Re: [Marxism] Fwd: ‘Novorossiya’s’ ‘Leftist’ Friends | The Interpreter
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 02.06.2015 01:45, Sergii Kutnii via Marxism wrote: Well, Sahra Wagenknecht mentioned criticizing the federal government for wrong policy towards Russia in the same interview. Das sind keine Schnittmengen. Schon immer greifen Rechte Themen auf, die in der Bevölkerung populär sind. Und natürlich ist es richtig, die Bundesregierung für ihre falsche Russland-Politik zu kritisieren. Das tun Persönlichkeiten wie Helmut Schmidt oder Matthias Platzeck auch. So Volodarskyi's words Sara Wagenknecht of Die Linke has already publicly called for a dialogue with the ultra-right anti-immigration Pegida organization, appealing, first and foremost, given the proximity of their position on the Ukrainian and Russian question are not without foundation. Oh for fuck's sake! The whole of DIE LINKE is opposed to the confrontation politics of the federal government as are many otehr people. The full translation is: Those aren't overlaps. The [far] right always take up issues that are popular in the popular. And of course it's correct to criticise the government for its its incorrect policy towards Russia. That's something that personalities such as Helmut Schmidt [former SPD Chancellor] and Mathias Platzeck [former prime minister of Brandenburg and former chairman of SPD] also do. Or are you in favour of the EU going to war with Russia over the Ukraine? Einde O'Callaghan _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: ‘Novorossiya’s’ ‘Leftist’ Friends | The Interpreter
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 6/1/15 11:29 AM, A.R. G wrote: Much of the article is simply beyond analysis because it is just unsubstantiated attack after the next. Anarchists, American leftists, Maoists, xyz group of people one after the next are accused of some political crime or the other without any real attempt to cite instances, groups, etc. The article attempts to paint the left in the US or in Europe (ignoring the rest of the world) as though there is any sort of consistency among leftists. Pretty sure there isn't any. The main point of the article is incontrovertible, namely that the large majority of the Western left and the European fascist movement was hostile to Maidan and supports the Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics. Here is one example: Ukraine is Washington’s pretext for a conflict with Russia. The threat of conflict is evident from the flood of propaganda in the Zionist media. Putin is demonized daily as Saddam Hussein and Qaddafi were earlier, while known Zionist newspapers like the Washington Post and New York Times, present daily ‘evidence’ Russian troops are ready to invade Ukraine. The only things missing are the weapons of mass destruction in order to have a complete repeat. The events in Ukraine demonstrate clearly that American imperialism has launched a strategy, the first unsuccessful steps which were Syria and Iran, weakening and elimination of Russia as a Great Power. Russia is the most serious obstacle to the American imperialism to assert its hegemony in the Middle East, East Mediterranean, and Eurasia. full: https://news.vice.com/article/i-know-you-are-a-fascist-but-what-am-i Reading the above paragraphs, you would assume that it was something that Mike Whitney or Andre Vltchek might have written when in fact it was from a Golden Dawn statement. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: ‘Novorossiya’s’ ‘Leftist’ Friends | The Interpreter
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * The fact that Golden Dawn and the like support Putin just means that the far right is also not uniform. The far right in different countries have different agendas. It is like saying that Golden Dawn has, at various points, supported Palestine, while the far right in many parts of Europe and the US have also supported Israel. There were definitely far right groups in Ukraine that did support the Euro Maidan, the Svoboda Party being the most obvious example. In times of crisis, rightists will mobilize just as leftists will do. Re: The Western Left I have seen leftists in the West take many different positions. It's true that a significant segment basically threw in with Putin, although my guess would be that a significant number did not even wade in. But the article you posted goes far beyond this and draws a bunch of conclusions about American and European leftists with very little evidence. There does not appear to be any attempt at quantifying these various factions or even meaningfully defining who they are or who is in them or anything. It sounds like a guy just ranting about how shitty the left is (as though that is news) and then making one conjecture after the next to sully anti-imperialism as a whole. Considering who is behind the article I would not expect much better from them. - Amith On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 6:17 PM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: On 6/1/15 11:29 AM, A.R. G wrote: Much of the article is simply beyond analysis because it is just unsubstantiated attack after the next. Anarchists, American leftists, Maoists, xyz group of people one after the next are accused of some political crime or the other without any real attempt to cite instances, groups, etc. The article attempts to paint the left in the US or in Europe (ignoring the rest of the world) as though there is any sort of consistency among leftists. Pretty sure there isn't any. The main point of the article is incontrovertible, namely that the large majority of the Western left and the European fascist movement was hostile to Maidan and supports the Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics. Here is one example: Ukraine is Washington’s pretext for a conflict with Russia. The threat of conflict is evident from the flood of propaganda in the Zionist media. Putin is demonized daily as Saddam Hussein and Qaddafi were earlier, while known Zionist newspapers like the Washington Post and New York Times, present daily ‘evidence’ Russian troops are ready to invade Ukraine. The only things missing are the weapons of mass destruction in order to have a complete repeat. The events in Ukraine demonstrate clearly that American imperialism has launched a strategy, the first unsuccessful steps which were Syria and Iran, weakening and elimination of Russia as a Great Power. Russia is the most serious obstacle to the American imperialism to assert its hegemony in the Middle East, East Mediterranean, and Eurasia. full: https://news.vice.com/article/i-know-you-are-a-fascist-but-what-am-i Reading the above paragraphs, you would assume that it was something that Mike Whitney or Andre Vltchek might have written when in fact it was from a Golden Dawn statement. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: ‘Novorossiya’s’ ‘Leftist’ Friends | The Interpreter
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * This article struck me as a mix of meaningful criticisms and pure smear tactics. This paragraph in particular is telling: Living in a special, completely parallel universe are leftists from the United States, who prefer to fight the evil empire directly from within. In their view, the war in the Donbass started at the instigation of the United States and, obviously, because of oil. After all, every global conflict is waged by the United States and always because of oil. And yes, the “Odessa carnage” was also planned by the United States, in case you had any doubts on that score. The United States and its leftists are not in a parellel universe. What happens in Europe -- and the way Americans react to it -- is every bit a part of American political culture as it is in Europe. That is the nature of America as an imperial power, let alone one which inherited much of Europe's history. There is no reason to suggest, in my view, that American leftists who romanticize or downplay Russian abuses are any different from, say, French leftists who do the same. Moreover, there is no attempt to actually address the Odessa Fire, the article just writes off anyone who thought it was horrific as some kind of Stalinist puppet. The left-right collaboration rhetoric also doesn't strike me as very convincing. That can be said for just about every dissident cause, from opposing the Iraq invasion to condemning finance capitalism. Also wasn't a fan of this line: Leftists mistrust mainstream outlets because the latter, according to their worldview, are controlled by oligarchs or their puppets. Far-rightists do so because, in their version of reality, the media are controlled by Zionist, cultural-Marxist, and homosexual lobbies. This is a false dichotomy, especially due to the author's uncritical use of the term Zionist. There are plenty of leftists who correctly condemn the extent to which Zionism control/influence media, there is no reason that that should be seen as dichotomous from believing that oligarchs or their puppets control the media. Writing off Zionist control of the media as a right-wing conspiracy theory on par with the homosexual agenda is subtle apologism for Zionism. Much of the article is simply beyond analysis because it is just unsubstantiated attack after the next. Anarchists, American leftists, Maoists, xyz group of people one after the next are accused of some political crime or the other without any real attempt to cite instances, groups, etc. The article attempts to paint the left in the US or in Europe (ignoring the rest of the world) as though there is any sort of consistency among leftists. Pretty sure there isn't any. - Amith On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 11:32 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * The annexation of Crimea, the “Novorossiya” project, and the fight against the “Kyiv junta” are not supported in Russia alone. There are political forces around the world, both marginal and relatively respectable, which voice their support for the separatists in the Donbass. At times, activists themselves travel to the war zone as volunteers, but they mostly hold demonstrations in support of the separatist republics and pressure their governments to renounce their support for Ukraine and “stop the aggression against Russia.” These political forces may identify as left-wing, right-wing, or deny any conventional political identity (although their “political neutrality” usually conceals one ideology or another). Novorossiya’s foreign friends who, in 99% of cases, are also friends of Russia and worshippers of Putin, may explain their views from various, sometimes incompatible positions. Novorossiya can be supported both by a white racist and a communist who talks about the fight against “Ukrainian fascism” and “Western imperialism.” But despite the apparent differences in their theoretical ideological grounding, their political practice is remarkably similar. Eventually, they arrive at the same conclusions and stand on the same side of the barricade. Not that long ago, an “antifascist forum” took place in the Donbass, which was attended by representatives of not major, but still quite notable Stalinist organizations from Europe and the United States. Around the same time, a forum of ultra-right, nationalist, and
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: ‘Novorossiya’s’ ‘Leftist’ Friends | The Interpreter
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * *Also, it's apparently published by the mouthpiece of a New York-based thinktank run by the family of one of Russia's oligarchs, namely Mikhail Khodorkovsky's son Pavel. - Amith On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 5:29 PM, A.R. G amithrgu...@gmail.com wrote: This article struck me as a mix of meaningful criticisms and pure smear tactics. This paragraph in particular is telling: Living in a special, completely parallel universe are leftists from the United States, who prefer to fight the evil empire directly from within. In their view, the war in the Donbass started at the instigation of the United States and, obviously, because of oil. After all, every global conflict is waged by the United States and always because of oil. And yes, the “Odessa carnage” was also planned by the United States, in case you had any doubts on that score. The United States and its leftists are not in a parellel universe. What happens in Europe -- and the way Americans react to it -- is every bit a part of American political culture as it is in Europe. That is the nature of America as an imperial power, let alone one which inherited much of Europe's history. There is no reason to suggest, in my view, that American leftists who romanticize or downplay Russian abuses are any different from, say, French leftists who do the same. Moreover, there is no attempt to actually address the Odessa Fire, the article just writes off anyone who thought it was horrific as some kind of Stalinist puppet. The left-right collaboration rhetoric also doesn't strike me as very convincing. That can be said for just about every dissident cause, from opposing the Iraq invasion to condemning finance capitalism. Also wasn't a fan of this line: Leftists mistrust mainstream outlets because the latter, according to their worldview, are controlled by oligarchs or their puppets. Far-rightists do so because, in their version of reality, the media are controlled by Zionist, cultural-Marxist, and homosexual lobbies. This is a false dichotomy, especially due to the author's uncritical use of the term Zionist. There are plenty of leftists who correctly condemn the extent to which Zionism control/influence media, there is no reason that that should be seen as dichotomous from believing that oligarchs or their puppets control the media. Writing off Zionist control of the media as a right-wing conspiracy theory on par with the homosexual agenda is subtle apologism for Zionism. Much of the article is simply beyond analysis because it is just unsubstantiated attack after the next. Anarchists, American leftists, Maoists, xyz group of people one after the next are accused of some political crime or the other without any real attempt to cite instances, groups, etc. The article attempts to paint the left in the US or in Europe (ignoring the rest of the world) as though there is any sort of consistency among leftists. Pretty sure there isn't any. - Amith On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 11:32 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * The annexation of Crimea, the “Novorossiya” project, and the fight against the “Kyiv junta” are not supported in Russia alone. There are political forces around the world, both marginal and relatively respectable, which voice their support for the separatists in the Donbass. At times, activists themselves travel to the war zone as volunteers, but they mostly hold demonstrations in support of the separatist republics and pressure their governments to renounce their support for Ukraine and “stop the aggression against Russia.” These political forces may identify as left-wing, right-wing, or deny any conventional political identity (although their “political neutrality” usually conceals one ideology or another). Novorossiya’s foreign friends who, in 99% of cases, are also friends of Russia and worshippers of Putin, may explain their views from various, sometimes incompatible positions. Novorossiya can be supported both by a white racist and a communist who talks about the fight against “Ukrainian fascism” and “Western imperialism.” But despite the apparent differences in their theoretical ideological grounding, their political practice is remarkably similar. Eventually, they arrive at the same conclusions and stand on the same side of
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: ‘Novorossiya’s’ ‘Leftist’ Friends | The Interpreter
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 01.06.2015 19:02, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote: On 6/1/15 12:39 PM, A.R. G wrote: Re: The Western Left I have seen leftists in the West take many different positions. It's true that a significant segment basically threw in with Putin, although my guess would be that a significant number did not even wade in. I wish that was so. But for the most part, the Western left views anybody who rallied in Maidan Square as either witting or unwitting tools of American imperialism. As far as I know, I am one of the few people in the USA who identifies politically with Chris Ford, a long-time activist for Ukraine (he is proficient in the language and has written for scholarly publications.) Chris is very involved with the Ukraine Solidarity Campaign based in England and I invite Marxmailers to bookmark its website: http://ukrainesolidaritycampaign.org/ One of the problems I have with the article is that it seriously distorts certain things about positions within DIE LINKE, where I know the people and the positions they've taken in reality. The article says, for example, that Andrej Hunko is regarded as an expert on the Ukraine simply because of his name. This isn't true, he's regarded as an expert because of years-long engagement with the politics of the country and personal acquaintance with many of the political actors. I must state an interest here - I've known Andrej for many years and I consider him a political ally on many issues, while disagreeing with him on his assessment of the Maidan. And as far as the notorious photo with the rebel leader in the Eastern Ukraine is concerned, as Andrej remarked in a personal conversation, if you are delivering medical supplies to a hospital in a war zone and a leader of one of the armed parties wants a photo you don't have much choice in the matter. Quite rightl,y Andrej points to the fact that the current regime is backed to the hilt by the US and the EU with the German government playing a leading role in this - and it's undeniable that there are many very unsavory political forces working in and with the Ukrainian government. Again I stress that I don't agree with Andrej's position on the Maidan but to describe him as being pro-Putin is a slander which has its origins in the propaganda of the German CDU/CSU/SPD grand coalition. Another leading figure in DIE LINKE who's slandered in the article is Sahra Wagenknecht. She is quoted to suggest that she was/is in favour of an alliance with the racist and xenophobic Pegida movement. While it is true that within the party there was some discussion about how to reach at least some of the people originally mobilised by Pegida, no member of the party in any official position, including Sahra Wagenknecht, has ever suggested holding talks with the leadership of this movement. Indeed from the very start DIE LINKE has played a central role in the mobilisations against Pegida in Dresden and similar movements elsewhere. So while the article may make some valid points about the anti-imps and RT, on the basis of the inaccuracies and distortions, whether deliberate or otherwise, about individuals and debates I'm personally acquainted with, I would tend to discount the article as an authoritative account of anything. Einde O'Callaghan _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: ‘Novorossiya’s’ ‘Leftist’ Friends | The Interpreter
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On Sahra Wagenknecht and talks with Pegida http://www.fr-online.de/pegida/sahra-wagenknecht--mit-pegida-reden-,29337826,29630636.html - this is the first link Google search Sahra Wagenknecht Pegida gives. Alexander Volodarskyi also spends much time in Germany, speaks German and is familiar with German left, though he knows Die Linke from the outside only and might not know the exact details of internal debates. The website http://vlada.io where the article appeared in Russian is run by Ukrainian liberal journalists. Its chief editor Denis Kazanskyi is from Donetsk. He became quite well-known in Ukraine for publishing materials about life of Donbas under Party of Regions which were highly critical of its rule. he then became active in Donetsk Maidan and had to flee to Kyiv when DPR seized the region. Recently, he invited Volodarskyi to publish liberal's guide to the left articles. This is important as the stereotype of all leftists being crazy stalinists is widespread among the liberals but liberals and leftists can be allies against the far right so giving the liberals a more nuanced view of the left is important. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: ‘Novorossiya’s’ ‘Leftist’ Friends | The Interpreter
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Well, Sahra Wagenknecht mentioned criticizing the federal government for wrong policy towards Russia in the same interview. Das sind keine Schnittmengen. Schon immer greifen Rechte Themen auf, die in der Bevölkerung populär sind. Und natürlich ist es richtig, die Bundesregierung für ihre falsche Russland-Politik zu kritisieren. Das tun Persönlichkeiten wie Helmut Schmidt oder Matthias Platzeck auch. So Volodarskyi's words Sara Wagenknecht of Die Linke has already publicly called for a dialogue with the ultra-right anti-immigration Pegida organization, appealing, first and foremost, given the proximity of their position on the Ukrainian and Russian question are not without foundation. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
