Re: [Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists Turkish occupation (Green Left Weekly)

[Chris Slee via Marxism]

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RKOB says:


"You say: "Its troop strength in Rojava had been reduced". But WHY had
Assads troop strength in Rojava been reduced? WHY did Assad not put
enough military troops to Rojava but very many to the other parts of the
country?! If Assads relations with the YPG would have been as bad as
with the FSA et al, he would have fought for control over the Kurdish

North of the country. But he did not."


Assad's priority was to hold onto the densely populated western part of Syria, 
including the major cities Damascus and Aleppo.  Hence he reduced his troop 
presence in northeastern Syria.


This made it relatively easy for the Rojava uprising to succeed.


Chris Slee



From: Marxism  on behalf of RKOB via 
Marxism 
Sent: Friday, 14 September 2018 9:49 PM
To: Chris Slee
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists Turkish 
occupation (Green Left Weekly)

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But comrade, look, your arguments lack inner logic.

We agree that has been no or very little violence in the "Rojava
Revolution" but very much violence in the Syrian Revolution.

Your explanation for this is: "Presumably the soldiers had no desire to
die for Assad. Hence they surrendered."

If that would be the explanation, one has to ask: why did the Assadist
soldiers have "no desire to die for Assad" in Rojava but, presumable,
had "very much desire to die for Assad" in the rest of the country?!

You say: "Its troop strength in Rojava had been reduced". But WHY had
Assads troop strength in Rojava been reduced? WHY did Assad not put
enough military troops to Rojava but very many to the other parts of the
country?! If Assads relations with the YPG would have been as bad as
with the FSA et al, he would have fought for control over the Kurdish
North of the country. But he did not.

No, comrade, your explanation simply lack any logic. It is obvious that
Assad always viewed the YPG as a qualitative lesser evil than the Syrian
Revolution and that his regime agreed in summer 2012 about handing over
this part of the country to the YPG. For that reason they have not too
much difficulties now to negotiate again.


Am 14.09.2018 um 12:14 schrieb Chris Slee:
> It is incorrect to say that "not a single shot [was] fired" in the July 2012 
> Rojava uprising.  There was some small-scale armed conflict in Derik and 
> Afrin.
>
> But it is true that opposition to the uprising was limited.  This was because 
> the Assadist army was fully occupied with the rebellion elsewhere in Syria.  
> Its troop strength in Rojava had been reduced.  Presumably the soldiers had 
> no desire to die for Assad.  Hence they surrendered.
>
> Regarding the events in the rest of the country, I said in my article that 
> there was a "popular uprising against the brutal dictatorship of Bashar 
> al-Assad". However Turkey and the Gulf states armed and funded reactionary 
> rebel groups.  This had the effect of, over time, changing the nature of the 
> rebellion.
>
> Chris Slee
>
>
>
>
> ________
> From: Marxism  on behalf of RKOB via 
> Marxism 
> Sent: Friday, 14 September 2018 4:51 PM
> To: Chris Slee
> Subject: Re: [Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists 
> Turkish occupation (Green Left Weekly)
>
>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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> *
>
> Let us leave aside our ideological differences for a moment and focus on
> simple facts.
>
> How do you explain that the regime fights with all its brutal might
> against the uprising people in Damascus, Aleppo, Idlib, Raqqa etc. and
> kills tens of thousands (or more) in 2011-12. But when there is an
> uprising in "Rojava", not a single shot is fired and the Assadist
> military just withdraws! You can not seriously claim that Assad had
> become a pacifist!
>
> So how can you call the eve

Re: [Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists Turkish occupation (Green Left Weekly)

[RKOB via Marxism]

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But comrade, look, your arguments lack inner logic.

We agree that has been no or very little violence in the "Rojava 
Revolution" but very much violence in the Syrian Revolution.


Your explanation for this is: "Presumably the soldiers had no desire to 
die for Assad. Hence they surrendered."


If that would be the explanation, one has to ask: why did the Assadist 
soldiers have "no desire to die for Assad" in Rojava but, presumable, 
had "very much desire to die for Assad" in the rest of the country?!


You say: "Its troop strength in Rojava had been reduced". But WHY had 
Assads troop strength in Rojava been reduced? WHY did Assad not put 
enough military troops to Rojava but very many to the other parts of the 
country?! If Assads relations with the YPG would have been as bad as 
with the FSA et al, he would have fought for control over the Kurdish 
North of the country. But he did not.


No, comrade, your explanation simply lack any logic. It is obvious that 
Assad always viewed the YPG as a qualitative lesser evil than the Syrian 
Revolution and that his regime agreed in summer 2012 about handing over 
this part of the country to the YPG. For that reason they have not too 
much difficulties now to negotiate again.



Am 14.09.2018 um 12:14 schrieb Chris Slee:

It is incorrect to say that "not a single shot [was] fired" in the July 2012 
Rojava uprising.  There was some small-scale armed conflict in Derik and Afrin.

But it is true that opposition to the uprising was limited.  This was because 
the Assadist army was fully occupied with the rebellion elsewhere in Syria.  
Its troop strength in Rojava had been reduced.  Presumably the soldiers had no 
desire to die for Assad.  Hence they surrendered.

Regarding the events in the rest of the country, I said in my article that there was a 
"popular uprising against the brutal dictatorship of Bashar al-Assad". However 
Turkey and the Gulf states armed and funded reactionary rebel groups.  This had the 
effect of, over time, changing the nature of the rebellion.

Chris Slee





From: Marxism  on behalf of RKOB via Marxism 

Sent: Friday, 14 September 2018 4:51 PM
To: Chris Slee
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists Turkish 
occupation (Green Left Weekly)

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Let us leave aside our ideological differences for a moment and focus on
simple facts.

How do you explain that the regime fights with all its brutal might
against the uprising people in Damascus, Aleppo, Idlib, Raqqa etc. and
kills tens of thousands (or more) in 2011-12. But when there is an
uprising in "Rojava", not a single shot is fired and the Assadist
military just withdraws! You can not seriously claim that Assad had
become a pacifist!

So how can you call the events in "Rojava" a "revolution" and support it
but the events in the rest of country not?!





--
Revolutionär-Kommunistische Organisation BEFREIUNG
(Österreichische Sektion der RCIT, www.thecommunists.net)
www.rkob.net
ak...@rkob.net
Tel./SMS/WhatsApp/Telegram: +43-650-4068314



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Re: [Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists Turkish occupation (Green Left Weekly)

[Chris Slee via Marxism]

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It is incorrect to say that "not a single shot [was] fired" in the July 2012 
Rojava uprising.  There was some small-scale armed conflict in Derik and Afrin.

But it is true that opposition to the uprising was limited.  This was because 
the Assadist army was fully occupied with the rebellion elsewhere in Syria.  
Its troop strength in Rojava had been reduced.  Presumably the soldiers had no 
desire to die for Assad.  Hence they surrendered.

Regarding the events in the rest of the country, I said in my article that 
there was a "popular uprising against the brutal dictatorship of Bashar 
al-Assad". However Turkey and the Gulf states armed and funded reactionary 
rebel groups.  This had the effect of, over time, changing the nature of the 
rebellion.

Chris Slee





From: Marxism  on behalf of RKOB via 
Marxism 
Sent: Friday, 14 September 2018 4:51 PM
To: Chris Slee
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists Turkish 
occupation (Green Left Weekly)

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Let us leave aside our ideological differences for a moment and focus on
simple facts.

How do you explain that the regime fights with all its brutal might
against the uprising people in Damascus, Aleppo, Idlib, Raqqa etc. and
kills tens of thousands (or more) in 2011-12. But when there is an
uprising in "Rojava", not a single shot is fired and the Assadist
military just withdraws! You can not seriously claim that Assad had
become a pacifist!

So how can you call the events in "Rojava" a "revolution" and support it
but the events in the rest of country not?!



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Re: [Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists Turkish occupation (Green Left Weekly)

[mkaradjis via Marxism]

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"I have nothing to say to anyone who says “there are no jihadists
linked to” Al-Qaeda. Would you be more comfortable with the term
Islamist or Salafist?"

Hmm, you seem to have missed the point. Of course we all call HTS a
"jihadist" organisation. The point is it is not "linked to al-Qaida",
that is just "war on terror" talk.

"As for the idea that jihadists are in Al-Qaeda or Al-Nusra (“HTS”)
prisons for being jihadists, it is utterly surreal." I'm not aware of
any "al-Qaida" prisons in Idlib, what I pointed out was that HTS
prisons (which you like to call "Nusra" prisons) have some al-Qaida
cadre in them. I didn't say they were in prison for being "jihadists",
I said they were in HTS/jihadist prison for being al-Qaida.

Let me know if you require any further clarification.
On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 5:26 PM Matthew Harvey  wrote:
>
> There are no “jihadists linked to al-Qaida” in Idlib, as anyone free of 
> post-9/11 “war on
> terror” ideology is well aware[.]
>
>
> I have nothing to say to anyone who says “there are no jihadists linked to” 
> Al-Qaeda. Would you be more comfortable with the term Islamist or Salafist? 
> As for the idea that jihadists are in Al-Qaeda or Al-Nusra (“HTS”) prisons 
> for being jihadists, it is utterly surreal. Next thing you’ll be telling us 
> that the Salafists are really misunderstood social democrats.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 14, 2018, at 1:15 AM, mkaradjis  wrote:
>
> “This BBC article claims that the numbers of just Uighars numbers
> between 7,000 and 10,000 depending on the source. Of other ethnic
> fighters they say a “high concentration.”
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-45401474”.
>
> That article, dated September 2018, also made the claim that
> “thousands have taken up arms against the government, including
> jihadists linked to al-Qaeda.” To have some credibility, media such as
> the BBC should at least keep up to date. There are no “jihadists
> linked to al-Qaida” in Idlib, as anyone free of post-9/11 “war on
> terror” ideology is well aware, unless they mean the handful of
> pro-Qaida, ex-Nusra folk in Hurras al-Din, many of whom are in HTS
> prisons.
>
> Anyway, the article quotes Assadist MP Fares Shehabi that there are
> 10,000 Uighars in Idlib. Not sure if you consider a regime hack a
> credible source, but based on his assertion that there are 100,000
> “al-Qaida-linked” militants, my tendency would be to divide anything
> he says by about 100.
>
> As for the “war on terror” style AFP article:
>
> “This AFP article gives the number of just Uighar fighters (as opposed
> to them and their “families”) between 1 and several thousand. It also
> mentions high concentrations of Chechens.
> https://www.afp.com/en/news/23/foreign-fighters-syrias-idlib-face-last-stand-doc-18x6wz1”.
>
> The BBC article said “several thousand” including their families. So
> about 1000 fighters is probably about right. It also corresponds
> better to what we hear on the ground. There are not exactly daily
> reports of huge numbers of Uighar fighters, though here and there
> there is reference to the TIP. Certainly nothing in the order of
> either HTS or its opponents.
>
> Most estimates put HTS strength at about 10,000 fighters (that is also
> the number given in the BBC article by UN's special envoy for Syria,
> Staffan de Mistura, who erroneously claimed they were “associated with
> al-Qaeda.”
>
> However, referring to these numbers, Ahmad Abazeid, a Turkey-based
> Syrian analyst, “says that figure is an exaggeration and the fighters
> number only a few thousand.”
> https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/09/looming-battle-idlib-180908142026400.html
>
> I’m not sure who is correct, but one thing for sure is that Nusra
> numbers were never estimated as any higher than 10,000, though given
> that HTS is a coalition of Nusra (now JFS) with 5 very small groups
> (not all jihadist), Lister’s 12,000 figure may be correct, but again I
> would urge caution given Abazeid’s analysis.
>
> Overwhelmingly, these are Syrians, because when Nusra (now the core of
> HTS) and ISIS split in 2013, there was a very heavy divide between
> foreign fighters (overwhelmingly went with ISIS) and local fighters
> (overwhelmingly with Nusra); after all, Nusra resulted from a
> “Syrianisation” of this otherwise foreign invader force from Iraq.
> However, there are a small number of foreign fighters with HTS, mostly
> Arabs.
>
> Nearly all other armed groups in Greater Idlib (ie, Idlib, southern
> and western Aleppo province, northern Hama and Latakia) are part of
> the National Front for Liberation (NFL) coalition, which includes the
> Free Idlib Army, which is 

Re: [Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists Turkish occupation (Green Left Weekly)

[Matthew Harvey via Marxism]

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> There are no “jihadists linked to al-Qaida” in Idlib, as anyone free of 
> post-9/11 “war on
> terror” ideology is well aware[.] 

I have nothing to say to anyone who says “there are no jihadists linked to” 
Al-Qaeda. Would you be more comfortable with the term Islamist or Salafist? As 
for the idea that jihadists are in Al-Qaeda or Al-Nusra (“HTS”) prisons for 
being jihadists, it is utterly surreal. Next thing you’ll be telling us that 
the Salafists are really misunderstood social democrats. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 14, 2018, at 1:15 AM, mkaradjis  wrote:
> 
> “This BBC article claims that the numbers of just Uighars numbers
> between 7,000 and 10,000 depending on the source. Of other ethnic
> fighters they say a “high concentration.”
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-45401474”.
> 
> That article, dated September 2018, also made the claim that
> “thousands have taken up arms against the government, including
> jihadists linked to al-Qaeda.” To have some credibility, media such as
> the BBC should at least keep up to date. There are no “jihadists
> linked to al-Qaida” in Idlib, as anyone free of post-9/11 “war on
> terror” ideology is well aware, unless they mean the handful of
> pro-Qaida, ex-Nusra folk in Hurras al-Din, many of whom are in HTS
> prisons.
> 
> Anyway, the article quotes Assadist MP Fares Shehabi that there are
> 10,000 Uighars in Idlib. Not sure if you consider a regime hack a
> credible source, but based on his assertion that there are 100,000
> “al-Qaida-linked” militants, my tendency would be to divide anything
> he says by about 100.
> 
> As for the “war on terror” style AFP article:
> 
> “This AFP article gives the number of just Uighar fighters (as opposed
> to them and their “families”) between 1 and several thousand. It also
> mentions high concentrations of Chechens.
> https://www.afp.com/en/news/23/foreign-fighters-syrias-idlib-face-last-stand-doc-18x6wz1”.
> 
> The BBC article said “several thousand” including their families. So
> about 1000 fighters is probably about right. It also corresponds
> better to what we hear on the ground. There are not exactly daily
> reports of huge numbers of Uighar fighters, though here and there
> there is reference to the TIP. Certainly nothing in the order of
> either HTS or its opponents.
> 
> Most estimates put HTS strength at about 10,000 fighters (that is also
> the number given in the BBC article by UN's special envoy for Syria,
> Staffan de Mistura, who erroneously claimed they were “associated with
> al-Qaeda.”
> 
> However, referring to these numbers, Ahmad Abazeid, a Turkey-based
> Syrian analyst, “says that figure is an exaggeration and the fighters
> number only a few thousand.”
> https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/09/looming-battle-idlib-180908142026400.html
> 
> I’m not sure who is correct, but one thing for sure is that Nusra
> numbers were never estimated as any higher than 10,000, though given
> that HTS is a coalition of Nusra (now JFS) with 5 very small groups
> (not all jihadist), Lister’s 12,000 figure may be correct, but again I
> would urge caution given Abazeid’s analysis.
> 
> Overwhelmingly, these are Syrians, because when Nusra (now the core of
> HTS) and ISIS split in 2013, there was a very heavy divide between
> foreign fighters (overwhelmingly went with ISIS) and local fighters
> (overwhelmingly with Nusra); after all, Nusra resulted from a
> “Syrianisation” of this otherwise foreign invader force from Iraq.
> However, there are a small number of foreign fighters with HTS, mostly
> Arabs.
> 
> Nearly all other armed groups in Greater Idlib (ie, Idlib, southern
> and western Aleppo province, northern Hama and Latakia) are part of
> the National Front for Liberation (NFL) coalition, which includes the
> Free Idlib Army, which is itself a coalition of the major FSA groups
> in Idlib, and the Victory Army (Jaysh al-Nasr), another FSA coalition
> based in northern Hama. The NFL also includes Islamist groups like
> Ahrar al-Sham and many others.
> 
> According to Abazeid, “NFL is the biggest force [in Idlib] in terms of
> numbers and geographical presence and weaponry.” Most sources suggest
> it has some 30,000 fighters (some estimates are as high as 70,000).
> According to the article quoting Abazeid, he “also cast doubt on those
> estimates.” But the quote from him “casting doubt” is merely “But NFL
> is a local formation, not an organised army, and therefore it's
> difficult to estimate its numbers.”
> 
> That is very true: it is local; it is somewhat decentralised precisely
> because it is based directly in the communities and villages (as are
> most HTS cadre); 

Re: [Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists Turkish occupation (Green Left Weekly)

[RKOB via Marxism]

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Let us leave aside our ideological differences for a moment and focus on 
simple facts.


How do you explain that the regime fights with all its brutal might 
against the uprising people in Damascus, Aleppo, Idlib, Raqqa etc. and 
kills tens of thousands (or more) in 2011-12. But when there is an 
uprising in "Rojava", not a single shot is fired and the Assadist 
military just withdraws! You can not seriously claim that Assad had 
become a pacifist!


So how can you call the events in "Rojava" a "revolution" and support it 
but the events in the rest of country not?!



Am 14.09.2018 um 04:32 schrieb Nick Fredman via Marxism:

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The Revolution in Rojava book including its account of the uprising is
based on over 150 interviews within Rojava. The account of the uprising is
also based on reports from a Vice News team which reported from Rojava a
week after the uprising. The accounts of a deal with Assad all seem to come
from keyboard warriors in the US and Europe with no direct evidence of any
deals. You can disagree with the analysis of the authors or the positions
of the Apoist movement, fine, but smart-arse sneers about Bookhin don’t
really justify continued casual slanders made with little to no evidence of
fellow socialists over being handed Rojava for free, deals with Assad,
being armed by Assad, “ethnic cleansing” and the rest.

On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 at 11:43 am, Chris Slee via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:


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Extract from "Revolution in Rojava", p. 54:

'The Revolution begins in Kobani

'At 1 a.m. on the night of July 18-19, 2012, the YPG took control of the
roads leading in and out of Kobani city.  Inside the city, the majority of
the people, who supported the MGRK [Peoples Council of West Kurdistan],
occupied the state institutions.  "We had marked which buildings we should
take over", recalled Pelda Kobani, who participated that night, "which ones
were useful for the people, even bakeries" The people then assembled at the
regime army's strongpoint in Kobani, and a delegation informed the regime
soldiers, "if you give up your weapons, your security will be guaranteed".
The soldiers looked out over the mass of people, and seeing that they had
no alternative, they agreed; some returned to their families in the Arab
cities, while others preferred to remain in Kobani because they had lived
there for forty years.

'The state had no substantial military force", said Hanife Hisen.  "We
surrounded them...and they surrendered.  The regime could't send them any
reinforcements.  We didn't turn a single soldier over to the regime - we
just talked to them and called their families to come pick them up.  The
ones who wanted to join the FSA, we let them go to Turkey".  Heval Amer
points out that when the regime troops left, "we didn't let them take their
weapons.  So they left behind many, even heavy weapons".  Because the
liberation was bloodless, Hisen recalled, "people said the regime had
turned the weapons over to us.  But it's a lie".'


____
From: Marxism  on behalf of Chris
Slee via Marxism 
Sent: Thursday, 13 September 2018 3:04:04 PM
To: Chris Slee
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists
Turkish occupation (Green Left Weekly)

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My source is the book "Revolution in Rojava", by Michael Knapp, Anja Flack
and Ercan Ayboga (Pluto Press 2016), p. 54-56.


They based their report mainly on interviews with people who participated
in these events.


Chris Slee


________________
From: Marxism  on behalf of Louis
Proye

Re: [Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists Turkish occupation (Green Left Weekly)

[mkaradjis via Marxism]

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“This BBC article claims that the numbers of just Uighars numbers
between 7,000 and 10,000 depending on the source. Of other ethnic
fighters they say a “high concentration.”
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-45401474”.

That article, dated September 2018, also made the claim that
“thousands have taken up arms against the government, including
jihadists linked to al-Qaeda.” To have some credibility, media such as
the BBC should at least keep up to date. There are no “jihadists
linked to al-Qaida” in Idlib, as anyone free of post-9/11 “war on
terror” ideology is well aware, unless they mean the handful of
pro-Qaida, ex-Nusra folk in Hurras al-Din, many of whom are in HTS
prisons.

Anyway, the article quotes Assadist MP Fares Shehabi that there are
10,000 Uighars in Idlib. Not sure if you consider a regime hack a
credible source, but based on his assertion that there are 100,000
“al-Qaida-linked” militants, my tendency would be to divide anything
he says by about 100.

As for the “war on terror” style AFP article:

“This AFP article gives the number of just Uighar fighters (as opposed
to them and their “families”) between 1 and several thousand. It also
mentions high concentrations of Chechens.
https://www.afp.com/en/news/23/foreign-fighters-syrias-idlib-face-last-stand-doc-18x6wz1”.

The BBC article said “several thousand” including their families. So
about 1000 fighters is probably about right. It also corresponds
better to what we hear on the ground. There are not exactly daily
reports of huge numbers of Uighar fighters, though here and there
there is reference to the TIP. Certainly nothing in the order of
either HTS or its opponents.

Most estimates put HTS strength at about 10,000 fighters (that is also
the number given in the BBC article by UN's special envoy for Syria,
Staffan de Mistura, who erroneously claimed they were “associated with
al-Qaeda.”

However, referring to these numbers, Ahmad Abazeid, a Turkey-based
Syrian analyst, “says that figure is an exaggeration and the fighters
number only a few thousand.”
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/09/looming-battle-idlib-180908142026400.html

I’m not sure who is correct, but one thing for sure is that Nusra
numbers were never estimated as any higher than 10,000, though given
that HTS is a coalition of Nusra (now JFS) with 5 very small groups
(not all jihadist), Lister’s 12,000 figure may be correct, but again I
would urge caution given Abazeid’s analysis.

Overwhelmingly, these are Syrians, because when Nusra (now the core of
HTS) and ISIS split in 2013, there was a very heavy divide between
foreign fighters (overwhelmingly went with ISIS) and local fighters
(overwhelmingly with Nusra); after all, Nusra resulted from a
“Syrianisation” of this otherwise foreign invader force from Iraq.
However, there are a small number of foreign fighters with HTS, mostly
Arabs.

Nearly all other armed groups in Greater Idlib (ie, Idlib, southern
and western Aleppo province, northern Hama and Latakia) are part of
the National Front for Liberation (NFL) coalition, which includes the
Free Idlib Army, which is itself a coalition of the major FSA groups
in Idlib, and the Victory Army (Jaysh al-Nasr), another FSA coalition
based in northern Hama. The NFL also includes Islamist groups like
Ahrar al-Sham and many others.

According to Abazeid, “NFL is the biggest force [in Idlib] in terms of
numbers and geographical presence and weaponry.” Most sources suggest
it has some 30,000 fighters (some estimates are as high as 70,000).
According to the article quoting Abazeid, he “also cast doubt on those
estimates.” But the quote from him “casting doubt” is merely “But NFL
is a local formation, not an organised army, and therefore it's
difficult to estimate its numbers.”

That is very true: it is local; it is somewhat decentralised precisely
because it is based directly in the communities and villages (as are
most HTS cadre); it is an entirely indigenous fighting force.

And here’s the thing: the most entirely local, indigenous, Syrian
fighting forces are the FSA, and the mainstream Islamist groups.
Regardless of how one assesses the varying politics, they are
literally the sons of the soil.

Overwhelmingly, this is also true of the YPG, among Kurdish Syrians.
But just as HTS has a component of foreign fighters, so does the YPG.
It is well-known that even at a leadership level, some of the PYD are
actually PKK (ie, from Turkey). And everywhere that they either
liberated or conquered in Syria was blessed with a gigantic
cult-of-personality style portrait of Ocalan, a Turkish citizen.

Now, we are not obsessed with borders, and the Kurds can well 

Re: [Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists Turkish occupation (Green Left Weekly)

[Nick Fredman via Marxism]

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On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 at 12:43 pm, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>
> So what in hell's name is going on with you people? Don't you realize
> that you are morphing into an anarchist current? Why not go whole hog
> and find some Bakuninites to fuse with in Australia?


Well your problem apart from denial of any evidence you don’t like seems to
be some lingering symptoms of ortho-Trotskyism like thinking formal program
determines everything and an inability to understand solidarity and
collaboration that doesn’t involve ideological conformity.

Yes the Apoist in rejecting Stalinism have eclectically borrowed from
Bookchin as well as other sources, but their practice doesn’t seem very
different what what any socialist current could or should do in their
varied circumstances. Sure it’s justified and useful to make informed as
opposed to ignorant and dogmatic critiques of Apoism. I’ve mentioned Rahila
Gupta on their feminism before.

Whatever the justified critiques, we might, shocking as it might seem,
actually learn something from people leading millions in an anti-capitalist
movement, as well as by re-reading Lenin.

A number of Australian anarchists do have better poisitions and practice on
Syria, or on other issues, than a number of people with more impeccable
Leninist qualifications on paper. For example it was welcome that some
prominent Melbourne anarchists attended the recent large launch of the
Victorian Socialists. The large local Kurdish left are I understand also
supported of this electoral alliance, despite their opinions of Socialist
Alternative’s opinions on Syria. All a bit complicated maybe but that’s
life.



>
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Re: [Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists Turkish occupation (Green Left Weekly)

[Matthew Harvey via Marxism]

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This BBC article claims that the numbers of just Uighars numbers between 7,000 
and 10,000 depending on the source. Of other ethnic fighters they say a “high 
concentration.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-45401474

This AFP article gives the number of of just Uighar fighters (as opposed to 
them and their “families”) between 1 and several thousand. It also mentions 
high concentrations of Chechens. 

https://www.afp.com/en/news/23/foreign-fighters-syrias-idlib-face-last-stand-doc-18x6wz1

So I think “thousands” was a reasonable number. Now can you answer my question 
please? 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 13, 2018, at 10:00 PM, mkaradjis  wrote:
> 
> "thousands of foreign jihadists holed up in Idlib"
> Matt, do you mind providing sources for this piece of (mis)information?
> On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 4:41 AM Matt Harvey via Marxism
>  wrote:
>> 
>>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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>> *
>> 
>> "The YPG is a mercenary offering its services to the highest
>> bidder."
>> 
>> I'm agnostic verging on doubtful on the question of whether the Kurds
>> represent a truly revolutionary force. (The Scoop Jackson's Society's
>> trashing them is a vote in their favor though.)
>> 
>> But referring to any indigenous Syrian force as mercenaries when their are
>> thousands of foreign jihadists holed up in Idlib is either active hypocrisy
>> or political projection. In your framework are they like the
>> Internationalists who fought in Spain? I'm truly curious as to what armed
>> faction you think does represent the "revolutionary masses in Syria" and
>> who backs them.
>> _
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Re: [Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists Turkish occupation (Green Left Weekly)

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 9/13/18 10:32 PM, Nick Fredman via Marxism wrote:

The Revolution in Rojava book including its account of the uprising is
based on over 150 interviews within Rojava. The account of the uprising is
also based on reports from a Vice News team which reported from Rojava a
week after the uprising. The accounts of a deal with Assad all seem to come
from keyboard warriors in the US and Europe with no direct evidence of any
deals. You can disagree with the analysis of the authors or the positions
of the Apoist movement, fine, but smart-arse sneers about Bookhin don’t
really justify continued casual slanders made with little to no evidence of
fellow socialists over being handed Rojava for free, deals with Assad,
being armed by Assad, “ethnic cleansing” and the rest.


You don't seem to get it. Bookchin has a completely different 
understanding of socialism than Marxists. In fact, he is openly hostile 
to Marxism as this online book indicates:


Listen, Marxist! 
(https://www.marxists.org/archive/bookchin/1969/listen-marxist.htm)


The worker becomes a revolutionary not by becoming more of a worker but 
by undoing his "workerness." And in this he is not alone; the same 
applies to the farmer, the student, the clerk, the soldier, the 
bureaucrat, the professional—and the Marxist. The worker is no less a 
"bourgeois" than the farmer, student, clerk, soldier, bureaucrat, 
professional—and Marxist. His "workerness" is the disease he is 
suffering from, the social affliction telescoped to individual 
dimensions. Lenin understood this in What Is to Be Done? but he smuggled 
in the old hierarchy under a red flag and some revolutionary verbiage.


---

In the midst of a cataclysmic confrontation between the Syrian poor and 
a brutal family dynasty, the PYD chose to cut a deal with the regime to 
allow its utopian experiment to proceed.


Long before the Syrian revolution began, I took apart Bookchin's 
anti-Marxist ideology:


Bookchin's "libertarian municipalism" is offered as an alternative to 
the Marxist vision of a transformation of society led by the 
working-class. "Social ecology would embody its ethics in a politics of 
confederal municipalism, in which municipalities cojointly gain rights 
to self-governance through networks of confederal councils, to which 
towns and cities would send their mandated, recallable by delegates to 
adjust differences."


Okay, let's see if we can get this right. Capitalism will be replaced by 
a more humane system through the incremental replacement of capitalist 
chunks of real estate by new egalitarian units. Today we have liberated 
Putney, Vermont and Madison, Wisconsin. Next week we have a shot at 
taking over Dallas, Texas. When all the towns and cities have been 
become liberated zones, we then celebrate our victory by eating dishes 
of Ben and Jerry's ice cream.


full: http://www.columbia.edu/~lnp3/mydocs/economics/neo_utopian.htm

So what in hell's name is going on with you people? Don't you realize 
that you are morphing into an anarchist current? Why not go whole hog 
and find some Bakuninites to fuse with in Australia?

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Re: [Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists Turkish occupation (Green Left Weekly)

[Nick Fredman via Marxism]

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The Revolution in Rojava book including its account of the uprising is
based on over 150 interviews within Rojava. The account of the uprising is
also based on reports from a Vice News team which reported from Rojava a
week after the uprising. The accounts of a deal with Assad all seem to come
from keyboard warriors in the US and Europe with no direct evidence of any
deals. You can disagree with the analysis of the authors or the positions
of the Apoist movement, fine, but smart-arse sneers about Bookhin don’t
really justify continued casual slanders made with little to no evidence of
fellow socialists over being handed Rojava for free, deals with Assad,
being armed by Assad, “ethnic cleansing” and the rest.

On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 at 11:43 am, Chris Slee via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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> *
>
> Extract from "Revolution in Rojava", p. 54:
>
> 'The Revolution begins in Kobani
>
> 'At 1 a.m. on the night of July 18-19, 2012, the YPG took control of the
> roads leading in and out of Kobani city.  Inside the city, the majority of
> the people, who supported the MGRK [Peoples Council of West Kurdistan],
> occupied the state institutions.  "We had marked which buildings we should
> take over", recalled Pelda Kobani, who participated that night, "which ones
> were useful for the people, even bakeries" The people then assembled at the
> regime army's strongpoint in Kobani, and a delegation informed the regime
> soldiers, "if you give up your weapons, your security will be guaranteed".
> The soldiers looked out over the mass of people, and seeing that they had
> no alternative, they agreed; some returned to their families in the Arab
> cities, while others preferred to remain in Kobani because they had lived
> there for forty years.
>
> 'The state had no substantial military force", said Hanife Hisen.  "We
> surrounded them...and they surrendered.  The regime could't send them any
> reinforcements.  We didn't turn a single soldier over to the regime - we
> just talked to them and called their families to come pick them up.  The
> ones who wanted to join the FSA, we let them go to Turkey".  Heval Amer
> points out that when the regime troops left, "we didn't let them take their
> weapons.  So they left behind many, even heavy weapons".  Because the
> liberation was bloodless, Hisen recalled, "people said the regime had
> turned the weapons over to us.  But it's a lie".'
>
>
> ____________
> From: Marxism  on behalf of Chris
> Slee via Marxism 
> Sent: Thursday, 13 September 2018 3:04:04 PM
> To: Chris Slee
> Subject: Re: [Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists
> Turkish occupation (Green Left Weekly)
>
>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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> *
>
> My source is the book "Revolution in Rojava", by Michael Knapp, Anja Flack
> and Ercan Ayboga (Pluto Press 2016), p. 54-56.
>
>
> They based their report mainly on interviews with people who participated
> in these events.
>
>
> Chris Slee
>
>
> 
> From: Marxism  on behalf of Louis
> Proyect via Marxism 
> Sent: Thursday, 13 September 2018 10:37 AM
> To: Chris Slee
> Subject: Re: [Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists
> Turkish occupation (Green Left Weekly)
>
>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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>
> On 9/12/18 8:17 PM, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote:
> >   POSTING RULES & NOTES  **

Re: [Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists Turkish occupation (Green Left Weekly)

[mkaradjis via Marxism]

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"thousands of foreign jihadists holed up in Idlib"
Matt, do you mind providing sources for this piece of (mis)information?
On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 4:41 AM Matt Harvey via Marxism
 wrote:
>
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> *
>
> "The YPG is a mercenary offering its services to the highest
> bidder."
>
> I'm agnostic verging on doubtful on the question of whether the Kurds
> represent a truly revolutionary force. (The Scoop Jackson's Society's
> trashing them is a vote in their favor though.)
>
> But referring to any indigenous Syrian force as mercenaries when their are
> thousands of foreign jihadists holed up in Idlib is either active hypocrisy
> or political projection. In your framework are they like the
> Internationalists who fought in Spain? I'm truly curious as to what armed
> faction you think does represent the "revolutionary masses in Syria" and
> who backs them.
> _
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Re: [Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists Turkish occupation (Green Left Weekly)

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 9/13/18 9:42 PM, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote:

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Extract from "Revolution in Rojava", p. 54:

'The Revolution begins in Kobani

'At 1 a.m. on the night of July 18-19, 2012, the YPG took control of the roads leading in and out of Kobani 
city.  Inside the city, the majority of the people, who supported the MGRK [Peoples Council of West 
Kurdistan], occupied the state institutions.  "We had marked which buildings we should take over", 
recalled Pelda Kobani, who participated that night, "which ones were useful for the people, even 
bakeries" The people then assembled at the regime army's strongpoint in Kobani, and a delegation 
informed the regime soldiers, "if you give up your weapons, your security will be guaranteed".  The 
soldiers looked out over the mass of people, and seeing that they had no alternative, they agreed; some 
returned to their families in the Arab cities, while others preferred to remain in Kobani because they had 
lived there for forty years.

'The state had no substantial military force", said Hanife Hisen.  "We surrounded them...and they 
surrendered.  The regime could't send them any reinforcements.  We didn't turn a single soldier over to the regime 
- we just talked to them and called their families to come pick them up.  The ones who wanted to join the FSA, we 
let them go to Turkey".  Heval Amer points out that when the regime troops left, "we didn't let them 
take their weapons.  So they left behind many, even heavy weapons".  Because the liberation was bloodless, 
Hisen recalled, "people said the regime had turned the weapons over to us.  But it's a lie".'



What an idyllic scene. One supposes that the lack of bloodshed had 
something to do with the fact that Assad never directed his military to 
shoot Kurds protesting against his dictatorship. Oh, I just remembered. 
They never were involved with the protests. They were too busy figuring 
out ways to implement Murray Bookchin's utopian socialist schemas.

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Re: [Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists Turkish occupation (Green Left Weekly)

[Chris Slee via Marxism]

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Extract from "Revolution in Rojava", p. 54:

'The Revolution begins in Kobani

'At 1 a.m. on the night of July 18-19, 2012, the YPG took control of the roads 
leading in and out of Kobani city.  Inside the city, the majority of the 
people, who supported the MGRK [Peoples Council of West Kurdistan], occupied 
the state institutions.  "We had marked which buildings we should take over", 
recalled Pelda Kobani, who participated that night, "which ones were useful for 
the people, even bakeries" The people then assembled at the regime army's 
strongpoint in Kobani, and a delegation informed the regime soldiers, "if you 
give up your weapons, your security will be guaranteed".  The soldiers looked 
out over the mass of people, and seeing that they had no alternative, they 
agreed; some returned to their families in the Arab cities, while others 
preferred to remain in Kobani because they had lived there for forty years.

'The state had no substantial military force", said Hanife Hisen.  "We 
surrounded them...and they surrendered.  The regime could't send them any 
reinforcements.  We didn't turn a single soldier over to the regime - we just 
talked to them and called their families to come pick them up.  The ones who 
wanted to join the FSA, we let them go to Turkey".  Heval Amer points out that 
when the regime troops left, "we didn't let them take their weapons.  So they 
left behind many, even heavy weapons".  Because the liberation was bloodless, 
Hisen recalled, "people said the regime had turned the weapons over to us.  But 
it's a lie".'



From: Marxism  on behalf of Chris Slee via 
Marxism 
Sent: Thursday, 13 September 2018 3:04:04 PM
To: Chris Slee
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists Turkish 
occupation (Green Left Weekly)

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My source is the book "Revolution in Rojava", by Michael Knapp, Anja Flack and 
Ercan Ayboga (Pluto Press 2016), p. 54-56.


They based their report mainly on interviews with people who participated in 
these events.


Chris Slee



From: Marxism  on behalf of Louis Proyect 
via Marxism 
Sent: Thursday, 13 September 2018 10:37 AM
To: Chris Slee
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists Turkish 
occupation (Green Left Weekly)

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On 9/12/18 8:17 PM, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote:
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>
>
> https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/syria-assad-threatens-idlib-while-afrin-resists-turkish-occupation

>

 From the article above:

"In July 2012, an uprising occurred in three predominantly Kurdish
cantons known collectively as Rojava in the Kurdish language. People
surrounded the Assad regime’s military bases and called on the soldiers
to surrender. In most cases, they did so. With regime forces stretched
by fighting rebels on multiple fronts, those who resisted were quickly
defeated."

So what were the military bases that the Kurds surrounded and called
upon soldiers to surrender? I seem to have trouble finding a reference
to anything like that in Lexis-Nexis. Mostly, I find tons of references
to Assad abandoning territory to Kurds in order to focus on killing the
rebels that you people consider so politically backward compared to the
acolytes of Murray Bookchin. I admit that I have not read all the
hundreds of articles about Kurds and Assad in 2012 but the first 25 or
so read like this:


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Re: [Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists Turkish occupation (Green Left Weekly)

[Matt Harvey via Marxism]

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"The YPG is a mercenary offering its services to the highest
bidder."

I'm agnostic verging on doubtful on the question of whether the Kurds
represent a truly revolutionary force. (The Scoop Jackson's Society's
trashing them is a vote in their favor though.)

But referring to any indigenous Syrian force as mercenaries when their are
thousands of foreign jihadists holed up in Idlib is either active hypocrisy
or political projection. In your framework are they like the
Internationalists who fought in Spain? I'm truly curious as to what armed
faction you think does represent the "revolutionary masses in Syria" and
who backs them.
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Re: [Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists Turkish occupation (Green Left Weekly)

[RKOB via Marxism]

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This book is a translation from the German-language original which I 
posses (Anja Flach / Ercan Ayboğa / Michael Knapp: Revolution in Rojava. 
Frauenbewegung und Kommunalismus zwischen Krieg und Embargo, VSA: Verlag 
Hamburg 2015). It is an uncritical Apoist publication with a preface and 
postscript by Cemil Bayık resp. Asya Abdullah (bother leaders of the 
PKK/YPG).
By the way: In their contributions (17 pages combined), these two Apoist 
leaders write about the perspective of the revolution in Rojava and in 
the Middle East. They do not mention a single time the words "Assad", 
"Great Power" or "Imperialism/imperialist"! What a remarkable "coincidence"!
The book quotes indeed people reporting about the encirclement of a an 
Assadist military base in Kobani on 18-19 July 2012. After negotiations, 
the Assadist military agreed to hand over the base. Part of the soldiers 
went home, the other part stayed in Kobani.
It is characteristic that the whole taking over of the Kurdish areas by 
the YPG was completely unbloody - in opposite to the rest of Syria where 
the people rose up against the regime and a civil war started. This is 
because it was not a revolution but a secretly negotiated handover from 
the regime to the YPG (because the regime was forced to do so as it was 
under heavy pressure in the rest of the country where the people fought 
against the tyranny.)
Of course, I do not want to deny that there have been contradictions 
between the Assad regime and the PKK/YPG. They collaborated until 1998, 
then Assad had to kick out Öcalan because Turkey threatened with war. 
But it is very evident that the Assad tyranny views the YPG as a "lesser 
evil" compared to the revolutionary masses in Syria. From its point of 
view the Assad regime is right as the present negotiations with the YPG 
demonstrate. The YPG is a mercenary offering its services to the highest 
bidder.


--
Revolutionär-Kommunistische Organisation BEFREIUNG
(Österreichische Sektion der RCIT, www.thecommunists.net)
www.rkob.net
ak...@rkob.net
Tel./SMS/WhatsApp/Telegram: +43-650-4068314


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Re: [Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists Turkish occupation (Green Left Weekly)

[Chris Slee via Marxism]

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My source is the book "Revolution in Rojava", by Michael Knapp, Anja Flack and 
Ercan Ayboga (Pluto Press 2016), p. 54-56.


They based their report mainly on interviews with people who participated in 
these events.


Chris Slee



From: Marxism  on behalf of Louis Proyect 
via Marxism 
Sent: Thursday, 13 September 2018 10:37 AM
To: Chris Slee
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists Turkish 
occupation (Green Left Weekly)

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On 9/12/18 8:17 PM, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote:
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> https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/syria-assad-threatens-idlib-while-afrin-resists-turkish-occupation

>

 From the article above:

"In July 2012, an uprising occurred in three predominantly Kurdish
cantons known collectively as Rojava in the Kurdish language. People
surrounded the Assad regime’s military bases and called on the soldiers
to surrender. In most cases, they did so. With regime forces stretched
by fighting rebels on multiple fronts, those who resisted were quickly
defeated."

So what were the military bases that the Kurds surrounded and called
upon soldiers to surrender? I seem to have trouble finding a reference
to anything like that in Lexis-Nexis. Mostly, I find tons of references
to Assad abandoning territory to Kurds in order to focus on killing the
rebels that you people consider so politically backward compared to the
acolytes of Murray Bookchin. I admit that I have not read all the
hundreds of articles about Kurds and Assad in 2012 but the first 25 or
so read like this:


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Re: [Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists Turkish occupation (Green Left Weekly)

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 9/12/18 10:17 PM, Stuart Munckton wrote:

Nice evasion bout posting a bullshit article.


Okay, I confess the article is bullshit. So let's get that out of the way.

Now will you confess that the Greenleft article mentions incidents that 
nobody has ever heard about? It seems like everybody else in the world 
except the PYD and its diehard supporters like Socialist Alliance and 
David Graeber understand that the Kurds only developed their socialist 
utopia because they cut a deal with the dictatorship. I can see why you 
still see them as heroic fighters but maybe it wasn't a great idea 
journalistically speaking to write about heroic confrontations with the 
Baathist military that never took place. I am willing to admit that 
maybe such incidents did take place but I couldn't find any reference to 
them in Lexis-Nexis. The ball is in your end of the court.

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Re: [Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists Turkish occupation (Green Left Weekly)

[Stuart Munckton via Marxism]

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Nice evasion bout posting a bullshit article.

On Thu, 13 Sep 2018 at 12:05, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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> On 9/12/18 8:58 PM, Stuart Munckton via Marxism wrote:
> > The NYT piece is absurd, the bulk is the "analysis" of representatives
> of a
> > London-based neocoervative think tank. Further spin is provided by a
> quote
> > from a Turkish journalist accusing thePKK of being enforces for
> Assad,which
> > is pure slander. I am not sure what the article is meant to prove, pother
> > than the NYT will print rubbish.
>
> Nice evasion about Kurds forcefully ousting Assad's soldiers.
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Re: [Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists Turkish occupation (Green Left Weekly)

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 9/12/18 8:58 PM, Stuart Munckton via Marxism wrote:

The NYT piece is absurd, the bulk is the "analysis" of representatives of a
London-based neocoervative think tank. Further spin is provided by a quote
from a Turkish journalist accusing thePKK of being enforces for Assad,which
is pure slander. I am not sure what the article is meant to prove, pother
than the NYT will print rubbish.


Nice evasion about Kurds forcefully ousting Assad's soldiers.
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Re: [Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists Turkish occupation (Green Left Weekly)

[Stuart Munckton via Marxism]

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The NYT piece is absurd, the bulk is the "analysis" of representatives of a
London-based neocoervative think tank. Further spin is provided by a quote
from a Turkish journalist accusing thePKK of being enforces for Assad,which
is pure slander. I am not sure what the article is meant to prove, pother
than the NYT will print rubbish.

On Thu, 13 Sep 2018 at 10:38, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> On 9/12/18 8:17 PM, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote:
> >   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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> > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
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> >
> >
> >
> https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/syria-assad-threatens-idlib-while-afrin-resists-turkish-occupation
> >
>
>  From the article above:
>
> "In July 2012, an uprising occurred in three predominantly Kurdish
> cantons known collectively as Rojava in the Kurdish language. People
> surrounded the Assad regime’s military bases and called on the soldiers
> to surrender. In most cases, they did so. With regime forces stretched
> by fighting rebels on multiple fronts, those who resisted were quickly
> defeated."
>
> So what were the military bases that the Kurds surrounded and called
> upon soldiers to surrender? I seem to have trouble finding a reference
> to anything like that in Lexis-Nexis. Mostly, I find tons of references
> to Assad abandoning territory to Kurds in order to focus on killing the
> rebels that you people consider so politically backward compared to the
> acolytes of Murray Bookchin. I admit that I have not read all the
> hundreds of articles about Kurds and Assad in 2012 but the first 25 or
> so read like this:
>
> NY Times, April 19, 2012
> Kurds sit out the fighting in Syria; Long-oppressed group with hope of
> nation-state fears joining losing side
> By J. MICHAEL KENNEDY
>
> The Kurds of Syria, long oppressed by the government of President Bashar
> al-Assad, are largely staying out of the fighting that has gone on for
> more than a year in their country, hedging their bets as they watch to
> see who will gain the upper hand.
>
> Mr. Assad has made major efforts to keep them out of the fray, aware
> that their support for the opposition could prove decisive. He has
> promised that hundreds of thousands of Kurds will be given citizenship,
> something the ruling Assad family has denied them for nearly half a
> century.
>
> The Kurds have other reasons for holding back: The opposition movement
> in Syria is made up in large part by the Muslim Brotherhood and Arab
> nationalists, two groups that have little sympathy for Kurdish rights,
> and the Kurds cling to their long-sought goal of a Kurdish state.
>
> ''Syrian Kurds are, by and large, sitting out this dance,'' said
> Jonathan C. Randal, the author of a widely respected book on the Kurds -
> the largest ethnic group in the world without a state. Yet a recent
> report by the Henry Jackson Society, a foreign policy research institute
> in London, describes the Kurds as a ''decisive minority'' in the Syrian
> revolution and says their support would help in a ''rapid overthrow in
> the Assad regime.''
>
> The Kurds, who make up about 10 percent of the country's population,
> find themselves in something of a dilemma. If the revolution against Mr.
> Assad succeeds, their passive role will give them less of a say in how
> the country is ruled. But they also fear that any future government will
> be much more Islamist than the secular Assad government.
>
> As Michael Weiss, a spokesman for the institute, said, ''The Kurds don't
> want to join something that will lose.''
>
> That is not surprising, given the history of oppression of the Kurdish
> people, not only in Syria but also in Turkey, Iraq and Iran, the four
> countries that intersect the traditional Kurdish region, much of it
> rugged mountain terrain.
>
> In the past, they have been denied language, culture and any sort of
> national identity in those countries, though major changes have been
> made in oil-rich northern Iraq since the overthrow of Saddam Hussein.
>
> The history of their poor treatment in Syria is lengthy. But 

Re: [Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists Turkish occupation (Green Left Weekly)

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 9/12/18 8:17 PM, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote:

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https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/syria-assad-threatens-idlib-while-afrin-resists-turkish-occupation



From the article above:

"In July 2012, an uprising occurred in three predominantly Kurdish 
cantons known collectively as Rojava in the Kurdish language. People 
surrounded the Assad regime’s military bases and called on the soldiers 
to surrender. In most cases, they did so. With regime forces stretched 
by fighting rebels on multiple fronts, those who resisted were quickly 
defeated."


So what were the military bases that the Kurds surrounded and called 
upon soldiers to surrender? I seem to have trouble finding a reference 
to anything like that in Lexis-Nexis. Mostly, I find tons of references 
to Assad abandoning territory to Kurds in order to focus on killing the 
rebels that you people consider so politically backward compared to the 
acolytes of Murray Bookchin. I admit that I have not read all the 
hundreds of articles about Kurds and Assad in 2012 but the first 25 or 
so read like this:


NY Times, April 19, 2012
Kurds sit out the fighting in Syria; Long-oppressed group with hope of 
nation-state fears joining losing side

By J. MICHAEL KENNEDY

The Kurds of Syria, long oppressed by the government of President Bashar 
al-Assad, are largely staying out of the fighting that has gone on for 
more than a year in their country, hedging their bets as they watch to 
see who will gain the upper hand.


Mr. Assad has made major efforts to keep them out of the fray, aware 
that their support for the opposition could prove decisive. He has 
promised that hundreds of thousands of Kurds will be given citizenship, 
something the ruling Assad family has denied them for nearly half a century.


The Kurds have other reasons for holding back: The opposition movement 
in Syria is made up in large part by the Muslim Brotherhood and Arab 
nationalists, two groups that have little sympathy for Kurdish rights, 
and the Kurds cling to their long-sought goal of a Kurdish state.


''Syrian Kurds are, by and large, sitting out this dance,'' said 
Jonathan C. Randal, the author of a widely respected book on the Kurds - 
the largest ethnic group in the world without a state. Yet a recent 
report by the Henry Jackson Society, a foreign policy research institute 
in London, describes the Kurds as a ''decisive minority'' in the Syrian 
revolution and says their support would help in a ''rapid overthrow in 
the Assad regime.''


The Kurds, who make up about 10 percent of the country's population, 
find themselves in something of a dilemma. If the revolution against Mr. 
Assad succeeds, their passive role will give them less of a say in how 
the country is ruled. But they also fear that any future government will 
be much more Islamist than the secular Assad government.


As Michael Weiss, a spokesman for the institute, said, ''The Kurds don't 
want to join something that will lose.''


That is not surprising, given the history of oppression of the Kurdish 
people, not only in Syria but also in Turkey, Iraq and Iran, the four 
countries that intersect the traditional Kurdish region, much of it 
rugged mountain terrain.


In the past, they have been denied language, culture and any sort of 
national identity in those countries, though major changes have been 
made in oil-rich northern Iraq since the overthrow of Saddam Hussein.


The history of their poor treatment in Syria is lengthy. But the most 
notable event took place in 1962, when 120,000 Kurds had their 
citizenship denied on the grounds they were not born in Syria. Today, 
that number has roughly doubled because of descendants who cannot lay 
claim to citizenship.


In 1973, Syria began creating an ''Arab belt'' in northern Syria, 
confiscating Kurdish land and giving it to Arabs.


In 2004, Syrian security forces used live ammunition after clashes broke 
out between Kurds and Arabs at a soccer match in the northern Syrian 
town of Qamishli, killing at least 30 and wounding more than 160. After 
rioters burned down the local Baath Party headquarters and toppled a 
statue of former President Hafez al-Assad, hundreds of Kurds were arrested.


Besides the banning of the Kurdish language and books from schools, 
celebrations like Nowruz - the traditional Kurdish New Year - were long 

[Marxism] Syria: Assad threatens Idlib while Afrin resists Turkish occupation (Green Left Weekly)

[Chris Slee via Marxism]

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https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/syria-assad-threatens-idlib-while-afrin-resists-turkish-occupation

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