[LUTE] Re: Latin translation
> The first line is actually Philippo Thomae Howard ordinis praedicatorum > S.R.E. Presb. Card. de Norfolcia Hiberie Anglie e Scotie Protectoris. I take that as: Philipo Thomae Howard to Philip Thomas Howard ordinis praedicatorum of the Dominican Order Sanctae Romanae Ecclesiae Presbyteri Cardinalis de Norfolcia, Cardinal priest of Norfolk to the Holy Roman Church Hiberiae, Angliae et Scotiae Protectoris Protector of Spain, England, and Scotland Protector means an office of the Roman Church, viz. the apostolic vicariate. > I am a bit puzzled by "Hiberie" which I assume is actually Hibernia = > Ireland. It can't be Spain. He was Protector of catholics in England and > Scotland but not as far as I know in Ireland. I'm sorry to say that I couldn't find out more than that Hiberiae actually is Spain, not Ireland. Does Hiberiae possibly refer here to the Spanish Netherlands? Howard had founded a priory there (in Bornem, today located in the Belgian province of Antwerp). Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Latin translation
Original Message From: mathias.roe...@t-online.de Date: 30/03/2017 16:22 To: "'LutList'"<lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Subj: [LUTE] Re: Latin translation Philipo Thomas Howard pr[a]edicatorium etc... In obsequi[i] pignus addictis[s]imus servus Jacobus de Rubeis. To Philip Thomas Howard … as pledge of obedience, [your] most obliged servant Jacobus de Rubeis. The upper line seems a little unclear to me. "To Philip Thomas Howard" would actually be " Philipo Thomae". Secondly, praedicatorium is a study (room). I was wondering, as Philip Howard had joined the Dominican Order in 1645, if "predicatorium etc" was rather meant to read predicatorum ord, "of the Dominican Order". Mathias Thank you - that's very helpful. You are right about predicatorum. The first line is actually Philippo Thomae Howard ordinis praedicatorum S.R. E. Presb. Card. de Norfolcia Hiberie Anglie e Scotie Protectoris. I am a bit puzzled by "Hiberie" which I assume is actually Hibernia = Ireland. It can't be Spain. He was Protector of catholics in England and Scotland but not as far as I know in Ireland. Thank you again. Monica > It appears at the bottom of an engraved portrait of the English King James II. Philip Howard was an English Catholic Cardinal adviser to James and Jacobus de Rubeis was the engraver but it is not clear to me who is doing what to whomI think, but may be wrong, that Howard commissioned the engraving from Rubeis aka Giacomo de Rossi Any help would be much appreciated. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Latin translation
Philipo Thomas Howard pr[a]edicatorium etc... In obsequi[i] pignus addictis[s]imus servus Jacobus de Rubeis. To Philip Thomas Howard … as pledge of obedience, [your] most obliged servant Jacobus de Rubeis. The upper line seems a little unclear to me. "To Philip Thomas Howard" would actually be " Philipo Thomae". Secondly, praedicatorium is a study (room). I was wondering, as Philip Howard had joined the Dominican Order in 1645, if "predicatorium etc" was rather meant to read predicatorum ord, "of the Dominican Order". Mathias > It appears at the bottom of an engraved portrait of the English King James > II. Philip Howard was an English Catholic Cardinal adviser to James and > Jacobus de Rubeis was the engraver but it is not clear to me who is doing > what to whomI think, but may be wrong, that Howard commissioned the > engraving from Rubeis aka Giacomo de Rossi Any help would be much appreciated. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Latin translation
I wonder if anyone with better Latin than me can translate the following phrase... Philipo Thomas Howard predicatorium etc... In obsequi pignus addictisimus servus Jacobus de Rubeis. It appears at the bottom of an engraved portrait of the English King James II. Philip Howard was an English Catholic Cardinal adviser to James and Jacobus de Rubeis was the engraver but it is not clear to me who is doing what to whomI think, but may be wrong, that Howard commissioned the engraving from Rubeis aka Giacomo de Rossi Any help would be much appreciated. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] [Lute]Re: Latin Translation
Fidibus illustris ille Corbetto Italus Voce Margharitha Salicola virgo Boniensis Venetis tam famosa theatris vicere musas. As Monica suspected, the author of these lines seems to have been (or was pretending to be?) somewhat incompetent in Latin, given the standards of the period. It looks like he may have been attempting to write the piece in hexameters and then gave up. The most amusing gaff (if that's what it is) is his use of famosa to describe the virgo Margharitha Salicola, In classical Latin (which would have been the literary idiom in the late seventeenth- /early eighteenth-century), famosus meant infamous or notorious, not famous. Brad -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Latin translation
How about the following for a literal, if not very elegant, translation? By his strings that illustrious Italian Corbetto (and) by her voice the so famous Bolognese maiden Margharitha Salicola defeated the muses in the Venetian theaters. I'm not exactly sure what defeated the muses refers to, apart from excellence in performance. Perhaps it is a reference to the daughters of Pierus, who challenged the muses in a contest of song and were turned into magpies when defeated. (Similar stories are the challenge of Marsyas to Apollo in flute playing or that of Arachne to Athena in weaving. There are others, but I can't think of them right now.) -Original Message- From: Monica Hall Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 10:02 AM To: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Latin translation I wonder if there is any Latin scholar on this list who could translate the following brief reference to Corbetta... Fidibus illustris ille Corbetto Italus Voce Margharitha Salicola virgo Boniensis Venetis tam famosa theatris vicere musas. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Latin translation
Maybe in the context it means deputized for or replaced the muses
in the theatre in Venice,
Monica
- Original Message -
From: [1]Alan Hoyle
To: [2]Monica Hall
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Latin translation
'Vicere' - I am not 100% positive, but I am pretty sure that this word
derives from 'vicerex' ('viceroy', 'substitute', 'vicar', 'embodiment
of'..) and is its ablative form, and has nothing to do with the
verb 'Vincere'
N.B. it is over 50 years since I made any serious study of Latin, and
although it may not have changed in that time, I most certainly have...
Alan
On 8 April 2015 at 16:42, Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
Thanks to Wikipedia . apparently
Margarita Salicola (floruit 1682 - 1706) was a famous opera singer
of her time. She came from a family of musicians at the court of the
Ferdinando Carlo Gonzaga, Duke of Mantua and became a staple of
casts at San Giovanni Grisostomo, Venice's newest and most famous
theater, in the 1680s. etc...
Corbetta was employed at the Mantuan Court - so presumably they
appeared together there at some point...
Monica
- Original Message - From: Monica Hall
[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
To: stephen arndt [5]stephenwar...@verizon.net
Cc: Lutelist [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 4:33 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Latin translation
Brilliant. Has anyone heard of a singer called Margarita Salicola?
Monica
- Original Message - From: stephen arndt
[7]stephenwar...@verizon.net
To: Monica Hall [8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Lutelist
[9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Latin translation
How about the following for a literal, if not very elegant,
translation?
By his strings that illustrious Italian Corbetto (and) by her voice
the so
famous Bolognese maiden Margharitha Salicola defeated the muses in
the
Venetian theaters.
I'm not exactly sure what defeated the muses refers to, apart from
excellence in performance. Perhaps it is a reference to the
daughters of
Pierus, who challenged the muses in a contest of song and were
turned into
magpies when defeated. (Similar stories are the challenge of Marsyas
to
Apollo in flute playing or that of Arachne to Athena in weaving.
There are
others, but I can't think of them right now.)
-Original Message- From: Monica Hall
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 10:02 AM
To: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Latin translation
I wonder if there is any Latin scholar on this list who could
translate
the
following brief reference to Corbetta...
Fidibus illustris ille Corbetto Italus
Voce Margharitha Salicola virgo Boniensis
Venetis tam famosa theatris vicere musas.
Monica
To get on or off this list see list information at
[10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:adr...@gmail.com
2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
4. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
5. mailto:stephenwar...@verizon.net
6. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
7. mailto:stephenwar...@verizon.net
8. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
9. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Latin translation
Another thought: If vicere means viceroy or substitute, it doesn't
seem to refer to Corbetto and Salicola because their names are in the
nominative case and the two together are plural, whereas vicere is, on
this hypothesis, ablative and singular. The only possible construction I can
think of would be the ablative absolute, but it would require the two names
and their modifying adjectives to be in ablative as well. If it means the
embodiment of, you would expect musas to be in the genitive case, not the
accusative. If vicere is a verb, however, then the sentence makes a
statement, which it does not really do otherwise, and you have a reason both
for the two names to be in the nominative case as the subject of the
sentence and for musas to be in the accusative case as the direct object
of the verb.
-Original Message-
From: stephen arndt
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 11:51 AM
To: Monica Hall ; Alan Hoyle
Cc: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Latin translation
If vicere is a noun in the ablative case, the sentence is left without a
verb, and then you have to explain why musas is in the accusative case. If
vicerex were a Latin word (it is not in Lewis and Short), the ablative
would be vicerege, not vicere. The latter is listed as a poetic form of
vincere by Lewis and Short. Morever, vincere musas was a set phrase in
Latin.
-Original Message-
From: Monica Hall
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 11:06 AM
To: Alan Hoyle
Cc: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Latin translation
Maybe in the context it means deputized for or replaced the muses
in the theatre in Venice,
Monica
- Original Message -
From: [1]Alan Hoyle
To: [2]Monica Hall
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Latin translation
'Vicere' - I am not 100% positive, but I am pretty sure that this word
derives from 'vicerex' ('viceroy', 'substitute', 'vicar', 'embodiment
of'..) and is its ablative form, and has nothing to do with the
verb 'Vincere'
N.B. it is over 50 years since I made any serious study of Latin, and
although it may not have changed in that time, I most certainly have...
Alan
On 8 April 2015 at 16:42, Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
Thanks to Wikipedia . apparently
Margarita Salicola (floruit 1682 - 1706) was a famous opera singer
of her time. She came from a family of musicians at the court of the
Ferdinando Carlo Gonzaga, Duke of Mantua and became a staple of
casts at San Giovanni Grisostomo, Venice's newest and most famous
theater, in the 1680s. etc...
Corbetta was employed at the Mantuan Court - so presumably they
appeared together there at some point...
Monica
- Original Message - From: Monica Hall
[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
To: stephen arndt [5]stephenwar...@verizon.net
Cc: Lutelist [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 4:33 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Latin translation
Brilliant. Has anyone heard of a singer called Margarita Salicola?
Monica
- Original Message - From: stephen arndt
[7]stephenwar...@verizon.net
To: Monica Hall [8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Lutelist
[9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Latin translation
How about the following for a literal, if not very elegant,
translation?
By his strings that illustrious Italian Corbetto (and) by her voice
the so
famous Bolognese maiden Margharitha Salicola defeated the muses in
the
Venetian theaters.
I'm not exactly sure what defeated the muses refers to, apart from
excellence in performance. Perhaps it is a reference to the
daughters of
Pierus, who challenged the muses in a contest of song and were
turned into
magpies when defeated. (Similar stories are the challenge of Marsyas
to
Apollo in flute playing or that of Arachne to Athena in weaving.
There are
others, but I can't think of them right now.)
-Original Message- From: Monica Hall
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 10:02 AM
To: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Latin translation
I wonder if there is any Latin scholar on this list who could
translate
the
following brief reference to Corbetta...
Fidibus illustris ille Corbetto Italus
Voce Margharitha Salicola virgo Boniensis
Venetis tam famosa theatris vicere musas.
Monica
To get on or off this list see list information at
[10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:adr...@gmail.com
2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
4. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
5. mailto:stephenwar...@verizon.net
6. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
7. mailto:stephenwar...@verizon.net
8. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
9. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Latin translation
Could it mean, in effect, that they played even better than the muses?
A bit of classical hyperbole typical of the times . . .
Gary
Dr. Gary R. Boye
Professor and Music Librarian
Appalachian State University
On 4/8/2015 12:51 PM, stephen arndt wrote:
If vicere is a noun in the ablative case, the sentence is left
without a verb, and then you have to explain why musas is in the
accusative case. If vicerex were a Latin word (it is not in Lewis
and Short), the ablative would be vicerege, not vicere. The latter
is listed as a poetic form of vincere by Lewis and Short. Morever,
vincere musas was a set phrase in Latin.
-Original Message- From: Monica Hall
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 11:06 AM
To: Alan Hoyle
Cc: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Latin translation
Maybe in the context it means deputized for or replaced the muses
in the theatre in Venice,
Monica
- Original Message -
From: [1]Alan Hoyle
To: [2]Monica Hall
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Latin translation
'Vicere' - I am not 100% positive, but I am pretty sure that this word
derives from 'vicerex' ('viceroy', 'substitute', 'vicar', 'embodiment
of'..) and is its ablative form, and has nothing to do with the
verb 'Vincere'
N.B. it is over 50 years since I made any serious study of Latin, and
although it may not have changed in that time, I most certainly have...
Alan
On 8 April 2015 at 16:42, Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
Thanks to Wikipedia . apparently
Margarita Salicola (floruit 1682 - 1706) was a famous opera singer
of her time. She came from a family of musicians at the court of the
Ferdinando Carlo Gonzaga, Duke of Mantua and became a staple of
casts at San Giovanni Grisostomo, Venice's newest and most famous
theater, in the 1680s. etc...
Corbetta was employed at the Mantuan Court - so presumably they
appeared together there at some point...
Monica
- Original Message - From: Monica Hall
[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
To: stephen arndt [5]stephenwar...@verizon.net
Cc: Lutelist [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 4:33 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Latin translation
Brilliant. Has anyone heard of a singer called Margarita Salicola?
Monica
- Original Message - From: stephen arndt
[7]stephenwar...@verizon.net
To: Monica Hall [8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Lutelist
[9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Latin translation
How about the following for a literal, if not very elegant,
translation?
By his strings that illustrious Italian Corbetto (and) by her voice
the so
famous Bolognese maiden Margharitha Salicola defeated the muses in
the
Venetian theaters.
I'm not exactly sure what defeated the muses refers to, apart from
excellence in performance. Perhaps it is a reference to the
daughters of
Pierus, who challenged the muses in a contest of song and were
turned into
magpies when defeated. (Similar stories are the challenge of Marsyas
to
Apollo in flute playing or that of Arachne to Athena in weaving.
There are
others, but I can't think of them right now.)
-Original Message- From: Monica Hall
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 10:02 AM
To: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Latin translation
I wonder if there is any Latin scholar on this list who could
translate
the
following brief reference to Corbetta...
Fidibus illustris ille Corbetto Italus
Voce Margharitha Salicola virgo Boniensis
Venetis tam famosa theatris vicere musas.
Monica
To get on or off this list see list information at
[10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:adr...@gmail.com
2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
4. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
5. mailto:stephenwar...@verizon.net
6. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
7. mailto:stephenwar...@verizon.net
8. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
9. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Latin translation
Well, yes. If they defeated the muses (in an imaginary contest), it was
because they played better.
-Original Message-
From: Gary Boye
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 12:08 PM
To: stephen arndt ; Monica Hall ; Alan Hoyle
Cc: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Latin translation
Could it mean, in effect, that they played even better than the muses?
A bit of classical hyperbole typical of the times . . .
Gary
Dr. Gary R. Boye
Professor and Music Librarian
Appalachian State University
On 4/8/2015 12:51 PM, stephen arndt wrote:
If vicere is a noun in the ablative case, the sentence is left without a
verb, and then you have to explain why musas is in the accusative case.
If vicerex were a Latin word (it is not in Lewis and Short), the
ablative would be vicerege, not vicere. The latter is listed as a
poetic form of vincere by Lewis and Short. Morever, vincere musas was
a set phrase in Latin.
-Original Message- From: Monica Hall
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 11:06 AM
To: Alan Hoyle
Cc: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Latin translation
Maybe in the context it means deputized for or replaced the muses
in the theatre in Venice,
Monica
- Original Message -
From: [1]Alan Hoyle
To: [2]Monica Hall
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Latin translation
'Vicere' - I am not 100% positive, but I am pretty sure that this word
derives from 'vicerex' ('viceroy', 'substitute', 'vicar', 'embodiment
of'..) and is its ablative form, and has nothing to do with the
verb 'Vincere'
N.B. it is over 50 years since I made any serious study of Latin, and
although it may not have changed in that time, I most certainly have...
Alan
On 8 April 2015 at 16:42, Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
Thanks to Wikipedia . apparently
Margarita Salicola (floruit 1682 - 1706) was a famous opera singer
of her time. She came from a family of musicians at the court of the
Ferdinando Carlo Gonzaga, Duke of Mantua and became a staple of
casts at San Giovanni Grisostomo, Venice's newest and most famous
theater, in the 1680s. etc...
Corbetta was employed at the Mantuan Court - so presumably they
appeared together there at some point...
Monica
- Original Message - From: Monica Hall
[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
To: stephen arndt [5]stephenwar...@verizon.net
Cc: Lutelist [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 4:33 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Latin translation
Brilliant. Has anyone heard of a singer called Margarita Salicola?
Monica
- Original Message - From: stephen arndt
[7]stephenwar...@verizon.net
To: Monica Hall [8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Lutelist
[9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Latin translation
How about the following for a literal, if not very elegant,
translation?
By his strings that illustrious Italian Corbetto (and) by her voice
the so
famous Bolognese maiden Margharitha Salicola defeated the muses in
the
Venetian theaters.
I'm not exactly sure what defeated the muses refers to, apart from
excellence in performance. Perhaps it is a reference to the
daughters of
Pierus, who challenged the muses in a contest of song and were
turned into
magpies when defeated. (Similar stories are the challenge of Marsyas
to
Apollo in flute playing or that of Arachne to Athena in weaving.
There are
others, but I can't think of them right now.)
-Original Message- From: Monica Hall
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 10:02 AM
To: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Latin translation
I wonder if there is any Latin scholar on this list who could
translate
the
following brief reference to Corbetta...
Fidibus illustris ille Corbetto Italus
Voce Margharitha Salicola virgo Boniensis
Venetis tam famosa theatris vicere musas.
Monica
To get on or off this list see list information at
[10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:adr...@gmail.com
2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
4. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
5. mailto:stephenwar...@verizon.net
6. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
7. mailto:stephenwar...@verizon.net
8. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
9. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Latin translation
I wonder if there is any Latin scholar on this list who could translate the following brief reference to Corbetta... Fidibus illustris ille Corbetto Italus Voce Margharitha Salicola virgo Boniensis Venetis tam famosa theatris vicere musas. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Latin translation
Allowing for a bit of poetic licence how about..
With his guitar that illustrious Italian, Corbetto
By her voice, the most famous maid of Bologna, Margharitha Salicola
Surpassed the Muses in the Venetian theatres.
It is 17th century Latin and perhaps Adam Ebert who wrote it was not
perfect in Latin.
Anyway - thank you everybody for your thoughts on the matter.
Monica
___
- Original Message -
From: stephen arndt [1]stephenwar...@verizon.net
To: Gary Boye [2]boy...@appstate.edu; Monica Hall
[3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Alan Hoyle [4]adr...@gmail.com
Cc: Lutelist [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 6:28 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Latin translation
Well, yes. If they defeated the muses (in an imaginary contest), it
was
because they played better.
-Original Message-
From: Gary Boye
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 12:08 PM
To: stephen arndt ; Monica Hall ; Alan Hoyle
Cc: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Latin translation
Could it mean, in effect, that they played even better than the
muses?
A bit of classical hyperbole typical of the times . . .
Gary
Dr. Gary R. Boye
Professor and Music Librarian
Appalachian State University
On 4/8/2015 12:51 PM, stephen arndt wrote:
If vicere is a noun in the ablative case, the sentence is left
without a
verb, and then you have to explain why musas is in the accusative
case.
If vicerex were a Latin word (it is not in Lewis and Short), the
ablative would be vicerege, not vicere. The latter is listed as
a
poetic form of vincere by Lewis and Short. Morever, vincere
musas was
a set phrase in Latin.
-Original Message- From: Monica Hall
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 11:06 AM
To: Alan Hoyle
Cc: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Latin translation
Maybe in the context it means deputized for or replaced the
muses
in the theatre in Venice,
Monica
- Original Message -
From: [1]Alan Hoyle
To: [2]Monica Hall
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Latin translation
'Vicere' - I am not 100% positive, but I am pretty sure that this
word
derives from 'vicerex' ('viceroy', 'substitute', 'vicar',
'embodiment
of'..) and is its ablative form, and has nothing to do with
the
verb 'Vincere'
N.B. it is over 50 years since I made any serious study of Latin,
and
although it may not have changed in that time, I most certainly
have...
Alan
On 8 April 2015 at 16:42, Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
wrote:
Thanks to Wikipedia . apparently
Margarita Salicola (floruit 1682 - 1706) was a famous opera
singer
of her time. She came from a family of musicians at the court of
the
Ferdinando Carlo Gonzaga, Duke of Mantua and became a staple of
casts at San Giovanni Grisostomo, Venice's newest and most
famous
theater, in the 1680s. etc...
Corbetta was employed at the Mantuan Court - so presumably they
appeared together there at some point...
Monica
- Original Message - From: Monica Hall
[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
To: stephen arndt [5]stephenwar...@verizon.net
Cc: Lutelist [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 4:33 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Latin translation
Brilliant. Has anyone heard of a singer called Margarita
Salicola?
Monica
- Original Message - From: stephen arndt
[7]stephenwar...@verizon.net
To: Monica Hall [8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Lutelist
[9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Latin translation
How about the following for a literal, if not very elegant,
translation?
By his strings that illustrious Italian Corbetto (and) by her
voice
the so
famous Bolognese maiden Margharitha Salicola defeated the muses
in
the
Venetian theaters.
I'm not exactly sure what defeated the muses refers to, apart
from
excellence in performance. Perhaps it is a reference to the
daughters of
Pierus, who challenged the muses in a contest of song and were
turned into
magpies when defeated. (Similar stories are the challenge of
Marsyas
to
Apollo in flute playing or that of Arachne to Athena in weaving.
There are
others, but I can't think of them right now.)
-Original Message- From: Monica Hall
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 10:02 AM
To: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Latin translation
I wonder if there is any Latin
[LUTE] Re: Latin translation
Brilliant. Has anyone heard of a singer called Margarita Salicola? Monica - Original Message - From: stephen arndt stephenwar...@verizon.net To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 4:27 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Latin translation How about the following for a literal, if not very elegant, translation? By his strings that illustrious Italian Corbetto (and) by her voice the so famous Bolognese maiden Margharitha Salicola defeated the muses in the Venetian theaters. I'm not exactly sure what defeated the muses refers to, apart from excellence in performance. Perhaps it is a reference to the daughters of Pierus, who challenged the muses in a contest of song and were turned into magpies when defeated. (Similar stories are the challenge of Marsyas to Apollo in flute playing or that of Arachne to Athena in weaving. There are others, but I can't think of them right now.) -Original Message- From: Monica Hall Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 10:02 AM To: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Latin translation I wonder if there is any Latin scholar on this list who could translate the following brief reference to Corbetta... Fidibus illustris ille Corbetto Italus Voce Margharitha Salicola virgo Boniensis Venetis tam famosa theatris vicere musas. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Latin translation
Thanks to Wikipedia . apparently Margarita Salicola (floruit 1682 - 1706) was a famous opera singer of her time. She came from a family of musicians at the court of the Ferdinando Carlo Gonzaga, Duke of Mantua and became a staple of casts at San Giovanni Grisostomo, Venice's newest and most famous theater, in the 1680s. etc... Corbetta was employed at the Mantuan Court - so presumably they appeared together there at some point... Monica - Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: stephen arndt stephenwar...@verizon.net Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 4:33 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Latin translation Brilliant. Has anyone heard of a singer called Margarita Salicola? Monica - Original Message - From: stephen arndt stephenwar...@verizon.net To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 4:27 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Latin translation How about the following for a literal, if not very elegant, translation? By his strings that illustrious Italian Corbetto (and) by her voice the so famous Bolognese maiden Margharitha Salicola defeated the muses in the Venetian theaters. I'm not exactly sure what defeated the muses refers to, apart from excellence in performance. Perhaps it is a reference to the daughters of Pierus, who challenged the muses in a contest of song and were turned into magpies when defeated. (Similar stories are the challenge of Marsyas to Apollo in flute playing or that of Arachne to Athena in weaving. There are others, but I can't think of them right now.) -Original Message- From: Monica Hall Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 10:02 AM To: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Latin translation I wonder if there is any Latin scholar on this list who could translate the following brief reference to Corbetta... Fidibus illustris ille Corbetto Italus Voce Margharitha Salicola virgo Boniensis Venetis tam famosa theatris vicere musas. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Latin translation
If vicere is a noun in the ablative case, the sentence is left without a
verb, and then you have to explain why musas is in the accusative case. If
vicerex were a Latin word (it is not in Lewis and Short), the ablative
would be vicerege, not vicere. The latter is listed as a poetic form of
vincere by Lewis and Short. Morever, vincere musas was a set phrase in
Latin.
-Original Message-
From: Monica Hall
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 11:06 AM
To: Alan Hoyle
Cc: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Latin translation
Maybe in the context it means deputized for or replaced the muses
in the theatre in Venice,
Monica
- Original Message -
From: [1]Alan Hoyle
To: [2]Monica Hall
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Latin translation
'Vicere' - I am not 100% positive, but I am pretty sure that this word
derives from 'vicerex' ('viceroy', 'substitute', 'vicar', 'embodiment
of'..) and is its ablative form, and has nothing to do with the
verb 'Vincere'
N.B. it is over 50 years since I made any serious study of Latin, and
although it may not have changed in that time, I most certainly have...
Alan
On 8 April 2015 at 16:42, Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
Thanks to Wikipedia . apparently
Margarita Salicola (floruit 1682 - 1706) was a famous opera singer
of her time. She came from a family of musicians at the court of the
Ferdinando Carlo Gonzaga, Duke of Mantua and became a staple of
casts at San Giovanni Grisostomo, Venice's newest and most famous
theater, in the 1680s. etc...
Corbetta was employed at the Mantuan Court - so presumably they
appeared together there at some point...
Monica
- Original Message - From: Monica Hall
[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
To: stephen arndt [5]stephenwar...@verizon.net
Cc: Lutelist [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 4:33 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Latin translation
Brilliant. Has anyone heard of a singer called Margarita Salicola?
Monica
- Original Message - From: stephen arndt
[7]stephenwar...@verizon.net
To: Monica Hall [8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Lutelist
[9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Latin translation
How about the following for a literal, if not very elegant,
translation?
By his strings that illustrious Italian Corbetto (and) by her voice
the so
famous Bolognese maiden Margharitha Salicola defeated the muses in
the
Venetian theaters.
I'm not exactly sure what defeated the muses refers to, apart from
excellence in performance. Perhaps it is a reference to the
daughters of
Pierus, who challenged the muses in a contest of song and were
turned into
magpies when defeated. (Similar stories are the challenge of Marsyas
to
Apollo in flute playing or that of Arachne to Athena in weaving.
There are
others, but I can't think of them right now.)
-Original Message- From: Monica Hall
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 10:02 AM
To: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Latin translation
I wonder if there is any Latin scholar on this list who could
translate
the
following brief reference to Corbetta...
Fidibus illustris ille Corbetto Italus
Voce Margharitha Salicola virgo Boniensis
Venetis tam famosa theatris vicere musas.
Monica
To get on or off this list see list information at
[10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:adr...@gmail.com
2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
4. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
5. mailto:stephenwar...@verizon.net
6. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
7. mailto:stephenwar...@verizon.net
8. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
9. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Latin translation
hi, i just read that the german (tyrole) name of cardinal Christoph Madruzzo is Madrutsch. wolfgang w.
Re: Latin translation
Gimme a break, Mat, Did you really have to show off that you can actually read the details, wasn't enough that I pointed out that it appeared to be a normal flowery dedication to the patron? Very Big Grin. My compliments to one who yet remembers his declensions and cases without having to back to the book - you hadn't the time to do that. But I'll challenge you on reading Gaelic (and I do have to go to the book). But how did you pick off Brescia as the name of the town, with the number of changes in town names over the centuries I would have thought it could be almost anywhere. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 9:39 AM Subject: Re: Latin translation To my most illustrious and venerable lord, the lord Christophorus Madrucius, Cardinal and Prince of Trient and adminstrator of Brescia, my most dear lord It was an old farmers' custom, most illustrious Prince, to spend the first fruits to those Deities who would take care for them, as was supposed, in order to bear witness to the farmers' piety toward the Deities by such a deed. In imitation of that fashion, I have wished to dedicate these little fruits of my labours to you. For this, I have no other reason than to show obedience and loyalty of an attendant, who has long been dependent on you. Furthermore, I have reckoned it timely to offer to you something which, I thought, might please and attract you. Such is the music whose art and students you have always favoured and nourished, knowing that among other famous ornaments which pertain to the enlightenment of a Prince, the study of music must not be despised. As regards the days when it was highly esteemed in ancient Greece, particularly music of stringed instruments with changing strikes of melody, it is known that commandments regarding music were not less hallowed than those regarding nutrition or personal hygiene. Plato held music necessary for general welfare. Lycurgus, himself a very wise legislator, judged that military exercises cannot be appropiately conducted without musical melodies. For these reasons I hope that you will accept my merry play. Although it may be very light, under your protection it will nevertheless seem more sober and honourable and will achieve great influence from your fabulous reputation and will therefore perhaps be proved and endorsed, being adorned and protected by your name against the stings of critics. Furthermore it will be a proof of your education that these little things will be measured not by its matial shape but by its intellectual contents. For even to king Artaxerxes a bottle of dirty water, that a farmer had brought him in deep devotion, was most pleasurable and welcome. - Farewell! Gintzler 1547. Hope that will help, Gøran. -- Best wishes, Mathias Mathias Roesel, Grosze Annenstrasze 5, 28199 Bremen, Deutschland/ Germany, T/F +49 - 421 - 165 49 97, Fax +49 1805 060 334 480 67, E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Latin translation
brixen = bressanone (ancient = pressena...) south tyrol in italy is bilingual german/italian Dr. Wolfgang Wiehe Zentrales Analytisches Labor BTU-Cottbus []\ (_) www.zal.tu-cottbus.de
Re: Latin translation
Dear Paolo, [DEL:I would like to suggest that the correct= family name of the cardinal :DEL] [DEL:is not Madruzzi or Madruzzo, but Madruzz= a (I have personal :DEL] [DEL: aquaintenace with the family) :DEL] You might be right, but as far I recollect in musicological stu= dies the Cardinal is called usually as Madruzzo. I made a short check, and it seems indeed, tha= t at least for him the name 'Madruzzo' is used. Best regards, Peter Király- Peter Király Glockenstr. 34 D-67655 Kaiserslautern T/Fax. (00)49 631 69866 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Latin translation
Dear List, I'm boldly hoping that any of the linguists in this well-informed assembly might take the trouble to translate this short foreword text for us: Illustrissimo AC Reverendissimo Domino Domino Christophoro Madrucio Cardinale ac Principe Tridenti Et administratori Briximen. Domino meo Colendissimo. Vetus agricolarum consuetudo fuit, Princeps Illustrissime, ut omnium frugum primitias Dijs, quibus illas curæ esse existimarent, relligiose libarent, ut scilicet pietatem erga ipsos hoc pacto testarentur. Hunc igitur ego morem imitans, hos exiguos meorum laborum fætus tibi nuncupare volui: non alia mempe de causa. quam ut servi iam diu tibi addictissimi observantiam clientelaq3 ostenderem: tum etiam, quia tempestiuum arbitratus sum si id tibi offerrem. quo delectari te, atq3 capi animadverterim. Cuiusmodi estipsa Musica, Cuius artem, eiusq3 studiosos omnes fovisti semper ac alvisti, nimirum ratus inter cætera preclara ornamenta, que ad Principem Illustrandum pertinent, musices studium haud esse aspernandum. Quandoquidem hec apud grecos olim tante venerationis cureq3 fuit, presertim ista que in modulata chordarum pulsatione constat. ut non minus de ea. quam de victu. cultuq3 corporis precepta sancirent. Hanc Plato Republice necessariam esse credidit. Lygurgus ille quodq3 sapientissimus legum conditor. rei bellicæ studium sine musicis modulis, haud recte constare arbitratus est. His itaq3 causis, hec mea ludicra læta te suscepturum frone spero. Que si levissima sint, sub tuis tamen auspicijs prodeuntia graviora honestioraq3 videbuntur, magnamq3 ex tui nominis celebritate auctoritatem adipiscentur. ideo q3 inspicientur forcitam probabuntur. quia tuo nomine ornata munitaq3 adversus censorum calumnias erunt tuæ porro humanitatis erit, hoc quidquid est nugarum. non ex re. sed ex animo metiri nam Artoxerxi, sordidæ aquæ uter. Summa animi devotione a rustico delatus, incundissimus. gratissimus q3 fuit. Vale fæliciter It's from the Gintzler 1547. Best Regards Göran
Re: Latin translation
To my most illustrious and venerable lord, the lord Christophorus Madrucius, Cardinal and Prince of Trient and adminstrator of Brescia, my most dear lord It was an old farmers' custom, most illustrious Prince, to spend the first fruits to those Deities who would take care for them, as was supposed, in order to bear witness to the farmers' piety toward the Deities by such a deed. In imitation of that fashion, I have wished to dedicate these little fruits of my labours to you. For this, I have no other reason than to show obedience and loyalty of an attendant, who has long been dependent on you. Furthermore, I have reckoned it timely to offer to you something which, I thought, might please and attract you. Such is the music whose art and students you have always favoured and nourished, knowing that among other famous ornaments which pertain to the enlightenment of a Prince, the study of music must not be despised. As regards the days when it was highly esteemed in ancient Greece, particularly music of stringed instruments with changing strikes of melody, it is known that commandments regarding music were not less hallowed than those regarding nutrition or personal hygiene. Plato held music necessary for general welfare. Lycurgus, himself a very wise legislator, judged that military exercises cannot be appropiately conducted without musical melodies. For these reasons I hope that you will accept my merry play. Although it may be very light, under your protection it will nevertheless seem more sober and honourable and will achieve great influence from your fabulous reputation and will therefore perhaps be proved and endorsed, being adorned and protected by your name against the stings of critics. Furthermore it will be a proof of your education that these little things will be measured not by its matial shape but by its intellectual contents. For even to king Artaxerxes a bottle of dirty water, that a farmer had brought him in deep devotion, was most pleasurable and welcome. - Farewell! Gintzler 1547. Hope that will help, Gøran. -- Best wishes, Mathias Mathias Roesel, Grosze Annenstrasze 5, 28199 Bremen, Deutschland/ Germany, T/F +49 - 421 - 165 49 97, Fax +49 1805 060 334 480 67, E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
