Re: Question concerning lyx pdf documents and German Umlaute

[Guenter Milde]

On 2013-09-08, Matthias Jobst wrote:

 [-- Type: text/plain, Encoding: quoted-printable --]

 Hello!

 I have got a question concerning the font encoding in lyx.

 I want to create a German document, that is searchable. Unfortunenatly
 it is not possible to search for words like Bücher oder Dänemark.
 If I want to copy the word from the document into a text editor, all
 German umlaute are broken. (Bucher or Danemark)

This is strange. It works very nice here with the LyX default (T1) font
encoding. Maybe you use the OT1 font encoding.

...

 I also tried some of the font encoding options like utf8 or utf8x, but
 that doesn't work

These are not *font* encodings but the encoding of the LaTeX input (the
*.tex source file).

 Does anybody know a solution to this problem?

Try to figure out how to set the font encoding to T1 (e.g. in
ToolsConfiguration).

Günter

Re: Question concerning lyx pdf documents and German Umlaute

[Marcus Glöder]

Am 08.09.2013 18:08, schrieb Matthias Jobst:

Hello!

I have got a question concerning the font encoding in lyx.


Hello Matthias,

I have download your document. If you go to Dokument – Einstellungen – 
Sprache – Kodierung (in English: Document – Preferences – Language – 
Encoding) and click at »Voreinstellung der gewählten Sprache« (in 
English: Default of the selected language), than it works.



Does anybody know a solution to this problem?


I hope, that is helpfully.



Matthias



Best regards
Marcus

--
PMs:  m.gloe...@gmx.de

Re: Question concerning lyx pdf documents and German Umlaute

[Guenter Milde]

On 2013-09-08, Matthias Jobst wrote:

> [-- Type: text/plain, Encoding: quoted-printable --]

> Hello!

> I have got a question concerning the font encoding in lyx.

> I want to create a German document, that is searchable. Unfortunenatly
> it is not possible to search for words like "Bücher" oder "Dänemark".
> If I want to copy the word from the document into a text editor, all
> German umlaute are broken. (Bucher or Danemark)

This is strange. It works very nice here with the LyX default (T1) font
encoding. Maybe you use the OT1 font encoding.

...

> I also tried some of the font encoding options like utf8 or utf8x, but
> that doesn't work

These are not *font* encodings but the encoding of the LaTeX input (the
*.tex source file).

> Does anybody know a solution to this problem?

Try to figure out how to set the font encoding to T1 (e.g. in
Tools>Configuration).

Günter

Re: Question concerning lyx pdf documents and German Umlaute

[Marcus Glöder]

Am 08.09.2013 18:08, schrieb Matthias Jobst:

Hello!

I have got a question concerning the font encoding in lyx.


Hello Matthias,

I have download your document. If you go to Dokument –> Einstellungen –> 
Sprache –> Kodierung (in English: Document –> Preferences –> Language –> 
Encoding) and click at »Voreinstellung der gewählten Sprache« (in 
English: Default of the selected language), than it works.



Does anybody know a solution to this problem?


I hope, that is helpfully.



Matthias



Best regards
Marcus

--
PMs:  m.gloe...@gmx.de

Re: Question #3: LyX and LaTeX and TeX

[Wolfgang Keller]

 LyX strives to offer an authoring environment that requires no (or
 truly minimal) knowledge of LaTeX. 

And this feature is pretty foolproof.

As proven by this fool. ;-

 In practice, however, rudimentary LaTeX knowledge is always required
 when working with LyX,

You can learn all that from the manuals while authoring your first
document with LyX. I did it exactly that way myself.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

Re: Question #3: LyX and LaTeX and TeX

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 3 Sep 2013 14:46:20 +0200
Wolfgang Keller felip...@gmx.net wrote:

  LyX strives to offer an authoring environment that requires no (or
  truly minimal) knowledge of LaTeX. 
 
 And this feature is pretty foolproof.
 
 As proven by this fool. ;-
 
  In practice, however, rudimentary LaTeX knowledge is always required
  when working with LyX,
 
 You can learn all that from the manuals while authoring your first
 document with LyX. I did it exactly that way myself.

And when you do it that way, my strong suggestion is that when, while
writing, you find need for a new environment, you spend minimal time
creating that environment (maybe a Copystyle plus margin change plus a
semi-distinctive font on both LyX environment and PDF output), and
then, when you have several consecutive hours to do nothing but LaTeX,
tweak your environments to be how you want them to be.

My experience tells me it's better to wear one hat at a time: Either
you're a writer or a LaTeX (wannabe) expert, and when you wear one of
these hats you should be able to devote several consecutive hours to
it, because they don't mix well.

HTH,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Re: Question #3: LyX and LaTeX and TeX

[Wolfgang Keller]

 LyX strives to offer an authoring environment that requires no (or
 truly minimal) knowledge of LaTeX. 

And this feature is pretty foolproof.

As proven by this fool. ;-

 In practice, however, rudimentary LaTeX knowledge is always required
 when working with LyX,

You can learn all that from the manuals while authoring your first
document with LyX. I did it exactly that way myself.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

Re: Question #3: LyX and LaTeX and TeX

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 3 Sep 2013 14:46:20 +0200
Wolfgang Keller felip...@gmx.net wrote:

  LyX strives to offer an authoring environment that requires no (or
  truly minimal) knowledge of LaTeX. 
 
 And this feature is pretty foolproof.
 
 As proven by this fool. ;-
 
  In practice, however, rudimentary LaTeX knowledge is always required
  when working with LyX,
 
 You can learn all that from the manuals while authoring your first
 document with LyX. I did it exactly that way myself.

And when you do it that way, my strong suggestion is that when, while
writing, you find need for a new environment, you spend minimal time
creating that environment (maybe a Copystyle plus margin change plus a
semi-distinctive font on both LyX environment and PDF output), and
then, when you have several consecutive hours to do nothing but LaTeX,
tweak your environments to be how you want them to be.

My experience tells me it's better to wear one hat at a time: Either
you're a writer or a LaTeX (wannabe) expert, and when you wear one of
these hats you should be able to devote several consecutive hours to
it, because they don't mix well.

HTH,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Re: Question #3: LyX and LaTeX and TeX

[Wolfgang Keller]

> LyX strives to offer an authoring environment that requires no (or
> truly minimal) knowledge of LaTeX. 

And this feature is pretty foolproof.

As proven by this fool. >;->

> In practice, however, rudimentary LaTeX knowledge is always required
> when working with LyX,

You can learn all that from the manuals while authoring your first
document with LyX. I did it exactly that way myself.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

Re: Question #3: LyX and LaTeX and TeX

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 3 Sep 2013 14:46:20 +0200
Wolfgang Keller  wrote:

> > LyX strives to offer an authoring environment that requires no (or
> > truly minimal) knowledge of LaTeX. 
> 
> And this feature is pretty foolproof.
> 
> As proven by this fool. >;->
> 
> > In practice, however, rudimentary LaTeX knowledge is always required
> > when working with LyX,
> 
> You can learn all that from the manuals while authoring your first
> document with LyX. I did it exactly that way myself.

And when you do it that way, my strong suggestion is that when, while
writing, you find need for a new environment, you spend minimal time
creating that environment (maybe a Copystyle plus margin change plus a
semi-distinctive font on both LyX environment and PDF output), and
then, when you have several consecutive hours to do nothing but LaTeX,
tweak your environments to be how you want them to be.

My experience tells me it's better to wear one hat at a time: Either
you're a writer or a LaTeX (wannabe) expert, and when you wear one of
these hats you should be able to devote several consecutive hours to
it, because they don't mix well.

HTH,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Re: Question #3: LyX and LaTeX and TeX

[Richard Heck]

On 09/02/2013 01:02 AM, Alan L Tyree wrote:

Ken Springer writes:


On 9/1/13 11:06 AM, Steve Litt wrote:

On Sun, 1 Sep 2013 08:29:23 +0200
Liviu Andronic landronim...@gmail.com wrote:

snip

It sounds as if Lyx/LaTeX has a higher learning curve than I was hoping for.

But it intrigues me.   :-)  I've got some simple help documents I want
to create, and I want them to look as best as I can.  So, I think, in
about a month when I'm out of work again, I'll download LaTeX and work
with it, then get into LyX.

FWIW, I don't agree with this. You can become productive with LyX *very*
quickly without knowing anything about LaTeX. You can produce nice
looking standardised documents. It's magic.

Of course, you will eventually want to customise. THAT is the time to
start looking at LaTeX IMHO.


I agree. We have LyX developers who know almost no LaTeX, and who use 
LyX extensively

in their own work.

The question is exactly how much customization you want to do. If the 
standard classes work
for you, and in many cases they will, then you do not need to know any 
LaTeX to use LyX.
Even the unexpected compilation errors should be rare. These are usually 
due to precisely

the kind of customization you don't really have to do.

Richard

Re: Question #3: LyX and LaTeX and TeX

[Richard Heck]

On 09/02/2013 01:02 AM, Alan L Tyree wrote:

Ken Springer writes:


On 9/1/13 11:06 AM, Steve Litt wrote:

On Sun, 1 Sep 2013 08:29:23 +0200
Liviu Andronic landronim...@gmail.com wrote:

snip

It sounds as if Lyx/LaTeX has a higher learning curve than I was hoping for.

But it intrigues me.   :-)  I've got some simple help documents I want
to create, and I want them to look as best as I can.  So, I think, in
about a month when I'm out of work again, I'll download LaTeX and work
with it, then get into LyX.

FWIW, I don't agree with this. You can become productive with LyX *very*
quickly without knowing anything about LaTeX. You can produce nice
looking standardised documents. It's magic.

Of course, you will eventually want to customise. THAT is the time to
start looking at LaTeX IMHO.


I agree. We have LyX developers who know almost no LaTeX, and who use 
LyX extensively

in their own work.

The question is exactly how much customization you want to do. If the 
standard classes work
for you, and in many cases they will, then you do not need to know any 
LaTeX to use LyX.
Even the unexpected compilation errors should be rare. These are usually 
due to precisely

the kind of customization you don't really have to do.

Richard

Re: Question #3: LyX and LaTeX and TeX

[Richard Heck]

On 09/02/2013 01:02 AM, Alan L Tyree wrote:

Ken Springer writes:


On 9/1/13 11:06 AM, Steve Litt wrote:

On Sun, 1 Sep 2013 08:29:23 +0200
Liviu Andronic  wrote:



It sounds as if Lyx/LaTeX has a higher learning curve than I was hoping for.

But it intrigues me.   :-)  I've got some simple help documents I want
to create, and I want them to look as best as I can.  So, I think, in
about a month when I'm out of work again, I'll download LaTeX and work
with it, then get into LyX.

FWIW, I don't agree with this. You can become productive with LyX *very*
quickly without knowing anything about LaTeX. You can produce nice
looking standardised documents. It's magic.

Of course, you will eventually want to customise. THAT is the time to
start looking at LaTeX IMHO.


I agree. We have LyX developers who know almost no LaTeX, and who use 
LyX extensively

in their own work.

The question is exactly how much customization you want to do. If the 
standard classes work
for you, and in many cases they will, then you do not need to know any 
LaTeX to use LyX.
Even the unexpected compilation errors should be rare. These are usually 
due to precisely

the kind of customization you don't really have to do.

Richard

Re: Question #3: LyX and LaTeX and TeX

[Liviu Andronic]

On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 at 5:10 AM, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote:
 If I'm going to try out LyX in the end, would it be of any value to me to do
 a little experimenting with LaTeX and Tex first, or just jump in the pool?

LyX strives to offer an authoring environment that requires no (or
truly minimal) knowledge of LaTeX. In practice, however, rudimentary
LaTeX knowledge is always required when working with LyX, be it when
setting up your bibliography, understanding the UI structures,
inserting appropriate symbols or when dealing with unexpected
compilation errors.

I'd say that LyX works very well for novices to learn the basics of
LaTeX. Work on your document and see in View  Source how LyX prepares
the LaTeX code for you. So best would be not to worry about LaTeX too
much in the beginning; you'll pick it up on the way.

The most time-consuming part of learning LyX is making your first
document. So a good way to proceed would be to make your way through
the Introduction and the Tutorial (and maybe the LyX Essentials:
https://sites.google.com/site/tsewiki/resources/latex ), and then
start creating some not-very-important document. In the process you'll
start learning a lot of things LaTeX (and LyX).

Regards,
Liviu

Re: Question #3: LyX and LaTeX and TeX

[Steve Litt]

On Sun, 1 Sep 2013 08:29:23 +0200
Liviu Andronic landronim...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 at 5:10 AM, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote:
  If I'm going to try out LyX in the end, would it be of any value to
  me to do a little experimenting with LaTeX and Tex first, or just
  jump in the pool?
 
 LyX strives to offer an authoring environment that requires no (or
 truly minimal) knowledge of LaTeX. In practice, however, rudimentary
 LaTeX knowledge is always required when working with LyX, be it when
 setting up your bibliography, understanding the UI structures,
 inserting appropriate symbols or when dealing with unexpected
 compilation errors.

I'd add that if you want to add your own environments and make them
look a certain way, LyX requires a *huge* knowledge of LaTeX. This fact
doesn't materially contradict anything you write in the rest of this
document.

The way I work is, when finding a need for a new environment or
character style, I immediately put it in, perhaps with a CopyStyle,
using just enough LaTeX to make it look different from surrounding
text, even if it's nothing like my desires for the finished product.
Ellapsed time, 3 to 5 minutes, and I'm back to banging out verbiage.

Then, on a day when I'm not whomping out content, I'll search-engine
all over the place finding out what I need in order to achieve my
desired look, experiment, and code it.

Sometimes, when it's super-challenging, I do the whole thing in LaTeX
first, and only after the LaTeX is perfect do I port it to LyX. Doing
it this way limits the number of variables involved, increases
understanding, and *greatly* reduces the time consumed by each
change/compile/view cycle.

And this discussion wouldn't be complete without adding that a lot of
people have outstanding memories and ability to search CTAN, and can
find package solutions so they need no LaTeX knowledge at all (though a
lot of those same people have a lot more LaTeX knowledge than I do.) If
you want to become one of these people, I'd highly recommend starting
with the LaTeX Configuration manual available under Help. It lists a
whole lot of handy packages. The more packages you know and can use,
the less LaTeX you need to know.

 
 I'd say that LyX works very well for novices to learn the basics of
 LaTeX. Work on your document and see in View  Source how LyX prepares
 the LaTeX code for you. So best would be not to worry about LaTeX too
 much in the beginning; you'll pick it up on the way.
 
 The most time-consuming part of learning LyX is making your first
 document. 

Which isn't very time consuming. You run LyX, say File-New, and start
typing. Paragraph styles, which we call Environments, are available
from a dropdown on the toolbar. Character styles are available from
Edit-Text_Style on the menu.

 So a good way to proceed would be to make your way through
 the Introduction and the Tutorial (and maybe the LyX Essentials:
 https://sites.google.com/site/tsewiki/resources/latex ), and then
 start creating some not-very-important document. In the process you'll
 start learning a lot of things LaTeX (and LyX).

Pre-Cisely! I didn't read the tutorial first, and was sorry about that
later. Also, the User's Guide is a vital part of your every day lookups.

Actually, every document listed under LyX's Help menu is very useful,
but these are especially so. And once you're using styles (environments
and character styles), be sure to look at the Customization manual
under Paragraph styles (search is the easiest way to find it), and
search Flex Insets to find the section about character styles.

When you DO need LaTeX, I've written some easy to read stuff here:

* http://www.troubleshooters.com/lpm/200210/200210.htm
* http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/lyx/lyx_latex_tex.htm
* http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/lyx/ownlists.htm

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Re: Question #3: LyX and LaTeX and TeX

[John Kane]

I'd say a little LaTeX knowledge is useful--don't overdo it.  I put together a 
14 page report in LateX that taught me enough about some of the underlying 
mechanics of LyX to be helpful.

I don't think I'm ever going to be an exclusive LaTeX user..




 From: Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com
To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org 
Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 11:10:54 PM
Subject: Question #3:   LyX and LaTeX and TeX
 

First, another thanks for all the replies to my thread about using LyX 
as a word processor.

In reading some of those replies, I'm left wondering a bit about LyX and 
LaTeX and their relationship.  As well as TeX, for that matter.

When I was really into learning a bit about desktop publishing, I bought 
a copy of Donald Knuth's books, The TeXbook and The METAfontbook, but 
never read them.

If I'm going to try out LyX in the end, would it be of any value to me 
to do a little experimenting with LaTeX and Tex first, or just jump in 
the pool?    LOL

-- 
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.04

Re: Question #3: LyX and LaTeX and TeX

[Ken Springer]

On 9/1/13 11:06 AM, Steve Litt wrote:

On Sun, 1 Sep 2013 08:29:23 +0200
Liviu Andronic landronim...@gmail.com wrote:


snip

It sounds as if Lyx/LaTeX has a higher learning curve than I was hoping for.

But it intrigues me.   :-)  I've got some simple help documents I want 
to create, and I want them to look as best as I can.  So, I think, in 
about a month when I'm out of work again, I'll download LaTeX and work 
with it, then get into LyX.


Thanks to everyone for all the advice offered.


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.04

Re: Question #3: LyX and LaTeX and TeX

[Alan L Tyree]

Ken Springer writes:

 On 9/1/13 11:06 AM, Steve Litt wrote:
 On Sun, 1 Sep 2013 08:29:23 +0200
 Liviu Andronic landronim...@gmail.com wrote:

 snip

 It sounds as if Lyx/LaTeX has a higher learning curve than I was hoping for.

 But it intrigues me.   :-)  I've got some simple help documents I want 
 to create, and I want them to look as best as I can.  So, I think, in 
 about a month when I'm out of work again, I'll download LaTeX and work 
 with it, then get into LyX.
FWIW, I don't agree with this. You can become productive with LyX *very*
quickly without knowing anything about LaTeX. You can produce nice
looking standardised documents. It's magic.

Of course, you will eventually want to customise. THAT is the time to
start looking at LaTeX IMHO.

Cheers,
Alan


 Thanks to everyone for all the advice offered.


-- 
Alan L Tyree   http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
Tel:  04 2748 6206 sip:172...@iptel.org

Re: Question #3: LyX and LaTeX and TeX

[Josh Hieronymus]

On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Alan L Tyree alanty...@gmail.com wrote:


 Ken Springer writes:

  On 9/1/13 11:06 AM, Steve Litt wrote:
  On Sun, 1 Sep 2013 08:29:23 +0200
  Liviu Andronic landronim...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  snip
 
  It sounds as if Lyx/LaTeX has a higher learning curve than I was hoping
 for.
 
  But it intrigues me.   :-)  I've got some simple help documents I want
  to create, and I want them to look as best as I can.  So, I think, in
  about a month when I'm out of work again, I'll download LaTeX and work
  with it, then get into LyX.
 FWIW, I don't agree with this. You can become productive with LyX *very*
 quickly without knowing anything about LaTeX. You can produce nice
 looking standardised documents. It's magic.


Seconded. I began using LyX to typeset assignments for a logic class back
when I still didn't have any real knowledge of LaTeX (not that my LaTeX
knowledge is all that extensive now), and things more or less just turned
out nice and well-formatted without any effort on my part.


 Of course, you will eventually want to customise. THAT is the time to
 start looking at LaTeX IMHO.

 Cheers,
 Alan

 
  Thanks to everyone for all the advice offered.


 --
 Alan L Tyree   http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
 Tel:  04 2748 6206 sip:172...@iptel.org

Re: Question #3: LyX and LaTeX and TeX

[Gordon Cooper]

On 02/09/13 17:02, Alan L Tyree wrote:

  You can become productive with LyX*very*
quickly without knowing anything about LaTeX.



Agreed!   I wish that Lyx had been available back in the
1960's when we had to produce a heap of technical training
manuals - very quickly.

Gordon
Tauranga N.Z.

Re: Question #3: LyX and LaTeX and TeX

[Liviu Andronic]

On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 at 5:10 AM, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote:
 If I'm going to try out LyX in the end, would it be of any value to me to do
 a little experimenting with LaTeX and Tex first, or just jump in the pool?

LyX strives to offer an authoring environment that requires no (or
truly minimal) knowledge of LaTeX. In practice, however, rudimentary
LaTeX knowledge is always required when working with LyX, be it when
setting up your bibliography, understanding the UI structures,
inserting appropriate symbols or when dealing with unexpected
compilation errors.

I'd say that LyX works very well for novices to learn the basics of
LaTeX. Work on your document and see in View  Source how LyX prepares
the LaTeX code for you. So best would be not to worry about LaTeX too
much in the beginning; you'll pick it up on the way.

The most time-consuming part of learning LyX is making your first
document. So a good way to proceed would be to make your way through
the Introduction and the Tutorial (and maybe the LyX Essentials:
https://sites.google.com/site/tsewiki/resources/latex ), and then
start creating some not-very-important document. In the process you'll
start learning a lot of things LaTeX (and LyX).

Regards,
Liviu

Re: Question #3: LyX and LaTeX and TeX

[Steve Litt]

On Sun, 1 Sep 2013 08:29:23 +0200
Liviu Andronic landronim...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 at 5:10 AM, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote:
  If I'm going to try out LyX in the end, would it be of any value to
  me to do a little experimenting with LaTeX and Tex first, or just
  jump in the pool?
 
 LyX strives to offer an authoring environment that requires no (or
 truly minimal) knowledge of LaTeX. In practice, however, rudimentary
 LaTeX knowledge is always required when working with LyX, be it when
 setting up your bibliography, understanding the UI structures,
 inserting appropriate symbols or when dealing with unexpected
 compilation errors.

I'd add that if you want to add your own environments and make them
look a certain way, LyX requires a *huge* knowledge of LaTeX. This fact
doesn't materially contradict anything you write in the rest of this
document.

The way I work is, when finding a need for a new environment or
character style, I immediately put it in, perhaps with a CopyStyle,
using just enough LaTeX to make it look different from surrounding
text, even if it's nothing like my desires for the finished product.
Ellapsed time, 3 to 5 minutes, and I'm back to banging out verbiage.

Then, on a day when I'm not whomping out content, I'll search-engine
all over the place finding out what I need in order to achieve my
desired look, experiment, and code it.

Sometimes, when it's super-challenging, I do the whole thing in LaTeX
first, and only after the LaTeX is perfect do I port it to LyX. Doing
it this way limits the number of variables involved, increases
understanding, and *greatly* reduces the time consumed by each
change/compile/view cycle.

And this discussion wouldn't be complete without adding that a lot of
people have outstanding memories and ability to search CTAN, and can
find package solutions so they need no LaTeX knowledge at all (though a
lot of those same people have a lot more LaTeX knowledge than I do.) If
you want to become one of these people, I'd highly recommend starting
with the LaTeX Configuration manual available under Help. It lists a
whole lot of handy packages. The more packages you know and can use,
the less LaTeX you need to know.

 
 I'd say that LyX works very well for novices to learn the basics of
 LaTeX. Work on your document and see in View  Source how LyX prepares
 the LaTeX code for you. So best would be not to worry about LaTeX too
 much in the beginning; you'll pick it up on the way.
 
 The most time-consuming part of learning LyX is making your first
 document. 

Which isn't very time consuming. You run LyX, say File-New, and start
typing. Paragraph styles, which we call Environments, are available
from a dropdown on the toolbar. Character styles are available from
Edit-Text_Style on the menu.

 So a good way to proceed would be to make your way through
 the Introduction and the Tutorial (and maybe the LyX Essentials:
 https://sites.google.com/site/tsewiki/resources/latex ), and then
 start creating some not-very-important document. In the process you'll
 start learning a lot of things LaTeX (and LyX).

Pre-Cisely! I didn't read the tutorial first, and was sorry about that
later. Also, the User's Guide is a vital part of your every day lookups.

Actually, every document listed under LyX's Help menu is very useful,
but these are especially so. And once you're using styles (environments
and character styles), be sure to look at the Customization manual
under Paragraph styles (search is the easiest way to find it), and
search Flex Insets to find the section about character styles.

When you DO need LaTeX, I've written some easy to read stuff here:

* http://www.troubleshooters.com/lpm/200210/200210.htm
* http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/lyx/lyx_latex_tex.htm
* http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/lyx/ownlists.htm

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Re: Question #3: LyX and LaTeX and TeX

[John Kane]

I'd say a little LaTeX knowledge is useful--don't overdo it.  I put together a 
14 page report in LateX that taught me enough about some of the underlying 
mechanics of LyX to be helpful.

I don't think I'm ever going to be an exclusive LaTeX user..




 From: Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com
To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org 
Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 11:10:54 PM
Subject: Question #3:   LyX and LaTeX and TeX
 

First, another thanks for all the replies to my thread about using LyX 
as a word processor.

In reading some of those replies, I'm left wondering a bit about LyX and 
LaTeX and their relationship.  As well as TeX, for that matter.

When I was really into learning a bit about desktop publishing, I bought 
a copy of Donald Knuth's books, The TeXbook and The METAfontbook, but 
never read them.

If I'm going to try out LyX in the end, would it be of any value to me 
to do a little experimenting with LaTeX and Tex first, or just jump in 
the pool?    LOL

-- 
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.04

Re: Question #3: LyX and LaTeX and TeX

[Ken Springer]

On 9/1/13 11:06 AM, Steve Litt wrote:

On Sun, 1 Sep 2013 08:29:23 +0200
Liviu Andronic landronim...@gmail.com wrote:


snip

It sounds as if Lyx/LaTeX has a higher learning curve than I was hoping for.

But it intrigues me.   :-)  I've got some simple help documents I want 
to create, and I want them to look as best as I can.  So, I think, in 
about a month when I'm out of work again, I'll download LaTeX and work 
with it, then get into LyX.


Thanks to everyone for all the advice offered.


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.04

Re: Question #3: LyX and LaTeX and TeX

[Alan L Tyree]

Ken Springer writes:

 On 9/1/13 11:06 AM, Steve Litt wrote:
 On Sun, 1 Sep 2013 08:29:23 +0200
 Liviu Andronic landronim...@gmail.com wrote:

 snip

 It sounds as if Lyx/LaTeX has a higher learning curve than I was hoping for.

 But it intrigues me.   :-)  I've got some simple help documents I want 
 to create, and I want them to look as best as I can.  So, I think, in 
 about a month when I'm out of work again, I'll download LaTeX and work 
 with it, then get into LyX.
FWIW, I don't agree with this. You can become productive with LyX *very*
quickly without knowing anything about LaTeX. You can produce nice
looking standardised documents. It's magic.

Of course, you will eventually want to customise. THAT is the time to
start looking at LaTeX IMHO.

Cheers,
Alan


 Thanks to everyone for all the advice offered.


-- 
Alan L Tyree   http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
Tel:  04 2748 6206 sip:172...@iptel.org

Re: Question #3: LyX and LaTeX and TeX

[Josh Hieronymus]

On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Alan L Tyree alanty...@gmail.com wrote:


 Ken Springer writes:

  On 9/1/13 11:06 AM, Steve Litt wrote:
  On Sun, 1 Sep 2013 08:29:23 +0200
  Liviu Andronic landronim...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  snip
 
  It sounds as if Lyx/LaTeX has a higher learning curve than I was hoping
 for.
 
  But it intrigues me.   :-)  I've got some simple help documents I want
  to create, and I want them to look as best as I can.  So, I think, in
  about a month when I'm out of work again, I'll download LaTeX and work
  with it, then get into LyX.
 FWIW, I don't agree with this. You can become productive with LyX *very*
 quickly without knowing anything about LaTeX. You can produce nice
 looking standardised documents. It's magic.


Seconded. I began using LyX to typeset assignments for a logic class back
when I still didn't have any real knowledge of LaTeX (not that my LaTeX
knowledge is all that extensive now), and things more or less just turned
out nice and well-formatted without any effort on my part.


 Of course, you will eventually want to customise. THAT is the time to
 start looking at LaTeX IMHO.

 Cheers,
 Alan

 
  Thanks to everyone for all the advice offered.


 --
 Alan L Tyree   http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
 Tel:  04 2748 6206 sip:172...@iptel.org

Re: Question #3: LyX and LaTeX and TeX

[Gordon Cooper]

On 02/09/13 17:02, Alan L Tyree wrote:

  You can become productive with LyX*very*
quickly without knowing anything about LaTeX.



Agreed!   I wish that Lyx had been available back in the
1960's when we had to produce a heap of technical training
manuals - very quickly.

Gordon
Tauranga N.Z.

Re: Question #3: LyX and LaTeX and TeX

[Liviu Andronic]

On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 at 5:10 AM, Ken Springer  wrote:
> If I'm going to try out LyX in the end, would it be of any value to me to do
> a little experimenting with LaTeX and Tex first, or just jump in the pool?
>
LyX strives to offer an authoring environment that requires no (or
truly minimal) knowledge of LaTeX. In practice, however, rudimentary
LaTeX knowledge is always required when working with LyX, be it when
setting up your bibliography, understanding the UI structures,
inserting appropriate symbols or when dealing with unexpected
compilation errors.

I'd say that LyX works very well for novices to learn the basics of
LaTeX. Work on your document and see in View > Source how LyX prepares
the LaTeX code for you. So best would be not to worry about LaTeX too
much in the beginning; you'll pick it up on the way.

The most time-consuming part of learning LyX is making your first
document. So a good way to proceed would be to make your way through
the Introduction and the Tutorial (and maybe the LyX Essentials:
https://sites.google.com/site/tsewiki/resources/latex ), and then
start creating some not-very-important document. In the process you'll
start learning a lot of things LaTeX (and LyX).

Regards,
Liviu

Re: Question #3: LyX and LaTeX and TeX

[Steve Litt]

On Sun, 1 Sep 2013 08:29:23 +0200
Liviu Andronic  wrote:

> On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 at 5:10 AM, Ken Springer  wrote:
> > If I'm going to try out LyX in the end, would it be of any value to
> > me to do a little experimenting with LaTeX and Tex first, or just
> > jump in the pool?
> >
> LyX strives to offer an authoring environment that requires no (or
> truly minimal) knowledge of LaTeX. In practice, however, rudimentary
> LaTeX knowledge is always required when working with LyX, be it when
> setting up your bibliography, understanding the UI structures,
> inserting appropriate symbols or when dealing with unexpected
> compilation errors.

I'd add that if you want to add your own environments and make them
look a certain way, LyX requires a *huge* knowledge of LaTeX. This fact
doesn't materially contradict anything you write in the rest of this
document.

The way I work is, when finding a need for a new environment or
character style, I immediately put it in, perhaps with a CopyStyle,
using just enough LaTeX to make it look different from surrounding
text, even if it's nothing like my desires for the finished product.
Ellapsed time, 3 to 5 minutes, and I'm back to banging out verbiage.

Then, on a day when I'm not whomping out content, I'll search-engine
all over the place finding out what I need in order to achieve my
desired look, experiment, and code it.

Sometimes, when it's super-challenging, I do the whole thing in LaTeX
first, and only after the LaTeX is perfect do I port it to LyX. Doing
it this way limits the number of variables involved, increases
understanding, and *greatly* reduces the time consumed by each
change/compile/view cycle.

And this discussion wouldn't be complete without adding that a lot of
people have outstanding memories and ability to search CTAN, and can
find package solutions so they need no LaTeX knowledge at all (though a
lot of those same people have a lot more LaTeX knowledge than I do.) If
you want to become one of these people, I'd highly recommend starting
with the LaTeX Configuration manual available under Help. It lists a
whole lot of handy packages. The more packages you know and can use,
the less LaTeX you need to know.

> 
> I'd say that LyX works very well for novices to learn the basics of
> LaTeX. Work on your document and see in View > Source how LyX prepares
> the LaTeX code for you. So best would be not to worry about LaTeX too
> much in the beginning; you'll pick it up on the way.
> 
> The most time-consuming part of learning LyX is making your first
> document. 

Which isn't very time consuming. You run LyX, say File->New, and start
typing. Paragraph styles, which we call "Environments", are available
from a dropdown on the toolbar. Character styles are available from
Edit->Text_Style on the menu.

> So a good way to proceed would be to make your way through
> the Introduction and the Tutorial (and maybe the LyX Essentials:
> https://sites.google.com/site/tsewiki/resources/latex ), and then
> start creating some not-very-important document. In the process you'll
> start learning a lot of things LaTeX (and LyX).

Pre-Cisely! I didn't read the tutorial first, and was sorry about that
later. Also, the User's Guide is a vital part of your every day lookups.

Actually, every document listed under LyX's Help menu is very useful,
but these are especially so. And once you're using styles (environments
and character styles), be sure to look at the Customization manual
under Paragraph styles (search is the easiest way to find it), and
search Flex Insets to find the section about character styles.

When you DO need LaTeX, I've written some easy to read stuff here:

* http://www.troubleshooters.com/lpm/200210/200210.htm
* http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/lyx/lyx_latex_tex.htm
* http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/lyx/ownlists.htm

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Re: Question #3: LyX and LaTeX and TeX

[John Kane]

I'd say a little LaTeX knowledge is useful--don't overdo it.  I put together a 
14 page report in LateX that taught me enough about some of the underlying 
mechanics of LyX to be helpful.

I don't think I'm ever going to be an exclusive LaTeX user..




 From: Ken Springer 
To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org 
Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 11:10:54 PM
Subject: Question #3:   LyX and LaTeX and TeX
 

First, another thanks for all the replies to my thread about using LyX 
as a word processor.

In reading some of those replies, I'm left wondering a bit about LyX and 
LaTeX and their relationship.  As well as TeX, for that matter.

When I was really into learning a bit about desktop publishing, I bought 
a copy of Donald Knuth's books, The TeXbook and The METAfontbook, but 
never read them.

If I'm going to try out LyX in the end, would it be of any value to me 
to do a little experimenting with LaTeX and Tex first, or just jump in 
the pool?    LOL

-- 
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.04

Re: Question #3: LyX and LaTeX and TeX

[Ken Springer]

On 9/1/13 11:06 AM, Steve Litt wrote:

On Sun, 1 Sep 2013 08:29:23 +0200
Liviu Andronic  wrote:




It sounds as if Lyx/LaTeX has a higher learning curve than I was hoping for.

But it intrigues me.   :-)  I've got some simple help documents I want 
to create, and I want them to look as best as I can.  So, I think, in 
about a month when I'm out of work again, I'll download LaTeX and work 
with it, then get into LyX.


Thanks to everyone for all the advice offered.


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.04

Re: Question #3: LyX and LaTeX and TeX

[Alan L Tyree]

Ken Springer writes:

> On 9/1/13 11:06 AM, Steve Litt wrote:
>> On Sun, 1 Sep 2013 08:29:23 +0200
>> Liviu Andronic  wrote:
>
> 
>
> It sounds as if Lyx/LaTeX has a higher learning curve than I was hoping for.
>
> But it intrigues me.   :-)  I've got some simple help documents I want 
> to create, and I want them to look as best as I can.  So, I think, in 
> about a month when I'm out of work again, I'll download LaTeX and work 
> with it, then get into LyX.
FWIW, I don't agree with this. You can become productive with LyX *very*
quickly without knowing anything about LaTeX. You can produce nice
looking standardised documents. It's magic.

Of course, you will eventually want to customise. THAT is the time to
start looking at LaTeX IMHO.

Cheers,
Alan

>
> Thanks to everyone for all the advice offered.


-- 
Alan L Tyree   http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
Tel:  04 2748 6206 sip:172...@iptel.org

Re: Question #3: LyX and LaTeX and TeX

[Josh Hieronymus]

On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Alan L Tyree  wrote:

>
> Ken Springer writes:
>
> > On 9/1/13 11:06 AM, Steve Litt wrote:
> >> On Sun, 1 Sep 2013 08:29:23 +0200
> >> Liviu Andronic  wrote:
> >
> > 
> >
> > It sounds as if Lyx/LaTeX has a higher learning curve than I was hoping
> for.
> >
> > But it intrigues me.   :-)  I've got some simple help documents I want
> > to create, and I want them to look as best as I can.  So, I think, in
> > about a month when I'm out of work again, I'll download LaTeX and work
> > with it, then get into LyX.
> FWIW, I don't agree with this. You can become productive with LyX *very*
> quickly without knowing anything about LaTeX. You can produce nice
> looking standardised documents. It's magic.
>

Seconded. I began using LyX to typeset assignments for a logic class back
when I still didn't have any real knowledge of LaTeX (not that my LaTeX
knowledge is all that extensive now), and things more or less just turned
out nice and well-formatted without any effort on my part.


> Of course, you will eventually want to customise. THAT is the time to
> start looking at LaTeX IMHO.
>
> Cheers,
> Alan
>
> >
> > Thanks to everyone for all the advice offered.
>
>
> --
> Alan L Tyree   http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
> Tel:  04 2748 6206 sip:172...@iptel.org
>

Re: Question #3: LyX and LaTeX and TeX

[Gordon Cooper]

On 02/09/13 17:02, Alan L Tyree wrote:

  You can become productive with LyX*very*
quickly without knowing anything about LaTeX.



Agreed!   I wish that Lyx had been available back in the
1960's when we had to produce a heap of technical training
manuals - very quickly.

Gordon
Tauranga N.Z.

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Richard Heck]

On 08/30/2013 11:16 PM, Ken Springer wrote:


AFAIK, PostScript is a printer language, where a PDF is supposed to be 
a cross platform, software independent document format.  And the web 
has nothing to do with it.


PostScript is an interpreted programming language, largely intended, of 
course, for page description. It runs, in principle, on anything, and 
there are interpreters for lots of platforms and different kinds of 
devices. PDF incorporates a subset of PostScript and adds font 
embedding. The biggest difference is that PDFs are structured by page, 
so that you could download one page and be able to display it. To 
display a single page of a PostScript file, by contrast, you have to 
have everything before it. That made PostScript unsuitable for the web, 
and PDF was, to a large extent, created to solve that problem.


On the other hand, PDF is not really as cross-platform as it claims to 
be. A single PDF can look very different on different devices, unless 
you make sure to embed all the fonts. This is one place that DVI has a 
significant advantage.


Richard

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_Document_Format#Technical_foundations

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Richard Heck]

On 08/30/2013 11:16 PM, Ken Springer wrote:


AFAIK, PostScript is a printer language, where a PDF is supposed to be 
a cross platform, software independent document format.  And the web 
has nothing to do with it.


PostScript is an interpreted programming language, largely intended, of 
course, for page description. It runs, in principle, on anything, and 
there are interpreters for lots of platforms and different kinds of 
devices. PDF incorporates a subset of PostScript and adds font 
embedding. The biggest difference is that PDFs are structured by page, 
so that you could download one page and be able to display it. To 
display a single page of a PostScript file, by contrast, you have to 
have everything before it. That made PostScript unsuitable for the web, 
and PDF was, to a large extent, created to solve that problem.


On the other hand, PDF is not really as cross-platform as it claims to 
be. A single PDF can look very different on different devices, unless 
you make sure to embed all the fonts. This is one place that DVI has a 
significant advantage.


Richard

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_Document_Format#Technical_foundations

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Richard Heck]

On 08/30/2013 11:16 PM, Ken Springer wrote:


AFAIK, PostScript is a printer language, where a PDF is supposed to be 
a cross platform, software independent document format.  And the web 
has nothing to do with it.


PostScript is an interpreted programming language, largely intended, of 
course, for page description. It runs, in principle, on anything, and 
there are interpreters for lots of platforms and different kinds of 
devices. PDF incorporates a subset of PostScript and adds font 
embedding. The biggest difference is that PDFs are structured by page, 
so that you could download one page and be able to display it. To 
display a single page of a PostScript file, by contrast, you have to 
have everything before it. That made PostScript unsuitable for the web, 
and PDF was, to a large extent, created to solve that problem.


On the other hand, PDF is not really as cross-platform as it claims to 
be. A single PDF can look very different on different devices, unless 
you make sure to embed all the fonts. This is one place that DVI has a 
significant advantage.


Richard

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_Document_Format#Technical_foundations

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Stephen George]

On 30/08/2013 1:49 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

On 8/29/13 8:08 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

When doing stochastic screening, the ideal is to screen at the same 
dpi as the final printing device.  Next best is an even multiple.  
I.E. screen at 300 dpi for printing on a 600 dpi printer.  You also 
have to decide on the finished physical size of the graphic before you 
start.


I used to use the regular graphic in all the drafts.  When I was 
satisfied with everything, then I applied the stochastic screen.



I just searched Inscape+stochastic screening and got a bunch of
useless stuff including an anti-Obama site (what, how'd Google do
that?). Then I did the same thing for LaTeX, nothing ontopic for us.
Same thing with Computer monitors. One site said most inkjet printers
use stochastic screening.


I suspect all home printers and laser printers now have some kind of 
stochastic screening routines in their printer drivers.  But, I've not 
tested the idea.




An interesting discussion, but a question about Stochastic screening 
from someone who has only just heard of it.


Is this screening  something done at print driver level, and not a 
screen applied to the graphic itself prior to importing? ... therefore 
the same pdf file could be printed both with and without stochastic 
screening if the printer/driver support it?


Steve

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Richard Heck]

On 08/29/2013 08:38 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

On 8/29/13 1:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote:
Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the actual 
quality
of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the quality 
of the

printer being used.

Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?


Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported
to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid,
whichever printer you use.


So, the typesetting advantages of LyX/LaTeX is retained in a PDF 
document?  That's great, since OS X has included native PDF export 
from the print dialog for some time.


You don't need to use anything like that. LyX exports directly to PDF 
(which, if I remember correctly, is really a variety of PostScript, 
tuned for the web).


Richard

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Richard Heck]

On 08/29/2013 08:41 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

On 8/29/13 8:19 AM, Richard Heck wrote:

On 08/29/2013 03:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springersnowsh...@q.com  wrote:
Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the 
actual quality
of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the 
quality of the

printer being used.

Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?


Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported
to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid,
whichever printer you use.


Obviously, a low resolution printer will give worse printed output. This
is especially true since the fonts used are (usually) vector fonts.


Would you have a guess as to the minimum resolution a printer would 
have to have that would show the difference in the quality of the 
final print?  I'm thinking something the average computer user would 
possibly own, as opposed to a professional printing shop.


No, I don't know enough about this, and obviously not as much as you. 
But even most home laser printers nowadays have enormous resolution. The 
pages I printed myself to test looked really good to my eyes.


Richard

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Marcus Glöder]

Hello Ken,

A LyX document is not printed. From a LyX document you generated first a 
LaTeX document and then from the LaTeX document a PDF document. The PDF 
document is printed.


Of course, the quality of the printout depends on the output device. 
There is a tiny difference between a DeskJet 500 [1] and a Heidelberg 
printing machine [2]. ;-)


Best regards
Marcus

[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_Deskjet

[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heidelberger_Druckmaschinen

--
PMs: m.gloe...@gmx.de

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Ken Springer]

On 8/30/13 12:23 AM, Stephen George wrote:

On 30/08/2013 1:49 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

On 8/29/13 8:08 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

When doing stochastic screening, the ideal is to screen at the same
dpi as the final printing device.  Next best is an even multiple.
I.E. screen at 300 dpi for printing on a 600 dpi printer.  You also
have to decide on the finished physical size of the graphic before you
start.

I used to use the regular graphic in all the drafts.  When I was
satisfied with everything, then I applied the stochastic screen.


I just searched Inscape+stochastic screening and got a bunch of
useless stuff including an anti-Obama site (what, how'd Google do
that?). Then I did the same thing for LaTeX, nothing ontopic for us.
Same thing with Computer monitors. One site said most inkjet printers
use stochastic screening.


I suspect all home printers and laser printers now have some kind of
stochastic screening routines in their printer drivers.  But, I've not
tested the idea.



An interesting discussion, but a question about Stochastic screening
from someone who has only just heard of it.

Is this screening  something done at print driver level, and not a
screen applied to the graphic itself prior to importing? ... therefore
the same pdf file could be printed both with and without stochastic
screening if the printer/driver support it?


When I started with stochastic screening, printer drivers didn't have 
that ability.  To write my reply, I had to do a bit of research, it's 
amazing how much you forget when you don't work with things for a long 
time.  I found out that stochastic screening is also called frequency 
modulated screening, and error diffusion screening.  After I started 
using stochastic screening on the image itself, HP started having error 
diffusion features of printing.


I never applied the screening to the entire document, only to images. 
Then I placed the screened image into the document, and printed.


Personally, I doubt that doing the screening to text is even worth the 
effort.


My guess would be you could do either or both.  But I know there are 
expensive screening software out there, or so it seemed with just a 10 
minute investigation.



--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.04

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Ken Springer]

On 8/30/13 8:25 AM, Richard Heck wrote:

On 08/29/2013 08:41 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

On 8/29/13 8:19 AM, Richard Heck wrote:

On 08/29/2013 03:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springersnowsh...@q.com  wrote:

Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the
actual quality
of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the
quality of the
printer being used.

Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?


Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported
to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid,
whichever printer you use.


Obviously, a low resolution printer will give worse printed output. This
is especially true since the fonts used are (usually) vector fonts.


Would you have a guess as to the minimum resolution a printer would
have to have that would show the difference in the quality of the
final print?  I'm thinking something the average computer user would
possibly own, as opposed to a professional printing shop.


No, I don't know enough about this, and obviously not as much as you.
But even most home laser printers nowadays have enormous resolution. The
pages I printed myself to test looked really good to my eyes.


Admittedly, I've not had the time nor resources (meaning software) to 
test how things work today.  I was looking for free stochastic screening 
software when I found the expensive stuff.


But this has got me to wondering if the end result may end up being 
likened to the output of word processing software compared to 
typesetting software.  Maybe you won't notice the difference until you 
have them side by side.


This is something I won't be able to pursue at my end for at least two 
months.  Just no time.  :-(



--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.04

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Ken Springer]

On 8/30/13 8:22 AM, Richard Heck wrote:

On 08/29/2013 08:38 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

On 8/29/13 1:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote:

Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the actual
quality
of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the quality
of the
printer being used.

Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?


Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported
to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid,
whichever printer you use.


So, the typesetting advantages of LyX/LaTeX is retained in a PDF
document?  That's great, since OS X has included native PDF export
from the print dialog for some time.


You don't need to use anything like that. LyX exports directly to PDF
(which, if I remember correctly, is really a variety of PostScript,
tuned for the web).


This is good to know about exporting to PDF.

AFAIK, PostScript is a printer language, where a PDF is supposed to be a 
cross platform, software independent document format.  And the web has 
nothing to do with it.



--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.04

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Stephen George]

On 30/08/2013 1:49 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

On 8/29/13 8:08 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

When doing stochastic screening, the ideal is to screen at the same 
dpi as the final printing device.  Next best is an even multiple.  
I.E. screen at 300 dpi for printing on a 600 dpi printer.  You also 
have to decide on the finished physical size of the graphic before you 
start.


I used to use the regular graphic in all the drafts.  When I was 
satisfied with everything, then I applied the stochastic screen.



I just searched Inscape+stochastic screening and got a bunch of
useless stuff including an anti-Obama site (what, how'd Google do
that?). Then I did the same thing for LaTeX, nothing ontopic for us.
Same thing with Computer monitors. One site said most inkjet printers
use stochastic screening.


I suspect all home printers and laser printers now have some kind of 
stochastic screening routines in their printer drivers.  But, I've not 
tested the idea.




An interesting discussion, but a question about Stochastic screening 
from someone who has only just heard of it.


Is this screening  something done at print driver level, and not a 
screen applied to the graphic itself prior to importing? ... therefore 
the same pdf file could be printed both with and without stochastic 
screening if the printer/driver support it?


Steve

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Richard Heck]

On 08/29/2013 08:38 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

On 8/29/13 1:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote:
Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the actual 
quality
of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the quality 
of the

printer being used.

Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?


Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported
to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid,
whichever printer you use.


So, the typesetting advantages of LyX/LaTeX is retained in a PDF 
document?  That's great, since OS X has included native PDF export 
from the print dialog for some time.


You don't need to use anything like that. LyX exports directly to PDF 
(which, if I remember correctly, is really a variety of PostScript, 
tuned for the web).


Richard

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Richard Heck]

On 08/29/2013 08:41 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

On 8/29/13 8:19 AM, Richard Heck wrote:

On 08/29/2013 03:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springersnowsh...@q.com  wrote:
Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the 
actual quality
of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the 
quality of the

printer being used.

Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?


Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported
to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid,
whichever printer you use.


Obviously, a low resolution printer will give worse printed output. This
is especially true since the fonts used are (usually) vector fonts.


Would you have a guess as to the minimum resolution a printer would 
have to have that would show the difference in the quality of the 
final print?  I'm thinking something the average computer user would 
possibly own, as opposed to a professional printing shop.


No, I don't know enough about this, and obviously not as much as you. 
But even most home laser printers nowadays have enormous resolution. The 
pages I printed myself to test looked really good to my eyes.


Richard

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Marcus Glöder]

Hello Ken,

A LyX document is not printed. From a LyX document you generated first a 
LaTeX document and then from the LaTeX document a PDF document. The PDF 
document is printed.


Of course, the quality of the printout depends on the output device. 
There is a tiny difference between a DeskJet 500 [1] and a Heidelberg 
printing machine [2]. ;-)


Best regards
Marcus

[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_Deskjet

[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heidelberger_Druckmaschinen

--
PMs: m.gloe...@gmx.de

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Ken Springer]

On 8/30/13 12:23 AM, Stephen George wrote:

On 30/08/2013 1:49 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

On 8/29/13 8:08 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

When doing stochastic screening, the ideal is to screen at the same
dpi as the final printing device.  Next best is an even multiple.
I.E. screen at 300 dpi for printing on a 600 dpi printer.  You also
have to decide on the finished physical size of the graphic before you
start.

I used to use the regular graphic in all the drafts.  When I was
satisfied with everything, then I applied the stochastic screen.


I just searched Inscape+stochastic screening and got a bunch of
useless stuff including an anti-Obama site (what, how'd Google do
that?). Then I did the same thing for LaTeX, nothing ontopic for us.
Same thing with Computer monitors. One site said most inkjet printers
use stochastic screening.


I suspect all home printers and laser printers now have some kind of
stochastic screening routines in their printer drivers.  But, I've not
tested the idea.



An interesting discussion, but a question about Stochastic screening
from someone who has only just heard of it.

Is this screening  something done at print driver level, and not a
screen applied to the graphic itself prior to importing? ... therefore
the same pdf file could be printed both with and without stochastic
screening if the printer/driver support it?


When I started with stochastic screening, printer drivers didn't have 
that ability.  To write my reply, I had to do a bit of research, it's 
amazing how much you forget when you don't work with things for a long 
time.  I found out that stochastic screening is also called frequency 
modulated screening, and error diffusion screening.  After I started 
using stochastic screening on the image itself, HP started having error 
diffusion features of printing.


I never applied the screening to the entire document, only to images. 
Then I placed the screened image into the document, and printed.


Personally, I doubt that doing the screening to text is even worth the 
effort.


My guess would be you could do either or both.  But I know there are 
expensive screening software out there, or so it seemed with just a 10 
minute investigation.



--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.04

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Ken Springer]

On 8/30/13 8:25 AM, Richard Heck wrote:

On 08/29/2013 08:41 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

On 8/29/13 8:19 AM, Richard Heck wrote:

On 08/29/2013 03:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springersnowsh...@q.com  wrote:

Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the
actual quality
of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the
quality of the
printer being used.

Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?


Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported
to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid,
whichever printer you use.


Obviously, a low resolution printer will give worse printed output. This
is especially true since the fonts used are (usually) vector fonts.


Would you have a guess as to the minimum resolution a printer would
have to have that would show the difference in the quality of the
final print?  I'm thinking something the average computer user would
possibly own, as opposed to a professional printing shop.


No, I don't know enough about this, and obviously not as much as you.
But even most home laser printers nowadays have enormous resolution. The
pages I printed myself to test looked really good to my eyes.


Admittedly, I've not had the time nor resources (meaning software) to 
test how things work today.  I was looking for free stochastic screening 
software when I found the expensive stuff.


But this has got me to wondering if the end result may end up being 
likened to the output of word processing software compared to 
typesetting software.  Maybe you won't notice the difference until you 
have them side by side.


This is something I won't be able to pursue at my end for at least two 
months.  Just no time.  :-(



--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.04

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Ken Springer]

On 8/30/13 8:22 AM, Richard Heck wrote:

On 08/29/2013 08:38 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

On 8/29/13 1:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote:

Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the actual
quality
of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the quality
of the
printer being used.

Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?


Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported
to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid,
whichever printer you use.


So, the typesetting advantages of LyX/LaTeX is retained in a PDF
document?  That's great, since OS X has included native PDF export
from the print dialog for some time.


You don't need to use anything like that. LyX exports directly to PDF
(which, if I remember correctly, is really a variety of PostScript,
tuned for the web).


This is good to know about exporting to PDF.

AFAIK, PostScript is a printer language, where a PDF is supposed to be a 
cross platform, software independent document format.  And the web has 
nothing to do with it.



--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.04

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Stephen George]

On 30/08/2013 1:49 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

On 8/29/13 8:08 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

When doing stochastic screening, the ideal is to screen at the same 
dpi as the final printing device.  Next best is an even multiple.  
I.E. screen at 300 dpi for printing on a 600 dpi printer.  You also 
have to decide on the finished physical size of the graphic before you 
start.


I used to use the regular graphic in all the drafts.  When I was 
satisfied with everything, then I applied the stochastic screen.



I just searched Inscape+"stochastic screening" and got a bunch of
useless stuff including an anti-Obama site (what, how'd Google do
that?). Then I did the same thing for LaTeX, nothing ontopic for us.
Same thing with "Computer monitors". One site said most inkjet printers
use stochastic screening.


I suspect all home printers and laser printers now have some kind of 
stochastic screening routines in their printer drivers.  But, I've not 
tested the idea.




An interesting discussion, but a question about Stochastic screening 
from someone who has only just heard of it.


Is this screening  something done at print driver level, and not a 
screen applied to the graphic itself prior to importing? ... therefore 
the same pdf file could be printed both with and without stochastic 
screening if the printer/driver support it?


Steve

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Richard Heck]

On 08/29/2013 08:38 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

On 8/29/13 1:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer  wrote:
Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the actual 
quality
of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the quality 
of the

printer being used.

Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?


Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported
to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid,
whichever printer you use.


So, the typesetting advantages of LyX/LaTeX is retained in a PDF 
document?  That's great, since OS X has included native PDF export 
from the print dialog for some time.


You don't need to use anything like that. LyX exports directly to PDF 
(which, if I remember correctly, is really a variety of PostScript, 
tuned for the web).


Richard

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Richard Heck]

On 08/29/2013 08:41 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

On 8/29/13 8:19 AM, Richard Heck wrote:

On 08/29/2013 03:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer  wrote:
Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the 
actual quality
of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the 
quality of the

printer being used.

Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?


Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported
to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid,
whichever printer you use.


Obviously, a low resolution printer will give worse printed output. This
is especially true since the fonts used are (usually) vector fonts.


Would you have a guess as to the minimum resolution a printer would 
have to have that would show the difference in the quality of the 
final print?  I'm thinking something the average computer user would 
possibly own, as opposed to a professional printing shop.


No, I don't know enough about this, and obviously not as much as you. 
But even most home laser printers nowadays have enormous resolution. The 
pages I printed myself to test looked really good to my eyes.


Richard

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Marcus Glöder]

Hello Ken,

A LyX document is not printed. From a LyX document you generated first a 
LaTeX document and then from the LaTeX document a PDF document. The PDF 
document is printed.


Of course, the quality of the printout depends on the output device. 
There is a tiny difference between a DeskJet 500 [1] and a Heidelberg 
printing machine [2]. ;-)


Best regards
Marcus

[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_Deskjet

[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heidelberger_Druckmaschinen

--
PMs: m.gloe...@gmx.de

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Ken Springer]

On 8/30/13 12:23 AM, Stephen George wrote:

On 30/08/2013 1:49 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

On 8/29/13 8:08 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

When doing stochastic screening, the ideal is to screen at the same
dpi as the final printing device.  Next best is an even multiple.
I.E. screen at 300 dpi for printing on a 600 dpi printer.  You also
have to decide on the finished physical size of the graphic before you
start.

I used to use the regular graphic in all the drafts.  When I was
satisfied with everything, then I applied the stochastic screen.


I just searched Inscape+"stochastic screening" and got a bunch of
useless stuff including an anti-Obama site (what, how'd Google do
that?). Then I did the same thing for LaTeX, nothing ontopic for us.
Same thing with "Computer monitors". One site said most inkjet printers
use stochastic screening.


I suspect all home printers and laser printers now have some kind of
stochastic screening routines in their printer drivers.  But, I've not
tested the idea.



An interesting discussion, but a question about Stochastic screening
from someone who has only just heard of it.

Is this screening  something done at print driver level, and not a
screen applied to the graphic itself prior to importing? ... therefore
the same pdf file could be printed both with and without stochastic
screening if the printer/driver support it?


When I started with stochastic screening, printer drivers didn't have 
that ability.  To write my reply, I had to do a bit of research, it's 
amazing how much you forget when you don't work with things for a long 
time.  I found out that stochastic screening is also called frequency 
modulated screening, and error diffusion screening.  After I started 
using stochastic screening on the image itself, HP started having error 
diffusion features of printing.


I never applied the screening to the entire document, only to images. 
Then I placed the screened image into the document, and printed.


Personally, I doubt that doing the screening to text is even worth the 
effort.


My guess would be you could do either or both.  But I know there are 
expensive screening software out there, or so it seemed with just a 10 
minute investigation.



--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.04

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Ken Springer]

On 8/30/13 8:25 AM, Richard Heck wrote:

On 08/29/2013 08:41 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

On 8/29/13 8:19 AM, Richard Heck wrote:

On 08/29/2013 03:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer  wrote:

Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the
actual quality
of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the
quality of the
printer being used.

Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?


Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported
to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid,
whichever printer you use.


Obviously, a low resolution printer will give worse printed output. This
is especially true since the fonts used are (usually) vector fonts.


Would you have a guess as to the minimum resolution a printer would
have to have that would show the difference in the quality of the
final print?  I'm thinking something the average computer user would
possibly own, as opposed to a professional printing shop.


No, I don't know enough about this, and obviously not as much as you.
But even most home laser printers nowadays have enormous resolution. The
pages I printed myself to test looked really good to my eyes.


Admittedly, I've not had the time nor resources (meaning software) to 
test how things work today.  I was looking for free stochastic screening 
software when I found the expensive stuff.


But this has got me to wondering if the end result may end up being 
likened to the output of word processing software compared to 
typesetting software.  Maybe you won't notice the difference until you 
have them side by side.


This is something I won't be able to pursue at my end for at least two 
months.  Just no time.  :-(



--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.04

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Ken Springer]

On 8/30/13 8:22 AM, Richard Heck wrote:

On 08/29/2013 08:38 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

On 8/29/13 1:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer  wrote:

Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the actual
quality
of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the quality
of the
printer being used.

Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?


Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported
to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid,
whichever printer you use.


So, the typesetting advantages of LyX/LaTeX is retained in a PDF
document?  That's great, since OS X has included native PDF export
from the print dialog for some time.


You don't need to use anything like that. LyX exports directly to PDF
(which, if I remember correctly, is really a variety of PostScript,
tuned for the web).


This is good to know about exporting to PDF.

AFAIK, PostScript is a printer language, where a PDF is supposed to be a 
cross platform, software independent document format.  And the web has 
nothing to do with it.



--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.04

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Liviu Andronic]

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote:
 Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the actual quality
 of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the quality of the
 printer being used.

 Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?

Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported
to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid,
whichever printer you use.

Liviu

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Richard Heck]

On 08/29/2013 03:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote:

Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the actual quality
of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the quality of the
printer being used.

Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?


Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported
to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid,
whichever printer you use.


Obviously, a low resolution printer will give worse printed output. This 
is especially true since the fonts used are (usually) vector fonts.


That said, my two books /Frege's Theorem/ and /Reading Frege's 
_Grundgesetze_/ were both printed, by the publisher, from a PDF I 
provided. And they look great, if I do say so myself. I assume they used 
very good printers!


Richard

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 10:19:34 -0400
Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote:

 On 08/29/2013 03:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:
  On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com
  wrote:
  Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the
  actual quality of the printed output from a LyX document will
  depend on the quality of the printer being used.
 
  Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?
 
  Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
  quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported
  to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be
  rock-solid, whichever printer you use.
 
 Obviously, a low resolution printer will give worse printed output.
 This is especially true since the fonts used are (usually) vector
 fonts.
 
 That said, my two books /Frege's Theorem/ and /Reading Frege's 
 _Grundgesetze_/ were both printed, by the publisher, from a PDF I 
 provided. And they look great, if I do say so myself. I assume they
 used very good printers!
 
 Richard

Sort of on topic: After becoming dissatisfied with the 26 minute print
time, on my new Brother MFC-8810dw 40ppm printer, of my book Manager's
Guide to Technical Troubleshooting
(http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/mg.htm), I set the print
resolution down from 1200x1200dpi to 600x600dpi (11 minutes, yeah!), my
admittedly old eyes could find no appreciable difference in the print,
except for an almost imperceptable lightening at 600dpi. But the images
were another matter: They looked better at 600 because 1200 showcased
the mistakes and pixellations of the artwork itself.

To bring this back to on-topicness, the print resulting from LyX looks
good at any resolution, always assuming you pick a good font for
printing (I like Century Schoolbook).

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Ken Springer]

On 8/29/13 1:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote:

Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the actual quality
of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the quality of the
printer being used.

Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?


Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported
to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid,
whichever printer you use.


So, the typesetting advantages of LyX/LaTeX is retained in a PDF 
document?  That's great, since OS X has included native PDF export from 
the print dialog for some time.


I'm toying with, and working on, the beginnings of a couple of projects 
that will end with printing, and I want them to look good.


I'd thought about a desktop publishing program for the final setup, but 
I won't need the power of placing frames and such.  But want something 
better that the average word processor that will also work for me on a 
daily basis.



--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.04

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Ken Springer]

On 8/29/13 8:19 AM, Richard Heck wrote:

On 08/29/2013 03:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springersnowsh...@q.com  wrote:

Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the actual quality
of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the quality of the
printer being used.

Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?


Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported
to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid,
whichever printer you use.


Obviously, a low resolution printer will give worse printed output. This
is especially true since the fonts used are (usually) vector fonts.


Would you have a guess as to the minimum resolution a printer would have 
to have that would show the difference in the quality of the final 
print?  I'm thinking something the average computer user would possibly 
own, as opposed to a professional printing shop.






That said, my two books /Frege's Theorem/ and /Reading Frege's
_Grundgesetze_/ were both printed, by the publisher, from a PDF I
provided. And they look great, if I do say so myself. I assume they used
very good printers!

Richard




--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.04

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Ken Springer]

On 8/29/13 4:47 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 10:19:34 -0400
Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote:


On 08/29/2013 03:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com
wrote:

Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the
actual quality of the printed output from a LyX document will
depend on the quality of the printer being used.

Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?


Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported
to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be
rock-solid, whichever printer you use.


Obviously, a low resolution printer will give worse printed output.
This is especially true since the fonts used are (usually) vector
fonts.

That said, my two books /Frege's Theorem/ and /Reading Frege's
_Grundgesetze_/ were both printed, by the publisher, from a PDF I
provided. And they look great, if I do say so myself. I assume they
used very good printers!

Richard


Sort of on topic: After becoming dissatisfied with the 26 minute print
time, on my new Brother MFC-8810dw 40ppm printer, of my book Manager's
Guide to Technical Troubleshooting
(http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/mg.htm), I set the print
resolution down from 1200x1200dpi to 600x600dpi (11 minutes, yeah!), my
admittedly old eyes could find no appreciable difference in the print,
except for an almost imperceptable lightening at 600dpi. But the images
were another matter: They looked better at 600 because 1200 showcased
the mistakes and pixellations of the artwork itself.



What would have happened if you applied stochastic screening to the 
images?  I'm assuming that would be retained in a PDF file.








To bring this back to on-topicness, the print resulting from LyX looks
good at any resolution, always assuming you pick a good font for
printing (I like Century Schoolbook).

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance




--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.04

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 18:51:24 -0600
Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote:

 On 8/29/13 4:47 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
  On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 10:19:34 -0400
  Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote:
 
  On 08/29/2013 03:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:
  On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com
  wrote:
  Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the
  actual quality of the printed output from a LyX document will
  depend on the quality of the printer being used.
 
  Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?
 
  Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
  quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once
  exported to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should
  be rock-solid, whichever printer you use.
 
  Obviously, a low resolution printer will give worse printed output.
  This is especially true since the fonts used are (usually) vector
  fonts.
 
  That said, my two books /Frege's Theorem/ and /Reading Frege's
  _Grundgesetze_/ were both printed, by the publisher, from a PDF I
  provided. And they look great, if I do say so myself. I assume they
  used very good printers!
 
  Richard
 
  Sort of on topic: After becoming dissatisfied with the 26 minute
  print time, on my new Brother MFC-8810dw 40ppm printer, of my book
  Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting
  (http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/mg.htm), I set the print
  resolution down from 1200x1200dpi to 600x600dpi (11 minutes,
  yeah!), my admittedly old eyes could find no appreciable difference
  in the print, except for an almost imperceptable lightening at
  600dpi. But the images were another matter: They looked better at
  600 because 1200 showcased the mistakes and pixellations of the
  artwork itself.
 
 
 What would have happened if you applied stochastic screening to the 
 images?  I'm assuming that would be retained in a PDF file.

Deeeud!

You're getting so tweak here I had to look up stochastic screening on
Wikipedia.

The graphics involved were:

1) A photo I took of a wrench

2) Various diagrams I did in Dia, Inkscape and Gimp.

Since I don't believe LaTeX can natively handle .svg, a lot of this
depends on the conversion LyX uses (which of course you can configure).
Keep in mind also that filesize goes way up with resolution, and that
makes it costly to email or download PDFs, and taxes printers in terms
of making the engine stop while loading the next big image.

I've known about stochastic screening for all of five minutes now
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_screening) so let me dazzle
you with my opinions...

Any laserprinter I ever used used, as far as I know, a certain number
of dots per inch, each dot being a certain shade (I use
monochrome/grayscale) or color (if you want each page to cost you a
dime or a quarter or whatever). The shades are made from dot size,
with dots being a whole bunch of dots from the dpi measurement. As far
as I know, they cannot vary placement of their dots, only shade or
color via size (AM). So even if the PDF looked great on the screen, I'd
imagine the printer would have limited ability to reproduce the (FM)
stochastic screening.

Indeed, the Wikipedia page talks of stochastic screening mainly in
terms of printing from plates (which I presume assumes print runs of at
least 100), and not from laser printers.

I just searched Inscape+stochastic screening and got a bunch of
useless stuff including an anti-Obama site (what, how'd Google do
that?). Then I did the same thing for LaTeX, nothing ontopic for us.
Same thing with Computer monitors. One site said most inkjet printers
use stochastic screening.

I don't think stochastic screening will come into your life unless
you're using a very unusual printer, or long-run print at a print
house. It won't help me, AFAIK, because today's monitors can't use it. 

If filesize is no object, just go 1200dpi, and make sure your .svg
to .eps conversions are high resolution. If filesize *is* an issue, you
appear to know a lot more than I about how to minimize pixelization,
moire, and all that stuff.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Ken Springer]

On 8/29/13 8:08 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 18:51:24 -0600
Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote:


On 8/29/13 4:47 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 10:19:34 -0400
Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote:


On 08/29/2013 03:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com
wrote:

Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the
actual quality of the printed output from a LyX document will
depend on the quality of the printer being used.

Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?


Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once
exported to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should
be rock-solid, whichever printer you use.


Obviously, a low resolution printer will give worse printed output.
This is especially true since the fonts used are (usually) vector
fonts.

That said, my two books /Frege's Theorem/ and /Reading Frege's
_Grundgesetze_/ were both printed, by the publisher, from a PDF I
provided. And they look great, if I do say so myself. I assume they
used very good printers!

Richard


Sort of on topic: After becoming dissatisfied with the 26 minute
print time, on my new Brother MFC-8810dw 40ppm printer, of my book
Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting
(http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/mg.htm), I set the print
resolution down from 1200x1200dpi to 600x600dpi (11 minutes,
yeah!), my admittedly old eyes could find no appreciable difference
in the print, except for an almost imperceptable lightening at
600dpi. But the images were another matter: They looked better at
600 because 1200 showcased the mistakes and pixellations of the
artwork itself.



What would have happened if you applied stochastic screening to the
images?  I'm assuming that would be retained in a PDF file.


Deeeud!

You're getting so tweak here I had to look up stochastic screening on
Wikipedia.

The graphics involved were:

1) A photo I took of a wrench

2) Various diagrams I did in Dia, Inkscape and Gimp.


I had to look up Dia, and thanks for that.  I've added the downloading 
of the Mac and Windows versions to my to do list.



Since I don't believe LaTeX can natively handle .svg, a lot of this
depends on the conversion LyX uses (which of course you can configure).
Keep in mind also that filesize goes way up with resolution, and that
makes it costly to email or download PDFs, and taxes printers in terms
of making the engine stop while loading the next big image.


.svg is a vector graphics file format.  Stochastic screening is for 
bitmapped files.  It works best on lower resolution printers.  It's been 
years since I've use stochastic screening, so I don't know how it would 
look on a 1200 dpi laser, for instance.  But on a 300 dpi laser, you 
would not believe how real a printed a photograph can look.


I've got a 20 year old computer in the back room with a desktop 
publishing program on it that has a stochastic screening module.



I've known about stochastic screening for all of five minutes now
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_screening) so let me dazzle
you with my opinions...

Any laserprinter I ever used used, as far as I know, a certain number
of dots per inch, each dot being a certain shade (I use
monochrome/grayscale) or color (if you want each page to cost you a
dime or a quarter or whatever). The shades are made from dot size,
with dots being a whole bunch of dots from the dpi measurement. As far
as I know, they cannot vary placement of their dots, only shade or
color via size (AM). So even if the PDF looked great on the screen, I'd
imagine the printer would have limited ability to reproduce the (FM)
stochastic screening.


You are correct on the dpi part, and contemporary printers can emulate 
dpi output resolutions lower than what they are capable of.


However, you're wrong on each dot being a certain shade.  The dot 
produced by a BW laser is either black or white.  White meaning no 
toner is applied to the paper.  You can't change the color/shade of the 
toner.


Where people go wrong is making the assumption that the dot produced by 
the printer is a 1:1 ratio with the dot being printed.  I.E., one 
printer dot for each dot/pixel in the photo.


In reality, a number of printer dots are used to create the single 
dot/pixel in a bitmapped graphic file.  This is where the line screen 
frequency, or LPI, comes into play.


A square grid of printed dots is used to create a single pixel from the 
bitmapped graphic.  Unless things have changed, the maximum number of 
possible grey shades is 256.  (Actually, it's 257, but that's not a 
multiple of 2.)  So the best possible greyscale picture that you can 
print has a maximum of 256 shades of grey.


Example...

For ease of this post, let's say you use a 3X3 square of printer dots to 
create the single pixel dot in the graphic.  And, you want 50% grey. 
For a single row of pixels from the file, 

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Liviu Andronic]

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote:
 Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the actual quality
 of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the quality of the
 printer being used.

 Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?

Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported
to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid,
whichever printer you use.

Liviu

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Richard Heck]

On 08/29/2013 03:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote:

Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the actual quality
of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the quality of the
printer being used.

Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?


Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported
to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid,
whichever printer you use.


Obviously, a low resolution printer will give worse printed output. This 
is especially true since the fonts used are (usually) vector fonts.


That said, my two books /Frege's Theorem/ and /Reading Frege's 
_Grundgesetze_/ were both printed, by the publisher, from a PDF I 
provided. And they look great, if I do say so myself. I assume they used 
very good printers!


Richard

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 10:19:34 -0400
Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote:

 On 08/29/2013 03:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:
  On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com
  wrote:
  Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the
  actual quality of the printed output from a LyX document will
  depend on the quality of the printer being used.
 
  Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?
 
  Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
  quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported
  to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be
  rock-solid, whichever printer you use.
 
 Obviously, a low resolution printer will give worse printed output.
 This is especially true since the fonts used are (usually) vector
 fonts.
 
 That said, my two books /Frege's Theorem/ and /Reading Frege's 
 _Grundgesetze_/ were both printed, by the publisher, from a PDF I 
 provided. And they look great, if I do say so myself. I assume they
 used very good printers!
 
 Richard

Sort of on topic: After becoming dissatisfied with the 26 minute print
time, on my new Brother MFC-8810dw 40ppm printer, of my book Manager's
Guide to Technical Troubleshooting
(http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/mg.htm), I set the print
resolution down from 1200x1200dpi to 600x600dpi (11 minutes, yeah!), my
admittedly old eyes could find no appreciable difference in the print,
except for an almost imperceptable lightening at 600dpi. But the images
were another matter: They looked better at 600 because 1200 showcased
the mistakes and pixellations of the artwork itself.

To bring this back to on-topicness, the print resulting from LyX looks
good at any resolution, always assuming you pick a good font for
printing (I like Century Schoolbook).

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Ken Springer]

On 8/29/13 1:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote:

Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the actual quality
of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the quality of the
printer being used.

Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?


Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported
to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid,
whichever printer you use.


So, the typesetting advantages of LyX/LaTeX is retained in a PDF 
document?  That's great, since OS X has included native PDF export from 
the print dialog for some time.


I'm toying with, and working on, the beginnings of a couple of projects 
that will end with printing, and I want them to look good.


I'd thought about a desktop publishing program for the final setup, but 
I won't need the power of placing frames and such.  But want something 
better that the average word processor that will also work for me on a 
daily basis.



--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.04

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Ken Springer]

On 8/29/13 8:19 AM, Richard Heck wrote:

On 08/29/2013 03:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springersnowsh...@q.com  wrote:

Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the actual quality
of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the quality of the
printer being used.

Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?


Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported
to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid,
whichever printer you use.


Obviously, a low resolution printer will give worse printed output. This
is especially true since the fonts used are (usually) vector fonts.


Would you have a guess as to the minimum resolution a printer would have 
to have that would show the difference in the quality of the final 
print?  I'm thinking something the average computer user would possibly 
own, as opposed to a professional printing shop.






That said, my two books /Frege's Theorem/ and /Reading Frege's
_Grundgesetze_/ were both printed, by the publisher, from a PDF I
provided. And they look great, if I do say so myself. I assume they used
very good printers!

Richard




--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.04

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Ken Springer]

On 8/29/13 4:47 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 10:19:34 -0400
Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote:


On 08/29/2013 03:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com
wrote:

Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the
actual quality of the printed output from a LyX document will
depend on the quality of the printer being used.

Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?


Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported
to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be
rock-solid, whichever printer you use.


Obviously, a low resolution printer will give worse printed output.
This is especially true since the fonts used are (usually) vector
fonts.

That said, my two books /Frege's Theorem/ and /Reading Frege's
_Grundgesetze_/ were both printed, by the publisher, from a PDF I
provided. And they look great, if I do say so myself. I assume they
used very good printers!

Richard


Sort of on topic: After becoming dissatisfied with the 26 minute print
time, on my new Brother MFC-8810dw 40ppm printer, of my book Manager's
Guide to Technical Troubleshooting
(http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/mg.htm), I set the print
resolution down from 1200x1200dpi to 600x600dpi (11 minutes, yeah!), my
admittedly old eyes could find no appreciable difference in the print,
except for an almost imperceptable lightening at 600dpi. But the images
were another matter: They looked better at 600 because 1200 showcased
the mistakes and pixellations of the artwork itself.



What would have happened if you applied stochastic screening to the 
images?  I'm assuming that would be retained in a PDF file.








To bring this back to on-topicness, the print resulting from LyX looks
good at any resolution, always assuming you pick a good font for
printing (I like Century Schoolbook).

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance




--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.04

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 18:51:24 -0600
Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote:

 On 8/29/13 4:47 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
  On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 10:19:34 -0400
  Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote:
 
  On 08/29/2013 03:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:
  On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com
  wrote:
  Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the
  actual quality of the printed output from a LyX document will
  depend on the quality of the printer being used.
 
  Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?
 
  Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
  quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once
  exported to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should
  be rock-solid, whichever printer you use.
 
  Obviously, a low resolution printer will give worse printed output.
  This is especially true since the fonts used are (usually) vector
  fonts.
 
  That said, my two books /Frege's Theorem/ and /Reading Frege's
  _Grundgesetze_/ were both printed, by the publisher, from a PDF I
  provided. And they look great, if I do say so myself. I assume they
  used very good printers!
 
  Richard
 
  Sort of on topic: After becoming dissatisfied with the 26 minute
  print time, on my new Brother MFC-8810dw 40ppm printer, of my book
  Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting
  (http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/mg.htm), I set the print
  resolution down from 1200x1200dpi to 600x600dpi (11 minutes,
  yeah!), my admittedly old eyes could find no appreciable difference
  in the print, except for an almost imperceptable lightening at
  600dpi. But the images were another matter: They looked better at
  600 because 1200 showcased the mistakes and pixellations of the
  artwork itself.
 
 
 What would have happened if you applied stochastic screening to the 
 images?  I'm assuming that would be retained in a PDF file.

Deeeud!

You're getting so tweak here I had to look up stochastic screening on
Wikipedia.

The graphics involved were:

1) A photo I took of a wrench

2) Various diagrams I did in Dia, Inkscape and Gimp.

Since I don't believe LaTeX can natively handle .svg, a lot of this
depends on the conversion LyX uses (which of course you can configure).
Keep in mind also that filesize goes way up with resolution, and that
makes it costly to email or download PDFs, and taxes printers in terms
of making the engine stop while loading the next big image.

I've known about stochastic screening for all of five minutes now
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_screening) so let me dazzle
you with my opinions...

Any laserprinter I ever used used, as far as I know, a certain number
of dots per inch, each dot being a certain shade (I use
monochrome/grayscale) or color (if you want each page to cost you a
dime or a quarter or whatever). The shades are made from dot size,
with dots being a whole bunch of dots from the dpi measurement. As far
as I know, they cannot vary placement of their dots, only shade or
color via size (AM). So even if the PDF looked great on the screen, I'd
imagine the printer would have limited ability to reproduce the (FM)
stochastic screening.

Indeed, the Wikipedia page talks of stochastic screening mainly in
terms of printing from plates (which I presume assumes print runs of at
least 100), and not from laser printers.

I just searched Inscape+stochastic screening and got a bunch of
useless stuff including an anti-Obama site (what, how'd Google do
that?). Then I did the same thing for LaTeX, nothing ontopic for us.
Same thing with Computer monitors. One site said most inkjet printers
use stochastic screening.

I don't think stochastic screening will come into your life unless
you're using a very unusual printer, or long-run print at a print
house. It won't help me, AFAIK, because today's monitors can't use it. 

If filesize is no object, just go 1200dpi, and make sure your .svg
to .eps conversions are high resolution. If filesize *is* an issue, you
appear to know a lot more than I about how to minimize pixelization,
moire, and all that stuff.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Ken Springer]

On 8/29/13 8:08 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 18:51:24 -0600
Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote:


On 8/29/13 4:47 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 10:19:34 -0400
Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote:


On 08/29/2013 03:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com
wrote:

Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the
actual quality of the printed output from a LyX document will
depend on the quality of the printer being used.

Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?


Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once
exported to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should
be rock-solid, whichever printer you use.


Obviously, a low resolution printer will give worse printed output.
This is especially true since the fonts used are (usually) vector
fonts.

That said, my two books /Frege's Theorem/ and /Reading Frege's
_Grundgesetze_/ were both printed, by the publisher, from a PDF I
provided. And they look great, if I do say so myself. I assume they
used very good printers!

Richard


Sort of on topic: After becoming dissatisfied with the 26 minute
print time, on my new Brother MFC-8810dw 40ppm printer, of my book
Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting
(http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/mg.htm), I set the print
resolution down from 1200x1200dpi to 600x600dpi (11 minutes,
yeah!), my admittedly old eyes could find no appreciable difference
in the print, except for an almost imperceptable lightening at
600dpi. But the images were another matter: They looked better at
600 because 1200 showcased the mistakes and pixellations of the
artwork itself.



What would have happened if you applied stochastic screening to the
images?  I'm assuming that would be retained in a PDF file.


Deeeud!

You're getting so tweak here I had to look up stochastic screening on
Wikipedia.

The graphics involved were:

1) A photo I took of a wrench

2) Various diagrams I did in Dia, Inkscape and Gimp.


I had to look up Dia, and thanks for that.  I've added the downloading 
of the Mac and Windows versions to my to do list.



Since I don't believe LaTeX can natively handle .svg, a lot of this
depends on the conversion LyX uses (which of course you can configure).
Keep in mind also that filesize goes way up with resolution, and that
makes it costly to email or download PDFs, and taxes printers in terms
of making the engine stop while loading the next big image.


.svg is a vector graphics file format.  Stochastic screening is for 
bitmapped files.  It works best on lower resolution printers.  It's been 
years since I've use stochastic screening, so I don't know how it would 
look on a 1200 dpi laser, for instance.  But on a 300 dpi laser, you 
would not believe how real a printed a photograph can look.


I've got a 20 year old computer in the back room with a desktop 
publishing program on it that has a stochastic screening module.



I've known about stochastic screening for all of five minutes now
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_screening) so let me dazzle
you with my opinions...

Any laserprinter I ever used used, as far as I know, a certain number
of dots per inch, each dot being a certain shade (I use
monochrome/grayscale) or color (if you want each page to cost you a
dime or a quarter or whatever). The shades are made from dot size,
with dots being a whole bunch of dots from the dpi measurement. As far
as I know, they cannot vary placement of their dots, only shade or
color via size (AM). So even if the PDF looked great on the screen, I'd
imagine the printer would have limited ability to reproduce the (FM)
stochastic screening.


You are correct on the dpi part, and contemporary printers can emulate 
dpi output resolutions lower than what they are capable of.


However, you're wrong on each dot being a certain shade.  The dot 
produced by a BW laser is either black or white.  White meaning no 
toner is applied to the paper.  You can't change the color/shade of the 
toner.


Where people go wrong is making the assumption that the dot produced by 
the printer is a 1:1 ratio with the dot being printed.  I.E., one 
printer dot for each dot/pixel in the photo.


In reality, a number of printer dots are used to create the single 
dot/pixel in a bitmapped graphic file.  This is where the line screen 
frequency, or LPI, comes into play.


A square grid of printed dots is used to create a single pixel from the 
bitmapped graphic.  Unless things have changed, the maximum number of 
possible grey shades is 256.  (Actually, it's 257, but that's not a 
multiple of 2.)  So the best possible greyscale picture that you can 
print has a maximum of 256 shades of grey.


Example...

For ease of this post, let's say you use a 3X3 square of printer dots to 
create the single pixel dot in the graphic.  And, you want 50% grey. 
For a single row of pixels from the file, 

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Liviu Andronic]

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer  wrote:
> Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the actual quality
> of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the quality of the
> printer being used.
>
> Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?
>
Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported
to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid,
whichever printer you use.

Liviu

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Richard Heck]

On 08/29/2013 03:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer  wrote:

Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the actual quality
of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the quality of the
printer being used.

Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?


Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported
to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid,
whichever printer you use.


Obviously, a low resolution printer will give worse printed output. This 
is especially true since the fonts used are (usually) vector fonts.


That said, my two books /Frege's Theorem/ and /Reading Frege's 
_Grundgesetze_/ were both printed, by the publisher, from a PDF I 
provided. And they look great, if I do say so myself. I assume they used 
very good printers!


Richard

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 10:19:34 -0400
Richard Heck  wrote:

> On 08/29/2013 03:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer 
> > wrote:
> >> Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the
> >> actual quality of the printed output from a LyX document will
> >> depend on the quality of the printer being used.
> >>
> >> Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?
> >>
> > Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
> > quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported
> > to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be
> > rock-solid, whichever printer you use.
> 
> Obviously, a low resolution printer will give worse printed output.
> This is especially true since the fonts used are (usually) vector
> fonts.
> 
> That said, my two books /Frege's Theorem/ and /Reading Frege's 
> _Grundgesetze_/ were both printed, by the publisher, from a PDF I 
> provided. And they look great, if I do say so myself. I assume they
> used very good printers!
> 
> Richard

Sort of on topic: After becoming dissatisfied with the 26 minute print
time, on my new Brother MFC-8810dw 40ppm printer, of my book "Manager's
Guide to Technical Troubleshooting
(http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/mg.htm), I set the print
resolution down from 1200x1200dpi to 600x600dpi (11 minutes, yeah!), my
admittedly old eyes could find no appreciable difference in the print,
except for an almost imperceptable lightening at 600dpi. But the images
were another matter: They looked better at 600 because 1200 showcased
the mistakes and pixellations of the artwork itself.

To bring this back to on-topicness, the print resulting from LyX looks
good at any resolution, always assuming you pick a good font for
printing (I like Century Schoolbook).

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Ken Springer]

On 8/29/13 1:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer  wrote:

Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the actual quality
of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the quality of the
printer being used.

Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?


Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported
to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid,
whichever printer you use.


So, the typesetting advantages of LyX/LaTeX is retained in a PDF 
document?  That's great, since OS X has included native PDF export from 
the print dialog for some time.


I'm toying with, and working on, the beginnings of a couple of projects 
that will end with printing, and I want them to look good.


I'd thought about a desktop publishing program for the final setup, but 
I won't need the power of placing frames and such.  But want something 
better that the average word processor that will also work for me on a 
daily basis.



--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.04

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Ken Springer]

On 8/29/13 8:19 AM, Richard Heck wrote:

On 08/29/2013 03:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer  wrote:

Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the actual quality
of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the quality of the
printer being used.

Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?


Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported
to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid,
whichever printer you use.


Obviously, a low resolution printer will give worse printed output. This
is especially true since the fonts used are (usually) vector fonts.


Would you have a guess as to the minimum resolution a printer would have 
to have that would show the difference in the quality of the final 
print?  I'm thinking something the average computer user would possibly 
own, as opposed to a professional printing shop.






That said, my two books /Frege's Theorem/ and /Reading Frege's
_Grundgesetze_/ were both printed, by the publisher, from a PDF I
provided. And they look great, if I do say so myself. I assume they used
very good printers!

Richard




--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.04

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Ken Springer]

On 8/29/13 4:47 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 10:19:34 -0400
Richard Heck  wrote:


On 08/29/2013 03:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer 
wrote:

Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the
actual quality of the printed output from a LyX document will
depend on the quality of the printer being used.

Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?


Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported
to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be
rock-solid, whichever printer you use.


Obviously, a low resolution printer will give worse printed output.
This is especially true since the fonts used are (usually) vector
fonts.

That said, my two books /Frege's Theorem/ and /Reading Frege's
_Grundgesetze_/ were both printed, by the publisher, from a PDF I
provided. And they look great, if I do say so myself. I assume they
used very good printers!

Richard


Sort of on topic: After becoming dissatisfied with the 26 minute print
time, on my new Brother MFC-8810dw 40ppm printer, of my book "Manager's
Guide to Technical Troubleshooting
(http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/mg.htm), I set the print
resolution down from 1200x1200dpi to 600x600dpi (11 minutes, yeah!), my
admittedly old eyes could find no appreciable difference in the print,
except for an almost imperceptable lightening at 600dpi. But the images
were another matter: They looked better at 600 because 1200 showcased
the mistakes and pixellations of the artwork itself.



What would have happened if you applied stochastic screening to the 
images?  I'm assuming that would be retained in a PDF file.








To bring this back to on-topicness, the print resulting from LyX looks
good at any resolution, always assuming you pick a good font for
printing (I like Century Schoolbook).

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance




--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.04

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 18:51:24 -0600
Ken Springer  wrote:

> On 8/29/13 4:47 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> > On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 10:19:34 -0400
> > Richard Heck  wrote:
> >
> >> On 08/29/2013 03:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:
> >>> On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer 
> >>> wrote:
>  Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the
>  actual quality of the printed output from a LyX document will
>  depend on the quality of the printer being used.
> 
>  Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?
> 
> >>> Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
> >>> quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once
> >>> exported to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should
> >>> be rock-solid, whichever printer you use.
> >>
> >> Obviously, a low resolution printer will give worse printed output.
> >> This is especially true since the fonts used are (usually) vector
> >> fonts.
> >>
> >> That said, my two books /Frege's Theorem/ and /Reading Frege's
> >> _Grundgesetze_/ were both printed, by the publisher, from a PDF I
> >> provided. And they look great, if I do say so myself. I assume they
> >> used very good printers!
> >>
> >> Richard
> >
> > Sort of on topic: After becoming dissatisfied with the 26 minute
> > print time, on my new Brother MFC-8810dw 40ppm printer, of my book
> > "Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting
> > (http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/mg.htm), I set the print
> > resolution down from 1200x1200dpi to 600x600dpi (11 minutes,
> > yeah!), my admittedly old eyes could find no appreciable difference
> > in the print, except for an almost imperceptable lightening at
> > 600dpi. But the images were another matter: They looked better at
> > 600 because 1200 showcased the mistakes and pixellations of the
> > artwork itself.
> 
> 
> What would have happened if you applied stochastic screening to the 
> images?  I'm assuming that would be retained in a PDF file.

Deeeud!

You're getting so tweak here I had to look up stochastic screening on
Wikipedia.

The graphics involved were:

1) A photo I took of a wrench

2) Various diagrams I did in Dia, Inkscape and Gimp.

Since I don't believe LaTeX can natively handle .svg, a lot of this
depends on the conversion LyX uses (which of course you can configure).
Keep in mind also that filesize goes way up with resolution, and that
makes it costly to email or download PDFs, and taxes printers in terms
of making the engine stop while loading the next big image.

I've known about stochastic screening for all of five minutes now
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_screening) so let me dazzle
you with my opinions...

Any laserprinter I ever used used, as far as I know, a certain number
of dots per inch, each dot being a certain shade (I use
monochrome/grayscale) or color (if you want each page to cost you a
dime or a quarter or whatever). The shades are made from dot size,
with "dots" being a whole bunch of dots from the dpi measurement. As far
as I know, they cannot vary placement of their dots, only shade or
color via size (AM). So even if the PDF looked great on the screen, I'd
imagine the printer would have limited ability to reproduce the (FM)
stochastic screening.

Indeed, the Wikipedia page talks of stochastic screening mainly in
terms of printing from plates (which I presume assumes print runs of at
least 100), and not from laser printers.

I just searched Inscape+"stochastic screening" and got a bunch of
useless stuff including an anti-Obama site (what, how'd Google do
that?). Then I did the same thing for LaTeX, nothing ontopic for us.
Same thing with "Computer monitors". One site said most inkjet printers
use stochastic screening.

I don't think stochastic screening will come into your life unless
you're using a very unusual printer, or long-run print at a print
house. It won't help me, AFAIK, because today's monitors can't use it. 

If filesize is no object, just go 1200dpi, and make sure your .svg
to .eps conversions are high resolution. If filesize *is* an issue, you
appear to know a lot more than I about how to minimize pixelization,
moire, and all that stuff.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX

[Ken Springer]

On 8/29/13 8:08 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 18:51:24 -0600
Ken Springer  wrote:


On 8/29/13 4:47 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 10:19:34 -0400
Richard Heck  wrote:


On 08/29/2013 03:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer 
wrote:

Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the
actual quality of the printed output from a LyX document will
depend on the quality of the printer being used.

Right or wrong?  If wrong, why?


Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the
quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once
exported to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should
be rock-solid, whichever printer you use.


Obviously, a low resolution printer will give worse printed output.
This is especially true since the fonts used are (usually) vector
fonts.

That said, my two books /Frege's Theorem/ and /Reading Frege's
_Grundgesetze_/ were both printed, by the publisher, from a PDF I
provided. And they look great, if I do say so myself. I assume they
used very good printers!

Richard


Sort of on topic: After becoming dissatisfied with the 26 minute
print time, on my new Brother MFC-8810dw 40ppm printer, of my book
"Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting
(http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/mg.htm), I set the print
resolution down from 1200x1200dpi to 600x600dpi (11 minutes,
yeah!), my admittedly old eyes could find no appreciable difference
in the print, except for an almost imperceptable lightening at
600dpi. But the images were another matter: They looked better at
600 because 1200 showcased the mistakes and pixellations of the
artwork itself.



What would have happened if you applied stochastic screening to the
images?  I'm assuming that would be retained in a PDF file.


Deeeud!

You're getting so tweak here I had to look up stochastic screening on
Wikipedia.

The graphics involved were:

1) A photo I took of a wrench

2) Various diagrams I did in Dia, Inkscape and Gimp.


I had to look up Dia, and thanks for that.  I've added the downloading 
of the Mac and Windows versions to my to do list.



Since I don't believe LaTeX can natively handle .svg, a lot of this
depends on the conversion LyX uses (which of course you can configure).
Keep in mind also that filesize goes way up with resolution, and that
makes it costly to email or download PDFs, and taxes printers in terms
of making the engine stop while loading the next big image.


.svg is a vector graphics file format.  Stochastic screening is for 
bitmapped files.  It works best on lower resolution printers.  It's been 
years since I've use stochastic screening, so I don't know how it would 
look on a 1200 dpi laser, for instance.  But on a 300 dpi laser, you 
would not believe how "real" a printed a photograph can look.


I've got a 20 year old computer in the back room with a desktop 
publishing program on it that has a stochastic screening module.



I've known about stochastic screening for all of five minutes now
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_screening) so let me dazzle
you with my opinions...

Any laserprinter I ever used used, as far as I know, a certain number
of dots per inch, each dot being a certain shade (I use
monochrome/grayscale) or color (if you want each page to cost you a
dime or a quarter or whatever). The shades are made from dot size,
with "dots" being a whole bunch of dots from the dpi measurement. As far
as I know, they cannot vary placement of their dots, only shade or
color via size (AM). So even if the PDF looked great on the screen, I'd
imagine the printer would have limited ability to reproduce the (FM)
stochastic screening.


You are correct on the dpi part, and contemporary printers can emulate 
dpi output resolutions lower than what they are capable of.


However, you're wrong on each dot being a certain shade.  The dot 
produced by a B laser is either black or white.  White meaning no 
toner is applied to the paper.  You can't change the color/shade of the 
toner.


Where people go wrong is making the assumption that the dot produced by 
the printer is a 1:1 ratio with the dot being printed.  I.E., one 
printer dot for each dot/pixel in the photo.


In reality, a number of printer dots are used to create the single 
dot/pixel in a bitmapped graphic file.  This is where the line screen 
frequency, or LPI, comes into play.


A square grid of printed dots is used to create a single pixel from the 
bitmapped graphic.  Unless things have changed, the maximum number of 
possible grey shades is 256.  (Actually, it's 257, but that's not a 
multiple of 2.)  So the best possible greyscale picture that you can 
print has a maximum of 256 shades of grey.


Example...

For ease of this post, let's say you use a 3X3 square of printer dots to 
create the single pixel dot in the graphic.  And, you want 50% grey. 
For a single row of pixels from 

Re: Question: Using LyX as your daily word processor

[Ken Springer]

On 8/17/13 7:30 AM, Ken Springer wrote:

I'm always looking for software that fits me better, giving me the
output I'm looking for.

I'm interested in knowing what users of LyX think of the idea of using
it as a general word processor, instead of MS Word, Libre Office,
Apple's Pages, etc.

Pluses?  Minuses?


I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. 
 I think, after some more questions here, I'll give it a try.



--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.04

Re: Question: Using LyX as your daily word processor

[Ken Springer]

On 8/17/13 7:30 AM, Ken Springer wrote:

I'm always looking for software that fits me better, giving me the
output I'm looking for.

I'm interested in knowing what users of LyX think of the idea of using
it as a general word processor, instead of MS Word, Libre Office,
Apple's Pages, etc.

Pluses?  Minuses?


I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. 
 I think, after some more questions here, I'll give it a try.



--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.04

Re: Question: Using LyX as your daily word processor

[Ken Springer]

On 8/17/13 7:30 AM, Ken Springer wrote:

I'm always looking for software that fits me better, giving me the
output I'm looking for.

I'm interested in knowing what users of LyX think of the idea of using
it as a general word processor, instead of MS Word, Libre Office,
Apple's Pages, etc.

Pluses?  Minuses?


I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. 
 I think, after some more questions here, I'll give it a try.



--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.04

Re: Question: Using LyX as your daily word processor

[Dr Eberhard Lisse]

Even better, at the Technical University in Aachen they came with
wonderful orange boxes to hold approximately a 10 cm stack of the
cards so you kept them on your desk to write notes on the cards.

I think I still have one with a few cards left at my mother's house
:-)-O

el


On 2013-08-25 15:04 , John Kane wrote:
 Kids.!  Remember SGML on the IBM mainframe?

 And did you know that you could use IBM punch cards as postcards?
 

Re: Question: Using LyX as your daily word processor

[Dr Eberhard Lisse]

Even better, at the Technical University in Aachen they came with
wonderful orange boxes to hold approximately a 10 cm stack of the
cards so you kept them on your desk to write notes on the cards.

I think I still have one with a few cards left at my mother's house
:-)-O

el


On 2013-08-25 15:04 , John Kane wrote:
 Kids.!  Remember SGML on the IBM mainframe?

 And did you know that you could use IBM punch cards as postcards?
 

Re: Question: Using LyX as your daily word processor

[Dr Eberhard Lisse]

Even better, at the Technical University in Aachen they came with
wonderful orange boxes to hold approximately a 10 cm stack of the
cards so you kept them on your desk to write notes on the cards.

I think I still have one with a few cards left at my mother's house
:-)-O

el


On 2013-08-25 15:04 , John Kane wrote:
> Kids.!  Remember SGML on the IBM mainframe?
>
> And did you know that you could use IBM punch cards as postcards?
> 

Re: Question: Using LyX as your daily word processor

[Wolfgang Keller]

 The new (4.0 IIRC) version of LibreOffice had problems on the Mac 

I'm at 4.1.

But I don't have a clue of its math support, since I wouldn't use it
for writing documents anyway.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

Re: Question: Using LyX as your daily word processor

[Wolfgang Keller]

 Version 1.0.0 of the software was released in 1999. 
 by the way, in Tübingen, my home town

braggard

And it's hosted at one of my almae matres.

At least the FTP server.

/braggard

;-

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

Re: Question: Using LyX as your daily word processor

[Wolfgang Keller]

   And I say this as a LyX-only writer for the past 15 years or so.
 
  The first public LyX version was when? Can't have been much longer
  than 10 years ago.
 
That was a typo and should have been 15, as the original message said.

I know Lyrix was implemented first using XForms some time late in the
90s, but it must have been after 1995.

And I didn't really consider it as usable around 1998, when I tried it
the first time. Neither Scientific Workplace, which I tried as well at
that time. I stuck with Framemaker back then.
 
 Way earlier than that. I switched to Lyx after I completed my
 dissertation (which I wrote in Framemaker, on a NeXt cube. Boy am I
 old!).

Topper

That's nothing.

Framemaker? NeXt? Pampered upperclass brat.

Remember Wordstar (don't know which version) on plain MS DOS?

/Topper

;-

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

Re: Question: Using LyX as your daily word processor

[John Kane]

Kids.!
Remember SGML on the IBM mainframe? 

And did you know that you could use IBM punch cards as postcards?





 From: Wolfgang Keller felip...@gmx.net
To: LyX Users List lyx-users@lists.lyx.org 
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 9:01:08 AM
Subject: Re: Question: Using LyX as your daily word processor
 

   And I say this as a LyX-only writer for the past 15 years or so.
 
  The first public LyX version was when? Can't have been much longer
  than 10 years ago.

That was a typo and should have been 15, as the original message said.

I know Lyrix was implemented first using XForms some time late in the
90s, but it must have been after 1995.

And I didn't really consider it as usable around 1998, when I tried it
the first time. Neither Scientific Workplace, which I tried as well at
that time. I stuck with Framemaker back then.

 Way earlier than that. I switched to Lyx after I completed my
 dissertation (which I wrote in Framemaker, on a NeXt cube. Boy am I
 old!).

Topper

That's nothing.

Framemaker? NeXt? Pampered upperclass brat.

Remember Wordstar (don't know which version) on plain MS DOS?

/Topper

;-

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

Re: Question: Using LyX as your daily word processor

[David L. Johnson]

On 08/25/2013 09:01 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
That was a typo and should have been 15, as the original message said. 
I know Lyrix was implemented first using XForms some time late in the 
90s, but it must have been after 1995.


Not exactly.  It began either in 95 or earlier, and the original widget 
library was Motif, not Xforms.  I had a linux box with motif (that I had 
purchased) at the time, and would provide binaries with 
statically-linked Motif for those who did not have their own (most linux 
users did not, since Motif was never open-source.  The notif clone was 
not available then, either.


I haven't been able to find 0.7 or older source code for LyX, but 
scanning my directories I found a file written in 0.7, in 1995.  Here is 
the header of that file:


#This file was created by (null) Sat Nov 25 02:07:18 1995
#LyX 0.7 (C) 1995 Matthias Ettrich
\lyxformat 2.10

The original versions did not display math at all, but showed any math 
as ERT.  It still was easier to work with (for me, anyway) than plain 
LaTeX.  Once the displayed math came along, it was much, much better.



Way earlier than that. I switched to Lyx after I completed my
dissertation (which I wrote in Framemaker, on a NeXt cube. Boy am I
old!).
Topper

That's nothing.

Framemaker? NeXt? Pampered upperclass brat.
The NeXt was such a pile.  For the time, great GUI, but the CPU was 
incredibly slow (Motorola 608030 if memory serves), and that r/w optical 
drive!


Remember Wordstar (don't know which version) on plain MS DOS?
Oh, yeah.  Plus various technical-writing programs, some more wysiwyg 
than others, but the printout usually was horrible.



--

David L. Johnson
Department of Mathematics
Lehigh University

Re: Question: Using LyX as your daily word processor

[Wolfgang Keller]

 The new (4.0 IIRC) version of LibreOffice had problems on the Mac 

I'm at 4.1.

But I don't have a clue of its math support, since I wouldn't use it
for writing documents anyway.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

Re: Question: Using LyX as your daily word processor

[Wolfgang Keller]

 Version 1.0.0 of the software was released in 1999. 
 by the way, in Tübingen, my home town

braggard

And it's hosted at one of my almae matres.

At least the FTP server.

/braggard

;-

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

Re: Question: Using LyX as your daily word processor

[Wolfgang Keller]

   And I say this as a LyX-only writer for the past 15 years or so.
 
  The first public LyX version was when? Can't have been much longer
  than 10 years ago.
 
That was a typo and should have been 15, as the original message said.

I know Lyrix was implemented first using XForms some time late in the
90s, but it must have been after 1995.

And I didn't really consider it as usable around 1998, when I tried it
the first time. Neither Scientific Workplace, which I tried as well at
that time. I stuck with Framemaker back then.
 
 Way earlier than that. I switched to Lyx after I completed my
 dissertation (which I wrote in Framemaker, on a NeXt cube. Boy am I
 old!).

Topper

That's nothing.

Framemaker? NeXt? Pampered upperclass brat.

Remember Wordstar (don't know which version) on plain MS DOS?

/Topper

;-

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

Re: Question: Using LyX as your daily word processor

[John Kane]

Kids.!
Remember SGML on the IBM mainframe? 

And did you know that you could use IBM punch cards as postcards?





 From: Wolfgang Keller felip...@gmx.net
To: LyX Users List lyx-users@lists.lyx.org 
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 9:01:08 AM
Subject: Re: Question: Using LyX as your daily word processor
 

   And I say this as a LyX-only writer for the past 15 years or so.
 
  The first public LyX version was when? Can't have been much longer
  than 10 years ago.

That was a typo and should have been 15, as the original message said.

I know Lyrix was implemented first using XForms some time late in the
90s, but it must have been after 1995.

And I didn't really consider it as usable around 1998, when I tried it
the first time. Neither Scientific Workplace, which I tried as well at
that time. I stuck with Framemaker back then.

 Way earlier than that. I switched to Lyx after I completed my
 dissertation (which I wrote in Framemaker, on a NeXt cube. Boy am I
 old!).

Topper

That's nothing.

Framemaker? NeXt? Pampered upperclass brat.

Remember Wordstar (don't know which version) on plain MS DOS?

/Topper

;-

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

Re: Question: Using LyX as your daily word processor

[David L. Johnson]

On 08/25/2013 09:01 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
That was a typo and should have been 15, as the original message said. 
I know Lyrix was implemented first using XForms some time late in the 
90s, but it must have been after 1995.


Not exactly.  It began either in 95 or earlier, and the original widget 
library was Motif, not Xforms.  I had a linux box with motif (that I had 
purchased) at the time, and would provide binaries with 
statically-linked Motif for those who did not have their own (most linux 
users did not, since Motif was never open-source.  The notif clone was 
not available then, either.


I haven't been able to find 0.7 or older source code for LyX, but 
scanning my directories I found a file written in 0.7, in 1995.  Here is 
the header of that file:


#This file was created by (null) Sat Nov 25 02:07:18 1995
#LyX 0.7 (C) 1995 Matthias Ettrich
\lyxformat 2.10

The original versions did not display math at all, but showed any math 
as ERT.  It still was easier to work with (for me, anyway) than plain 
LaTeX.  Once the displayed math came along, it was much, much better.



Way earlier than that. I switched to Lyx after I completed my
dissertation (which I wrote in Framemaker, on a NeXt cube. Boy am I
old!).
Topper

That's nothing.

Framemaker? NeXt? Pampered upperclass brat.
The NeXt was such a pile.  For the time, great GUI, but the CPU was 
incredibly slow (Motorola 608030 if memory serves), and that r/w optical 
drive!


Remember Wordstar (don't know which version) on plain MS DOS?
Oh, yeah.  Plus various technical-writing programs, some more wysiwyg 
than others, but the printout usually was horrible.



--

David L. Johnson
Department of Mathematics
Lehigh University

Re: Question: Using LyX as your daily word processor

[Wolfgang Keller]

> The new (4.0 IIRC) version of LibreOffice had problems on the Mac 

I'm at 4.1.

But I don't have a clue of its math support, since I wouldn't use it
for writing documents anyway.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

Re: Question: Using LyX as your daily word processor

[Wolfgang Keller]

> Version 1.0.0 of the software was released in 1999. 
> by the way, in Tübingen, my home town



And it's hosted at one of my almae matres.

At least the FTP server.



>;->

Sincerely,

Wolfgang