RE: [Mpls] Mpls Somali activist found guilty of immigration fraud
The lens for me is not on the lies and the moral, legal and ethical complications from the lies, but on how the lies are discovered, who discovers them, and how they are exploited. I think that was Jordan Kushner's original intent in raising this issue. Omar Jamal was prosecuted likely because he is Omar Jamal--a very public, sometimes brash, and extremely articulate advocate who is also a person of color. That draws attention, not only for support but also from the government, from detractors, and those who are threatened by his public status. As a result, he suffers greater scrutiny and faces complaints of all sorts from all sides. I don't know how the INS became aware of alleged discrepancies in Omar Jamal's file, but for me, that is the more interesting public question than his personal decision to lie. Who wanted action on this--not action on another less remarkable file--and how did they become aware of possible discrepancies? My point is this: if you are a dissenter or an advocate that raises the attention of the government and/or angers those who are in positions of authority or wealth, you will almost always face greater scrutiny for your actions, whether personal or public. More significantly, your 'file' will receive an inexplicable sense of importance, which you can attribute to officials' overt knowledge of your status as a dissenter but also an unconscious notion that you aren't like all the others, don't toe the party line, and actually make a lot of people angry (and add to that these days the 'celebrity' factor of a person who appears on TV, radio, and in the news, making it sexy to work on a file of someone who is in the news). Those who are in power or connected to those in authority and power will find their files more protected, their alleged actions surrounded by a denser layer of doubt, and will find that there is a larger level of uncooperative administrators who don't believe a good-natured guy like Joe would lie on a form, or see the real harm in doing so. Thus, if you've done wrong in some way somewhere, you may or may not be discovered. But, if you are a dissenter, that wrong will likely be exploited later and the snowball of inquiry will grow larger and larger as it rolls. We've certainly seen that nationally, and now we see it locally with Omar Jamal. I think Omar Jamal is similar to Martha Stewart in one way: the government is honest that it uses and legally prosecutes public figures as examples to make a point to all others: don't cheat, whether cheating involves taxes, insider trading, immigration status or whatnot. Omar Jamal differs from Martha Stewart, however, in that he had the added burden of being considered a dissenter. It doesn't forgive his crimes, but it does naturally place greater scrutiny on his actions, and thus a larger microscope on his public and private dealings, sometimes simply in an effort to 'bring him down' so that he is not such a brash, articulate, and politically threatening figure. Gregory Luce St. Paul -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barbara Lickness Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 7:11 PM To: Jennifer L. Rubenzer; Gregory Reinhardt; mpls@mnforum.org Subject: RE: [bcc][faked-from] [Mpls] Mpls Somali activist found guilty ofimmigration fraud Omar Jamal and his wife and children will be paying a VERY high price for the crimes he committed. It will deny them U.S. immigration and eventual citizenship. This situation will throw their immediate future into chaos for awhile. I think it is pretty obvious that gaining immigrant or citizen status in the United States is now and has always been very important to many people around the world. I think when you add to that scenario the fact that they come from a country that has been destroyed by tribal infighting, war and rebels the stakes are that much higher. If you don't gain immigration to the United States and are forced to go back to or remain in the war torn country you are trying to leave, it is unspeakably frightful. In some cases, it means you will be killed just for trying. Omar is not the first immigrant to meet this fate. I have met Omar Jamal a few times. He has done a lot of good work on behalf of his people and was instrumental in helping the Whittier neighborhood on the Elroy issue. I for one owe him a debt of gratitude for what he did for his people and for this neighborhood. I think it's very sad that he will pay such a high price for choices he made when the United States was in a much different place than it is now. I feel sorry that he and his family will be deported or worse that he will be incarcerated here. It's easy for us who sit in nice warm toasty houses in one of the wealthiest countries in the world to condemn Omar for what he did, but none of us are standing in his shoes. I also felt badly that Martha Stewart got thrown in jail. Sometimes good people do bad things. When that happens
Re: [Mpls] Mpls Somali activist found guilty of immigration fraud
I appreciate Greg Luce's expoundment on the issue of the underlying motivations behind Omar Jamal's prosecution. The underlying injustice is based on a combination of the government's motivation and the lack of significance of the alleged false statments. At to the government's motivation, it is clear that the government began its investigation of Jamal after he became an outspoken, visible and controversial figure in the media. Immigration authorities are lying when they deny any connection.Prior Stribune articles which contain these denials also revealed that immigration authorities responded to tips from people in the Somali community communicated after Jamal was in the media. (I cannot find the articles in archive; perhaps someone with more research access can find the earlier articles). It would be impossible for the government to investigate and prosecute all false statements on government documents, and is not even possible to investigate all leads. There are millions of cases relating to immigration documents and tax documents alone. The government singled out Jamal because he is a political activist, and that is what is chilling. The prosecution is chilling not just the government went after a controversial person, but bascially destroyed him for an act that did not cause any real harm. Although all lies are bad, clearly not all lies are equal. Here are three categories: 1) Despite some of the self-righteous rhetoric on some previous posts, some lies are even justified. Example: agents of an oppressive government go to a citizen's house to inquire about activities of a neighbor in opposing the government. The citizen knows that the neighbor is involved in such activities, but also knows that the neighbor will be imprisoned and tortured for the activities, so he lies and says he doesn't know anything. Does anyone want to argue that such a lie is wrong? An example closer to this situation is a person who lies to get into this country to escape persecution. It is not clear if Jamal fits this description. 2) Another category of lies, however, is a lie that does not harm anyone else. Jamal's alleged false statements would clearly fall into this category. OK, we don't want people to lie, particularly to the government, but in reality, do we really care so much as to make a federal criminal case if it does not make a difference for anyone else? The government can only prosecute a tiny percentage of cases where people lie. Should that tiny percentage be based on lies that are really harmful, or someone exercising a most valued constitutional right to be politically active and question the government. 3) the other general category of lies are those that really do cause harm, such as lying to get money that one is not entitled to, or a government official lying to pursue or cover up a hidden agenda, such as our current leaders blatantly lying to start and pursue a war. It is disturbing that people who so harshly judge Mr. Jamal, do not want to see or acknowledge any contradiction with the same government that vigorously prosecutes alleged lies by a political activist that cause no harm, is responsible for telling lies that cause deaths of at least tens of thousands of people. Jordan Kushner Golden Valley - Original Message - From: Gregory Luce [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mpls@mnforum.org Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 8:22 AM Subject: RE: [Mpls] Mpls Somali activist found guilty of immigration fraud The lens for me is not on the lies and the moral, legal and ethical complications from the lies, but on how the lies are discovered, who discovers them, and how they are exploited. I think that was Jordan Kushner's original intent in raising this issue. Omar Jamal was prosecuted likely because he is Omar Jamal--a very public, sometimes brash, and extremely articulate advocate who is also a person of color. That draws attention, not only for support but also from the government, from detractors, and those who are threatened by his public status. As a result, he suffers greater scrutiny and faces complaints of all sorts from all sides. I don't know how the INS became aware of alleged discrepancies in Omar Jamal's file, but for me, that is the more interesting public question than his personal decision to lie. Who wanted action on this--not action on another less remarkable file--and how did they become aware of possible discrepancies? My point is this: if you are a dissenter or an advocate that raises the attention of the government and/or angers those who are in positions of authority or wealth, you will almost always face greater scrutiny for your actions, whether personal or public. More significantly, your 'file' will receive an inexplicable sense of importance, which you can attribute to officials' overt knowledge of your status as a dissenter but also an unconscious notion that you aren't like
Re: [Mpls] Mpls Somali activist found guilty of immigration fraud
I find it fascinating that the government wants to work hard to deport Omar Jamal who, by all accounts, is an excellent citizen who contributes a lot to his community. At the same time, there is a move on the government's part to create ways for Mexican citizens to stay here who are here illegally and have children in school here. It makes me dizzy! There is a larger question that always lies beneath the surface of these kinds of issues: Do we punish someone for mistakes that happened years ago or do we recognize that the person has grown into a good citizen and contributor and forgive the error? This issue is especially interesting when someone is finally caught and arrested for a crime committed many, many years ago who has built a solid place in the community and contributes a lot. I guess it depends on whether we are more interested in punishment or rehabilitation. If punishment is our primary focus, then it doesn't matter how good the person is now or what they contribute to society. If rehabilitation is our aim, then it would seem that we should allow for the fact that a criminal has somehow rehabilitated him- or herself without the aid of our corrections system. Some would argue that if we forego the punishment, then other criminals may believe that they can avoid prison if they do the same thing. And that would be a terrible thing, wouldn't it? Criminals who pulled their lives together and became model citizens without society's investment of hundreds of thousands of dollars for prison expenses. In Mr. Jamal's case, do we as a community do better deporting him or keeping him here? Dottie Titus, Jordan neighborhood On Jan 9, 2005, at 12:33 AM, mike skoglund wrote: I am really confused about this. On 1/8/05 8:10 PM, Barbara Lickness [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Omar Jamal and his wife and children will be paying a VERY high price for the crimes he committed. It will deny them U.S. immigration and eventual citizenship. This situation will throw their immediate future into chaos for awhile. According to the Pioneer Press, his wife and children are U.S. Citizens, so they won't face deportation. http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/10594906.htm I think it is pretty obvious that gaining immigrant or citizen status in the United States is now and has always been very important to many people around the world. I think when you add to that scenario the fact that they come from a country that has been destroyed by tribal infighting, war and rebels the stakes are that much higher. If you don't gain immigration to the United States and are forced to go back to or remain in the war torn country you are trying to leave, it is unspeakably frightful. In some cases, it means you will be killed just for trying. Omar is not the first immigrant to meet this fate. See, this is what I don't get -- he had already been granted asylum by CANADA in 1991, so apparently he'd already been out of danger for seven years when he made these misstatements on his U.S. Immigration papers. If he'd already been granted asylum in a safe place, why would he lie? So he could attend college in Memphis? Or was something threatening his Canadian status? I'm having a hard time connecting the dots. [...] I think it's very sad that he will pay such a high price for choices he made when the United States was in a much different place than it is now. I feel sorry that he and his family will be deported or worse that he will be incarcerated here. It's easy for us who sit in nice warm toasty houses in one of the wealthiest countries in the world to condemn Omar for what he did, but none of us are standing in his shoes. [...] The Pioneer Press story indicates he isn't looking at jail time -- if he's deported, he would be sent to Canada. They have nice warm toasty houses there, too. Mike Skoglund // Financial District, New York // Bancroft, Minneapolis REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at:
Re: [Mpls] Mpls Somali activist found guilty of immigration fraud
Omar Jamal's case offers a stark comparison. Jamal is probably going to be deported or go to jail for not listing Canada as having offered him asylum. Yet Basim Sabri, (another immigrant and the person who Jamal worked the hardest to defend Somali people from) will not be deported for bribing Government officials and doing what in my opinion were acts of organized crime that should have been covered by the RICO laws. One spent his time in this country exploiting poor immigrants for their money and the political system for its weakness. The other spent his time attempting to serve, assist, and defend those same immigrants. Our country will probably keep the real criminal and exploiter and deport the defender. It just does not make sense to me. We do indeed need to overhaul our immigration laws and policies when lieing on a form is a more heinous crime than that of bribing government officials. I guess the problem is attempting to see some logic in such a contrast of actions. There just probably is none. Jim Graham, Ventura Village, Phillips Community, Sixth Ward of Metropolis With calm eyes gauge your fellow men; with a calm heart deal with all matters; with a calm mind find the reason in things. - Hong Yingming REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Mpls Somali activist found guilty of immigration fraud
ms == mike skoglund [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ms I am really confused about this. ms See, this is what I don't get -- he had already been granted ms asylum by CANADA in 1991, so apparently he'd already been out ms of danger for seven years when he made these misstatements on ms his U.S. Immigration papers. If he'd already been granted ms asylum in a safe place, why would he lie? So he could attend ms college in Memphis? Or was something threatening his Canadian ms status? I'm having a hard time connecting the dots. OK, the following is from Omar's lawyer, so take it with a grain of salt. He alleges that the form that is given out by the Immigration Service is VERY confusing and hard to fill out correctly. Having tried to fill out a 1040 once myself, I find this easy to believe. Even with the best of intentions, I was left with a queasy feeling that I might be answering wrong so I tossed in the towel, and paid someone else to do it for me, since I didn't want to be looking at jail time! There are certainly government forms that I find hard to understand and fill out, and I was born here! The lawyer also claimed that asylum is not a word that is used by the Canadian government: Erlinder pointed to terminology confusion: In 1991, when Jamal was 16, he was granted 'convention refugee' status in Canada, and the 1998 questions asked about `asylum,' which Canada doesn't grant. http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/5176421.html I don't claim to understand the issues well, myself, nor do I even know the details of the charges, so I may be talking through my hat. Best, R -- Robert P. Goldman ECCO [EMAIL PROTECTED] REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Mpls Somali activist found guilty of immigration fraud
If you don't want to go to prison for lying on an immigration form, don't lie on an immigration form. How tough is it? What I find interesting is that Mr. Jamal apparently has the intelligence to know when the cops are guilty of excessive force before an investigation is done (and knows how to get his face on TV any time he wants), but he can't seem to fill out an immigration form. Very interesting indeed. Mike Thompson Southwest Minneapolis - Original Message - From: Jordan S. Kushner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; mpls@mnforum.org Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 5:52 PM Subject: Re: [Mpls] Mpls Somali activist found guilty of immigration fraud I appreciate Greg Luce's expoundment on the issue of the underlying motivations behind Omar Jamal's prosecution. The underlying injustice is based on a combination of the government's motivation and the lack of significance of the alleged false statments. At to the government's motivation, it is clear that the government began its investigation of Jamal after he became an outspoken, visible and controversial figure in the media. Immigration authorities are lying when they deny any connection.Prior Stribune articles which contain these denials also revealed that immigration authorities responded to tips from people in the Somali community communicated after Jamal was in the media. (I cannot find the articles in archive; perhaps someone with more research access can find the earlier articles). It would be impossible for the government to investigate and prosecute all false statements on government documents, and is not even possible to investigate all leads. There are millions of cases relating to immigration documents and tax documents alone. The government singled out Jamal because he is a political activist, and that is what is chilling. The prosecution is chilling not just the government went after a controversial person, but bascially destroyed him for an act that did not cause any real harm. Although all lies are bad, clearly not all lies are equal. Here are three categories: 1) Despite some of the self-righteous rhetoric on some previous posts, some lies are even justified. Example: agents of an oppressive government go to a citizen's house to inquire about activities of a neighbor in opposing the government. The citizen knows that the neighbor is involved in such activities, but also knows that the neighbor will be imprisoned and tortured for the activities, so he lies and says he doesn't know anything. Does anyone want to argue that such a lie is wrong? An example closer to this situation is a person who lies to get into this country to escape persecution. It is not clear if Jamal fits this description. 2) Another category of lies, however, is a lie that does not harm anyone else. Jamal's alleged false statements would clearly fall into this category. OK, we don't want people to lie, particularly to the government, but in reality, do we really care so much as to make a federal criminal case if it does not make a difference for anyone else? The government can only prosecute a tiny percentage of cases where people lie. Should that tiny percentage be based on lies that are really harmful, or someone exercising a most valued constitutional right to be politically active and question the government. 3) the other general category of lies are those that really do cause harm, such as lying to get money that one is not entitled to, or a government official lying to pursue or cover up a hidden agenda, such as our current leaders blatantly lying to start and pursue a war. It is disturbing that people who so harshly judge Mr. Jamal, do not want to see or acknowledge any contradiction with the same government that vigorously prosecutes alleged lies by a political activist that cause no harm, is responsible for telling lies that cause deaths of at least tens of thousands of people. Jordan Kushner Golden Valley REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Mpls Somali activist found guilty of immigration fraud
Greg Reinhardt Excelsior wrote Should the lies of a good man be forgiven while the lies of a bad man are fully prosecuted? Does a person's good' intentions trump the fact that one has uttered a lie, let alone five? It appears that if you lie big enough you get to be re-elected President. Of course, it helps to have your buddies running most of the mainstream media and getting those who are supposed to be the ones in charge of state elections to come on board as your campaign manager giving them a vested interest in the outcome of the election. But then the answer to your question boils down to whether the President is a good man or a bad man and that depends on your level of income. Steven M Nelson Willard Hay http://citizenshipchronicles.blogspot.com/ Get UP! Get OUT! GET INVOLVED!!! REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Mpls Somali activist found guilty of immigration fraud
Jamal's conviction really is a very simple issue that is being obfuscated by a few of his supporters. While it is true that politicians lie and the media lies and police lie and we all lie, all to some extent, we can only be responsible for our own behavior. Lying on an immigration form or to an immigration agent is against the law. You're not supposed to do it. It doesn't matter how scared one is or how oppressive the homeland is or how much fear one lives in trying to immigrate to this nation. You just don't do it. Jamal did it. That's a federal offense. Someone as bright as him knew it, and may have several years of federal custody (hopefully) to think about it. People like Mr. Jamal don't get some sort of free pass because they may do good in the community. If that were the standard, all we'd need is a panel that weighs a person's good versus their bad, and offer free passes for lying on immigration forms because such transgressions are outweighed by activism. Sorry, but it don't work that way. The individuals on this board are suggesting that his case be handled exactly that way. That's a scary notion. If you don't want to go to federal prison for lying on immigration forms, don't lie on immigration forms. It ain't that tough. Mike Thompson Soutwest Minneapolis - Original Message - From: Steve Nelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Gregory Reinhardt [EMAIL PROTECTED]; mpls@mnforum.org Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 9:05 AM Subject: Re: [Mpls] Mpls Somali activist found guilty of immigration fraud Greg Reinhardt Excelsior wrote Should the lies of a good man be forgiven while the lies of a bad man are fully prosecuted? Does a person's good' intentions trump the fact that one has uttered a lie, let alone five? It appears that if you lie big enough you get to be re-elected President. Of course, it helps to have your buddies running most of the mainstream media and getting those who are supposed to be the ones in charge of state elections to come on board as your campaign manager giving them a vested interest in the outcome of the election. But then the answer to your question boils down to whether the President is a good man or a bad man and that depends on your level of income. Steven M Nelson Willard Hay http://citizenshipchronicles.blogspot.com/ Get UP! Get OUT! GET INVOLVED!!! REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Mpls Somali activist found guilty of immigration fraud
Gregory Reinhardt asks... ...Should the lies of a good man be forgiven while the lies of a bad man are fully prosecuted? Does a person's good' intentions trump the fact that one has uttered a lie, let alone five? Does Minneapolis need more leaders who have the courage to lie than those who steadfastly tell the truth and suffer the consequences? Intentions are always tough to interpret, but given our legal process, I feel confident justice will prevail in this particular case. And, in the end, I'd guess Omar Jamal will also find a new degree of respect for the system he abused. As to the type of leaders we need in Mpls., I hope all would agree that we are always in need of strong leaders with the vision and courage to be truthful in all matters. In the end, all any of us really have is our integrity or lack thereof. Mike Hohmann Linden Hills -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Gregory Reinhardt Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 3:18 PM To: mpls@mnforum.org Subject: [Mpls] Mpls Somali activist found guilty of immigration fraud Equating the adjudication of a liar to the onslaught of the Holocaust is a bit over dramatic. Omar Jamal has yet to sentence; there is still an opportunity for justice to fit the crime and the individual. Fear mongering, aside, Jamal's conviction poses an interesting corundum. Should the lies of a good man be forgiven while the lies of a bad man are fully prosecuted? Does a person's good' intentions trump the fact that one has uttered a lie, let alone five? Does Minneapolis need more leaders who have the courage to lie than those who steadfastly tell the truth and suffer the consequences? Greg Reinhardt Excelsior snip REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Mpls Somali activist found guilty of immigration fraud
I found it interesting this subject on lying to immigration. How many people who feel that it was wrong have asks their forebears who came to this country whether or not they lied to get it. I found out that my father had lied when he entered this country back in the 20's. Why? Because he lied about his age so he can get Social Security benefits early. Did your immigrant forebears also lie so they could get into this great country and receive its benefits. All this on my father, came out when he died earlier and my mom needed to collect Social Security. So before we pass judgement on other immigrants we need to be sure that our immigrant forebears told the whole truth and nothing but the truth. eli kaplan Linden Hills REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Mpls Somali activist found guilty of immigration fraud
Great point, Eli. We're pretty sure that most of my ancestors came from Ireland; my and my family's physical characteristics would make it hard to argue otherwise. But it is hard to trace exact roots because, as my Dad explained to me, not all of our ancestors wanted to be traced, and some of them for good reason. And that good reason might, in various instances, depend on a particular point of view regarding issues of religion, inheritance, paternity, politics, and the law. What was the harm caused by Jamal's alleged statements? I've missed that in all of the reporting. Dan McGuire Ericsson Eli wrote: I found it interesting this subject on lying to immigration. How many people who feel that it was wrong have asks their forebears who came to this country whether or not they lied to get it. I found out that my father had lied when he entered this country back in the 20's. Why? Because he lied about his age so he can get Social Security benefits early. Did your immigrant forebears also lie so they could get into this great country and receive its benefits. All this on my father, came out when he died earlier and my mom needed to collect Social Security. So before we pass judgement on other immigrants we need to be sure that our immigrant forebears told the whole truth and nothing but the truth. eli kaplan Linden Hills REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] Mpls Somali activist found guilty of immigration fraud
Eli Kaplan wrote: I found it interesting this subject on lying to immigration. How many people who feel that it was wrong have asks their forebears who came to this country whether or not they lied to get it. I found out that my father had lied when he entered this country back in the 20's. Why? Because he lied about his age so he can get Social Security benefits early. Did your immigrant forebears also lie so they could get into this great country and receive its benefits. All this on my father, came out when he died earlier and my mom needed to collect Social Security. So before we pass judgement on other immigrants we need to be sure that our immigrant forebears told the whole truth and nothing but the truth. This is a really interesting ethical dilemma. How many of us would have objected to Jews lying on their immigration forms to gain entry into the U.S. in the 1930s? Not many Americans objected to limiting the numbers of Jews who were admitted and ultimately died because they were unable to immigrate. Then again, Mr. Jamal is guilty of much the same crime as Joe Biernat. When is lying justified? When is lying to your government justified? I think that our society needs to place much more emphasis on honor and responsibility. Then I conclude that it is honorable for Mr. Jamal to accept responsibility for the consequences of his actions and honorable for our government to forgive his actions if its own position is unjust. Can both of these constraints be met? I think so. Michael Atherton Prospect Park REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [bcc][faked-from] [Mpls] Mpls Somali activist found guilty of immigration fraud
There is no courage in lying! And I can't believe you would assert that there is! A lie is a cowards way of avoiding conflict and confrontation when they know they can't get the better of the situation. It's not the sign of a good man - it's the sign of a 'weak' man. Jennifer Rubenzer Plymouth From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Gregory Reinhardt Sent: Fri 1/7/2005 3:17 PM To: mpls@mnforum.org Subject: [bcc][faked-from] [Mpls] Mpls Somali activist found guilty of immigration fraud Equating the adjudication of a liar to the onslaught of the Holocaust is a bit over dramatic. Omar Jamal has yet to sentence; there is still an opportunity for justice to fit the crime and the individual. Fear mongering, aside, Jamal's conviction poses an interesting corundum. Should the lies of a good man be forgiven while the lies of a bad man are fully prosecuted? Does a person's good' intentions trump the fact that one has uttered a lie, let alone five? Does Minneapolis need more leaders who have the courage to lie than those who steadfastly tell the truth and suffer the consequences? Greg Reinhardt Excelsior REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [bcc][faked-from] [Mpls] Mpls Somali activist found guilty of immigration fraud
Omar Jamal and his wife and children will be paying a VERY high price for the crimes he committed. It will deny them U.S. immigration and eventual citizenship. This situation will throw their immediate future into chaos for awhile. I think it is pretty obvious that gaining immigrant or citizen status in the United States is now and has always been very important to many people around the world. I think when you add to that scenario the fact that they come from a country that has been destroyed by tribal infighting, war and rebels the stakes are that much higher. If you don't gain immigration to the United States and are forced to go back to or remain in the war torn country you are trying to leave, it is unspeakably frightful. In some cases, it means you will be killed just for trying. Omar is not the first immigrant to meet this fate. I have met Omar Jamal a few times. He has done a lot of good work on behalf of his people and was instrumental in helping the Whittier neighborhood on the Elroy issue. I for one owe him a debt of gratitude for what he did for his people and for this neighborhood. I think it's very sad that he will pay such a high price for choices he made when the United States was in a much different place than it is now. I feel sorry that he and his family will be deported or worse that he will be incarcerated here. It's easy for us who sit in nice warm toasty houses in one of the wealthiest countries in the world to condemn Omar for what he did, but none of us are standing in his shoes. I also felt badly that Martha Stewart got thrown in jail. Sometimes good people do bad things. When that happens they pay the price. I just hope the judge is merciful and that the sentence truly fits the crime. Barb Lickness Whittier = Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. -- Margaret Mead REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Mpls Somali activist found guilty of immigration fraud
I am really confused about this. On 1/8/05 8:10 PM, Barbara Lickness [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Omar Jamal and his wife and children will be paying a VERY high price for the crimes he committed. It will deny them U.S. immigration and eventual citizenship. This situation will throw their immediate future into chaos for awhile. According to the Pioneer Press, his wife and children are U.S. Citizens, so they won't face deportation. http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/10594906.htm I think it is pretty obvious that gaining immigrant or citizen status in the United States is now and has always been very important to many people around the world. I think when you add to that scenario the fact that they come from a country that has been destroyed by tribal infighting, war and rebels the stakes are that much higher. If you don't gain immigration to the United States and are forced to go back to or remain in the war torn country you are trying to leave, it is unspeakably frightful. In some cases, it means you will be killed just for trying. Omar is not the first immigrant to meet this fate. See, this is what I don't get -- he had already been granted asylum by CANADA in 1991, so apparently he'd already been out of danger for seven years when he made these misstatements on his U.S. Immigration papers. If he'd already been granted asylum in a safe place, why would he lie? So he could attend college in Memphis? Or was something threatening his Canadian status? I'm having a hard time connecting the dots. [...] I think it's very sad that he will pay such a high price for choices he made when the United States was in a much different place than it is now. I feel sorry that he and his family will be deported or worse that he will be incarcerated here. It's easy for us who sit in nice warm toasty houses in one of the wealthiest countries in the world to condemn Omar for what he did, but none of us are standing in his shoes. [...] The Pioneer Press story indicates he isn't looking at jail time -- if he's deported, he would be sent to Canada. They have nice warm toasty houses there, too. Mike Skoglund // Financial District, New York // Bancroft, Minneapolis REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Mpls Somali activist found guilty of immigration fraud
Guilty on five counts... http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/10590726.htm David Brauer List manager REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Mpls Somali activist found guilty of immigration fraud
I am not surprised in the slightest that Memphis justice took less than a week to put a black immigrant activist away for a quarter century. This is a wake up call for every political activist to the left of the the current president's attorney general appointees who has ever filled out an income tax form, an application for federal student financial aid, an application for federal employment, served in the military, ad infinitim... Maybe you were a gay man who decades ago said no when the military asked if you had ever had a homosexual relationship. Or you didn't state some piddly bit of income on a federal tax form because not being a tax lawyer you didn't know it was income. Or maybe you enlisted at age 14 because there were no jobs in rural South Dakota on the eve of World War II, and the recruiter went along with that little lie, and you were really 12 because you're birth certificate was never recorded... And because you were active in supporting Democrats or maybe just because you're drawing a federal employee pension and the Republican's can't balance their budget the Federal Agents may soon be knocking on your door, even if it's in a nursing home. History tells us that the halocaust happened in small stages like this... first they came for the immigrant activists, but I was not an immigrant activist. Let us Minneapolitans quit worrying about leaf blowers and insure that the sad history of the halocaust is not repeated here. hanging on in Hawthorne, Dyna Sluyter REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Mpls Somali activist found guilty of immigration fraud
Equating the adjudication of a liar to the onslaught of the Holocaust is a bit over dramatic. Omar Jamal has yet to sentence; there is still an opportunity for justice to fit the crime and the individual. Fear mongering, aside, Jamal's conviction poses an interesting corundum. Should the lies of a good man be forgiven while the lies of a bad man are fully prosecuted? Does a person's good' intentions trump the fact that one has uttered a lie, let alone five? Does Minneapolis need more leaders who have the courage to lie than those who steadfastly tell the truth and suffer the consequences? Greg Reinhardt Excelsior REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Mpls Somali activist found guilty of immigration fraud
The email you are reacting to had more to do with the selection or certain people for prosecution based on level of activism, sexual preference, etc. I think it is safe to say that we all fall short of the glory of God and lie. Few of us are selected for prosecution. We simply are not vocal or threatening enough to the established order keepers and do not represent a targeted or mistreated minority. Jim REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Mpls Somali activist found guilty of immigration fraud
The standard of expecting and demanding honesty at all times, has been advocated a couple of times on this list in response to the legal persecution of a Somali refuge. I would not want to argue against such a standard since I believe it is desirable and, if universally followed, would have a profoundly positive impact on society. In real life, particularly applied to this situation, the demand that one tell the truth no matter what seems to have some problems. First, it is probably safe to assume that nobody making the value judgments about truthfulness has ever faced a situation where the consequences of telling the truth could be as grave as for most refugees, such as risking death or other physical danger, or being thrown out of this country without any safe place to go. (This is not suggesting that Omar Jamal actually did lied as charged). I don't believe any of us have full information about the stakes involved, but it is obviously easy to make judgments without full information, but far less appropriate to make judgments when have no personal experience that compares to the persecution faced by another. Assuming that those who have advocated complete truthfulness under any circumstances follow that standard, can they really commit to this standard if their life was in danger or they risked deportation from this country? It is one thing to demand honesty from politicians when performing their duties, which is often done appropriately on this list, but it is quite another when trying to dictate what someone in an extremely oppressed situation must do to survive. The contrast with demanding truthfulness from politicalfigures leads to the glaring political hypocisy of this case. Mr. Jamal has been prosectuted for allegedly lying on an immigration form by a government whose leaders have lied to fool the country into accepting war, lied to cover up torture, illegal detentions, and other crimes against humanity. Where is the moral authority to judge and punish a refugee for allegedly making untrue statements of very limited consequence just so that he can live in this country? For those of us who want to encourage complete honesty, the honest way to begin is at the top. Jordan S. Kushner works downtown GOlden Valley - Original Message - From: Gregory Reinhardt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mpls@mnforum.org Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 3:17 PM Subject: [Mpls] Mpls Somali activist found guilty of immigration fraud Equating the adjudication of a liar to the onslaught of the Holocaust is a bit over dramatic. Omar Jamal has yet to sentence; there is still an opportunity for justice to fit the crime and the individual. Fear mongering, aside, Jamal's conviction poses an interesting corundum. Should the lies of a good man be forgiven while the lies of a bad man are fully prosecuted? Does a person's good' intentions trump the fact that one has uttered a lie, let alone five? Does Minneapolis need more leaders who have the courage to lie than those who steadfastly tell the truth and suffer the consequences? Greg Reinhardt Excelsior REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] Mpls Somali activist found guilty of immigration fraud
Yes, we all have told lies of various degrees, but that doesn't make it okay to lie to the Immigration Service (guilty of 5 counts of making false statements). Who gets to decide what laws we can ignore and when? http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/5174375.html Tom Searles Waconia, Twp. [snip] I think it is safe to say that we all fall short of the glory of God and lie. Few of us are selected for prosecution. We simply are not vocal or threatening enough to the established order keepers and do not represent a targeted or mistreated minority. Jim REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Mpls Somali activist found guilty of immigration fraud
Situational truthfulness? I'm just a simple civil servant; but if I lie I could and should lose my job. When it comes to values, where is the line in the sand drawn? Or does it shift with this or that advocacy or political inclination? To generalize the misdeeds of others, shroud the jury with a cloak of blame, and imply that justice has tainted because of the inherent original sin of a government is an over simplification. What evidence exists that the jury, judge or prosecutor acted improper? One may not results of the trial but to decry the whole judicial system (because someone or everyone else is an evil doer) is throwing the baby out with the bath water. Greg Reinhardt Excelsior REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] Mpls] Mpls Somali activist found guilty of immigration fraud
- Original Message - From: Gregory Reinhardt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mpls@mnforum.org Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 5:24 PM Subject: [Mpls] Mpls Somali activist found guilty of immigration fraud Situational truthfulness? I'm just a simple civil servant; but if I lie I could and should lose my job. JSK - you are right. however, you have colleagues (ie Minneapolis police officers) who often lie and do not lose their jobs, much less face criminal prosecution. (See book by Mike Quinn). The reason comes down to power. The criminal laws are generally used against the least powerful. When it comes to values, where is the line in the sand drawn? Or does it shift with this or that advocacy or political inclination? JSK - You hvae asked an abstract question and rhetorical question. An underlying point of my previous post was that values are already enforced through the criminal justice system based on political considerations. It is not a question of suggesting that values should be upheld based on political inclination, but a reality that this is what is happending. Those in power are already usually immune from enforcement of values whereas those whom the government seeks to suppress or oppress are quickly subject to enforcement of law, generally in order to keep the power relationships the same. When considering when values should be upheld, is it not more reasonable based the decision on which violations do more damage? The violation of values and laws by those in power might have a far more devastating effect. This was the purpose for contrasting between Omar Jamal who allegedly made false statements to stay in the U.S. vs. George Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, Alberto Gonzalez and company whose lies and promotion of other crimes cause the deaths of thousands of people. Why go after a person who steals a loaf of bread to feed his family when someone else is stealing billions? To generalize the misdeeds of others, shroud the jury with a cloak of blame, and imply that justice has tainted because of the inherent original sin of a government is an over simplification. I don't know where you read anyone shrouding the jury with a cloak of blame. there was no mention of the jury. However, why is it an oversimplification to suggest that justice is tainted by the unjust actions of the government responsible for enforcing justice? The oversimplification is to ignore this. What evidence exists that the jury, judge or prosecutor acted improper? there was no suggestion. It is not the individuals but the system. There could be an impropriety on some level with those responsible for enforcing the law refusing to acknowledge the actual role that they are performing in furtherance of more powerful interest. One may not results of the trial but to decry the whole judicial system (because someone or everyone else is an evil doer) is throwing the baby out with the bath water. There was not any decrying of the whole judicial system because someone else is an evil doer This is a complete distortion of my previous post. Jordan S. Kushner Golden Valley REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:mpls@mnforum.org Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
