should try to help the FPC team write package support. I don't know if I can, I have zero compiler-writing experience. Well I have compiler experience and I know the Ubuntu and Debian Package support very well. But I do not understand your issue about runtime package support. Can you explain this issue further to me ? regards Wim Cross platform matters to me. So I'm not like most of the lazarus haters. I'm not a hater at all. But I am a critic. Warren _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [SPAM] re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
Michael Van Canneyt wrote: On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, Warren Postma wrote: My reason for complaining about Lazarus, and calling it unusable, is that it suffers from worse usability defects (for what I want to use it for) than even the worst-ever versions of Delphi such as Delphi 2005. If Lazarus could be as useful to me as Delphi 7, I would change my opinion from nice little toy, to amazing open source platform pretty quickly. It's not that I hate Lazarus. I am deeply disappointed with it. All the whiners who stopped buying from CodeGear because of low quality, seem to have no problem with the low quality and the missing basic features of Lazarus that Delphi has had since Delphi 3.0. Well, looking at the price you pay, it's quality/price ratio is still infinitely better than Delphi's :) You still can't install packages in Lazarus because the underlying FPC compiler lacks a runtime package system that could support a more delphi-like designtime/runtime packages installation system. Which by the way is the worst part of Delphi. Everyone complains about Delphi component installation headaches. I install packages in lazarus very often. It works differently than in Delphi, I'll grant you that. But definitely not worse than Delphi - and I am using Delphi 7. The delphi package system is the cause for the fact that I can run a program in the debugger exactly once, and then I must restart delphi, because on the next run it simply hangs. A side-effect of packages. As for the compiler support for packages: I'm all for it. But until someone steps up and actually starts working on it, instead of everybody skulking around on the mailing lists and waiting for someone else to do it, not much will get implemented. The compiler team currently has other things which it considers more urgent: a build packaging system for instance, which should make installing packages more easy, even if it requires a recompile. We are well on our way to complete it. The message to people waiting for a run-time package system is: roll up your sleeves, and start working on it. Any help, however small, is welcome. Even a basic list of requirements is already help. That is how open source works: collaboration by everybody. Michael. Well I am very satisfied with the Ubuntu , Debian package system. I am also using Eclipse, their package system gives me headaches. There are always ways to improve a package system. Regards Wim _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [SPAM] Re: [lazarus] why do delphi users hate lazarus so much?
Marco van de Voort wrote: On Mon, Jan 28, 2008 at 12:48:56PM -0500, Warren Postma wrote: My reason for complaining about Lazarus, and calling it unusable, is that it suffers from worse usability defects (for what I want to use it for) than even the worst-ever versions of Delphi such as Delphi 2005. One assumes here that a usability defects makes unusable per se. Which is false. Usability defects can be painful, but if it can be worked around, it can be still worth, depending on the gains. And there we get into the usual pattern. Not everybodies expectations and requirements are the same. If Lazarus could be as useful to me as Delphi 7, I would change my opinion from nice little toy, to amazing open source platform pretty quickly. Calling something a toy that people earn a living with, and other people invested over a decade in, doesn't gain credit points. Nor will they listen to your arguments. It's not that I hate Lazarus. I am deeply disappointed with it. All the whiners who stopped buying from CodeGear because of low quality, seem to have no problem with the low quality and the missing basic features of Lazarus that Delphi has had since Delphi 3.0. Maybe they still miss features in D2007 that FPC had in 1.0, like Linux support. Or multi-arch support like in 2.0 :-) Or generics, like in 2.2. You still can't install packages in Lazarus because the underlying FPC compiler lacks a runtime package system that could support a more delphi-like designtime/runtime packages installation system. Which by the way is the worst part of Delphi. Everyone complains about Delphi component installation headaches. To be honest, I use D7 daily. Mostly because in my current job I have no need for crosscompat atm. But in all my years of being a Delphi programmer, I never used packages, and in some ways the Lazarus package system is better (e.g. not having to manually add directories after installing a package, why couldn't that be fixed in 11 versions of Delphi?) If Lazarus develops ANY package support whatsoever, I'll contribute and help make it better. I only partially agree with Florian. I don't think a package system is useless, but it sure is overrated, and the costs are tremendous. It's that big hump that has stopped progres thusfar. Your messages is typical in this regard, and by the way roughly something that has been echoing in b.p.d.non-tech for about an year now as the lastest last-straw whip to bash Lazarus. Except the vague (and IMHO bogus) notation that packages is some silver bullet that will make Lazarus right, it doesn't provide any clue about usage patterns of packages, notion of implementation details, the question if versioning in an open source projects won't be awfully hard (364 1/4 .FPL packages every year. Minus one day when the server gets exchanged) etc etc. And of course, nobody wants to help. It must be there first, and then the same people will hold on to the next straw that FPC misses, something that has been going on since Delphi times (including one person that persisted that FPC is not there yet for ten years because it wouldn't compile his 16-bit asm) Personally I would rank debugger way higher on my wishlist than packages. Yes I agree with you that a debugger is important. I am thinking of porting DDD to Lazarus. But until the FPC base compiler supports some kind of runtime package support, I see no point working on the top level GUI (lazarus). Maybe I should try to help the FPC team write package support. I don't know if I can, I have zero compiler-writing experience. It's more linker knowlede btw. And we wouldn't mind. On a similar note, recently a new resources system was committed, mostly created by an interested external (thanks again Giulio) But may I suggest you should actually have a look at Lazarus internals beforehand, to really make sure you are not wasting time on a silver bullet that turns out to be rust? Another thing to think over is that if packages are less useful on non windows platforms, how useful is the package then? It will be some time that FPC beats Delphi in pure Delphi/win32 applications. Cross platform matters to me. So I'm not like most of the lazarus haters. I'm not a hater at all. But I am a critic. Uninformed critics are often awfully close to haters. Except the former word it better. That's not necessarily a direct crack at you, but be careful that you don't echo the tenure of that NG too much. It is rather simplistic. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Why do Delphi users hate Lazarus so much?
John Stoneham schrieb: Well, I guess the term Delphi users is a little broad, but it seems that every post that mentions Lazarus on borland.public.delphi.non-technical gets BLASTED by Delphi fanboys. 90% of the posts in b.p.d.non-tech would be qualified as troll posts on other mailings lists or in other newsgroups so I wouldn't care about it :) _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Why do Delphi users hate Lazarus so much?
I Delphi user and I love Lazaros (and FPC). :-) See the newsgoup name. Contains delphi and borland. That is a newsgroup on Borland's own newsserver about Delphi. Gabor John Stoneham írta: borland.public.delphi.non-technical _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Why do Delphi users hate Lazarus so much?
On Jan 27, 2008 7:05 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BTW: the cardinal mul/div overflow bug still exists in Delphi 2007 ;-) Wow, that's weird! They fixed it in the 7.1 update, but that update broke the integer optimization, which in my opinion was just as serious a bug. I guess they re-broke the overflow bug in a later fix! Whew, I'm glad I got out of that terrible loop. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Why do Delphi users hate Lazarus so much?
BTW: the cardinal mul/div overflow bug still exists in Delphi 2007 ;-) John Stoneham wrote: Well, I guess the term Delphi users is a little broad, but it seems that every post that mentions Lazarus on borland.public.delphi.non-technical gets BLASTED by Delphi fanboys. I mean, it's really amazing to see the outright hostility towards a free software package that might very well save Pascal as a language in the future (since it sure seems that CodeGear and Borland are heading down the drain pretty fast these days). Some of these guys even start entire threads with subjects like Quit talking about Lazarus here or If you think you need cross-platform you don't need Delphi or some other nonsense. Why do they hate Lazarus so much?? As a (former) Delphi user, I just can't understand this. Delphi 7 was the last version I purchased -- which was some 6 or 7 years ago -- and I refused to purchase a newer version because they refused to fix a very serious bug in D7* (here's a link to one of my complaints about it on the newsgroup, where I describe it in more detail than I care to here: http://tinyurl.com/2ws5gw ). Of course, they *claimed* it was fixed -- in fact, the QS bug listing showed it as closed and fixed because it was fixed in D8. Well it may have been fixed in D8, but I didn't buy D8, I bought D7. They really expected us to pay for an upgrade to get this bug-fix! That was the last straw for me, and I swore I'd never purchase another Delphi product. Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that I see Lazarus as salvation for the Delphi community, not something to be reviled and hated. So what if it's not as polished as Delphi! At least the FPC and Lazarus teams respond to bug reports!! And if it's something I really need fixed, I can always do it myself because it's open source. I just hope the Lazarus community isn't discouraged by those negative comments. -- John [*] It was actually two bugs. The main one was integer math optimization. But when they fixed that bug they broke Cardinal multiplication. So I had a choice, to use optimized integer math and making sure I didn't use any Cardinals, or not worry about the Cardinals and stick with un-optimized integer math. In my opinion, this was completely unacceptable, since I was developing a simulation package that made heavy use of both Cardinals and integer math, and it needed to be optimized. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Why do Delphi users hate Lazarus so much?
I Delphi programmer too (10 years) , and i like FPC/Lazarus too match, than Delphi. This day (before i see this comments), my co worker ask me if some day we see some people try to make fight Lazarus, i have no answer for him, and i hope no. (OK bad english :P ) On Jan 27, 2008 3:22 PM, John Stoneham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 27, 2008 7:05 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BTW: the cardinal mul/div overflow bug still exists in Delphi 2007 ;-) Wow, that's weird! They fixed it in the 7.1 update, but that update broke the integer optimization, which in my opinion was just as serious a bug. I guess they re-broke the overflow bug in a later fix! Whew, I'm glad I got out of that terrible loop. _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives -- Zaher Dirkey
Re: [lazarus] Why do Delphi users hate Lazarus so much?
I just hope the Lazarus community isn't discouraged by those negative comments. ;-) Everything there is being bashed. In my opinion nothing in that forum should ever be taken to serious (including the teamb or codegear-team msgs). Its all free advertisement in the end (that included the bad msg). _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
Re: [lazarus] Why do Delphi users hate Lazarus so much?
On 27/01/2008, John Stoneham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, I guess the term Delphi users is a little broad, but it seems that every post that mentions Lazarus on borland.public.delphi.non-technical gets BLASTED by Delphi fanboys. I Take all those comments with a pinch of salt. ;-) I believe they can do and say what they want, it's a Delphi newsgroup after all. BUT every time they mention the word Lazarus, they are making our product know. Somebody might start wondering, what is this Lazarus that everybody is going on about Free advertising! :-) Ask any person in advertising, there is no such thing a good or bad advertising! Any publicity is good publicity. Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpGUI - a cross-platform Free Pascal GUI toolkit http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/ _ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
