[LUTE] Re: Pavana alla veniciana

[Ralf Mattes]

On 15.09.20 19:33, Rainer wrote:

Dear lute netters,

the Tabualturbeilage 2018/4 contains a few pieces from Judenkunig's 
Underweisung.


One of the pieces - the pvavana all Veniciana - looks very strange. Bars 
15, 23, 31, 39 and 47 (attention: the barring in the Tabulaturbeilage is 
a mess) contain a minim(?) rest which does not make any musical sense.


I think Judenkunig uses it to indicate that the previous note is dotted. 
Apparent he had no other means to indicate dotted rhythm)


Well, this is the common notation for _rests_ in german lute tablature.
The distinction between rests and dots is often blurry in early 16th 
century sources. Dotted notes are often notated as either rests or 
repeated notes/chords.


 Cheers, RalfD




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[LUTE] Re: My web site (long and probably tedious)

[Ralf Mattes]

On 05.09.20 18:29, G. C. wrote:

  PS What might also be good, would be the ability to send parts of
 messages in bold/italic etc which the current system   seems to
  put into
 plain text. For example, my interpolations here would be clearer
  if put
 in bold.


Why ignore the de-facto standard that exist for quotes in mails since 
the beginning of time (long before "the internet" became a thing).

Quotes are prefixed with '>' (or, if you insist, with '|'). That way you
can even quote quotes etc.

Any decent mail client will do this automatically when you chose to 
'reply' to an email.



You could yourself have made them clearer by putting marks like plus
signs or asterisks or whatever at beginning and end. I know that
separating text doesn't seem to work sometimes,  and don't understand
why that  is.
G.


Cheers, Ralf Mattes



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[LUTE] Re: My web site

[Ralf Mattes]

On 04.09.20 15:19, ftribi...@gmail.com wrote:

First all many thanks to Wayne for his great work in these decades!


+1 Same from here!



I totally agree about Facebook. It has nothing to do with the lute list as
we know it.


+1000!


What about just a simple Google discussion group? It is very easy to
maintain, it is free and can keep all the past messages. Actually, it can be
configured as a moderated (if needed) mailing list, but in addition it
offers a web interface to browse conversations and old messages.


Please, no. The difference between Facebook an Google in terms of data 
privacy are unfortunately pretty small (long gone are the times where 
Google where the good ones, sigh).


 Cheers,

  RalfD



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[LUTE] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: A trivia question

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Samstag, 29. August 2020 18:59 CEST, Sarge Gerbode  
schrieb: 
 
> I meant -- someone in Renaissance times listening to a performance.

Unless one is dancing to the music - long-time dance events must have been 
common. Wasn't it Burney
who reported about spanish dance events lasting all night with two bands 
playing alternatim to get through
the night. 15th ccentury iconography often shows two shawn players in the alta 
capella with only one playing -
which also indicates that bands where expected to provide music for an extended 
time.

 Cheers, RalfD

> 
> --Sarge
> 
> On 8/29/2020 9:44 AM, Mayes, Joseph wrote:
> > This raises a question as well: Where would one have found this 
> > "renaissance audience?"
> > 
> > From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 
> >  on behalf of Sarge Gerbode 
> > 
> > Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2020 11:52 AM
> > To: G. C.; Lutelist
> > Subject: [EXTERNAL] [LUTE] Re: A trivia question
> >
> > I think this one wins the prize, but I am not sure variations on this
> > kind should win, as they are a sort of grab bag one could select from
> > for any particular performance. I think even a Renaissance audience
> > would be put to sleep by an hour-long set of variations.
> >
> > So what's the longest non-variation piece?
> >
> > --Sarge
> >
> > On 8/29/2020 6:56 AM, G. C. wrote:
> >> Vincenzo Galilei wrote 100 variations over the Romanesca, which would take 
> >> more
> >> than one hour to perform
> >>
> >>  On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 2:54 PM G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>[2]https://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg24116.html
> >>
> >>  --
> >>
> >> References
> >>
> >>      1. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
> >>  2. https://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg24116.html
> >>
> >>
> >> To get on or off this list see list information at
> >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
 
 
 
-- 
Ralf Mattes

Hochschule für Musik Freiburg
Projektleitung HISinOne
Schwarzwaldstr. 141, D-79102 Freiburg
http://www.mh-freiburg.de
 

[LUTE] Re: Les charmes de la vie - Watteau

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Freitag, 17. Juli 2020 18:32 CEST, Monica Hall 
 schrieb: 
 
> I still don't get it!
> 
> Neither picture seems to make sense to me even when put side to side. In the 
> Lute player the back view of the instrument is shown but the peg box is 
> skewed to the front. The peg box is curved and the pegs inserted laterally.

To me the "lute" almost looks like some kind of mandora/gallichon and the 
perspective (esp. of the pegbox) looks
dlightly distorted.

 
> In the Theorbo player the back view of the instrument is shown and the lower 
> peg box is in line with the neck but the upper peg box is skewed to the front.

That skewedness I can't see.
 
> With your left arm stretched out it is almost impossible to get your hand 
> into the position shown.

As a (former) theorbo player I don't agree. That's exactly how I would do it, 
esp. if I need to tune up while slightly pushing the peg
into the peg hole.
 
>  And where is his right arm. Normally you would be plucking the string to 
> hear if it were in tune.

Looks like he's pluging the string over the rose or even higher up the string 
where the neck meets the body. Not unseen once
the instrument reaches a certain size.

 Cheers RalfD 
> Monica
> 
> > On 17 July 2020 at 12:12 David Van Edwards  wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Dear Monica,
> > 
> > There's another related Watteau painting in the Wallace collection 
> > (Pour nous prouver que cette belle) showing the same hand in much 
> > more detail. Different instrument so the pegbox is a bit narrower and 
> > that maybe makes the hand more possible. But the brushwork here shows 
> > that Watteau clearly enjoyed the extreme muscularity and effort of 
> > the fingers which is such a contrast to the languid feeling of the 
> > rest of the painting. These fingers are in many ways the focal point 
> > of the painting and the difficulty is the message.
> > 
> > I think the other commenters are right, it is the two middle fingers 
> > holding up the pegbox while the first finger and thumb turn the peg. 
> > The little finger meanwhile is curled up with the effort.
> > 
> > You can see it here thanks to the ArtUK collection.
> > 
> > https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/pour-nous-prouver-que-cette-belle-209396/view_as/grid/search/keyword:pour-nous-prouver-que-cette-belle/page/1#
> > 
> > Best wishes,
> > 
> > David
> > 
> > At 10:50 +0100 17/7/20, Monica Hall wrote:
> > >"Les charmes de la vie" is a well-known painting by Watteau in the 
> > >Wallace Collection. You just need to put in the title "Les charmes 
> > >de la vie" to bring up several examples of it.
> > >
> > >However, what puzzles me is the odd position of his left arm and 
> > >hand which seem to me to be anatomically impossible. It looks as if 
> > >his fingers are stopping the back of the neck. Even if he was tuning 
> > >it it couldn't be like that. What do the rest of you think. Am I 
> > >missing somthing crucial?
> > >
> > >As ever
> > >
> > >Monica
> > >--
> > >
> > >To get on or off this list see list information at
> > >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > The Smokehouse,
> > 6 Whitwell Road,
> > Norwich,  NR1 4HB  
> > England.
> > 
> > Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
> > Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk
> > 
> >
> 
> 
 
 
 
-- 
Ralf Mattes

Hochschule für Musik Freiburg
Projektleitung HISinOne
Schwarzwaldstr. 141, D-79102 Freiburg
http://www.mh-freiburg.de
 

[LUTE] Re: Les charmes de la vie - Watteau

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Freitag, 17. Juli 2020 11:50 CEST, Monica Hall 
 schrieb: 
 
[...]
> However, what puzzles me is the odd position of his left arm and hand which 
> seem to me to be anatomically impossible. It looks as if his fingers are 
> stopping the back of the neck. Even if he was tuning it it couldn't be like 
> that. What do the rest of you think. Am I missing somthing crucial?

I can't see any problem - the theorbo player is tuning his 5th string. Thumb 
and index finger on the peg, little finger 
curled in, the middle two used to support the back of the pegbox.

 Cheers, RalfD
 
> As ever
> 
> Monica
> --
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
-- 
Ralf Mattes

Hochschule für Musik Freiburg
Projektleitung HISinOne
Schwarzwaldstr. 141, D-79102 Freiburg
http://www.mh-freiburg.de
 

[LUTE] Re: Vanishing lute tops – or not?

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Samstag, 13. Juni 2020 13:37 CEST, Jörg Hilbert  
schrieb: 
 
> Dear collected wisdom,

Hello Jörg,

 
> there are quite a lot of different ideas of how to vanish lute tops (or not). 
> How was it with the old instruments? Were they always/sometimes/never 
> vanished? What do we really know?

If you really want to vanish your lute top then I'd suggest the use of a belt 
grinder ... ;-)

But if instead you want to arnish your lute there are several options.  "What 
do we really know"?
Unfortunatela, very little, few if any lute tops survived unmodified, so what 
we see toady might
not be what the original had when it was sold. There seems to be some evidence 
that earlier (16th
century) lutes just had a covering of egg white to protect the top.

 Cheers, RalfD
 
> Thanks 
> Jörg
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
-- 
Ralf Mattes

Hochschule für Musik Freiburg
Projektleitung HISinOne
Schwarzwaldstr. 141, D-79102 Freiburg
http://www.mh-freiburg.de
 

[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Freitag, 05. Juni 2020 17:48 CEST, Monica Hall 
 schrieb: 
 
[...]
> But seriously things did continue to be copied long after they had first 
> appeared in print. For instance Castillian's manuscript copied in 1730 
> includes pieces which were 80 years old at the time. Unless the ms. is dated 
> discretion is the best part of valour.

Also, let's not forget that a substantial part of medieval music (and texts) is
only preserved in manuscripts from much later.
* Codex Manesse (main source for german Minnesang): appr. 100 after the
   time of creation
* All trobador music: ca. 100 late and from a different region.
* Squarcialupi Codex: 15th century manuscript with 14th century music

Even many 16th century lute manuscripts (and prints!) contain music of an
older generation.

 Cheers, RalfD
  
> As ever
> 
> Monica 
> 
> > On 05 June 2020 at 11:44 Martyn Hodgson  wrote:
> > 
> >  
> > Dear Monica,
> > 
> > Well quite true - but if there's nothing else it at least gives a rough 
> > indication. I mean I'm pretty sure from stylistic grounds it wasn't 
> > compiled in, say, Arthur Sullivan's times
> > 
> > Regarding bibliographical makeup, as said I'm entirely ignorant of its 
> > paper/watermarks etc..  However, and I don't know if this counts as part of 
> > the sort of  bibliographical makeup you have in mind,  I did briefly 
> > mention dates of the names represented in the Ms which surely gives some 
> > sort of indication of the date of compilation.
> > 
> > regards
> > 
> > Martyn
> > 
> > On Friday, 5 June 2020, 11:27:09 BST, Monica Hall 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > To be honest I don't think it is the usual classic scholarly course to 
> > attempt to date a source by its contents and style. Someone on an earlier 
> > occasion on the list commented
> > 
> > "As a musicologist student, I learned that style criticism should be
> > avoided because it cannot be valid evidence”.
> > 
> > Music continued to be popular and played after it was first composed. 
> > Some of Corbetta's music is found in sources copied 50 years after his 
> > death.
> > 
> > The only way to date a manuscript with any sort of accuracy is from its 
> > bibliographical makeup and even that is not straight forward.
> > 
> > As ever
> > Monica
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > On 05 June 2020 at 11:05 Martyn Hodgson < 
> > hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 
> > mailto:hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >Dear Ralf,
> > >No - I'm not suggesting your 'circular reasoning', in particular I
> > >can't see I suggested that, as you put it,  'The music wasn't
> > >fashionable because it isn't contained in MS. from that time'.
> > >Rather I'm adopting the usual classic scholarly course of 
> > attempting to
> > >date a source by its contents and style. I may, of course, be
> > >wrong!...
> > >Martyn
> > >
> > >On Friday, 5 June 2020, 09:56:53 BST, Ralf Mattes < 
> > r...@mh-freiburg.de mailto:r...@mh-freiburg.de >
> > >wrote:
> > >Am Freitag, 05. Juni 2020 10:34 CEST, Martyn Hodgson
> > ><[1] hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 
> > mailto:hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > schrieb:
> > >>Dear Monica,
> > >>Indeed - the Ms may have been copied later than the 1680/90s I
> > >>suggest.  But bear in mind that most of the lute works are 
> > from
> > >the
> > >>earlier generation such as Pinel (d. 1661) Strobel (d.1669),
> > >Hotman
> > >>(also a tiorba player d.1663),  Dufault (d. 1672), Gautier
> > >d'Angleterre
> > >>(d. 1652) et al, who were no longer particularly fashionable 
> > by
> > >the
> > >>late seventeenth/early eighteenth century.
> > >That's a classic case of circular reasoning.
> > >-> The music wasn't fashionable because it isn't contained in MS. 
> > from
> > >that time.
> > >-> That Ms. can't be from that time because it contains 
> > unfashionable
> > >music .
> > >>So it seems reasonable to me
> > >>that a terminal date around 1680/90 for the co

[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Freitag, 05. Juni 2020 12:27 CEST, Monica Hall 
 schrieb: 
 
> To be honest I don't think it is the usual classic scholarly course to 
> attempt to date a source by its contents and style. Someone on an earlier 
> occasion on the list commented 

That's what I just wanted to reply as well.

> "As a musicologist student, I learned that style criticism should be 
> avoided because it cannot be valid evidence”.

Same here - because it leads to the circular reinforcement I mentioned in my 
first post. 

> Music continued to be popular and played after it was first composed. Some of 
> Corbetta's music is found in sources copied 50 years after his death.
> 
> The only way to date a manuscript with any sort of accuracy is from its 
> bibliographical makeup and even that is not straight forward.

Indeed!

 Cheers, RalfD

-- 
Ralf Mattes

Hochschule für Musik Freiburg
Projektleitung HISinOne
Schwarzwaldstr. 141, D-79102 Freiburg
http://www.mh-freiburg.de
 





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[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo

[Ralf Mattes]

/index.html
>>  > >>
>>  > >>--
>>  > >>
>>  > >> References
>>  > >>
>>  > >>1.
>>[2][11][13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>  > >>
>>  This message is intended only for the use of the individual or
>entity
>>  to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is
>>  privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under
>applicable
>>  law. If the reader of this message is not the intended
>recipient, or
>>  the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to
>the
>>  intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
>dissemination,
>>  distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly
>>prohibited.
>>  If you have received this communication in error, please notify
>us
>>  immediately by telephone and return the original message to us
>at
>>  [12][14]i...@legalaidbuffalo.org --
>>References
>>  1. [13][15]https://aka.ms/ghei36
>>  2.
>[14][16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>--
>>
>> References
>>
>>1. mailto:[17]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>>2. mailto:[18]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>>3. mailto:[19]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>>4. mailto:[20]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
>>5. mailto:[21]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
>>6. mailto:[22]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>7. mailto:[23]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
>>8. mailto:[24]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>>9. mailto:[25]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>>  10. [26]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>  11. [27]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>  12. mailto:[28]i...@legalaidbuffalo.org
>>  13. [29]https://aka.ms/ghei36
>>  14. [30]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
> 
>--
> 
> References
> 
>1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>2. mailto:rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org
>3. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>4. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>5. mailto:mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>6. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
>7. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
>8. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>9. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
>   10. mailto:hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>   11. mailto:mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>   12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>   13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>   14. mailto:i...@legalaidbuffalo.org
>   15. https://aka.ms/ghei36
>   16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>   17. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>   18. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>   19. mailto:mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>   20. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
>   21. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
>   22. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>   23. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
>   24. mailto:hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>   25. mailto:mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>   26. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>   27. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>   28. mailto:i...@legalaidbuffalo.org
>   29. https://aka.ms/ghei36
>   30. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
 
 
 
-- 
Ralf Mattes

Hochschule für Musik Freiburg
Projektleitung HISinOne
Schwarzwaldstr. 141, D-79102 Freiburg
http://www.mh-freiburg.de
 

[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo

[Ralf Mattes]

h.edu
>7. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
>8. mailto:rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org
>9. mailto:rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org
>   10. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>   11. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>   12. mailto:mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>   13. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
>   14. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
>   15. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>   16. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
>   17. mailto:hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>   18. mailto:mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>   19. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>   20. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>   21. mailto:i...@legalaidbuffalo.org
>   22. https://aka.ms/ghei36
>   23. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>   24. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>   25. mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>   26. mailto:mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>   27. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
>   28. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
>   29. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>   30. mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
>   31. mailto:hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>   32. mailto:mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>   33. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>   34. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>   35. mailto:i...@legalaidbuffalo.org
>   36. https://aka.ms/ghei36
>   37. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>Hidden links:
>   39. https://www.scribd.com/document/138088727/A-Wn-MusHs-17706
> 
 
 
 
-- 
Ralf Mattes

Hochschule für Musik Freiburg
Projektleitung HISinOne
Schwarzwaldstr. 141, D-79102 Freiburg
http://www.mh-freiburg.de
 

[LUTE] Re: Lute strap

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Freitag, 22. Mai 2020 20:35 CEST, "G. C."  schrieb: 
 
>  I am surprized, that noone has yet mentioned the type of strap that
>  you sat on. It seems like a very effective solution.

I think this is maybe because there is no (historical) evidence for suh straps. 
IIRC they are
a modern invention. I first saw them with Paul O'Dette and Hopkinson Smith.

 Cheers, RalfD

> 
>And can anybody remind me of the name of that modern X-strap at the
>back, which seems like the optimal solution?
>G.
> 
>--
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
-- 
Ralf Mattes

Hochschule für Musik Freiburg
Projektleitung HISinOne
Schwarzwaldstr. 141, D-79102 Freiburg
http://www.mh-freiburg.de
 

[LUTE] Re: Lute strap

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Freitag, 22. Mai 2020 12:24 CEST, Tristan von Neumann 
 schrieb: 
 
> I am going to make myself a nice lute strap.
> 
> So I have been digging through paintings...
> 
> Weirdly, no one ever seems to use any form of strap...

Look closer/search better. Just two:

- https://www.vanedwards.co.uk/spencer/html/spencer4.htm, last picture on page.
- the chitarrone player from the medici band as depicted on Torelli's Theorbo 
method
  (or here 
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ce/b0/1c/ceb01c35498e2df02fd664caa582f1e7.jpg)

I think you'll find more at Watteau et al.

 Cheers, RalfD

> 
> How did they manage to play?
> 
> Or did the painters not bother painting them?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
-- 
Ralf Mattes

Hochschule für Musik Freiburg
Projektleitung HISinOne
Schwarzwaldstr. 141, D-79102 Freiburg
http://www.mh-freiburg.de
 

[LUTE] Re: About vocal intabulations

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Mittwoch, 29. April 2020 16:48 CEST, Guilherme Barroso 
 schrieb: 
 
>Thanks a lot Martin.
>Incredible these left hand fingerings that he proposes.

Those wouldn't all to unusual to modern jazz guitar players. It's probably more 
strange
that lute players often insist on using a left-hand guitar technique that only 
exists since
the 19th century. 

 Cheers, RalfD





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[LUTE] Re: USB Microphone

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Sonntag, 29. März 2020 23:02 CEST, John Trout  
schrieb: 
 
>Can anyone recommend a relatively inexpensive USB microphone that I can
>use with. Macbook Pro for lessons over the internet and possible home
>recordings?

Define "relatively inexpensive". All Zoom recorders can be used as USB 
microphones/audio
interfaces. I use a Zoom H4. As a nice side effect you can use them without a 
computer,
recording to a SD disk.

 Hope that helps,

 RalfD


> 
> 
>Thanks, � John
> 
>--
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
-- 
Ralf Mattes

Hochschule für Musik Freiburg
Projektleitung HISinOne
Schwarzwaldstr. 141, D-79102 Freiburg
http://www.mh-freiburg.de
 

[LUTE] Re: Fuenllana "author. D."

[Ralf Mattes]

> Am 15.01.2020 um 16:23 schrieb Mumin Lute :
> 
>   Dear collective wisdom,
>   This could be ridiculously silly question because of my lack of some
>   very basic knowledge, but it would be very much appreciated if anyone
>   could direct me to the right answer...
>   In Fuenllana's Orphenica Lyra,
>   what does " D " or "F" in   the heading of the piece stand for?
>It first appears on fol.17v as "Fantasia del author. .D.", capitalized
>   and coloured in red.

IIRC that indicates the difficulty of the piece. 

 Cheers, RalfD

>   The following pieces apparently are fantasia by the author himself,
>   the explanatory title on the top of the
>page says "Fantasia a quattro, Fuenllana." without any other
>   attributions, so I guess the letter is not the initial of a composer.
>   "F" is another mysterious letter on
>the heading..e.g. "Motete a quatro de Gombert. .F." on fol.50v... . I
>   was inclined to think F is for Fuenllana but it obviously is not ..
>   Regards,
>   Tomoko
>   .
> 
>   --
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: A strange "error" in Maestro

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Dienstag, 15. Oktober 2019 08:48 CEST, Alain Veylit 
 schrieb: 
 
>I cannot read this thread without thinking about Spinacino's duets,
>particularly the setting of Ghiselin's Jolis amours: are the notes
>wrong or is it our ears? Yet, I had found a very convincing rendition
>of that duet a while ago on the Net, played as printed 500 years ago
>(already!) -- I believe  Karl-Ernst Schröder was on one of the 2 lutes

That would be from the lute duet CD of Crawford Young and Karl-Ernst Schröder.

Cheers, RalfD

 
-- 
Ralf Mattes

Hochschule für Musik Freiburg
Projektleitung HISinOne
Schwarzwaldstr. 141, D-79102 Freiburg
http://www.mh-freiburg.de
 





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[LUTE] Re: Thomann Canterella and LLD lutes

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Freitag, 20. September 2019 11:00 CEST, David van Ooijen 
 schrieb: 
 
>I think the author of the video is too quick in accusing Thomann
>instead of the Chinese supplier. 

I think the author of said video might be up for an unpleasant surprise - he's 
accusing
Thomann of a crime. He better has some convincing  prove of evidence.

>Chinese suppliers of copied
>instruments often use the pictures  from the originals, and not form
>their own work. If you go internet shopping for a cheap Chinese Gibson,
>Fender or fancy jazz guitar, you'll find the suppliers use the pictures
>taken from the websites of the original guitars, and not pictures from
>what you will actually get. 

I don't think this is a case of a stolen picture. If I understand correctly, 
the instruments sold by
 Le Luth Doré  are in fact produced by a third party manufacturer ("... 
provisions of LLD’s manufacturing agreements"
to quote their statement).  It's rather likely that said (unnamed) manufacutrer 
(most likely a chinese company)
did sell the same instruments to Thomann (a company that doesn't build 
instruments at all, it's just a large resale
company). Whether or not this was legal depends on the contracts between Le 
Luth Doré and it's manufacturer.
Accusing Thomann of "copyright/inelectual property" infringement is pretty 
silly. They most likely just bought up
a charge of instruments on the international market - after all, those 
instruments don't seem to be part of their
regular catalog.

>I'm sure Thomann violates copyright laws by
>distributing these instruments, if they actually did because in all the
>stories I haven't heard anyone yet who actually bought one of the
>Thomann Chanterelle copycat lutes, but I think the focus of LDD should
> be at looking at what's going on at their Chinese lute supplier.
>On a side note. I'm interested in the copyright on a historically
>accurate lute. If a luthier makes a historically accurate lute, whose
>copyright are you infringing if you make that same historically
>accurate  lute?

Even so IANAL I'm pretty shure there is no "copyright" on instrument (or any 
kind of industrial) design.
There is either a patent  (highly unlikely ;-) or what is called a 'utility 
patent' / 'utility model' (germ. "Gebrauchsmuster").
Now, in most jurisdictions, those need to be registered before you can enforce 
them. Maybe Le Luth Doré might
have failed to do so. Or the chinese company just didn't care - this IS a known 
problem in the chinese-european
trade. 

 Cheers, RalfD

 





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[LUTE] Re: Colochon/gallichon,(sic), etc.

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Freitag, 06. September 2019 20:56 CEST,  schrieb: 
 
> Hi, folks—
> 
> I was just asked to produce some program notes for a concert taking place in 
> about 2 weeks. Of course, my notes are due in less than a week to accommodate 
> the program editor, etc.
> 
> The concert features music for lute, gallichon/colochon and early guitar as 
> well as music for viola da gamba and focuses on the end of the baroque era 
> and the demise of the viol and lute. 
> 
> In any case, I have to write a bit about the gallichon/colochon and I know 
> some of you out there have experience with the instrument and some of you may 
> even have some strong opinions about what it was, what it was called (and 
> why) and what music was played on it.
> 
> I have a Lute News article by Linda Sayce, an LSA newsletter about Vivaldi’s 
> leuto by Eric Liefeld and an article by Donald Gill from LS journal, all 
> dealing with these instruments. And, of course, Grove/Oxford Online article 
> on calichon.
> 
> Anyone have any suggestions of more recent articles, etc. that I might want 
> look at? I don’t have a lot of time, so I cannot go too far down the rabbit 
> hole on this, but if there are any new ideas floating around, it would be fun 
> to have a look at them.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your help.

Probably the most up-to-date entry point would be Andreas Schlegel's book on 
european lutes. He also
provides some online information at 
https://accordsnouveaux.ch/de/instrumente/mandora-galizona-colascione

There you'll find both a list of extant works for the instrument (family) as 
well as a bibliography.

HTH, RalfD

 
-- 
Ralf Mattes

Hochschule für Musik Freiburg
Projektleitung HISinOne
Schwarzwaldstr. 141, D-79102 Freiburg
http://www.mh-freiburg.de
 





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[LUTE] Re: Corigniani

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Freitag, 21. Juni 2019 18:02 CEST, Alain Veylit  
schrieb: 
 
> There is a very nice concerto for 2 Baroque lutes and basso at the 
> Brussels Royal library by a mister (or mrs) Corigniani. Google turns up 
> very little on that composer, except that it may be a pseudonym for a 
> German composer. What is the rationale/research to doubt that Corigniani 
> was  Italian? Is there a notice for Corigniani in the latest Grove?

No, nothing except the mention of the concerto in 'Sources of Lute Music'
(https://doi.org/10.1093/gmo/9781561592630.article.26299) by  Ness and 
Kolczynski.

 Cheers, RalfD





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[LUTE] Re: decent field recorder for lute

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Sonntag, 19. Mai 2019 19:06 CEST, Tristan von Neumann 
 schrieb: 
 
> It seems the Zoom can be powered by USB when recording at the computer?
> If not, I would tend to buy the Tascam with longer battery life.

 I can't speak about the newer H4 devices, but USB bus power only worked when 
the device was pluged into
to computer before switching it on.

 Cheers, RalfD

 
 





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[LUTE] Re: decent field recorder for lute

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Freitag, 17. Mai 2019 20:26 CEST, David van Ooijen 
 schrieb: 
 

>The best thing in both units is that you can override the auto gain
>(don't even know if the bigger unit has auto gain, the bane of dynamic
>playing).

Yeah, you would never want to use auto-gain ;-)

Cheers, RalfD

 
 
 





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[LUTE] Re: decent field recorder for lute

[Ralf Mattes]

Yes, Tascam does make some pretty nice hardware. But keep in mind: the 
"cheaper" (<200 Euro) models lack the possibility
to plug in external mics. That's fine for concert recordings but if you want to 
do a semi-professional solo lute recording
(esp. in a sub-optimal recording space) you probably want mics that can be 
carefully placed.

 Cheers, RalfD
 
Am Freitag, 17. Mai 2019 20:11 CEST, Matthew Daillie  
schrieb: 
 
> I have a Tascam DR-1 and it has given me years of loyal service. It gives a 
> very clean, natural sound, has good build quality and the original battery 
> still provides outstanding autonomy. This model has obviously been superseded 
> but there are several others on offer. Try to see one in the flesh before 
> purchase to check on the robustness of the models of the present range. 
> Tascam have been in business for years, notably providing equipment to 
> professional recording studios and radio stations but I suspect the cheaper 
> models cut corners on solidity.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Matthew
> 
> 
> Le 17 mai 2019 à 17:29, Tristan von Neumann  a 
> écrit :
> 
> > Dear collective experience,
> > 
> > 
> > while we're at it:
> > I finally have some small budget to buy a recording device.
> > 
> > 
> > What I want:
> > * use it at home to record lute music and other instruments
> > 
> > (* use it as a usb mic)
> > 
> > * take it with me and record in the park or pub or wherever a session
> > might come along
> > 
> > * I have linux, so at least it should be possible to extract the files
> > without removing the SD card
> > 
> > 
> > So far, the Zoom H2n seems like the best option. Some people say the
> > noise is quite high, others don't.
> > 
> > (Samples from youtube with guitar seem ok, but not really sparkling - I
> > know, this is not a replacement big membrane studio mic, but still...)
> > 
> > In Germany, the Zoom is available for around 150 Eurobucks.
> > 
> > 
> > What are the alternatives? (and keep in mind that it should be available
> > in Germany...)
> > 
> > 
> > Thanks!
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 
> 
 
 
 
 

[LUTE] Re: decent field recorder for lute

[Ralf Mattes]

 
I own a Zoom H4 (the old version) and am pretty happy with it. Did many concert 
recordings with it.
The actual microphone capsules are pretty good (way better than one would 
expect). If you need you can
plug in external mics - the device provides phantom power so you can use 
high-quality condenser mics.
The preamps are good for what the device is designed for (live recording). The 
are a bit noisy iff you need
to crank up the input gain. So I wouldn't recomend the device if you want to 
use it to record environmental
noise (wind in the willows et al.).
The device is a class-compliant USB audio device as well, so you can record 
directly into your DAW (and
it does work fine with Linux. That's what I use personally). Alternatively, you 
can mount the device as a 
storage device and copy files from/to it.
One thing to mention: all Zooms are very microphonic! Don't plan on redording 
holding the device in your
hand. I think the current price for a new-gen. Zoom H4 is below 200 Euro at 
Thomann.

HTH, RalfD


Am Freitag, 17. Mai 2019 17:29 CEST, Tristan von Neumann 
 schrieb: 
 
> Dear collective experience,
> 
> 
> while we're at it:
> I finally have some small budget to buy a recording device.
> 
> 
> What I want:
> * use it at home to record lute music and other instruments
> 
> (* use it as a usb mic)
> 
> * take it with me and record in the park or pub or wherever a session
> might come along
> 
> * I have linux, so at least it should be possible to extract the files
> without removing the SD card
> 
> 
> So far, the Zoom H2n seems like the best option. Some people say the
> noise is quite high, others don't.
> 
> (Samples from youtube with guitar seem ok, but not really sparkling - I
> know, this is not a replacement big membrane studio mic, but still...)
> 
> In Germany, the Zoom is available for around 150 Eurobucks.
> 
> 
> What are the alternatives? (and keep in mind that it should be available
> in Germany...)
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 

[LUTE] Re: weirdest passamezzi

[Ralf Mattes]

 Hmm, could you elaborate a bit on why you think those pieces are 'weird'?
To me that's all pretty much what I'd expect ...
BTW - I think there's a typo in those transcriptions - IIRC the library signum 
for Basel-Universotätsbibliothek
is 'CH-Bu' and not 'C-Bu' (yup, just cecked ...).

 Cheers, RalfD

Am Mittwoch, 15. Mai 2019 17:26 CEST, Tristan von Neumann 
 schrieb: 
 
> Playing through Wurstisen Vol. 5 is a lot of fun.
> 
> 
> Check out these curiosities. Funky Chords and Groovy Rhythms:
> 
> 
> http://gerbode.net/sources/C-Bu_university_library_basel/ms_F.IX.70_Wurstisen_lute_book/v5_passamezzos/pdf/011_passamezzo+saltarello_af.pdf
> 
> http://gerbode.net/sources/C-Bu_university_library_basel/ms_F.IX.70_Wurstisen_lute_book/v5_passamezzos/pdf/044_passamezzo_anon.pdf
> 
> http://gerbode.net/sources/C-Bu_university_library_basel/ms_F.IX.70_Wurstisen_lute_book/v5_passamezzos/pdf/047_passamezzo+saltarello_anon.pdf
> 
> http://gerbode.net/sources/C-Bu_university_library_basel/ms_F.IX.70_Wurstisen_lute_book/v5_passamezzos/pdf/072_passamezzo_anon.pdf
> 
> http://gerbode.net/sources/C-Bu_university_library_basel/ms_F.IX.70_Wurstisen_lute_book/v5_passamezzos/pdf/085_passamezzo+saltarello_anon.pdf
> 
> http://gerbode.net/sources/C-Bu_university_library_basel/ms_F.IX.70_Wurstisen_lute_book/v5_passamezzos/pdf/097_passamezzo_anon.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 

[LUTE] Re: Funky Chords in Lute Literature

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Sonntag, 12. Mai 2019 14:00 CEST, "Ralf Mattes"  
schrieb: 
 

> There are to Gesualdo pieces in Kapsberger's third book for chitarrone.

"Two" - off course.

  Cheers, RalfD

 





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[LUTE] Re: Funky Chords in Lute Literature

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Sonntag, 12. Mai 2019 02:45 CEST, guy_and_liz Smith  
schrieb: 
 
> No lute versions that I’m aware of, I’m afraid. I know them from the vocal 
> versions. I’d love to see some intabulations as well, but I suspect that they 
> would be quite difficult.

There are to Gesualdo pieces in Kapsberger's third book for chitarrone.

 Cheers, RalfD

 
 





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[LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Freitag, 10. Mai 2019 16:38 CEST, Tristan von Neumann 
 schrieb: 

> 
> .. and no one ever plays Francesco with plectrum-thimbles!!!
> 

That's not true. I experimented with finger picks during the 90th, using 
'ditali' after dall'Oglio (who describes
their use for the salterio) and IIRC Crawford Young did similar experiments. 
And I'm pretty shure that Lukas 
Henning has a whole episode on that topic in his me:mo YouTube channel.

 Cheers, RalfD


 
 
 





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[LUTE] Re: De Visee Corbetta

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Mittwoch, 08. Mai 2019 20:00 CEST, Monica Hall  
schrieb: 
 
>The relevant passage reads as follows. Feel free to correct the
>translation.
> 
>Recently the world-famous guitarist, Corbetta, who taught all the
>Potentates of Europe, came here [to Turin] from England.  But because
>he had the misfortune to break a fingernail (and with old folk these
>grow again very slowly) it was impossible for him to present himself at
>the festival with his consort, however much he wanted to.  Every
>foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 Thlr.
>and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not withholding
>anything from Signor Corbetta .
> 
>Corbetta complained bitterly that he had come from England with great
>difficulty,

In this case I'd translate "Schaden" with "expenses", but that's a detail.
 
>  and because he had invited people from Italy to come there
>[to Turin] to play in consort on his guarantee, he had to pay them
>afterwards out of his own pocket.

That's what I wrote - he had to pay them out of his own pocket.
You claimed: "Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket - 
that's just another myth."

Cheers, RalfD

 
 





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[LUTE] Re: De Visee

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Mittwoch, 08. Mai 2019 10:04 CEST, magnus andersson 
 schrieb: 
 
>Dear Monica, you ´re right-
>Francesco seems to have been the scheduled star musician of the
>evening. At
>the banquet, an ensemble consisting of lutes, theorboes, angeliques and
>guitars was
>heard, and Francesco was probably thought of as the icing on the
>cake...
>

No, that ensemble of plucked instuments describes a christmas service at the 
church St. Johann in the presence of
the king and his mother. Interestingly, Ebert remarks that such soft music 
isn't really approproate for churches and other
large spaces.

 Cheers, RalfD

 
 





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[LUTE] Re: De Visee

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Mittwoch, 08. Mai 2019 09:40 CEST, Monica Hall  
schrieb: 
 
> Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket - that's just 
> another myth. 

Sorry, but that's nit what Ebert is writing. To qoute:
"... und dieselbe nachmals aus seinem Beutel auszahlen müssen." 
"Dieselbe" here referes to 'Musique' (i.e. ensemble) comming from italy he 
ordered/booked and guaranteed (payment).
He lso complains that he had high costs ('Schaden') traveling from England.

> The relevant source states that  
> Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 Thlr. 
> and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not withholding anything 
> [from Signor Corbetta]. 

Nowhere does Ebert mention whether those 500 Thaler was given to each indiviual 
performer (highly unlikely) and not to
the ensemble.

 Cheers, Ralf Mattes
 





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[LUTE] Re: Codex carminum gallicorum, Vmhs 87, Uppsala

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Mittwoch, 16. Januar 2019 23:43 CET,  schrieb: 
 
> It's in RISM. You can search by shelfmark "Vok. mus. i hs. 87"

You can search for it online:

 https://opac.rism.info/index.php?id=15=1


Cheers, RalfD
 
 
 





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[LUTE] Re: "Spanish" tablature

[Ralf Mattes]

" This sketchy fragment was bound as an already unused piece of paper ..."
Shouldn't this read "an already used piece of paper"?

 Cheers, RalfD


 





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[LUTE] Re: [OT] Tonality in the Baroque

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Mittwoch, 09. Januar 2019 23:42 CET, Mark Probert  
schrieb: 
 

[LUTE] Re: [OT] Tonality in the Baroque

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Donnerstag, 10. Januar 2019 00:03 CET, howard posner 
 schrieb: 
 
> 
> > On Jan 9, 2019, at 2:42 PM, Mark Probert  wrote:
> > 
> > And I am, sad to say, ignorant of the actual meaning of "D la.sol.re". 
> 
> I believe it’s just a convention of combining varying names for one note: D 
> might be la, re or sol depending on which 
> hexachord you assume, so it became standard to use all three names,

The important part to understand is: notes where named using some kind of 
"coordinate" system. One "axis" is
what we today call "note name" (or "pitch class" if you are hipp :-), which was 
back then called "claves" (lit. the
name of the key). The other axis was the hexachord syllable (then called 
"voces"/"voice"). Pretty much the first thing
students learned was the name/voice of all existing notes. Knowing all the 
possible "voices"a note can be was very
important for proper "mutation" (i.e. knowing on what notes you can change from 
one hexachord into another).
So, in your example, a student singing a 'D la sol re' in the durum hexachord 
would know that he could change to the
natural hexachord by making a D->sol to D->re mutation. The nice thing about 
such a system is that those "voces" give
you a lot of extra context. Seeing an e-fa will tell you what notes can be 
found on both sides of that note. This is 
_very_ helpful for playing basso continuo, esp. from sparsely figured basses. 
For example, the 65-chord over a mi will
have a minor sixth and a diminished 5 while the 65 over a fa will have a 
perfect 5etc.
 
 > although, like a lot of Fux’s book, it was very old fashioned in 1704.

??? Whut? That system was widely used well into the 19th (!sic) century. It's 
just that a lot of researches tend to skip the
early chapters of contemporary manuals. Just have a look at some of the most 
important instruction manuals and how much (expensive!) space they dedicate top 
proper solmization teaching.

 Cheers, RalfD
 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 

[LUTE] Re: The origins of tablature

[Ralf Mattes]

 
A few remarks:

 -  saying that Paumann was "credited for having invented tablature" is 
slightly missleading.
Virdung reports that he invented german lute tablature (which is utterly 
unuseable for 
playing keyboard). German lute tablature is indeed very convenient to 
read/dictate to
someone else.
 -  "music for keyboard was NOT notated in tablature."  As others have already 
remarked, keyboard
music was notated in tablature - but what easily gets neglected is the fact 
that 16th century keyboard
music was only notated in tablature, only we don't recoginize it as such 
since the italian keyboard tablature
evolved into modern scores.

BTW, nice intro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl1m7bOoI7I

 Cheers, RalfD

Am Sonntag, 07. Oktober 2018 23:51 CEST, jslute  schrieb: 
 
>Ron, Rainer and All,
> 
> Cabezon's works were notated in tablature. Like Paumann, he was blind.
>His works were advertised as also playable on harp or vihuela.
>  credited for having invented tablature
>Jim Stimson
> 
>Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
> 
> Original message 
>From: Ron Andrico 
>Date: 10/7/18 2:18 PM (GMT-05:00)
>To: Lute net +
>Subject: [LUTE] Re: The origins of tablature
> 
>   Rainer:
>   Like most who examine the origins of tablature, you overlooked the
>fact
>   that Conrad Paumann, credited for having invented tablature, was
>   primarily a keyboardist.  My understanding is that the application
>   tablature to the lute was secondary.  And the purpose for tablature
>was
>   not so that lutenists could play polyphonic music (they already did
>   that from memory), but so that a full score of music could be
>condensed
>   from several partbooks onto one staff and that the musical
>information
>   could be more easily accessed.  When we view tablature as a
>simplified
>   way of notating music solely for performance, we undermine the
>   usefulness of tablature as a reservoir of information that can only
>be
>   effectively realized by a musician who possesses a firm grasp on
>   performing polyphonic music with a clear sense of line.  This is not
>a
>   theory but a fact.  Bach used tablature when he ran out of space at
>the
>   bottom of the page.
>   RA
> __
>   From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on
>behalf
>   of Rainer 
>   Sent: Sunday, October 7, 2018 4:58 PM
>   To: Lute net
>   Subject: [LUTE] The origins of tablature
>   Dear lute netters,
>   I have often asked myselfe why lute tablature was invented.
>   The "classical" answer seems to be because lutenists started to play
>   polyphonic music (or at least music with more than one voice).
>   This seems to be a very poor argument since - apart from German
>organ
>   tablature - music for keyboard was NOT notated in tablature.
>   Any ideas anybody?
>   Rainer
>   I seem to remember that MANY years ago somebody claimed to have
>found
>   14th century French lute tablature which was refuted soon.
>   But hasn't this been discussed again recently?
>   Somewhere else (where?) somebody mentioned that tablature may have
>been
>   used much earlier in Arabian countries.
>   To get on or off this list see list information at
>   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>   --
>References
>   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
 
 
 
 

[LUTE] Re: Sorry airywave = Airyware tuner

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Montag, 24. September 2018 20:55 CEST, Anthony Hind 
 schrieb: 
 
>Dear lutenists
> 
> I made a slip with the name of the tuner app, it is Airyware tuner
>and not Airywave tuner (perhaps I felt Airywave was a better name.
> 
>Apologies for any time spent searching,

Thank's for pointing out this app. I haven't come across it - it looks very 
promising
(even so the lute presets, listing as 13 string etc. are a bit silly. And it's 
clumsy to have
to select from a long list of instruments).

 Cheers, RalfD
 
>Regards
> 
>Anthony
>[1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
>--
> 
> References
> 
>1. https://yho.com/footer0
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 

[LUTE] Re: intabulations

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Sonntag, 29. Juli 2018 16:43 CEST, Ed Durbrow  schrieb: 
 
> I’m giving a talk on the lute next week and I was searching for a statistic 
> about how much of the Renaissance lute repertoire consist of intabulations. 
> Also, I am looking for statistics (estimates really) of how many tabs there 
> are and could have been and how many songs with in tabulation there are. I’ve 
> heard that outside of the piano and possibly violin there is more lute music 
> than for any other instrument. I want to back that up. If you could point me 
> to some research or quotes somewhere on the Internet, I would be much obliged.

Your talk is in one week? Sounds like:

 https://i.redd.it/n8i4oh04h4cz.jpg

;-)

More serious: there can't be any such data - not only did only a rather small 
sample of music survive the
turmoils of time, we have no idea how representative of the music played back 
then our surviving material is.
The Capirola lute book explicitly admits that it tries to twist natural 
selection ;-)
Were intabulations really that popular, or were they a good market item because 
there production was so
time-consuming (and hence one would rather buy those and save time instead of 
buying dances which could
be reproduced after some careful listening).
I've often heard claims about the volume of lute music, but I never found some 
convincing data. I guess it's 
mostly gut-feeling of lute players (who often don't know or neglect the fast 
amount of organ intabulations).

Have fun with your lecture,

 Cheers, RalfD

> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Ed Durbrow
> Saitama, Japan
> http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
> https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
> http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 

[LUTE] Re: chord names

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Donnerstag, 26. Juli 2018 20:44 CEST, Tristan von Neumann 
 schrieb: 
 
> Musicians and Music Theorists are rarely one and the same person :)

Sorry, but that's the biggest bulls**t I've ever heard!

Tinctoris (choir master, composer and most likely a singer)?
Gafurius (composer, maestro di capella at the Milan cathedral)  - not a 
musician?
Dowland (rumors say he wrote some lute music) - only known for his theoretical 
works (Micrologus)?
Muffat the Elder (author of one of the best figured bass treaties) - never 
wrote (and played) music?
J. B. Samber (author of an impressive church organist method) - not an organist 
at the Salzburg cathedral?
Mattheson ("Wunderkind" singing and playing organ on a preofessional level at 
age 9, worked as an opera singer,
first as a soprano, later as a tenor) - not a musician?
Gasparini - C.P.E. Bach etc.  oh well.
 
> It is not necessary to name or classify anything while making music -
> Music Theory is mostly after the fact.

The kind of music theory you probly talk about [1] simply didn't exist during 
the time period we disuss here.
Most (if not all) of the before-mentioned authors would probably describe their 
work as
a method/guide in student learning to produce (better) music. Naming things can 
be extremly helpful 
in teaching. Just have a look at the some of the works titles. Samber's 
'Manuductio ad Organum' litteraly means
'guiding (the students) hands during organ playing' (and, C.P.E. writes, this 
is exactly what old Bach did).
 
> Theory is taught, but novelties appear regardless - see Monteverdi and 
> Artusi.

And yet, Monteverdi took great care to provide a "theoretical" framework for 
his novelty.
The 'seconda prattica' discussion is _not_ one of 'theory' vs. 'la-la creative 
freedom'. It's 
about two musicians having (often amazingly subtle) differences in what they 
consider aesthetically
pleasing (or, maybe even over the question of whether music always has to be 
aesthetically pleasing).

 Cheers, RalfD

[1] which in english would probably be called musicology. No, they are not the 
same.

> Am 26.07.2018 um 19:11 schrieb Leonard Williams:
> > How would musicians like Dowland or Johnson have named their
> > chords?  Were they thinking in chord progressions, modalities,
> > incidental chords arising in polyphonic cadences?  I guess this is a
> > question of music theory evolution.
> > Leonard
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Leonard Williams 
> > To: lute 
> > Sent: Wed, Jul 25, 2018 8:54 am
> > Subject: [LUTE] chord names
> > As chordal music (as opposed to polyphonic) became more prevalent,
> > and many modes became history, how were chords named? G maj, A min,
> > ...? Tonic, dominant, etc? When did this start?
> > Just curious.
> > Regards,
> > Leonard Williams
> > --
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 
> > --
> > 
> > References
> > 
> > 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
 
 
 
 

[LUTE] Re: tab program

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Donnerstag, 26. Juli 2018 21:04 CEST, wayne lute  
schrieb: 

  I use a programmers editor like vim or emacs that doesn’t make the switch.

Jay! Emacs rulez! ;-)

 Cheers, RalfD 
 

 
 





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[LUTE] Re: Linear algebra

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Sonntag, 13. Mai 2018 21:44 CEST, Arto Wikla  
schrieb: 
 
> Tiny comment: f#-gb, d#-eb, c#-db, etc. are not octaves! ;-)

To that I can only answer with that famous quote from Thomas Binkley: "Details!"

 ;-)

 Cheers, RalfD






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[LUTE] Re: Missing link?

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Sonntag, 13. Mai 2018 20:43 CEST, Ron Andrico  
schrieb: 
 
>Ralf and Rainer, I believe you are in agreement.  Octaves, fourths and
>fifths are pure and other intervals are an approximation.

No, that's not what I (or Rainer) said. And it's wrong: Octaves are alway pure 
in all (western) tuning
systems. Fifth/forth can be pure but then will be incomensurable with octaves 
(i.e. you can't stack
fifth/forth and ever end up with pure octaves. As a matter of fact no pure 
intervals are comensurable.
That IS a mathematic fact).

 Cheers, RalfD







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[LUTE] Re: Missing link?

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Sonntag, 13. Mai 2018 19:33 CEST, Rainer  
schrieb: 
 
> I am sorry, this is simply wrong.
> I have done the necessary calculations many years ago.
> 
> If you assume that all unisons and all octaves are pure you have one chance 
> only: Equal temperament.
> Believe me, Discussing mathematical facts is wasted time.

Sorry, but unless I'm missing some hidden joke: your math is wrong. In every 
(western) tuning system
octaves are pure (i.e. have a frequency ration od 1:2). Unisons by definition 
cannot be anything but pure.
In what tuning system would a C not be a equal to a C?

Cheers, RalfD






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[LUTE] Re: The article by Annette Otterstedt about David Dolata's book about tuning

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Sonntag, 13. Mai 2018 20:15 CEST, Ron Andrico  
schrieb: 
 
>Apart from acceptable use such as short quotes that attribute the
>author and the source, the conventional approach is to ask the author's
>permission.  Most authors are pleased for the citations and to
>cooperate in making their work available, particularly to such a
>distinguished and civil group.

Unless the publishing company (Oxford Univeristy Press) doesn't allow this - 
and I doubt that
they would be happy about the widespread circulation of recently published 
material. Even content
aggregators like jstor et al. aren't allowed to publish recent content.

>You may be right, but I can always claim that my computer was hacked.
>  Wayne

Hmm, but you distribute material downloaded by (according to the watermark) a 
certain 'John Coster'.
So he violated OUP's terms of use. 

 Cheers, RalfD





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[LUTE] Re: Missing link?

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Sonntag, 13. Mai 2018 19:18 CEST, Martin Shepherd  
schrieb: 
 
> Given the tone of the debate so far, I didn't want to get mixed up in it 
> (I still don't), but I have to say that in any conceivable temperament 
> the unisons and octaves will be pure.

;-) 

I was just about to write the same - but unisons/octaves don't generate scales 
- you can't
combine them to reach new pitches. I guess Rainer was refering to Stephan's 
original 
statement which includes _setting frets_ and that doesn't work unless you use 
equal temprament.

 Cheers, RalfD
 
> 
> M
> 
> On 13/05/2018 19:11, Rainer wrote:
> > On 13.05.2018 17:03, stephan.olbertz wrote:
> >>     I don't understand how the practical side of lute temperaments would
> >>     depent on calculating anything. You can just set a fourth fret 
> >> you like
> >>     and set all other frets by ear via unisons and octaves. No need to
> >>     count beats either.
> >
> > You cannot tune in any temperament except equal temperament by unisons 
> > and octaves.
> >
> > This can be shown with a little trivial linear algebra.
> >
> > Rainer
> >
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> 
> 
 
 
 
 

[LUTE] Re: Foliation in van Eyck's books - somewhat off topic

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Sonntag, 22. April 2018 17:44 CEST, David van Ooijen 
 schrieb: 
 
>What I understood from the discussion is that recto and verso can be
>ambiguous, as in scripts that read right to left the order is reversed
>and scrolls open up yet another can of worms. So some scholars opt for
>a and b instead. The use of a and b in Van Baak Grifiioen is clear when
>you open a page in the facsimile: left is a, right is b.
>David

Well, one benefit of the folio (recto/verso) notation is  that a the two 
pysically stay together,
even if the manuscript pages get out of order (which happens more often 
than one would
expect). Also, for our field of interest in this mailing list, the problem with 
different writing directions
is rather theoretical. And let's not forget that the folio system is the one 
used by the creators of 
those books/manuscripts (so the originsl toc most likely uses it).
One benefit of the 'opening' system is that a lot of music manuscripts are 
aranged in openings, so
pieces tend to stay on one opening.

 Cheers, RalfD

 
 





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[LUTE] Re: Newberry Library VAULT Case MS 7Q 5]

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Sonntag, 22. April 2018 12:13 CEST, Rainer  
schrieb: 
 
Thank's, but Andeas Schlegel  was faster and posted this on thurseday.

 Cheers, RalfD

> http://collections.carli.illinois.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/nby_music/id/4729
> 
> Rainer
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 

[LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Mittwoch, 11. April 2018 22:36 CEST, Jurgen Frenz 
 schrieb: 
 
>Hello there,
> 
>another thread on this list motivated me to ask - the title of
>Valderrabano's publication "Silva de Sirenas" renders if latin was the
>source language "Arctic Forest" which I would find hard to believe and
>_nothing_ when setting Google translate to Spanish as source.
> 
>artic google.png
> 
>Hence my suspicion that 500 year old Spanish was using words
>differently. But what does the title mean in English (German/French)
>today? Would anybody know?

Pretty much _every_ 500 year old language used words differenty :-)
Even 150 year is more than enough to change the meaning of words.
As for Valderrabano: I'd translate that as 'forrest of the sirens' i.e. those
mythological creatures that lured sailors into dangerous cliffs by means
of their beautiful singing.

 HTH RalfD



 
 
 





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[LUTE] Re: [meta] list policy [was] Re: Latest book in viel ton outside Italy

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Dienstag, 10. April 2018 12:09 CEST, "Ralf Mattes" <r.mat...@mh-freiburg.de> 
schrieb: 
 
  
> Am Dienstag, 10. April 2018 11:50 CEST, Mathias Rösel 
> <mathias.roe...@t-online.de> schrieb: 
>  
> > Martyn,
> > Thank you for reminding us what's relevant (and what not). May I add that I 
> > find replying merely to the list more helpful than replying to all. It may 
> > help reducing the number of messages in everybody's inbox.
> > MathiasMathias Rösel <mathias.roe...@t-online.de>
> 

Indeed, but the most elegant way to do this would be for the mailing list to 
set proper reply-to header.
IMHO in our times a (subscription only) mailing list should even send out the 
OP's mail address in the
 from header thus protecting the poster's privacy.
 
  Cheers, RalfD
  
 
 
 
 





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[LUTE] Re: Latest book in viel ton outside Italy

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Montag, 09. April 2018 16:44 CEST, Rainer  
schrieb: 
 
> Dear lute netters,
> 
> I have often wondered what the latest book in vieil ton published outside 
> Italy is.
> 
> As a starting point I offer:
> 
> 
> Louys de Moy, LE Petit Boucquet,  …, 1631

Way too early!
There's a manuscript transcription (french!) of Zarlino in BN/Paris with all 
counterpoint examples intabulated in biel ton.
IIRC that's from the end of the 17th/early 18th century. 

 Cheers, RalfD

> 
> Rainer
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 

[LUTE] Re: While speaking about Hans

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Samstag, 17. Februar 2018 15:09 CET, "G. C." <kalei...@gmail.com> schrieb: 
 
>For the new(sidler)comers, let me remind you of this old thread
>When you read this: (It couldn't have been better said!)

Which old thread? Subject? Message ID?

>You get this:
>[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNAt9v_WfrQ

Are you serious? Since Perter Päffgen's dissertation (published 1976, !sic)
it's clear that that cacophonic crap is a result of a rather ridiculous 
transcription 
error missreading the scordatura instructions.
That's like playing Bieber's Rosenkranz Sonatas in stnadard tuning and then
pointing out the "remarkably contemporary" sonorities 

 Cheers, Ralf Mattes







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[LUTE] Re: German song questions

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Donnerstag, 08. Februar 2018 12:11 CET, "Ralf Mattes" <r...@mh-freiburg.de> 
schrieb: 
  
> 
> > song is that young. Of course, if Böhme's apparatus  is correct his version 
> > is from the 18th century.
> 

 Argh, typo. Werlin is of course first half of 17th century.
  
 Cheers, RalfD

 
 
 





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[LUTE] Re: German song questions

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Donnerstag, 08. Februar 2018 12:11 CET, "Ralf Mattes" <r...@mh-freiburg.de> 
schrieb: 
 

> song is that young. Of course, if Böhme's apparatus  is correct his version 
> is from the 18th century.

Argh, typo. Werlin is of course first half of 17th century.
 
Cheers, RalfD

 
 
 





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[LUTE] Re: German song questions

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Donnerstag, 08. Februar 2018 11:39 CET, Rainer  
schrieb: 
 
> Crabaten should be Kroaten (Croatians)

More specific, kroatian mercenaries. But that would be an awfully early 
apearance. They fought
for the emperor during the 30 year war (from ~1620). 
There _might_ have been kroatian soldiers during the first siege of Vienna 
1529, but I doubt the
song is that young. Of course, if Böhme's apparatus  is correct his version is 
from the 18th century.
Those text often have quite some variance and often where rewritten and adapted.

Cheers, RalfD






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[LUTE] Re: German song questions

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Donnerstag, 08. Februar 2018 10:29 CET, Joachim Lüdtke 
 schrieb: 
 
> Dear Robert, dear Rainer,
> 
> original sources can (sometimes) be found by looking into Norbert Böker-Heil 
> et al. (eds.); "Das Tenorlied". 3 Vols Kassel etc. 1979 - 1986.

That would be the first place to look, haven't access to it right now, 
unfortunately.
 
> This is a source catalogue of songbooks both manuscript and printed from 1450 
> to 1580. Vol. 3 contains the indexes. "Vnser magt kan ausz der massen"  = 
> Songbook printed by Egenolff in Frankfurt, [1535], nr. 15 (anon.).

Do you happen to know in which Egenolff print this is suppoed to be? I'm 
looking at the Gassenhawerlin and 
Reuterliedlin from 1535 and can' t find it in neither.

> If you have access to "Denkmäler der Tonkunst in Oesterreich", you may find 
> texts to the intavolations in the critical commentary to Koczirz's edition of 
> Newsidler, Judenkunig & Co. in Vol. 37  (I don't have this at hand, so: just 
> an idea).
> 
> The Deutsche Volksliederarchiv in Freiburg may also be helpful ...

Hmm, I had mixed results last time I visited (~20 years ago). Also the changed 
their focus (now called 
"Zentrum für Populäre Kultur und Musik") and, unfortunately, their beatiful 
location. BTW, their online
database (http://www.liederlexikon.de/) doesn't list the song.

 Cheers, RalfD

 
 
 





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[LUTE] Re: German song questions

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Donnerstag, 08. Februar 2018 10:43 CET, Rainer <rads.bera_g...@t-online.de> 
schrieb: 
 


> 
> Strange - I find it on page 388.
> 

Jup, same over here (old photocopy I did years ago).

BTW, as impressive[1 as Böhme is - take everything from this book with a grain 
of salt, or better
quite a substantial pinch of salt ...

 Cheers, Ralf Mattes

[1] I'm always impressed by the amount of work researchers from that time where 
able to do
(Böhme, the Grimm brothers, Tobler-Lomatzsch, Arnoldt etc.)
 
 
 





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[LUTE] Re: German song questions

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Donnerstag, 08. Februar 2018 10:39 CET, "b...@symbol4.de" <b...@symbol4.de> 
schrieb: 
 
>Here
>https://books.google.de/books/about/Altdeutsches_Liederbuch.html?id=rgY
>JAQAAMAAJ_esc=y
> 

Yes, was just about to mention this as well. Please don't fall prey to Google's 
data grabing.
There's no need to "sign in"  to access the book via Google's store, there is a 
(well hidden)
download link when you click on the 'cagwheel'-Menu on the right side of the 
page.

 HTH Ralf Mattes

 





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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Looking for a dissertation about the Bach BWV995

[Ralf Mattes]

Hello Luca, 

Why not contact the author?
Last thing I hear he's the director of Chesa Planta ( 
http://www.chesaplanta.ch), an Engadin cultural foundation
(the library holds two 16th century lute manuscripts).
 
 HTH Ralf Mattes






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[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Mittwoch, 31. Januar 2018 11:19 CET, "G. C." <kalei...@gmail.com> schrieb: 
 
>Yes, 25 pounds for a "free download" :D

Well, technically speaking, you are free to download (and pay!) or not ;-)

In such moments I'm glad to live in a country where libraries still remember 
what their purpose is.
BTW, looks like Munich just finished digitizing all their tablature manuscripts.

 Cheers, Ralf Mattes






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[LUTE] Re: I'm confused.

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Haven't played from Doni for a while but I always assumed that that the minuet 
and some other pieces 
are (much) later additions to the original manuscript. I never looked at the 
original, so I can't judge
the scribal situation but judging by stile some of the pieces are definitely 
beginning 18th century.

 Cheers, Ralf Mattes


 
 
 
 





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[LUTE] Re: Ballard 1614

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Donnerstag, 11. Januar 2018 21:41 CET, Nancy Carlin 
 schrieb: 
 
> About that download button - can you tell those of us who don't read 
> Russian, how to do this?

I've put up a download link of a combined version here:

 https://glarean.mh-freiburg.de/seafile/d/2025ae20089942bd90aa/

Note: this link will be up for the next 10 days.

 Cheers, RalfD







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[LUTE] Re: Chromatic lute works

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Samstag, 16. Dezember 2017 23:49 CET, "G. C." <kalei...@gmail.com> schrieb: 
 
>And lets not forget
> 
> [1]FantasÃa que contrahaze la harpa en la manera de Ludovico

That's not a chromatic piece at all - where do you see a chromatic step?

 Cheers, Ralf Mattes

> 
>G.
> 
>--
> 
> References
> 
>1. https://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg32717.html
> 
> 
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[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Dienstag, 12. Dezember 2017 10:17 CET, Martin Shepherd 
<mar...@luteshop.co.uk> schrieb: 
 
> It just occurred to me that the "English" theorbo as described by Mace 
> had double basses.  I have no experience of trying to reconstruct this 
> instrument, but some people do - David Van Edwards made one for Lynda 
> Sayce, there must be others -  I wonder if they have any insights?

But didn't these instruments have bass strings of increasing length (like the 
so-called
flemish lutes). So the 7th chourse would not have the full extention length.

 Cheers, Ralf Mattes







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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Denis Gaultier

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Sonntag, 10. Dezember 2017 16:11 CET, "G. C." <kalei...@gmail.com> schrieb: 
 
>But then again, that index seems only to be up to 1999!

I'm pretty sure I played from that edition, most likely before mid90, maybe 
even late
80th. It's an edition of the pieces in old tuning from Basel University Library 
(and maybe
others as well, I don't remember). All very nice and ideomatic music, IIRC.

 Cheers, Ralf Mattes



 
 
 





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[LUTE] Re: Stringing Question (German Lute)

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Freitag, 08. Dezember 2017 13:26 CET, Markus Lutz  
schrieb: 
 
> The last professional mandora player (also the last lute player) 
> probably had been Johann Christian Gottlieb Scheidler, who was born on 
> the 26.11.1747 (260 years ago) in Aken (Elbe) and died on the 15th 
> August 1829 in Mainz. He was son of the lutenist and soldier Johann 
> Reinhard Scheideler.
> But probably he didn't play after around 1815, as he was quite ill then.

I think we shouldn'T focus too much on labels like 'the last ...' 
It's pretty clea that instruments of the lute family slowly disapeared from the
public music live. But that says little about the instrument's continued use in
private circles. Doesn't E.T.A. Hoffmann mention the lute in 'Kater Murr'?
(the same goes for the viola da gamba in England an Germany. One of
my friends owns a viola da gamba d'amore that was probably built ~1820-30
http://ekkehardweber.de/amore_text_2.html).
Also telling: Molitor, when writing about the lute, states that the instruments
appearance should be common to most readers (he's writing about the 
baroque lute in d-minor tuning).

Cheers, RalfD
  

 
 
 





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[LUTE] Re: Stringing Question (German Lute)

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Freitag, 08. Dezember 2017 10:50 CET, Martyn Hodgson 
<hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> schrieb: 
 
>These instruments were developed in the late nineteenth century as a
>lute shaped guitar to give a sort of historical depth to the late
>romantic notion of players being like early travelling minstrels and
>the like. 


Is there any reliable evidence for this?

>   Accordingly string your instrument like a nineteenth century
>guitar ie gut for strings one to three and overwound for the rest.
>There's also some evidence that they may have a link to the historical
>mandora/gallichon: but this is more tenuous since the last recorded
>professional mandora player died around 1810 - but it's possible the
>instrument continued to be played by amateurs 

I think there's ample evidence for this - have a look at the elaborate preface 
to
Simon Molitor's 'Grosse Sonate für die Guitare allein' (btw. an amazing source
for the researcher of lute ... that man had an incredible knowledge of the
early history of lute). The footnote on page 10 talks about the bad habit of
playing with nails (to imitate the sound of metal strings). Page 11 briefly 
mentions
why lute and mandor (his spelling) went out of  favour (light compositions, 
constant
arpegiation of 'rule-less' chords, ... lack of compsition).
In the footnote on the same pages Molitor shows a strong preference for 
instruments
with a lute body (and condems the use of bridge pins and states that tied frets 
will
prodce better tone ...). Reading that preface it almost sounds like a lute 
player
being forced to play the guitar ;-)

>. and contributed to the
>development of the wandervogel instrument.

We really should stop calling this instrument 'Wandervogellauten'. Even so 
_some_
mebers of the Wandervogel movement did play such instruments the instrument 
existed long before that movement started and was widely used in Germany and
Austria. 

 Cheers, Ralf Mattes


>MH
>>> Betreff: [LUTE] Stringing Question (German Lute)
>>> Datum: 2017-11-30T19:58:23+0100
>>> Von: "Tristan von Neumann" <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
>>> An: "lutelist Net" <[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>>
>>> Hi there,
>>>
>>> I'm currently repairing my old German Lute (6x1, 62cm), previously
>>> decorative only. Some ribs have come apart. I managed one connection
>>> already.
>>> I noticed that it has very thin ribs (about 1-1.5mm), however the
>>> soundboard is quite thick judging at the rose (about 4-5mm).
>>> There is one leftover string attached on the 4th course, it seems
>>> contemporary and is wound metal.
>>> The lute has a one piece carved pegbox with ornamented back plate
>and
>>> flowerhead, and mechanical pegs. The fingerboard has metal frets
>with
>>> arches in between. The strings are attached with wooden pins into
>holes
>>> in the bridge.
>>> It seems about 100 years old. No maker's plate is visible inside the
>bowl.
>>> After having it in ok condition I plan to string it -- what would
>you
>>> suggest? Metal or nylon (in the latter case I'll use my fishing
>line)?
>>> Is there a way to tell if it was metal or gut strung?
>>> Personally I would prefer metal for more cittern-like sound, unless
>>> anyone advises strongly against it.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Tristan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>
> 
>Virus-free. [4]www.avast.com
> 
>--
> 
> References
> 
>Visible links
>1. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
>2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>4. 
> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail
> 
>Hidden links:
>6. 
> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail
>7. 
> file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L2927-8581TMP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2
> 
 
 
 
 

[LUTE] Re: Vatican Library

[Ralf Mattes]

Forward because of wrong sender ...
 
 
Am Freitag, 24. November 2017 15:53 CET, Ron Andrico  
schrieb: 
 
>David Smith may be a wizard with technology but I believe he has to
>laboriously download each page and compile a pdf for general use.  This
>is a very time-consuming process, particularly when downloading from
>the Vatican library since one must recite an Ave Maria and Pater Noster
>for each page.

No, the whole point of being able to program is to not have to do things in 
person.
To download all images, open a terminal and do:

$ mkdir Barberini
$ cd Barberini
$ for i in $(seq -f '%04g' 0 44); do wget  -O $i.jpg 
https://digi.vatlib.it/pub/digit/MSS_Barb.lat.4145/iiif/Barb.lat.4145_$i.jp2/full/910,/0/native.jpg;
 sleep 2; done

That's all (Mac users might need to 'brew install wget' or adapt the script to 
use curl instead. Windows user are ... poor lost souls ;-)
Combining the the reulting JPEG-Images into a Pdf file is left as an exercise 
to the reader ...

BUT: this will still leave you with a pile of ridiciously low quality, low 
resolution  images with strange copyright
banners all over the page (2/3 of the page being blank).

 Cheers, RalfD

>Seriously, David may or may not have the time or inclination to produce
>a complete pdf for this digitized manuscript, but he is to be roundly
>applauded for all the work he has done and made available so far.>RA
>  __
> 
>From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf
>of Jean-Marie Poirier 
>Sent: Friday, November 24, 2017 1:00 PM
>To: 'Lute List'
>Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vatican Library
> 
>..David Smith, maybe, who seems to be a wizard for downloading whole
>files ??? ;-)
>Jean-Marie
>--
> 
>>Thank you Magnus !
>>No way the whole ms. can be downloaded except page by page ?
>>
>>Best,
>>Jean-Marie
>>
>>
>>--
>>
>>>   Dear Lute friends,
>>>   I don ´t know whether this is common knowledge already,>>>   but 
> I was very happy to see that the Vatican has digitized many
>>>   manuscripts-
>>>   among them Barberini lat. 4145, 4177.
>>>   [1]https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Barb.lat.4145
>>>   [2]https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Barb.lat.4177
>>>   Happy plucking and strumming,
>>>   Magnus
>>>
>>>   --
>>>
>>>References
>>>
>>>   1. [1]https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Barb.lat.4145
>>>   2. [2]https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Barb.lat.4177
>>>
>>>
>>>To get on or off this list see list information at
>>>[3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>[4]Lute Mail list technical information
>www.cs.dartmouth.edu
>How do I get on the lute mail list? To get on the mail list, send email
>with a Subject: of "subscribe" to lute-requ...@cs.dartmouth.edu and
>your name will be added to ...
>>
>>
> 
>--
> 
> References
> 
>1. https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Barb.lat.4145
>2. https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Barb.lat.4177
>3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
 
 
 
 

 
 
 

 

[LUTE] Re: Barbella's little cross

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Donnerstag, 28. September 2017 07:36 CEST, howard posner 
<howardpos...@ca.rr.com> schrieb: 
 
> 
> > On Sep 26, 2017, at 12:57 PM, Stewart McCoy <lu...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> > 
> > The cross cannot
> >   mean a sharp ( # ), because there are plenty of those elsewhere in the
> >   piece. Please can anyone explain what the little cross means?
> 
> It could mean the printer ran out of #’s in his font.  

Serioius? The printer used moveable type in the late 18. century?

Cheers, Ralf Mattes


 
 
 





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[LUTE] Re: Shorter emails

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Mittwoch, 06. September 2017 11:43 CEST, howard posner 
<howardpos...@ca.rr.com> schrieb: 
 
> And while we’re on protocol, if you hit “reply all” and then eliminate all 
> the addresses other than the list’s, the other listers don’t get your message 
> more than once.

That problem is easy to solve: the list admin would have to configure the list 
to only send out the
list mail address in the reply-to header. Not only would this prevent double 
mails, it would also
hide the original sender's mail address which, in times of spam harvesters,  
some might find good 
to do.

 Cheers, Ralf Mattes
  
 





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[LUTE] Re: Shorter emails

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Mittwoch, 06. September 2017 10:32 CEST, Matthew Daillie 
<dail...@club-internet.fr> schrieb: 
 
> Isn't there a cost issue too regarding server storage space?

Given the low price of todays harddisks that price is neglectible.
But there _is_ a cost factor: I used to read my mail on my cellphone and,
at least over here, most cellphone providers do either charge by volume
or limit traffic (with rather high upgrade prices). A few years ago, being 
rather
anoyed by spurious quoting, I did run a (rather unscientific) test and ended up
with a signal/noise ration between 1/5 and 1/10. Quoting an entire email thread 
only to add "yeah, that's funny" is borderline rude.

This is not a technical issue: not removing quoted text is lazyness on the side 
of the 
sender that results in extra effort for the receiver. Is the quoted text 
relevant to the answer?
Does one have to scroll through all of it and search for important information? 
If not,
why did the sender leave it in?

Just my 0.2$

  Ralf Mattes

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?






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[LUTE] Re: Building a lute - decision

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Donnerstag, 31. August 2017 18:51 CEST, Martyn Hodgson 
 schrieb: 
 
>Thanks Mathias, See my reply to Ralf which covers some of these points.

??? Did I miss something. Your reply never made it to me.

>But to amplify about the the name: I think the point is where
>did Janowka's names (ie Galizona, or Colachon) themselves spring from
>in the first place? In lieu of other evidence, I'm  still of the view
>of the Italian colascione link.  I don't of course mean that the
>Bohemian instrument developed from the Italian instrument, merely that
>it provided inspiration for the name as also being a long (very long
>for the colascioneinstrument) necked lute with many fewer strings than
>the contemporary lute

Do we really know much about the colaschione's origins? 

 Cheers, RalfD





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[LUTE] Re: Building a lute - decision

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Donnerstag, 31. August 2017 17:57 CEST, Mathias Rösel 
<mathias.roe...@t-online.de> schrieb: 
 
>The gallichon (numerous other cognates) is an instrument invented in
>Bohemia around 1660 to take advantage of the newly invented overwound
>strings - it became popular in central Europe and Northern German
>states. The earlier version was generally tuned with the first course
>at a (top line of bass clef) with six strings tuned in intervals below
>like the modern guitar. 
> 
> Not a e B G D C? (Talbot; Janowka)
> 
>No doubt the name came from a germanic language
>corruption of  the existing 3 and 4 string Italian colascione

I strongly doubt that theory. There is no realistic phonetic path from
colascione to gallichon. Especially the 'i' in gallichon can't be explained.

It could be a contraction/merge of the two names given by Janowka.

Also, 1660 sounds rather early for overwound strings. 

Cheers, Ralf Mattes





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[LUTE] Re: Dance Origin from Munich Ms. 1512

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Donnerstag, 31. August 2017 09:26 CEST, Tristan von Neumann 
<tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> schrieb: 
 
> Huh? This is strange. It's clear as day French tabs for me.

Probably a guitar player who never saw "real" lute tablature ;-)
Sarge also provides midi file for the impatient ...

Cheers, Ralf Mattes





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[LUTE] Re: Battle pieces

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Samstag, 19. August 2017 11:59 CEST, "Jean-Marie Poirier" 
<jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr> schrieb: 
 
> THis one : 
> https://independent.academia.edu/IlLiutoRivistadellaSociet%C3%A0delLiuto

Which links to a one-page article by di Gian Luca Lastraioli at 
https://www.academia.edu/33392124/GIAN_LUCA_LASTRAIOLI_La_Battaglia_per_Liuto_I_pp._17-22

.. and a lot of links to pdfs of the title page and table of contents of 'Il 
Liuto'. Are you saying that
you can see more of the actual content?

Cheers, RalfD

> Best,
> 
> Jean-Marie
>  
> 
> 
> 
> --
>  
> > 
> >Am Mittwoch, 16. August 2017 16:19 CEST, "Jean-Marie Poirier" 
> ><jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr> schrieb: 
> > 
> >> Sorry, not 8 but 13 articles on Battaglie per liuto, from 2010 to 2016, 
> >> can be found at this link !
> >> 
> >> Jean-Marie
> >> 
> >
> >
> >Hmm, what link?
> >
> >> >
> >> >8 of his articles (from 2010 to 2014) can be read on Academia here : 
> >> >https://independent.academia.edu/IlLiutoRivistadellaSociet%C3%A0delLiuto
> >
> >This one only links to a collection of table-of-contents ...
> >
> >Cheers, Ralf Mattes
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >To get on or off this list see list information at
> >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 
 
 
 

[LUTE] Re: Battle pieces

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Mittwoch, 16. August 2017 16:19 CEST, "Jean-Marie Poirier" 
<jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr> schrieb: 
 
> Sorry, not 8 but 13 articles on Battaglie per liuto, from 2010 to 2016, can 
> be found at this link !
> 
> Jean-Marie
> 


Hmm, what link?

> >
> >8 of his articles (from 2010 to 2014) can be read on Academia here : 
> >https://independent.academia.edu/IlLiutoRivistadellaSociet%C3%A0delLiuto

This one only links to a collection of table-of-contents ...

Cheers, Ralf Mattes






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[LUTE] Re: Better UNICODE Test �� �� ���� �� ����

[Ralf Mattes]

Am Samstag, 29. Juli 2017 16:48 CEST, Wayne  schrieb:

> So one of the issues, with Subject or Body, is that when an encoded message 
> is unpacked for reading,
> and then recoded for a reply or forwarding, the several different mail 
> reader/editors involved in the
> process tend to mess things up.  I was not able to read the emojis in your 
> reply to the list.
>
>   Wayne

No, I think the situation is much less grimm. I was reading your last mail with 
a webmail
client which replaced the unknown emoji characters (not in the font I use for 
reading) with
those substitute characters. So what you probably got back in the reply body 
was a properly
encoded substitute character. I wouldn't use emojis as a typical use case for 
unicode ...
(just tested with my iPad and the emojis display correct).

Cheers, RalfD





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[LUTE] Re: Better UNICODE Test �� �� ���� �� ����

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Samstag, 29. Juli 2017 14:41 CEST, Wayne  schrieb: 
 
> 
>��

Thanks a lot! Word encoding seems to work now. And even so my humble emacs 
can't display emojis I
appreciate your reference to the original context :-)

Cheers, RalfD

> 
> Wayne
> 
> 
> > 
> > Dear Rainer,
> > 
> > Just to check, this is using the normal Mac 
> > keystrokes for diacriticals, I wonder if it will 
> > be mangled by the Lute Net software?
> > 
> > Ü Ä Ö  ä ö ü é â è
> > 
> > Best wishes,
> > 
> > David
> > 
> > At 14:20 +0200 29/7/17, Rainer wrote:
> >> I have sent this mail with utf-8 encoding and everything looks OK.
> >> 
> >> Rainer
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On 29.07.2017 13:40, Rainer wrote:
> >>> German:  ÄÖÜ äöü ß
> >>> 
> >>> French:éâàè
> >>> 
> >>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 

[LUTE] Anfänger können ünftig schöner Posten?

[Ralf Mattes]

Only a test




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[LUTE] Re: UNICODE Test ÜÄÖ üäö à é

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Samstag, 29. Juli 2017 14:20 CEST, Rainer <rads.bera_g...@t-online.de> 
schrieb: 
 
> I have sent this mail with utf-8 encoding and everything looks OK.

Hello Rainer,

IIRC the original problem was garbled subject line and that gets transmitted in 
the mail header
and that can't transport unicode encoded in the "usual" encoding schemes 
(UTF-8, UTF-16 etc.)
The only wway to encode non 7-bit character data in mail/mime headers is 
so-called word encoding
using either quoted-printable or base64 format (and has the advantage of 
explicitly specifying the
encoding used).

 Cheers, Ralf Mattes


> Rainer
> 
> 
> On 29.07.2017 13:40, Rainer wrote:
> > German:  ÄÖÜ äöü ß
> > 
> > French:éâàè
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 
 
 
 
 

[LUTE] Re=3A?=_?= Sermisy - D ou vient cela=3F?=

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Mittwoch, 26. Juli 2017 04:59 CEST, "Edward C. Yong" <edward.y...@gmail.com> 
schrieb: 
 
>Hello!
>Years ago I had the London Pro Musica edition of Sermisy's D'où vient
>cela - it came together with Tant que vivray in a nice SATB version
>with a solo voice plus lute insert. I can't now find that insert. Tant
>que vivray is everywhere on the internet but not
>D'où vient cela. Would anyone have it in electronic form anywhere?
>Many thanks in advance!

An excellent starting point for research would be:

 http://ricercar.cesr.univ-tours.fr/3-programmes/basechanson/index.htm

In your case that would lead to 

 
http://ricercar.cesr.univ-tours.fr/3-programmes/basechanson/03231-3.asp?numfiche=2080

Which links to an edition (in XML format) of the chanson. That xml is in CMME 
format, so it
does need some pre-processing ...

HTH, Ralf Mattes
>Edward C. Yong
> 
>--
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 

[LUTE] Re=3A?=_?=_Re=3A?= _Sermisy=3D27s=5FD=3D27o=3DC3=3DB9=5Fvient=5Fcela=3F=3D?=

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Mittwoch, 26. Juli 2017 10:17 CEST, "G. C." <kalei...@gmail.com> schrieb: 
 
>Its only because posters are not aware, that to this list they must set
>up their mail program to send text only.

Sorry, bat that's absolutely wrong!
What come over garbled was the mail subject line and that get's transfered in 
the mail header
and that is (as specified in RFC  5322) 7-bit (sic!) ANSI encoded. So, a 
standard email subject 
can not contain characters outside the ŕather limited set of the 127 stndard 
ASCI characters.
That's nothing a client should (or could) mess with. Now, since the rest of the 
(non-american) world
obviously would appreciate being able to use more characters there's a standard 
way to encode these
characters (called 'encoded-word' syntax in rfc2047). That all should be done 
authomatically by the mail
client software.
Unfortunately, from all Ican tell this mailing list does not use one of freely 
available list management software
(mailman, sympa, majordomo ...) but rather a seemingly self-written solutions 
that a certain spots might be
missing some sophistication (see for example the explosion of links in reply 
mails ...).

Cheers, Ralf Mattes

P.S.: to the list master, in case he reads this: please don't take the above as 
a critique, I'm thankful
for the list in it's current state.
  
>G.
> 
>--
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 

[LUTE] Re=3A?=_?= about Hainhofer lute book and Mylius's Thesaurus's Thesaurus gratiarum

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Dienstag, 06. Juni 2017 12:31 CEST, Isaku Ogawa <isakuog...@gmail.com> 
schrieb: 
 
>Dose anyone knows where we can see or get Hainhofer lute book 

http://diglib.hab.de/mss/18-7-aug-2f/start.htm
http://diglib.hab.de/mss/18-8-aug-2f/start.htm


HTH, Ralf Mattes





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Re=3A?=_?=_Re=3A?= Earliest printed tablature with ornaments

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Montag, 06. März 2017 12:32 CET, Ron Andrico <praelu...@hotmail.com> 
schrieb: 
 
>While Wikipedia is untrustworthy in most respects, in this case it may
>be correct.  While ornaments appear liberally in manuscript sources,
>and there are various indications for right-hand fingering and
>left-hand holds in earlier typeset prints of lute music, Vallet's
>tablatures were engraved in copper, a very costly procedure that
>probably contributed to his personal financial ruin.  But this was the
>only means of adding the extraordinarily detailed slurs, fingerings and
>ornament signs to his printed tablatures.  Since the statement
>attributed to Herr Neumann is qualified with "may have been", there is
>no reason to doubt the claim.

But that wikipedia quote doesn't speak about _printed_ tablatures, and for
tablature in general that statement is simply absurd.

BTW (and probably off topic) - I often heaed that statement about copperplate
engraving beeing so expensive. What actual evidence do we have? Lower possible
volume might be one factor (but where lute prints ever high-volume 
merchandise?).

Cheers, Ralf Mattes
> 
>RA
>  __
> 
>From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf
>of Rainer <rads.bera_g...@t-online.de>
>Sent: Monday, March 6, 2017 10:49 AM
>To: Lute net
>Subject: [LUTE] Earliest printed tablature with ornaments
> 
>Dear lute netters,
>According to Wikipedia
>"According to Frederick Neumann,[2] Vallet may have been among the
>first to introduce ornaments into lute tablature."
>Of course this is nonsense.
>Anyway, does anybody know of printed tablature with ornaments before
>1596?
>Rainer
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>[1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>[2]Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail list
>www.cs.dartmouth.edu
>Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail list. getting
>on and off the list; How do I get on the lute mail list? How do I get
>off the lute mail list?
> 
>--
> 
> References
> 
>1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
 
 
 
 

Re=3A?=_?=_Re=3A?= 14 Course Powered Tiorbino

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Sonntag, 05. März 2017 15:37 CET, Anthony Hart <anthony.hart1...@gmail.com> 
schrieb: 
 
>I do not think my message got transmitted.
> 
>I read with interest your post to the Lute discussion group.I have been
>thinking of doing the same with my attiorbato. I have problems in
>calculating the correct  strings. What actual tuning do you use?
> 

It has been a long time since I last did this, but it prettry much boild down 
to combining 
a attiorbato in a and an attiorbato in g:

 1.  original a from a-instrument
 2.  original from a-instrument
 3. <-- that one is tricky: you either need a very thin string or a rather 
short attiorbato to start with 
 4. first from g-instrument
 5. second from g-instrument
 6. third from g-instrument  


HTH Ralf Mattes


 
 
 
 





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Re=3A?=_?= _Montbuysson=2FElisabeth?= von Hessen

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Freitag, 03. März 2017 19:31 CET, Rainer <rads.bera_g...@t-online.de> 
schrieb: 
 
> http://orka.bibliothek.uni-kassel.de/viewer/image/1484138262748/1/
> 
> Rainer
> 
> PS: There is a pdf symbol - for a single page ;(

Yes, and the price for the worst user interface goes to ... 
Why does it have to be that it always looks like those viewers are written by 
someome's girlfriend's
brother in laws nephew ("he knows how to program html!")?
There actually _is_ a way to download the manuscipt - on the left side menu, 
select 'Contents',  on the
right side of the info box of the content view there's a pdf icon that links to 
a pdf of the complete manuscipt.
Why that icon is missing on the otherwise identical single page info box must 
have some deep religious 
meaning.

 HTH Ralf Mattes

> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 

Re=3A?=_?=_Re=3A?= Baroque lute and the little finger=3F?=

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Sonntag, 26. Februar 2017 15:53 CET, Richard Brook <richa...@ptd.net> 
schrieb: 
 
> Hi John
> 
> I have found the same problem. My pinky and ring finger wish to act as a unit.

Wellcome to the club ;-) 
That might explain why the ring finger was hardly ever used in lute playing 
(and in most of 18th
century guitar playing!).  And let's not forget that keyboard fingering up the 
the early 18th century
avoids right hand thumb and pinky.

>  I finally gave up thumb under on R lute because of this and use a very light 
> touch with pinky on B lute.
> And often lift lt to get to 12 and 13 courses.I notice some very good layers 
> often do the same. I’d be interested in other’s comments as well.

Why not do as "they" did? Give up on the ring finger and strech out your right 
thumb. This change does take
some time and it's tempting to fall back into olf habits but after a while it 
all starts to make sense.

 Cheers, Ralf Mattes

> Dick
> 
> 
> > On Feb 26, 2017, at 3:52 AM, John Yentes <jackyen...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> >   Hello all,
> >   I am sure this is a topic that has been beaten to death at some time or
> >   another, but I figured I would try to find some opinions as they are a
> >   bit difficult to come by when merely searching on google.
> >  I have done a good bit of practicing while resting my pinky on the
> >   soundboard which proves to be mildly helpful when searching for some of
> >   the bass strings, however, I have been practicing for the past couple
> >   months without doing so and have found that muscle memory tends to take
> >   care of me rather well.   I am still a beginner on the baroque lute.
> >   I have mastered some of the shorter Gaultier and Weiss pieces (I'm sure
> >   the term mastered is entirely subjective) and have found that I am able
> >   to play with a much lighter touch and have far better dynamic control
> >   when my pinky is free rather than resting.   I tend to owe this to the
> >   fact that my pinky and ring finger are hopelessly connected together,
> >   so my range of motion is not great when playing with a rested little
> >   finger.   I have also noticed that there are a few professional players
> >   who tend to play with a free little finger as well.
> >   I don't use gut strings, but I have heard that one must play closer to
> >   the bridge to achieve a good tone when using them, so the practice of
> >   resting the little finger on the bridge seems more practical in this
> >   situation.   I, however, have found the best sounds for Carbon/nylon to
> >   come either from directly behind the rosette or perhaps somewhere in
> >   the middle.   I apologize for the long winded post.  any thoughts on
> >   this?
> >   Jack
> > 
> >   --
> > 
> > 
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 
> 
 
 
 
 

Re: Re: Gigue in D minor (Possibly Weiss)

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2017 17:31 CET, David Smith <d...@dolcesfogato.com> 
schrieb: 
 
> And when I go to the link it is a blank page. Not sure what is going on but I 
> have used both chrome and safari with the same results.
> David

This is getting dangerously off-topicm but: you simply can not send such a link 
since that link does contain
a session ID which most likely will only work for the browser/client that 
started that session (and that's a 
good thing, since otherwide someone might take over this session which _might_ 
even contain payment
information ...). N.B.: never post links have during a e-commerce transaction 
;-)

HTH Ralf Mattes


>
 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> > On Jan 24, 2017, at 8:04 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier <jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr> 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > There you go David : 
> > https://www.books2ebooks.eu/odm/orderformular.do;jsessionid=7CC03FEF47C6B9B8F9C16D1C15529ED5
> > Just fill in your payment details and you're done ;-) !
> > 
> > Best,
> > 
> > Jean-Marie
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > 
> >> Hi Mathew,
> >> I have the links. The first link takes me to a page with many manuscripts 
> >> but none with the title of the manuscript that matches. The second link 
> >> goes to a blank page. This is why I was asking for clarification, on the 
> >> first link there are two manuscripts that can be ordered. I think the 
> >> second one is the correct one.
> >> Regards
> >> David
> >> 
> >> Sent from my iPad
> >> 
> >>> On Jan 24, 2017, at 12:18 AM, Matthew Daillie <dail...@club-internet.fr> 
> >>> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> David,
> >>> If you look at my first response you will see the links to details of the 
> >>> manuscript and how to order a download.
> >>> Best,
> >>> Matthew 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>>> On Jan 24, 2017, at 0:50, Daniel Shoskes <kidneykut...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> 
> >>>> It was 14.5 Euros, payable by credit card or paypal. 
> >>>> 
> >>>> That’s how it was listed. The contents are here: 
> >>>> http://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=1=ms=F-Sim 
> >>>> <http://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=1=ms=F-Sim>
> >>>> 
> >>>> Danny
> >>>> 
> >>>>> On Jan 23, 2017, at 6:27 PM, David Smith <d...@dolcesfogato.com> wrote:
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Danny,
> >>>>> How much was it? And Is it this document?
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Laütenbüch 3989
> >>>>> Musique imprimée - 1740
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Regards
> >>>>> David
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> -Original Message-
> >>>>> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On 
> >>>>> Behalf Of Daniel Shoskes
> >>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2017 3:58 AM
> >>>>> To: Matthew Daillie <dail...@club-internet.fr>
> >>>>> Cc: Lute List <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> >>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Gigue in D minor (Possibly Weiss)
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Thanks so much for the information Matthew. I went through the process 
> >>>>> (took a few days) and today was able to download a high quality scan of 
> >>>>> the Ms in which I have found other charming pieces that Pat O’Brien had 
> >>>>> shared with me as “possible Weiss”. Even has a d minor Allemande (20v) 
> >>>>> which was the first piece I ever played in public on the baroque lute 
> >>>>> at LSA!
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Danny
> >>>>>> On Jan 18, 2017, at 7:46 AM, Matthew Daillie 
> >>>>>> <dail...@club-internet.fr> wrote:
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> If you are interested you can order a scan of the Baltic Lute Book
> >>>>>> (F-Sim ms. Rm 271 (Baltisches Lautenbuch) from the Strasbourg library.
> >>>>>> Here are the links:
> >>>>>> [1]http://biblio.bnu.fr/opac/.do?sysb=bnu=LIBERA:Lautenbuch#5
> >>>>>> [2]https://www.books2ebooks.eu/odm/orderformular.do?formular_id21
> >>>>>> mark=BUSBP_id=BUS1520062
> >>>>>> It seems that it would cost in the region of 15 euros.
> >>>>>> Best,
> >>&g

Re: Re: Mrs White's nothing

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Sonntag, 15. Januar 2017 22:37 CET, Mathias Rösel 
<mathias.roe...@t-online.de> schrieb: 
 

> > and he wants to say that the false relations sound fine if played fast 
> > enough.
> > There are no "wrong" notes.

Wait, wait! Nowhere does Mudarra mention speed at all. It's an easy to fall in 
trap to claim to know
what an author "wants to say", esp. if you are ignoring what he wrote - 
"Algunas falsas tañiendo se bien 
no pareçen mal"

> Indeed, and it was Mudarra himself who wrote those words concerning "false 
> notes" in his fantasia.

I'd even be reluctant to translate "falsas" with "false notes" (Mathias, is 
that why you put it in quotes?)

"Musica falsa" was a well established alternative term for "musica ficta", i.e. 
notes that are generated from
hexachords other than the standard three. So, as an alternative (possible) 
translation one might read:
" from here until the end you find some (disjunct) hexachords that, when played 
well appear to sound good."

Not nearly as good a story as that about Mudarra making fun of Lodovico's 
skills as a harp player but actually
rather convincing when you look at the music. And it give us valuable 
information on techniques used on
diatonic harps to cope with the increasing needs of raised tones in cadences.

 Cheers, Ralf Mattes


 
 
 

 
 
 

 





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Re: Fwd: Re: Re: Archive files

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Just some more info : the archive webpages will only go back to 2008 but the 
search will return results 
from earlier messages, Just type something into the basic search field (i,e. 
"2005"). On the result page
you'll find a link to "advanced search" - there you can restrict your search to 
a time period.

HTH RalfD





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Fwd: Re: Re: Archive files

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Dienstag, 18. Oktober 2016 18:20 CEST, "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" 
<mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> schrieb: 
 
> That's very helpful. I'm almost there. But the messages which I want to 
> look at are on the vihuela list between March 2006 to the end of 2007 
> and are compressed I think.  The uncompressed files for lute and 
> vihuela seem to end in 2008.

??? The vihuela mailing list is archived here:
 
 https://www.mail-archive.com/vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu/maillist.html

And there are definitely mails from before 2008.

 HTH Ralf Mattes


 
 
 

 





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Re: Re: Archive files

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Montag, 17. Oktober 2016 19:01 CEST, Rainer <rads.bera_g...@t-online.de> 
schrieb: 
 
> PS
> 
> .gz is gnu zipped.

And, once unpacked, the file is in mbox format, all mails (including the mail 
headers) in one big
text file. Any decent mail program should be able to import this.

 HTH Ralf Mattes


> 
> Any decent freeware packer/unpacker should handle them.
> 
> Rainer
> 
> On 17.10.2016 14:32, mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
>  > I have been trying to consult some of the archive files but can't get
>  > them to open.  I downloaded what I think is the right app for this and
>  > the files appear with the appropriate icon but they don't open.  Ha
>  > anyone got the time to explain to me what I am doing wrong.
>  > Many thanks
>  > Monica
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > To get on or off this list see list information at
>  > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>  >
> 
> 
 
 
 
 

Re: Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Mittwoch, 12. Oktober 2016 11:19 CEST, gary <magg...@sonic.net> schrieb: 
 
> Doesn't it seem a little ironic that those who champion a technique
> that's 400 years old are calling Segovia's technique "old fashioned".
> 
> Gary

No. Unless you miss the subtle difference between "old" and "old fashioned".

 Cheers, Ralf Mattes

 
 
 





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Re: Re: Creating a short score from pdf full score

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Mittwoch, 05. Oktober 2016 16:54 CEST, Martyn Hodgson 
<hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> schrieb: 
 
>Thank you Arthur.
>In fact chatting to an IT person earlier today they suggested GIMP
>which seems to be much used for art work etc but they thought might
>also be useful to move blocks of musical systems around. I've
>downloaded it (it's free!) but the operation of the software isn't
>obvious so I'll have to find precious time to understand it - unless my
>son (now a Seattle resident) can explain it all to me when I next chat
>with him...

Please, don't use Gimp. It's a marvelous program, but not meant for that kind
of job (and your "IT-person" should know ...) Gimp works on raster images
only and will convert a pdf to a (set of) raster images. At that point you work 
with
pixel data which will most likely look rather disapointing when printed at
a different resolution.

>Incidentally, Finale does have a free 'Notepad' version but this seems
>very limited and unable (I think) to do the sort of cut and paste I had
>in mind. 

Before you investigate further in Finale (a piece of crap IMHO) you might
want to have a look at MuseScore (https://musescore.org) - that'll probably
give you more than you ever need, and the latest versions have pretty good
support for lute tab.

> Previously I've simply run off a photocopy and by using some
>large paper shears and glue made a physical paste up - but the 160+
>pages of the mass rather put me off this traditional technique - hence
>the search for a digital alternative.

The digital version of that would be to import our pdf into a vector drawing 
program (Adobe Illustrator, Inkscape etc.) but the quality of that import
depends on the program that generated the pdf.
Unfortunately, the only convincing path to solve your problem is to use the
same program as the original typesetter (if you can get the original digital 
version,
NO the pdf). Otherwise, a good pair of scissors IS an astonishingly effective 
tool :-)

Cheers, Ralf Mattes

>regards
>Martyn
> 
 
 
 
 





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Re: The French are coming!

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Montag, 03. Oktober 2016 17:00 CEST, Martin Shepherd <mar...@luteshop.co.uk> 
schrieb: 
 
> Hi All,
> 
> A couple of featured pieces to ponder:
> 
> http://luteshop.co.uk/corants-by-john-sturt-and-jacques-gaultier/

Hi Martin,

I think you mixed up the labeling of your links to the pdfs ...

Cheers, Ralf Mattes

> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Martin
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 

Re: Re: insinuations

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Mittwoch, 03. August 2016 21:23 CEST, "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" 
<mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> schrieb: 
 
> There is just one point that I would like to make and that is that if 
> someone posts a message to this list I don't think that it is 
> appropriate for anyone to reply to them privately unless the person 
> posting the message has specifically asked people to do that.

That's a rather strange idea - there are _many_ reasons to only reply in a 
private/personal
mail. Imagine the OP making an embarassing fax-pas. Do you really prefer to 
inform her/him
in public? 
I was actually pretty shocked by Anton's mail: long, long ago I was told that 
replying to/forwarding a 
private mail to a mailing list/usenet group is considered incredibly rude (I 
got a copy of "Zen or the
Art of Internet" from the local Sysadmin when i applied for my first shell 
account). To qoute that manual:

 "In the interests of privacy, it's considered extremely bad taste to post any 
email that someone 
  may have sent, unless they explicitly give you permission to redistribute it. 
While the legal issues
  can be heavily debated, most everyone agrees that email should be treated as 
anything that are 
  carried with it."

But that was long before AOL ;-(

> That defeats the object of the list 

Depends.  Most replies _should_ go to the list (those being on-topic) but some 
are of no
concern to the list.


> and I for one have not got time to 
> engage separately in discussions with anyone and everyone about 
> everything. 

It used to be good practice to state this in your signature line ...

> It is also a breach of someones' privacy.

You've lost me here.

 Cheers, Ralf Mattes

> As ever..
> Monica 
> 
> 
> Original Message
> From: hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
> Date: 03/08/2016 16:24 
> To: "List Lutelist"<lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Subj: [LUTE] Re: insinuations
> 
> note: I am resenbding this message becasue it got caught in spam traps 
> - wayne
> 
>Dear Anton Hoger,
>I sent you a private email trying to be helpful and was therefore a 
> bit
>surprised to find you didn't reply to me but instead fired off a 
> touchy
>general response!  And I really don't know what you mean by
>'insinuations' - insinuations of what? Believe it, or not, I was 
> simply
>trying to helpfully suggest that you might save yourself a lot of 
> time
>and effort if you read pieces directly from the staff notation and 
> also
>learned figured bass rather than always having to employ an
>intermediate stage of written intabulation.
>Now you raise the matter, generally I do think that most reasonably
>competent players should be encouraged to make their own
>arrangements/transcriptions in their own style and, as I say, to be
>able to play reasonably fluently from staff notation without always
>having to rely on a modern intabulation made by a third party.
>Similarly, I think it good for lute players to be encouraged to 
> become
>fluent in Italian tablature without needing to rely on 
> transcriptions
>into the French system. The reliance on other peoples' arrangements 
> and
>transcriptions can, in my view, be restrictive and effectively close
>much of the enormous wealth of music from all ages.  I also believe
>that the process of making ones own arrangements/transcriptions is
>thoroughly enjoyable one (and really not 'rocket science') and is a
>personally creative way for individuals to discover original music 
> and
>repertoire new to them. And, I might add, to create something which
>ideally matches their individual technical capabilities, instrument
> (s)
>and musical tastes.
>MH
> 
>  Original message 
>From: Anton Hoeger
>Date:2016-08-03 03:24 (GMT-05:00)
>To: List Lutelist
>Subject: [LUTE] insinuations
>>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> Martin Hogson wrote:
>>
>> Dear Anton Hoger,
>>
>> Have you ever considered learning to play from figured bass? 
> This
>would save you much mundane work making these unnecessary
>transcriptions/arrangements.
>>
>> MH
>>
>>
>> Yes of course! But how do you bring my Renaissance 
> Intabulations
>  with
>Dimunitions in relation with a figured bass?
>> These one has nothing to do with the other one!
>> On the other side I have so far only very few Earlybaroque
>figured
>Bass edited pieces. Exactly this Arrangements may be interesting
>for
> 

Fwd: Re: Hidalgo Fret pattern

[Ralf Mattes]

 
 

Sorry - I used the wrong from-Adress to post to this list:
 
 
 
Am Freitag, 01. Januar 2016 11:00 CET, Andreas Schlegel 
<lute.cor...@sunrise.ch> schrieb: 
 
> Dear collected wisdom,
> 
> I found this in Bob Spencer's collection, now in the Royal Academy of Music, 
> London:
> https://www.ram.ac.uk/museum/item/20514
> http://keimages.ram.ac.uk/emuweb/php5/media.php?irn=16670
> 
> Who knows the exact meaning of this engraving?

Hello Anreas et al.

I haven't seen this picture before but looking at it it lmediately reminded me 
of the construction for perspectivic
distortions I learned long ago (the classic textbook example would be a tiled 
floor). From the info page about 
this page I get that the  image was indeed part of a book about painting.
Now, the interessting question is: Is this only a clever use of a rawing 
technique to approximate fret patterns or
was this construction used to place frets? (if so this woul of course generate 
a goo approximation of a nequal
tempered scale ...)

Nice find, thank's for the post an a happy new year to all members

 Ralf Mattes


P.S.: for the principal construction see  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspective_(graphical)#Methods_of_construction

> Is there a translation of the text?
> 
> Thanks a lot!
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Andreas
> 
> 
> Andreas Schlegel
> Eckstr. 6
> CH-5737 Menziken
> +41 (0)62 771 47 07
> lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 

 
 
 

 

Fwd: Re: Re: Hidalgo Fret pattern

[Ralf Mattes]

 
 
@andreas: bringing back our exchange to the list, hope you on't mind.

Am Freitag, 01. Januar 2016 15:01 CET, "M Hall"  
schrieb: 
 
> I think he is not really concerned with tying frets.   What he is
> illustrating is Rules of perspective  when drawing frets on the fingerboard.
> He starts off by saying that the distance between the bridge and the nut is
> divided into 16 parts starting from point E on the drawing. 

Are you shure? Point E is the vanishing point of the drawing an has nothing to 
do
with the fret placement at all. And, if we respect his drawing, all instrument 
would have 
the same string length which I thin is highly unlikely.
@andreas: yes, with a bit of imagination one can interpret the construction on 
the rightmost
instrument (the lines going from the frts ownward to the A on the lower right) 
as such an
approach at equal tempered frets. Im not shure whether the author was concerned 
with 
the musical implications (It might be that the qoal was to create something 
that looks convincing).
As for using iconigraphical sources as proof for tempraments: I think this 
drawing is a goo proof
that this is not possible - this is an instruction book for perspective and yet 
there are numerous 
perspectivic errors - look how twisted some of the perboxes an esp. the lower 
ends of some of
the lute shaped bodies look. Also, the fingerbord of the lute-shaped wirestrung 
instrument (the 
fifth instrument from the right) seems to be mirrored.


Cheers, RalfD

P.S. sorry for the typos, my d-key is broken and I can currently only use one 
eye .. ;-)


> It is not very
> easy to read. It is from Jose Garcia Hidalgo - Principios para estudiar
> el nobilisimo y real arte de la pintura printed in Madrid in 1691.  This
> includes other drawings illustrating the rules of perspective.
> Monica
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
> Of Andreas Schlegel
> Sent: 01 January 2016 10:01
> To: lute list
> Subject: [LUTE] Hidalgo Fret pattern
> 
> Dear collected wisdom,
> 
> I found this in Bob Spencer's collection, now in the Royal Academy of Music,
> London:
> https://www.ram.ac.uk/museum/item/20514
> http://keimages.ram.ac.uk/emuweb/php5/media.php?irn=16670
> 
> Who knows the exact meaning of this engraving?
> Is there a translation of the text?
> 
> Thanks a lot!
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Andreas
> 
> 
> Andreas Schlegel
> Eckstr. 6
> CH-5737 Menziken
> +41 (0)62 771 47 07
> lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 
 
 
 
 

 
 
 

 

[LUTE] Re: Capirola question

[Ralf Mattes]

On Wed, 2007-07-25 at 22:32 -0700, gary digman wrote:
 F. C. da Milano played viol as well as lute 

This might very likely have been a `viola da mano' (italian form of a
vihuela) ...

 and used fingerpicks on the
 lute. De Visee played lute, theorbo and guitar. Paul O'dette, Hopkinson
 Smith, Rolf Lislevand,  Jacob Lindberg et al all play lute, guitar, bandora,
 cittern, theorbo, etc. 

Yes, but there is a substantial difference between a baroque guitar and
a modern one. BTW - at least some of the players aren't too fanatic to
use the (however) authentic technique on the instruments you mention.
I've seen thumb-under in late german baroque music performances ...
 
 When playing lute, use lute technique, when playing
 guitar use guitar technique. I must confess I don't see what the problem (or
 gap) is. Lute technique is not the opposite of guitar technique, they're
 just different, they're not mutually exclusive.

Well - is that really true? As long as you have long flamenco-style
fingernails it's pretty much impossible to play renaissance lute and get
that delicate Paul O'Dette sound (careful: I'm _not_ saying that you
can't get a beautiful sound - just that certain techniques don't work as
long as you use nails). Another thing I noticed: players being used to
contemporary guitar technique sometimes have, erm, suboptimal righ hand
positions on large lutes (Baroque lutes/Theorbos) and end up in a
playing position that _can_ lead to severe injuries. Just be careful.

HTH Ralf Mattes
 

 All the Best,
 Gary
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: Stephan Olbertz [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 1:01 AM
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Capirola question
 
 
  Am 24 Jul 2007 um 2:50 hat gary digman geschrieben:
 
   Does somebody have a problem with playing both or even more instruments,
 not
   necessarily at the same time, not that there's anything wrong with
 that?
 
  As far as I can see, lute and guitar are as seperated in the
 conservatories and so on as
  cembalo and piano, probably even more, because you still have some
 pianists who
  occasionaly try to accompany someone on the cembalo. While we usually
 think that the HIP
  movement has resulted in a gap between lute and classical guitar, it's
 interesting to see that
  it still can be reasonable to play lute instruments with guitar technique
 (with only minor
  adjustments).
 
  Regards,
 
  Stephan
 
 
 
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
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