Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[Michal Vlasák via ntg-context]

On Wed Aug 24, 2022 at 11:32 PM CEST, Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 8/24/2022 10:21 PM, Michal Vlasák via ntg-context wrote:
>
> > Or rather no solution would be needed at all, since the "mtxrun" and
> > "context" wrapper commands and "texmfcnf.lua" files will be probably
> > specific for each packaging target (different directories on different
> > distros, and Unix vs Windows), and thus the matter of packagers. And
> > copying a binary and a directory with runtime files is the usual task of
> > an install step of "package descriptions", so maybe even a Makefile like
> > I had wouldn't be needed.
>
> just a note: the mtxrun[.exe] and context[.exe] commands are not really 
> wrappers but symlinks to the binary luametatex[.exe]  (i didn't test if 
> mtxrun.lua and context.lua can be symlinks but that are to be in the 
> same path in order to be seen)

Yes, sorry I should have been clearer. What is necessary for luametatex
to run a Lua script is to run it with another name (argv[0]). This can
be done with symlinks, or with `exec -a mtxrun luametatex`. And even
mtxrun.lua and context.lua can be symlinks, it works, I used it.

> one can actually use the default texmf.cnf if one sets TEXMF or one of 
> its companions .. they default to be autoparent which is natural for tds

Thanks, indeed the config file sets the paths nicely, so it isn't
necessary to have another file if one sets TEXMF, very nice!

One addition I had was the use of $TEXMFDOTDIR instead of "." as the
first path in most variables, e.g.:

TEXINPUTS = "$TEXMFDOTDIR;$TEXMF/tex/{context,plain/base,generic}//",

instead of

TEXINPUTS = ".;$TEXMF/tex/{context,plain/base,generic}//",

I quite like it for adding directories with my macros / bib files etc.
that are not structured as TDS tree, but rather are "flat".

It's originally from TeX Live:


https://github.com/TeX-Live/texlive-source/commit/f1dfa7b7670fa28451c386fb08e2b32d293741ab

It lists ".//" as another possible use. Could you also add it?

I updated the repo:

https://github.com/vlasakm/context

Now also `context` is an executable (two more symlinks, so now 4
symlinks and one binary in total). There is no longer a configuration
file by me (the fallback contextcnf.lua gets used or user provides one),
the drawback being that I set some variables in the environment and the
user now can't override them from config file only from environment,
AFAIK. Also

 mtxrun --variables

doesn't work now (maybe other things) though I won't investigate further
for now.

Anyway, thanks for the clarifications and suggestions!

Michal
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Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 8/24/2022 10:21 PM, Michal Vlasák via ntg-context wrote:


Or rather no solution would be needed at all, since the "mtxrun" and
"context" wrapper commands and "texmfcnf.lua" files will be probably
specific for each packaging target (different directories on different
distros, and Unix vs Windows), and thus the matter of packagers. And
copying a binary and a directory with runtime files is the usual task of
an install step of "package descriptions", so maybe even a Makefile like
I had wouldn't be needed.


just a note: the mtxrun[.exe] and context[.exe] commands are not really 
wrappers but symlinks to the binary luametatex[.exe]  (i didn't test if 
mtxrun.lua and context.lua can be symlinks but that are to be in the 
same path in order to be seen)


one can actually use the default texmf.cnf if one sets TEXMF or one of 
its companions .. they default to be autoparent which is natural for tds


Hans

-
  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[Michal Vlasák via ntg-context]

On Tue Aug 23, 2022 at 3:11 AM CEST, Max Chernoff wrote:
> > On Sunday, August 21st, 2022 at 7:13 PM, Michal Vlasák  > gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > There is documentation about how it can be used. I hope its obvious how
> > > I got "texmf" (texmf-context.zip, unzip, delete some files I didn't want
> > > to take up space), 
>
> One suggestion: instead of unpacking and committing "texmf-context.zip",
> I'd recommend adding 
>
>https://github.com/contextgarden/context-mirror/
>
> as a git submodule. That way, it's easy to keep the files up-to-date, your
> repo will use less space, and there's a clearer separation between your
> package files and ConTeXt itself.

Yes, you are right that would be much better.

Unfortunately it seems that git submodules are not included in archives
created by `git archive` (which is also what Github uses for the
automatic release zip / tars that I have linked above). As I wanted the
published tarballs / zips self-contained ("offline only"), I would need
to use some script to generate custom archives that I would upload to
Github as release assets. This would require special care both from me
and the hypothetical packagers who would have to use the less
discoverable asset instead of the standard "git(hub) archive" way.

Anyway I think that a much better solution can be made once luametatex
source code becomes available - then there wouldn't be a reason to
resort to commiting binaries into version control and/or unnecessarily
restrict to Linux only.

Or rather no solution would be needed at all, since the "mtxrun" and
"context" wrapper commands and "texmfcnf.lua" files will be probably
specific for each packaging target (different directories on different
distros, and Unix vs Windows), and thus the matter of packagers. And
copying a binary and a directory with runtime files is the usual task of
an install step of "package descriptions", so maybe even a Makefile like
I had wouldn't be needed.

> > > A bit of a disclaimer: I don't really recommend pursuing this further.
> > > Some time ago I was also that foolish to try to package TeX for Linux
> > > distributions. Unfortunately I think that the result will never by
> > > optimal - as demonstrated by the previous discussions, the usual
> > > purposes of packages (to integrate software into the system) don't apply
> > > much to TeX / ConTeXt - there one wants something more or less self
> > > contained (so that updates are under control, no random non-essential
> > > libraries brake things, etc.).
>
> Well packaging the files into .rpm/.deb isn't really a bad idea; what's
> bad is the weird modifications that distros make, plus the fact that
> nearly every distro delays updates by quite some time. I generally agree
> that installing TeX straight from the source is better, although I can
> see why some users prefer to install from their distro repos.

One benefit of the fact that ConTeXt LMTX is not packaged anywhere came
to my mind: when someone has a problem with ConTeXt there is a very high
chance that it isn't because they are using a very old version. In
contrast to MkIV where one can imagine up to 4 year old installs (say up
to 1 year delay in TeX Live and 3 years in the distro for the "stable"
ones).

Michal
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Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[amano.kenji via ntg-context]

That's great, bro.

--- Original Message ---
On Tuesday, August 23rd, 2022 at 7:13 PM, Aditya Mahajan via ntg-context 
 wrote:


> On Mon, 22 Aug 2022, amano.kenji via ntg-context wrote:
> 
> > Wuh. That's a bit complex.
> 
> 
> If you are packaging any flavor of TeX, you need to understand TDS (TeX 
> Directory Structure):
> 
> https://tug.org/tds/
> 
> ConTeXt distributions are TDS compatible, but simplify certain aspects. 
> Essentially, context LMTX is distributed as a collection of TDS trees (texmf, 
> texmf-context, texmf-linux, etc.) which separate the files according to their 
> role. The purpose of texmfcnf.lua is to tell the binary about the location of 
> the different trees.
> 
> Aditya
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Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[Aditya Mahajan via ntg-context]

On Mon, 22 Aug 2022, amano.kenji via ntg-context wrote:

> Wuh. That's a bit complex.

If you are packaging any flavor of TeX, you need to understand TDS (TeX 
Directory Structure): 

https://tug.org/tds/

ConTeXt distributions are TDS compatible, but simplify certain aspects. 
Essentially, context LMTX is distributed as a collection of TDS trees (texmf, 
texmf-context, texmf-linux, etc.) which separate the files according to their 
role. The purpose of texmfcnf.lua is to tell the binary about the location of 
the different trees. 

Aditya
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Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[amano.kenji via ntg-context]

> https://tug.org/TUGboat/tb34-3/tb108preining-distro.pdf

Somebody needed to update TeX Live on Gentoo Linux. I'm going to read it.

> From a developer perspective, this is essentially just the base ConTeXt 
> files, a modified texmfcnf.lua, and a fairly basic makefile.

I'm going to read https://github.com/vlasakm/context soon. Until then, I would 
feel confused and disoriented.

--- Original Message ---
On Tuesday, August 23rd, 2022 at 1:11 AM, Max Chernoff  wrote:


> Hi Amano,
> 
> > Wuh. That's a bit complex.
> 
> 
> Not really. From a user perspective, all that you need to run is
> 
> make install
> 
> From a developer perspective, this is essentially just the base ConTeXt
> files, a modified texmfcnf.lua, and a fairly basic makefile.
> 
> > For distribution packages that depend on context for generation of PDF
> > documents, having context as a system package is essential.
> 
> 
> I'd say that ConTeXt is available in nearly every package manager, via
> TeX Live. Very very few package managers would have no TeX Live. TeX
> Live only includes MkIV, the "stable" version, but most users won't
> notice many differences from MkXL/LMTX, the "experimental" version.
> 
> By policy, TeX Live only updates its binaries once per year. This would
> be pretty much unworkable with LuaMetaTeX due to its frequent upgrades.
> At some point when LuaMetaTeX is stable, the source will be released and
> almost certainly be incorporated in TeX Live.
> 
> > And, distribution maintainers can make things work if they understand
> > TeX directory structure and texmfcnf.lua.
> 
> 
> Packaging/installing ConTeXt is actually much easier than doing so for
> other TeX systems. With other systems, you need to fiddle around with
> fonts and packages, but with ConTeXt, you can pretty much just unpack a
> few files.
> 
> Here's a short paper that should give you an overview of how hard
> packaging TeX can be:
> 
> https://tug.org/TUGboat/tb34-3/tb108preining-distro.pdf
> 
> > It comes down to care. If they care and they have installation guide,
> > they will make it work.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure who you're talking about here. If you're talking about end-
> users, then yes, it's pretty simple to install ConTeXt. I personally
> find ConTeXt much easier to install than TeX Live.
> 
> If you're talking about packagers, then packaging ConTeXt is no more
> complex than packaging TeX Live (which of course includes ConTeXt MkIV).
> The installer documentation for ConTeXt LMTX certainly isn't as detailed
> as it is for TeX Live, but LMTX is still beta software.
> 
> If you're trying to say that the ConTeXt developers don't care, then you
> may be "right" in a sense, but missing the point entirely. There is no
> one who is paid to work on ConTeXt: all of the developers work on it
> either as volunteers or to support their own business needs. The current
> installer works for them and for many other users. This isn't to say
> that they don't care about the users, but rather that they are unlikely
> to spend much time making a package for a fairly unpopular distro where
> the official installer already works.
> 
> > On Sunday, August 21st, 2022 at 7:13 PM, Michal Vlasák  > gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Michal,
> 
> > > I prepared a proof of concept, that I am ready to take down immediately
> > > at Hans' request, since I don't handle license information properly, and
> > > texmf-context is stripped down (just so that the downloads are not too
> > > big for proof of concept).
> > > 
> > > https://github.com/vlasakm/context
> 
> 
> That's quite impressive!
> 
> > > There is documentation about how it can be used. I hope its obvious how
> > > I got "texmf" (texmf-context.zip, unzip, delete some files I didn't want
> > > to take up space),
> 
> 
> One suggestion: instead of unpacking and committing "texmf-context.zip",
> I'd recommend adding
> 
> https://github.com/contextgarden/context-mirror/
> 
> as a git submodule. That way, it's easy to keep the files up-to-date, your
> repo will use less space, and there's a clearer separation between your
> package files and ConTeXt itself.
> 
> > > A bit of a disclaimer: I don't really recommend pursuing this further.
> > > Some time ago I was also that foolish to try to package TeX for Linux
> > > distributions. Unfortunately I think that the result will never by
> > > optimal - as demonstrated by the previous discussions, the usual
> > > purposes of packages (to integrate software into the system) don't apply
> > > much to TeX / ConTeXt - there one wants something more or less self
> > > contained (so that updates are under control, no random non-essential
> > > libraries brake things, etc.).
> 
> 
> Well packaging the files into .rpm/.deb isn't really a bad idea; what's
> bad is the weird modifications that distros make, plus the fact that
> nearly every distro delays updates by quite some time. I generally agree
> that installing TeX straight from the source is better, although I can
> see why some 

Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[amano.kenji via ntg-context]

> they are unlikely to spend much time making a package for a fairly unpopular 
> distro where the official installer already works.

If someone adds something like installation.md to the root directory of ConTeXt 
source archive or git commit, anyone can read it and translate it into one's OS 
package. installation.md would be one generalized set of instructions that 
apply to windows, Mac, linux distributions, BSDs, and all other operating 
systems.

--- Original Message ---
On Tuesday, August 23rd, 2022 at 1:11 AM, Max Chernoff  wrote:


> Hi Amano,
> 
> > Wuh. That's a bit complex.
> 
> 
> Not really. From a user perspective, all that you need to run is
> 
> make install
> 
> From a developer perspective, this is essentially just the base ConTeXt
> files, a modified texmfcnf.lua, and a fairly basic makefile.
> 
> > For distribution packages that depend on context for generation of PDF
> > documents, having context as a system package is essential.
> 
> 
> I'd say that ConTeXt is available in nearly every package manager, via
> TeX Live. Very very few package managers would have no TeX Live. TeX
> Live only includes MkIV, the "stable" version, but most users won't
> notice many differences from MkXL/LMTX, the "experimental" version.
> 
> By policy, TeX Live only updates its binaries once per year. This would
> be pretty much unworkable with LuaMetaTeX due to its frequent upgrades.
> At some point when LuaMetaTeX is stable, the source will be released and
> almost certainly be incorporated in TeX Live.
> 
> > And, distribution maintainers can make things work if they understand
> > TeX directory structure and texmfcnf.lua.
> 
> 
> Packaging/installing ConTeXt is actually much easier than doing so for
> other TeX systems. With other systems, you need to fiddle around with
> fonts and packages, but with ConTeXt, you can pretty much just unpack a
> few files.
> 
> Here's a short paper that should give you an overview of how hard
> packaging TeX can be:
> 
> https://tug.org/TUGboat/tb34-3/tb108preining-distro.pdf
> 
> > It comes down to care. If they care and they have installation guide,
> > they will make it work.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure who you're talking about here. If you're talking about end-
> users, then yes, it's pretty simple to install ConTeXt. I personally
> find ConTeXt much easier to install than TeX Live.
> 
> If you're talking about packagers, then packaging ConTeXt is no more
> complex than packaging TeX Live (which of course includes ConTeXt MkIV).
> The installer documentation for ConTeXt LMTX certainly isn't as detailed
> as it is for TeX Live, but LMTX is still beta software.
> 
> If you're trying to say that the ConTeXt developers don't care, then you
> may be "right" in a sense, but missing the point entirely. There is no
> one who is paid to work on ConTeXt: all of the developers work on it
> either as volunteers or to support their own business needs. The current
> installer works for them and for many other users. This isn't to say
> that they don't care about the users, but rather that they are unlikely
> to spend much time making a package for a fairly unpopular distro where
> the official installer already works.
> 
> > On Sunday, August 21st, 2022 at 7:13 PM, Michal Vlasák  > gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Michal,
> 
> > > I prepared a proof of concept, that I am ready to take down immediately
> > > at Hans' request, since I don't handle license information properly, and
> > > texmf-context is stripped down (just so that the downloads are not too
> > > big for proof of concept).
> > > 
> > > https://github.com/vlasakm/context
> 
> 
> That's quite impressive!
> 
> > > There is documentation about how it can be used. I hope its obvious how
> > > I got "texmf" (texmf-context.zip, unzip, delete some files I didn't want
> > > to take up space),
> 
> 
> One suggestion: instead of unpacking and committing "texmf-context.zip",
> I'd recommend adding
> 
> https://github.com/contextgarden/context-mirror/
> 
> as a git submodule. That way, it's easy to keep the files up-to-date, your
> repo will use less space, and there's a clearer separation between your
> package files and ConTeXt itself.
> 
> > > A bit of a disclaimer: I don't really recommend pursuing this further.
> > > Some time ago I was also that foolish to try to package TeX for Linux
> > > distributions. Unfortunately I think that the result will never by
> > > optimal - as demonstrated by the previous discussions, the usual
> > > purposes of packages (to integrate software into the system) don't apply
> > > much to TeX / ConTeXt - there one wants something more or less self
> > > contained (so that updates are under control, no random non-essential
> > > libraries brake things, etc.).
> 
> 
> Well packaging the files into .rpm/.deb isn't really a bad idea; what's
> bad is the weird modifications that distros make, plus the fact that
> nearly every distro delays updates by quite some time. I generally agree
> that installing 

Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[Max Chernoff via ntg-context]

Hi Amano,


> Wuh. That's a bit complex.

Not really. From a user perspective, all that you need to run is

   make install
   
From a developer perspective, this is essentially just the base ConTeXt
files, a modified texmfcnf.lua, and a fairly basic makefile.

> For distribution packages that depend on context for generation of PDF
> documents, having context as a system package is essential.

I'd say that ConTeXt *is* available in nearly every package manager, via
TeX Live. Very very few package managers would have no TeX Live. TeX
Live only includes MkIV, the "stable" version, but most users won't
notice many differences from MkXL/LMTX, the "experimental" version. 

By policy, TeX Live only updates its binaries once per year. This would
be pretty much unworkable with LuaMetaTeX due to its frequent upgrades.
At some point when LuaMetaTeX is stable, the source will be released and
almost certainly be incorporated in TeX Live. 

> And, distribution maintainers can make things work if they understand
> TeX directory structure and texmfcnf.lua.

Packaging/installing ConTeXt is actually much easier than doing so for
other TeX systems. With other systems, you need to fiddle around with
fonts and packages, but with ConTeXt, you can pretty much just unpack a
few files.

Here's a short paper that should give you an overview of how hard
packaging TeX can be:

   https://tug.org/TUGboat/tb34-3/tb108preining-distro.pdf

> It comes down to care. If they care and they have installation guide,
> they will make it work.

I'm not sure who you're talking about here. If you're talking about end-
users, then yes, it's pretty simple to install ConTeXt. I personally
find ConTeXt much easier to install than TeX Live.

If you're talking about packagers, then packaging ConTeXt is no more
complex than packaging TeX Live (which of course includes ConTeXt MkIV).
The installer documentation for ConTeXt LMTX certainly isn't as detailed
as it is for TeX Live, but LMTX is still beta software.

If you're trying to say that the ConTeXt developers don't care, then you
may be "right" in a sense, but missing the point entirely. There is no
one who is paid to work on ConTeXt: all of the developers work on it
either as volunteers or to support their own business needs. The current
installer works for them and for many other users. This isn't to say
that they don't care about the users, but rather that they are unlikely
to spend much time making a package for a fairly unpopular distro where
the official installer already works.

> On Sunday, August 21st, 2022 at 7:13 PM, Michal Vlasák  
> wrote:

Hi Michal,

> > I prepared a proof of concept, that I am ready to take down immediately
> > at Hans' request, since I don't handle license information properly, and
> > texmf-context is stripped down (just so that the downloads are not too
> > big for proof of concept).
> > 
> > https://github.com/vlasakm/context

That's quite impressive!

> > There is documentation about how it can be used. I hope its obvious how
> > I got "texmf" (texmf-context.zip, unzip, delete some files I didn't want
> > to take up space), 

One suggestion: instead of unpacking and committing "texmf-context.zip",
I'd recommend adding 

   https://github.com/contextgarden/context-mirror/
   
as a git submodule. That way, it's easy to keep the files up-to-date, your
repo will use less space, and there's a clearer separation between your
package files and ConTeXt itself.

> > A bit of a disclaimer: I don't really recommend pursuing this further.
> > Some time ago I was also that foolish to try to package TeX for Linux
> > distributions. Unfortunately I think that the result will never by
> > optimal - as demonstrated by the previous discussions, the usual
> > purposes of packages (to integrate software into the system) don't apply
> > much to TeX / ConTeXt - there one wants something more or less self
> > contained (so that updates are under control, no random non-essential
> > libraries brake things, etc.).

Well packaging the files into .rpm/.deb isn't really a bad idea; what's
bad is the weird modifications that distros make, plus the fact that
nearly every distro delays updates by quite some time. I generally agree
that installing TeX straight from the source is better, although I can
see why some users prefer to install from their distro repos.

Thanks,
-- Max

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Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[Alan via ntg-context]

Note that each system is different.
- FreeBSD is posix and follows different packaging conventions from
various linux distributions.
- MacOS has MacPorts as well as Brew, different systems with different
packaging conventions.
etc.

A package maintainer knows the requirements of the system being
maintained, not upstream developers.

Alan

On Thu, 18 Aug 2022 13:53:41 +
"amano.kenji"  wrote:

> Imagine installation instructions given by linux from scratch.
> 
> install.sh is like `apt-get install ConTeXt`.
> 
> Linux from scratch would document the following commands.
> 
> ```
> tar xf luametatex-2022.06.tar.xz
> cd /path/to/luametatex-2022.06
> make
> cp luametatex /usr/bin
> 
> tar xf context-2022.06.tar.xz
> cd /path/to/context-2022.06
> cp -r font /path/to/usr/share/texmf-dist
> ...
> ```
> 
> I want something like this.
> 
> --- Original Message ---
> On Thursday, August 18th, 2022 at 1:16 PM, Alan
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> > On Wed, 17 Aug 2022 17:42:18 +0200
> > Hans Hagen via ntg-context ntg-context@ntg.nl wrote:
> >   
> > > sorry, i just can't spent time on all the possible variant ways of
> > > installation .. that is up to volunteers  
> > 
> > 
> > OS distribution packages are the responsibility of maintainers.
> > "Upstream" developers can, and do, respond to requests for changes
> > that might make packaging for a particular OS easier, but this is
> > not directly the responsibility of developers.
> > 
> > Most OS packages require patches for particularities of that OS
> > environment. LMTX Context, being minimal and fully portable, should
> > be very easy to package as most paths, fonts, etc. are determined
> > dynamically. The Context distribution follows the TeX directory tree
> > structure, and this might not be the practice of some OS, which, for
> > example, might locate different resources on different branches of
> > the system directory structure. Some OS distributions are very
> > particular about this.
> > 
> > I cannot understand the thrust of this thread.
> > 
> > It appears that the only issue for now concerns the distribution of
> > the luametatex source tree. This is not yet the case as luametatex
> > has been undergoing much experimentation. A classic opensource
> > depository would disrupt this experimentation as more people get
> > involved in wanting to make modifications. I believe the intention
> > is to make a release once luametatex development settles into a
> > normal state.
> > 
> > Alan  

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Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[amano.kenji via ntg-context]

Wuh. That's a bit complex.

For distribution packages that depend on context for generation of PDF 
documents, having context as a system package is essential.

And, distribution maintainers can make things work if they understand TeX 
directory structure and texmfcnf.lua.

It comes down to care. If they care and they have installation guide, they will 
make it work.

--- Original Message ---
On Sunday, August 21st, 2022 at 7:13 PM, Michal Vlasák  
wrote:


> On Mon Aug 15, 2022 at 2:03 PM CEST, amano.kenji via ntg-context wrote:
> 
> > TexLive has texmfcnf.lua that doesn't really work with texlive-context 
> > installed by linux distributions.
> > 
> > Arch Linux has its own patched version of texmfcnf.lua.
> > 
> > It seems I'd be better off with a linux package for ConTeXt LMTX.
> > 
> > How can I build and install ConTeXt LMTX on Gentoo Linux or any linux 
> > distribution?
> > 
> > I wish it was as simple as ./configure, make, and make install.
> 
> 
> Some of the problems were mentioned in previous discussions. Like:
> 
> - you would need to maintain your own "snapshots" of the current
> ConTeXt (or make use of the public git mirror)
> - you currently can't build luametatex binary from source, you would
> have to download it prebuilt (and also keep snapshots of it)
> - different directory structure expected by Linux distributions (FHS,
> "file hierarchy standard") vs TeX (TDS, "TeX directory structure")
> 
> In addition, there are still many uncertain things, like how you want to
> handle fonts:
> 
> - install some with ConTeXt? (In that case you might distribute fonts
> already available in your Linux distribution)
> - use system ones? (Then your documents may be subject to breakages
> from uncoordinated updates - ConTeXt has goodie files tuned to
> particular versions of fonts)
> 
> Also, AFAIK, packages are diligent with keeping license information and
> documentation, you would have to decide how that information would be
> kept (this is mostly the directory structure problem).
> 
> With that said, taking Hans' instructions as a start:
> 
> On Fri Aug 19, 2022 at 3:11 PM CEST, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:
> 
> > Not sure what you mean here but basically a (future) installation is:
> > 
> > - unzip the main zip file
> > - goto the source subtree
> > - run build.sh (assumes compiler and cmake installed)
> > - move the binary file to the relevant bin location
> > - set symlinks from luametatex to mtsrun and context
> > - copy mtxrun.lua and context.lue there too
> > - adapt your path
> > - maybe add texmf-fonts and texmf-projects
> > - and you're done
> 
> 
> You need two things from ConTeXt: texmf directories (there are two
> provided by ConTeXt "texmf-context" - what you really need, "texmf" -
> mostly fonts) and the luametatex binary.
> 
> For simplicity let's only include "texmf-context":
> 
> In that case you need to extract "mtxrun" (rename to "luametatex") from
> http://lmtx.pragma-ade.nl/install-lmtx/context-linux-64.zip and download
> the "texmf-context" texmf tree from
> http://lmtx.pragma-ade.nl/install-lmtx/texmf-context.zip.
> 
> This is how you get luametatex to execute script like mtxrun or context:
> 
> - luametatex binary gets executed with name (argv[0]) 

Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[Michal Vlasák via ntg-context]

On Mon Aug 15, 2022 at 2:03 PM CEST, amano.kenji via ntg-context wrote:
> TexLive has texmfcnf.lua that doesn't really work with texlive-context 
> installed by linux distributions.
>
> Arch Linux has its own patched version of texmfcnf.lua.
>
> It seems I'd be better off with a linux package for ConTeXt LMTX.
>
> How can I build and install ConTeXt LMTX on Gentoo Linux or any linux 
> distribution?
>
> I wish it was as simple as ./configure, make, and make install.

Some of the problems were mentioned in previous discussions. Like:

 - you would need to maintain your own "snapshots" of the current
   ConTeXt (or make use of the public git mirror)
 - you currently can't build luametatex binary from source, you would
   have to download it prebuilt (and also keep snapshots of it)
 - different directory structure expected by Linux distributions (FHS,
   "file hierarchy standard") vs TeX (TDS, "TeX directory structure")

In addition, there are still many uncertain things, like how you want to
handle fonts:

 - install some with ConTeXt? (In that case you might distribute fonts
   already available in your Linux distribution)
 - use system ones? (Then your documents may be subject to breakages
   from uncoordinated updates - ConTeXt has goodie files tuned to
   particular versions of fonts)

Also, AFAIK, packages are diligent with keeping license information and
documentation, you would have to decide how that information would be
kept (this is mostly the directory structure problem).

With that said, taking Hans' instructions as a start:

On Fri Aug 19, 2022 at 3:11 PM CEST, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:
> Not sure what you mean here but basically a (future) installation is:
>
> - unzip the main zip file
> - goto the source subtree
> - run build.sh (assumes compiler and cmake installed)
> - move the binary file to the relevant bin location
> - set symlinks from luametatex to mtsrun and context
> - copy mtxrun.lua and context.lue there too
> - adapt your path
> - maybe add texmf-fonts and texmf-projects
> - and you're done

You need two things from ConTeXt: texmf directories (there are two
provided by ConTeXt "texmf-context" - what you really need, "texmf" -
mostly fonts) and the luametatex binary.

For simplicity let's only include "texmf-context":

In that case you need to extract "mtxrun" (rename to "luametatex") from
http://lmtx.pragma-ade.nl/install-lmtx/context-linux-64.zip and download
the "texmf-context" texmf tree from
http://lmtx.pragma-ade.nl/install-lmtx/texmf-context.zip.

This is how you get luametatex to execute script like mtxrun or context:

 - luametatex binary gets executed with name (argv[0]) 

Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 8/19/2022 3:18 PM, amano.kenji wrote:

Okay. An installation guide for package distributors may appear in the future. 
But, it's not going to appear anytime soon.

For now, I'm going to fix up texmfcnf.lua in Gentoo Linux texlive package for 
using stable releases of ConTeXt and use install.sh for testing the latest 
changes.

Actually you can find some in

  followingup-stubs.tex

which has been in the context distribution for a while. It also explains 
the difference between running the two engines.


Hans

-
  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[amano.kenji via ntg-context]

Okay. An installation guide for package distributors may appear in the future. 
But, it's not going to appear anytime soon.

For now, I'm going to fix up texmfcnf.lua in Gentoo Linux texlive package for 
using stable releases of ConTeXt and use install.sh for testing the latest 
changes.

--- Original Message ---
On Friday, August 19th, 2022 at 1:11 PM, Hans Hagen  wrote:


> On 8/19/2022 3:03 PM, amano.kenji wrote:
> 
> > Wait. Are you actually saying that no one who has write access to ConTeXt 
> > source is going to write documentation that describes manual offline 
> > installation for package distributors?
> 
> Not sure what you mean here but basically a (future) installation is:
> 
> - unzip the main zip file
> - goto the source subtree
> - run build.sh (assumes compiler and cmake installed)
> - move the binary file to the relevant bin location
> - set symlinks from luametatex to mtsrun and context
> - copy mtxrun.lua and context.lue there too
> - adapt your path
> - maybe add texmf-fonts and texmf-projects
> - and you're done
> 
> so, something like that, or ... use the online installer instead.
> 
> And how a packager then use that is upto the packager .. we don't
> prescript something at all.
> 
> Hans
> 
> 
> -
> Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
> Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
> tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -
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Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 8/19/2022 3:03 PM, amano.kenji wrote:

Wait. Are you actually saying that no one who has write access to ConTeXt 
source is going to write documentation that describes manual offline 
installation for package distributors?

Not sure what you mean here but basically a (future) installation is:

- unzip the main zip file
- goto the source subtree
- run build.sh (assumes compiler and cmake installed)
- move the binary file to the relevant bin location
- set symlinks from luametatex to mtsrun and context
- copy mtxrun.lua and context.lue there too
- adapt your path
- maybe add texmf-fonts and texmf-projects
- and you're done

so, something like that, or ... use the online installer instead.

And how a packager then use that is upto the packager .. we don't 
prescript something at all.


Hans


-
  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 8/19/2022 2:51 PM, amano.kenji wrote:

You don't have to install anything.

What I'm asking is documentation of offline installation instructions. Offline 
installation means downloading all required archives in advance and then 
installing them without internet access.

Translation of what install.sh roughly does into a documentation that any OS 
package maintainer can read and adapt to one's operating system.

What would you tell a system admin to do if instructions contained in 
install.sh have to be done manually by hand?

For example, you can add a plain text file called INSTALL that has a list of 
commands that build or install ConTeXt into any directory structure. If you 
provide instructions for installing ConTeXt into an arbitrary directory 
structure and how to adjust contextcnf.lua to the new directory structure, 
package maintainers can adapt.

The problem is that there are two methods:

(1) install texlive and unzip the latest context zip if you want the 
latest greatest


(2) for lmtx get the right zips (main one + platform one) and just unzip

However, we have currently no list of the platform ones (they can of 
course be guessed) simply because we assume the installer; the main 
reason for that is that the minimals also just rsynced files depending 
on platform (that each were somewhat different)


It is till undecided if we will post zips with bins or let users compile 
if they install on their own ... it also depends on how we set up the 
garden for lmtx ... keep in mind that lmtx is still experimental 
although it is now moving slower.


So, in due time I guess there will be some install.rme file but then we 
also need to have pointers to the platform bins (in tree format).


Of course you're free to write an installation guide as starting point.

Hans

-
  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[amano.kenji via ntg-context]

Wait. Are you actually saying that no one who has write access to ConTeXt 
source is going to write documentation that describes manual offline 
installation for package distributors?

--- Original Message ---
On Thursday, August 18th, 2022 at 5:16 PM, Hans Hagen  
wrote:


> On 8/18/2022 4:08 PM, amano.kenji wrote:
> 
> > Sorry for spamming the list a little bit.
> > 
> > If there was something like 
> > https://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/view/stable/chapter06/ncurses.html for 
> > ConTeXt and luametatex (binary), then distribution maintainers can make 
> > packages for ConTeXt easily.
> > 
> > I don't know TeX/TeXLive/kpathsea/ConTeXt directory structure conventions. 
> > Linux package maintainers don't know, either. I have packaged hundreds of 
> > programs, and TeX derivatives are monsters.
> > 
> > Most users just install texlive OS package, use TexLive upstream installer, 
> > or use ConTeXt upstream install.sh.
> 
> The problem with something context is that there are basically only two
> components:
> 
> - a tex tree with fonts and macros
> - a few binaries (just one for lmtx)
> 
> while in texlive one has quite some choices. We made these minimals
> actually in order to not end up with complex system dependent
> installations, also because most users just install context this way (it
> is fast too).
> 
> So, as Alan explained, anyone can wrap differently based on that. And if
> something is needed, we can provide it. But I'm not going to install
> something else than what i have for testing it. My develop and work
> machine is windows pro + linux sub system, the servers run opensuse. On
> all I just install under /data/context and that makes it system wide. I
> don't need to set up something apart from adding a binary to the path
> (or when I run from e.g. a web service I just use a fully quialified
> path to mtxrun) .. it cannot be simpler than that.
> 
> Hans
> 
> -
> Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
> Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
> tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -
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Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[amano.kenji via ntg-context]

You don't have to install anything.

What I'm asking is documentation of offline installation instructions. Offline 
installation means downloading all required archives in advance and then 
installing them without internet access.

Translation of what install.sh roughly does into a documentation that any OS 
package maintainer can read and adapt to one's operating system.

What would you tell a system admin to do if instructions contained in 
install.sh have to be done manually by hand?

For example, you can add a plain text file called INSTALL that has a list of 
commands that build or install ConTeXt into any directory structure. If you 
provide instructions for installing ConTeXt into an arbitrary directory 
structure and how to adjust contextcnf.lua to the new directory structure, 
package maintainers can adapt.

--- Original Message ---
On Thursday, August 18th, 2022 at 5:16 PM, Hans Hagen  
wrote:


> On 8/18/2022 4:08 PM, amano.kenji wrote:
> 
> > Sorry for spamming the list a little bit.
> > 
> > If there was something like 
> > https://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/view/stable/chapter06/ncurses.html for 
> > ConTeXt and luametatex (binary), then distribution maintainers can make 
> > packages for ConTeXt easily.
> > 
> > I don't know TeX/TeXLive/kpathsea/ConTeXt directory structure conventions. 
> > Linux package maintainers don't know, either. I have packaged hundreds of 
> > programs, and TeX derivatives are monsters.
> > 
> > Most users just install texlive OS package, use TexLive upstream installer, 
> > or use ConTeXt upstream install.sh.
> 
> The problem with something context is that there are basically only two
> components:
> 
> - a tex tree with fonts and macros
> - a few binaries (just one for lmtx)
> 
> while in texlive one has quite some choices. We made these minimals
> actually in order to not end up with complex system dependent
> installations, also because most users just install context this way (it
> is fast too).
> 
> So, as Alan explained, anyone can wrap differently based on that. And if
> something is needed, we can provide it. But I'm not going to install
> something else than what i have for testing it. My develop and work
> machine is windows pro + linux sub system, the servers run opensuse. On
> all I just install under /data/context and that makes it system wide. I
> don't need to set up something apart from adding a binary to the path
> (or when I run from e.g. a web service I just use a fully quialified
> path to mtxrun) .. it cannot be simpler than that.
> 
> Hans
> 
> -
> Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
> Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
> tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -
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Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 8/18/2022 4:08 PM, amano.kenji wrote:

Sorry for spamming the list a little bit.

If there was something like 
https://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/view/stable/chapter06/ncurses.html for 
ConTeXt and luametatex (binary), then distribution maintainers can make 
packages for ConTeXt easily.

I don't know TeX/TeXLive/kpathsea/ConTeXt directory structure conventions. 
Linux package maintainers don't know, either. I have packaged hundreds of 
programs, and TeX derivatives are monsters.

Most users just install texlive OS package, use TexLive upstream installer, or 
use ConTeXt upstream install.sh.
The problem with something context is that there are basically only two 
components:


- a tex tree with fonts and macros
- a few binaries (just one for lmtx)

while in texlive one has quite some choices. We made these minimals 
actually in order to not end up with complex system dependent 
installations, also because most users just install context this way (it 
is fast too).


So, as Alan explained, anyone can wrap differently based on that. And if 
something is needed, we can provide it. But I'm not going to install 
something else than what i have for testing it. My develop and work 
machine is windows pro + linux sub system, the servers run opensuse. On 
all I just install under /data/context and that makes it system wide. I 
don't need to set up something apart from adding a binary to the path 
(or when I run from e.g. a web service I just use a fully quialified 
path to mtxrun) .. it cannot be simpler than that.


Hans

-
  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[amano.kenji via ntg-context]

Sorry for spamming the list a little bit.

If there was something like 
https://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/view/stable/chapter06/ncurses.html for 
ConTeXt and luametatex (binary), then distribution maintainers can make 
packages for ConTeXt easily.

I don't know TeX/TeXLive/kpathsea/ConTeXt directory structure conventions. 
Linux package maintainers don't know, either. I have packaged hundreds of 
programs, and TeX derivatives are monsters.

Most users just install texlive OS package, use TexLive upstream installer, or 
use ConTeXt upstream install.sh.

--- Original Message ---
On Thursday, August 18th, 2022 at 1:16 PM, Alan  
wrote:


> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022 17:42:18 +0200
> Hans Hagen via ntg-context ntg-context@ntg.nl wrote:
> 
> > sorry, i just can't spent time on all the possible variant ways of
> > installation .. that is up to volunteers
> 
> 
> OS distribution packages are the responsibility of maintainers.
> "Upstream" developers can, and do, respond to requests for changes that
> might make packaging for a particular OS easier, but this is not
> directly the responsibility of developers.
> 
> Most OS packages require patches for particularities of that OS
> environment. LMTX Context, being minimal and fully portable, should be
> very easy to package as most paths, fonts, etc. are determined
> dynamically. The Context distribution follows the TeX directory tree
> structure, and this might not be the practice of some OS, which, for
> example, might locate different resources on different branches of the
> system directory structure. Some OS distributions are very particular
> about this.
> 
> I cannot understand the thrust of this thread.
> 
> It appears that the only issue for now concerns the distribution of the
> luametatex source tree. This is not yet the case as luametatex has been
> undergoing much experimentation. A classic opensource depository
> would disrupt this experimentation as more people get involved in
> wanting to make modifications. I believe the intention is to make a
> release once luametatex development settles into a normal state.
> 
> Alan
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Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[amano.kenji via ntg-context]

Imagine installation instructions given by linux from scratch.

install.sh is like `apt-get install ConTeXt`.

Linux from scratch would document the following commands.

```
tar xf luametatex-2022.06.tar.xz
cd /path/to/luametatex-2022.06
make
cp luametatex /usr/bin

tar xf context-2022.06.tar.xz
cd /path/to/context-2022.06
cp -r font /path/to/usr/share/texmf-dist
...
```

I want something like this.

--- Original Message ---
On Thursday, August 18th, 2022 at 1:16 PM, Alan  
wrote:


> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022 17:42:18 +0200
> Hans Hagen via ntg-context ntg-context@ntg.nl wrote:
> 
> > sorry, i just can't spent time on all the possible variant ways of
> > installation .. that is up to volunteers
> 
> 
> OS distribution packages are the responsibility of maintainers.
> "Upstream" developers can, and do, respond to requests for changes that
> might make packaging for a particular OS easier, but this is not
> directly the responsibility of developers.
> 
> Most OS packages require patches for particularities of that OS
> environment. LMTX Context, being minimal and fully portable, should be
> very easy to package as most paths, fonts, etc. are determined
> dynamically. The Context distribution follows the TeX directory tree
> structure, and this might not be the practice of some OS, which, for
> example, might locate different resources on different branches of the
> system directory structure. Some OS distributions are very particular
> about this.
> 
> I cannot understand the thrust of this thread.
> 
> It appears that the only issue for now concerns the distribution of the
> luametatex source tree. This is not yet the case as luametatex has been
> undergoing much experimentation. A classic opensource depository
> would disrupt this experimentation as more people get involved in
> wanting to make modifications. I believe the intention is to make a
> release once luametatex development settles into a normal state.
> 
> Alan
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Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[amano.kenji via ntg-context]

I really don't understand how TexLive is installed. On Gentoo Linux, the code 
that handles TexLive installation is complex. I can't reuse code that I don't 
understand.

I came from LaTeX background. I got sick of handling incompatible modules in 
LaTeX and decided to try ConTeXt. I had used texlive OS package. I just started 
learning ConTeXt.

In the vast majority of cases, `make install` installs everything.

In case of ConTeXt, there is no `make install`. So, there needs to be a 
document that teaches me which directories I can just copy each source 
directory of ConTeXt to. Copying luametatex to /usr/bin is going to be easy.

I never had to understand TexLive/ConTeXt directory structure because I just 
used TexLive OS package. Now, I'm stuck reverse-engineering a black box.

Am I supposed to execute the following commands in 
https://github.com/contextgarden/context-mirror?

```
cp fonts /path/to/usr/share/texmf-dist
cp context /path/to/usr/share/texmf-dist
...
```

If you teach package maintainers where directories can be installed, then the 
maintainers can adapt the instructions to their own linux distributions.

Example installation commands can help a lot.

install.sh handles the magic behind complex lua functions I don't understand.

--- Original Message ---
On Thursday, August 18th, 2022 at 1:16 PM, Alan  
wrote:


> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022 17:42:18 +0200
> Hans Hagen via ntg-context ntg-context@ntg.nl wrote:
> 
> > sorry, i just can't spent time on all the possible variant ways of
> > installation .. that is up to volunteers
> 
> 
> OS distribution packages are the responsibility of maintainers.
> "Upstream" developers can, and do, respond to requests for changes that
> might make packaging for a particular OS easier, but this is not
> directly the responsibility of developers.
> 
> Most OS packages require patches for particularities of that OS
> environment. LMTX Context, being minimal and fully portable, should be
> very easy to package as most paths, fonts, etc. are determined
> dynamically. The Context distribution follows the TeX directory tree
> structure, and this might not be the practice of some OS, which, for
> example, might locate different resources on different branches of the
> system directory structure. Some OS distributions are very particular
> about this.
> 
> I cannot understand the thrust of this thread.
> 
> It appears that the only issue for now concerns the distribution of the
> luametatex source tree. This is not yet the case as luametatex has been
> undergoing much experimentation. A classic opensource depository
> would disrupt this experimentation as more people get involved in
> wanting to make modifications. I believe the intention is to make a
> release once luametatex development settles into a normal state.
> 
> Alan
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Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[Alan via ntg-context]

On Wed, 17 Aug 2022 17:42:18 +0200
Hans Hagen via ntg-context  wrote:

> sorry, i just can't spent time on all the possible variant ways of 
> installation .. that is up to volunteers

OS distribution packages are the responsibility of maintainers.
"Upstream" developers can, and do, respond to requests for changes that
might make packaging for a particular OS easier, but this is not
directly the responsibility of developers.

Most OS packages require patches for particularities of that OS
environment. LMTX Context, being minimal and fully portable, should be
very easy to package as most paths, fonts, etc. are determined
dynamically. The Context distribution follows the TeX directory tree
structure, and this might not be the practice of some OS, which, for
example, might locate different resources on different branches of the
system directory structure. Some OS distributions are very particular
about this.

I cannot understand the thrust of this thread.

It appears that the only issue for now concerns the distribution of the
luametatex source tree. This is not yet the case as luametatex has been
undergoing much experimentation. A classic opensource depository
would disrupt this experimentation as more people get involved in
wanting to make modifications. I believe the intention is to make a
release once luametatex development settles into a normal state.

Alan
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Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[amano.kenji via ntg-context]

By the way, all POSIX-like opearting systems including BSDs and linux 
distributions share one way of making system packages.

For all POSIX-like operating systems, a simple Makefile can build LuaMetaTex. 
Since each linux distribution may have a slightly different directory 
structure, it would be beneficial for ConTeXt to document contextcnf.lua and 
where each ConTeXt directory can be installed.

I don't know much about Mac OS, but my guess is that if we take care of 
POSIX-like operating systems, we take care of Mac, too.

As far as I know, there is no packaging standard for windows.

Thus, you should only worry about the POSIX way in theory.

--- Original Message ---
On Wednesday, August 17th, 2022 at 3:42 PM, Hans Hagen  
wrote:


> On 8/17/2022 3:09 PM, amano.kenji wrote:
> 
> > * Will TexLive replace its own ConTeXt Mark IV with ConTeXt LMTX?
> 
> 
> at some point we will switch to lmtx and mkiv is than just there and can
> be used but basically it is frozen (already for a while, apart from fixes).
> 
> > * context lmtx binary installer archive is not versioned. I can't use 
> > unversioned archives in OS packages.
> 
> 
> at some point (all depends on time and effort and ...) the source wil be
> part of the context distribution so then one can compile
> 
> > * Is it actually possible to present a separate override file for 
> > contextcnf.lua? If not, I would need to patch contextcnf.lua, or 
> > contextcnf.lua should support both portable installation and OS-level 
> > installation.
> 
> 
> you can put one in texmf-local (as the mtxrun --generate i posted trace
> shows)
> 
> > * Can you make it easier to make an OS package for ConTeXt LMTX by 
> > releasing versioned (source) archives, including BUILD/INSTALL instructions 
> > in the versioned archives, and so on? I wish I could just extract a 
> > versioned binary archive into certain locations or use GNU autotools or use 
> > meson build system which is far better than GNU autotools.
> 
> 
> there is a github repository for the tex stuff and have no experience
> with all that versioning / release / os packaging stuff (couldn't test
> it anyway and continuously adapt to teh subtle differences in
> distributions and os's) ... we just post zips (already for decades) but
> anyone is free to come up with such instructions (e.g. aditya did some
> for arch)
> 
> anyway, lmtx is still kind of experimental and at some point
> installation will move to the garden (not much is needed, just a web
> server) and the packaging scripts are / will be in the distribution ..
> there are no dependencies (and we keep it that way: self contained bins)
> 
> sorry, i just can't spent time on all the possible variant ways of
> installation .. that is up to volunteers
> 
> > While portable installations can be great for testing bleeding edge 
> > features and keeping up with latest development, most of the time, I prefer 
> > OS package releases.
> 
> I never use an os tex release .. who knows whaty has been done with it
> .. esp when one has a long term workflow (e.g. fonts can change)
> 
> Hans
> 
> 
> -
> Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
> Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
> tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -
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Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[amano.kenji via ntg-context]

Okay, TexLive will get ConTeXt LMTX.

If TexLive was the official way to ship stable versions of ConTeXt, I am okay 
with having TexLive ConTeXt as a system package and using ConTeXt LMTX portable 
installer for testing bleeding edge features.

Still, there are a few ways to ship latest changes in ConTeXt LMTX as a linux 
package.

1. If I could just download a few binary archives and extract/unzip them into 
certain directories and modify contextcnf.lua in my package build script and be 
done, I can publish linux packages.
2. If https://github.com/contextgarden/context-mirror/ contains build 
instructions as a document, then I can make linux packages against recent git 
commits. This is better than 1 because linux distribution maintainers can build 
packages for each CPU architecture.

app-text/context would not be able to exist together with 
app-texlive/texlive-context because both are OS packages.

--- Original Message ---
On Wednesday, August 17th, 2022 at 3:42 PM, Hans Hagen  
wrote:


> On 8/17/2022 3:09 PM, amano.kenji wrote:
> 
> > * Will TexLive replace its own ConTeXt Mark IV with ConTeXt LMTX?
> 
> 
> at some point we will switch to lmtx and mkiv is than just there and can
> be used but basically it is frozen (already for a while, apart from fixes).
> 
> > * context lmtx binary installer archive is not versioned. I can't use 
> > unversioned archives in OS packages.
> 
> 
> at some point (all depends on time and effort and ...) the source wil be
> part of the context distribution so then one can compile
> 
> > * Is it actually possible to present a separate override file for 
> > contextcnf.lua? If not, I would need to patch contextcnf.lua, or 
> > contextcnf.lua should support both portable installation and OS-level 
> > installation.
> 
> 
> you can put one in texmf-local (as the mtxrun --generate i posted trace
> shows)
> 
> > * Can you make it easier to make an OS package for ConTeXt LMTX by 
> > releasing versioned (source) archives, including BUILD/INSTALL instructions 
> > in the versioned archives, and so on? I wish I could just extract a 
> > versioned binary archive into certain locations or use GNU autotools or use 
> > meson build system which is far better than GNU autotools.
> 
> 
> there is a github repository for the tex stuff and have no experience
> with all that versioning / release / os packaging stuff (couldn't test
> it anyway and continuously adapt to teh subtle differences in
> distributions and os's) ... we just post zips (already for decades) but
> anyone is free to come up with such instructions (e.g. aditya did some
> for arch)
> 
> anyway, lmtx is still kind of experimental and at some point
> installation will move to the garden (not much is needed, just a web
> server) and the packaging scripts are / will be in the distribution ..
> there are no dependencies (and we keep it that way: self contained bins)
> 
> sorry, i just can't spent time on all the possible variant ways of
> installation .. that is up to volunteers
> 
> > While portable installations can be great for testing bleeding edge 
> > features and keeping up with latest development, most of the time, I prefer 
> > OS package releases.
> 
> I never use an os tex release .. who knows whaty has been done with it
> .. esp when one has a long term workflow (e.g. fonts can change)
> 
> Hans
> 
> 
> -
> Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
> Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
> tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -
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Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context]

Am 18.08.22 um 02:51 schrieb Max Chernoff via ntg-context:

I think all that Amano is asking for is for older versions of the
zips/binaries to be kept available. Right now, the only files available
for download that I'm aware of are the latest versions.


There's an archive at context.aanhet.net/archives/

It doesn’t include other binaries than the windows ones, though.

I guess the build farm keeps a few older versions of the binaries, but I 
can’t find the link ATM.



Hraban


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Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 8/18/2022 2:51 AM, Max Chernoff wrote:



Hi Amano(?), Hans


Can you make it easier to make an OS package for ConTeXt LMTX by
releasing versioned (source) archives, including BUILD/INSTALL
instructions in the versioned archives, and so on? I wish I could just
extract a versioned binary archive into certain locations or use GNU
autotools or use meson build system which is far better than GNU
autotools.


there is a github repository for the tex stuff


For reference, the GitHub repository is at:

https://github.com/contextgarden/context-mirror/

It's semi-official mirror, but the authoritative source is the zips hosted

by Pragma.


and have no experience
with all that versioning / release / os packaging stuff (couldn't test
it anyway and continuously adapt to teh subtle differences in
distributions and os's) ... we just post zips (already for decades) but
anyone is free to come up with such instructions (e.g. aditya did some
for arch)

anyway, lmtx is still kind of experimental and at some point
installation will move to the garden (not much is needed, just a web
server) and the packaging scripts are / will be in the distribution  ..
there are no dependencies (and we keep it that way: self contained bins)

sorry, i just can't spent time on all the possible variant ways of
installation .. that is up to volunteers


I think all that Amano is asking for is for older versions of the
zips/binaries to be kept available. Right now, the only files available
for download that I'm aware of are the latest versions.

This is problematic from a reproducibility standpoint, since if you have
multiple people, say, writing a large textbook, it would make sense that
they wouldn't want to upgrade their systems constantly in case something
breaks. These people can easily just avoid upgrades, but if someone new
joins the team, they can only download the newest version. However, that
won't necessarily match the older version that everyone else has, which
can lead to problems.

Having older versions available would also help in the case of major
short-term regressions, since users would be able to (manually)
downgrade to an older version if necessary.

An easy solution to this would be the following: instead of overwriting
the whole "/install-lmtx/" tree on every update, you would install all
the new files to something like "/install-lmtx-2022-08-07/", then have
"/install-lmtx/" be a symlink to the latest "/install-lmtx--MM-DD/".
I don't think that this would be very hard to implement from a technical
perspective, and the only downside that I can think of would be extra
disk space used. This is a fairly common implementation among other
software.

One other solution would be to have "dl.contextgarden.net" mirror a
zip/binary combo once every few months or so. These would often be out
of date, but they would provide a stable archive that would be useful in
cases like this.

This is just a suggestion though; it's not something that I personally
need, although I see how it could be potentially valuable for others.
At some point binaries won't change much. After all, we don't package 
the luatex binaries either and they also can relate to versions of tex 
code (in the early days of luatex dev we had a similar situation).


Now, when it comes to reproducability: the idea behind the relatively 
small installations is that one just keeps an old tree around. So, say 
you install, then decide to update but don't want any risk, you then 
copy the whole tree because there can be engine-texcode depdencies.


The current 'installer' actually works liek this:

- you download the small zip
- using that you install the tree which initially means download and 
unzip (it uses the build in unzip)

- then it makes some symlinks etc

a next time you update, it will first check what got changed, for which 
it uses the hashes in the tma files and that download then doesn't use a 
zip but an unpacked tree on the server


so, in your proposal that would mean that i had to keep around plenty of 
zips (as each platform has one) as well as all these unpacked trees


I now run this on a relatively small virtual machine on one of the 
servers and don't look forward to expanding that: i can easily push 
updates there. Of course all can be done, and extending script is easy 
but one needs a very good reason (to spend spare time and money on this 
as after all it comes for free).


Mojca and I have been discussing the binary part wrt githib but even 
with the relatively small luametatex binaries it's a bit of a challenge 
on git. We have some ideas but need time to do it and it doesn't have a 
high priority. I expect that one of these days the binaries won't change 
that much. We're still enhancing / improving the math sub-engine so that 
can create a depedency but at some point there will be a stable version. 
We do all dev in a separate repository anyway. Also, when the sources 
are in the distribution users can compile themselves, read: 

Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[Max Chernoff via ntg-context]

> 
Hi Amano(?), Hans

> > Can you make it easier to make an OS package for ConTeXt LMTX by
> > releasing versioned (source) archives, including BUILD/INSTALL
> > instructions in the versioned archives, and so on? I wish I could just
> > extract a versioned binary archive into certain locations or use GNU
> > autotools or use meson build system which is far better than GNU
> > autotools.
> 
> there is a github repository for the tex stuff 

For reference, the GitHub repository is at:

   https://github.com/contextgarden/context-mirror/
   
It's semi-official mirror, but the authoritative source is the zips hosted
by Pragma. 

> and have no experience 
> with all that versioning / release / os packaging stuff (couldn't test
> it anyway and continuously adapt to teh subtle differences in 
> distributions and os's) ... we just post zips (already for decades) but 
> anyone is free to come up with such instructions (e.g. aditya did some
> for arch)
> 
> anyway, lmtx is still kind of experimental and at some point 
> installation will move to the garden (not much is needed, just a web 
> server) and the packaging scripts are / will be in the distribution  .. 
> there are no dependencies (and we keep it that way: self contained bins)
> 
> sorry, i just can't spent time on all the possible variant ways of 
> installation .. that is up to volunteers

I think all that Amano is asking for is for older versions of the
zips/binaries to be kept available. Right now, the only files available
for download that I'm aware of are the latest versions.

This is problematic from a reproducibility standpoint, since if you have
multiple people, say, writing a large textbook, it would make sense that
they wouldn't want to upgrade their systems constantly in case something
breaks. These people can easily just avoid upgrades, but if someone new
joins the team, they can only download the newest version. However, that
won't necessarily match the older version that everyone else has, which
can lead to problems.

Having older versions available would also help in the case of major
short-term regressions, since users would be able to (manually)
downgrade to an older version if necessary. 

An easy solution to this would be the following: instead of overwriting
the whole "/install-lmtx/" tree on every update, you would install all
the new files to something like "/install-lmtx-2022-08-07/", then have
"/install-lmtx/" be a symlink to the latest "/install-lmtx--MM-DD/".
I don't think that this would be very hard to implement from a technical
perspective, and the only downside that I can think of would be extra
disk space used. This is a fairly common implementation among other
software.

One other solution would be to have "dl.contextgarden.net" mirror a
zip/binary combo once every few months or so. These would often be out
of date, but they would provide a stable archive that would be useful in
cases like this.

This is just a suggestion though; it's not something that I personally
need, although I see how it could be potentially valuable for others.

Thanks,
-- Max
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Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 8/17/2022 3:09 PM, amano.kenji wrote:

* Will TexLive replace its own ConTeXt Mark IV with ConTeXt LMTX?


at some point we will switch to lmtx and mkiv is than just there and can 
be used but basically it is frozen (already for a while, apart from fixes).



* context lmtx binary installer archive is not versioned. I can't use 
unversioned archives in OS packages.


at some point (all depends on time and effort and ...) the source wil be 
part of the context distribution so then one can compile



* Is it actually possible to present a separate override file for 
contextcnf.lua? If not, I would need to patch contextcnf.lua, or contextcnf.lua 
should support both portable installation and OS-level installation.


you can put one in texmf-local (as the mtxrun --generate i posted trace 
shows)



* Can you make it easier to make an OS package for ConTeXt LMTX by releasing 
versioned (source) archives, including BUILD/INSTALL instructions in the 
versioned archives, and so on? I wish I could just extract a versioned binary 
archive into certain locations or use GNU autotools or use meson build system 
which is far better than GNU autotools.


there is a github repository for the tex stuff and have no experience 
with all that versioning / release / os packaging stuff (couldn't test 
it anyway and continuously adapt to teh subtle differences in 
distributions and os's) ... we just post zips (already for decades) but 
anyone is free to come up with such instructions (e.g. aditya did some 
for arch)


anyway, lmtx is still kind of experimental and at some point 
installation will move to the garden (not much is needed, just a web 
server) and the packaging scripts are / will be in the distribution  .. 
there are no dependencies (and we keep it that way: self contained bins)


sorry, i just can't spent time on all the possible variant ways of 
installation .. that is up to volunteers



While portable installations can be great for testing bleeding edge features 
and keeping up with latest development, most of the time, I prefer OS package 
releases.
I never use an os tex release .. who knows whaty has been done with it 
.. esp when one has a long term workflow (e.g. fonts can change)


Hans


-
  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[amano.kenji via ntg-context]

* Will TexLive replace its own ConTeXt Mark IV with ConTeXt LMTX?
* context lmtx binary installer archive is not versioned. I can't use 
unversioned archives in OS packages.
* Is it actually possible to present a separate override file for 
contextcnf.lua? If not, I would need to patch contextcnf.lua, or contextcnf.lua 
should support both portable installation and OS-level installation.
* Can you make it easier to make an OS package for ConTeXt LMTX by releasing 
versioned (source) archives, including BUILD/INSTALL instructions in the 
versioned archives, and so on? I wish I could just extract a versioned binary 
archive into certain locations or use GNU autotools or use meson build system 
which is far better than GNU autotools.

While portable installations can be great for testing bleeding edge features 
and keeping up with latest development, most of the time, I prefer OS package 
releases.

--- Original Message ---
On Tuesday, August 16th, 2022 at 4:02 PM, Hans Hagen via ntg-context 
 wrote:


> On 8/16/2022 1:43 PM, amano.kenji via ntg-context wrote:
> 
> > Even if I put the installation in an archive and make a linux package that 
> > installs the archive, I still have to modify contextcnf.lua which isn't 
> > intended to handle differing system-wide installation paths of various 
> > POSIX-like operating systems.
> > 
> > And, I don't really know
> > 
> > * what the variables in contextcnf.lua mean and do.
> > * whether there is a way to override certain variables in contextcnf.lua 
> > with another file. A separate override file is going to make it easy for 
> > linux distributions to override certain variables in contextcnf.lua.
> 
> mtxrun --generate
> 
> reports all kind of locations where configurations files are looked for
> 
> one can also set environment variables and see what is used
> 
> mtxrun --variables
> mtxrun --expansions
> 
> so there are plenty ways to configure and you can run
> 
> > mtxrun --configurations
> 
> 
> which on my machine gives
> 
> system | resolved | file :
> c:/data/develop/tex-context/tex/texmf-local/web2c/texmfcnf.lua
> system | resolved | file :
> c:/data/develop/tex-context/tex/texmf/web2c/texmfcnf.lua
> 
> indicating that i use an additional configuration file
> 
> there are some boundary conditions:
> 
> - we use mtxrun as runner and that one used luatex as lua engine
> - this means that mtxrun[.lua] has to be in the same path as the binary
> 
> in lmtx we even go a bit further:
> 
> - in lmtx there is mtxrun.lua
> - as well as context.lua
> - there are 'mtxrun' and 'context' binaries that are either copies or
> symlinks to luametatex in the same path
> - this is the same on unix and windows
> 
> in lmtx luametatex is also used as runner for mkiv when installed
> 
> on unix i normally just install the minimal tree and then either add the
> bin path to the path or just run mtxrun fully qualified (actually always
> for the whole system under /data/context)
> 
> Hans
> 
> -
> Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
> Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
> tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -
> ___
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the 
> Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / 
> https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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> wiki : https://contextgarden.net
> ___
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Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 8/16/2022 1:43 PM, amano.kenji via ntg-context wrote:

Even if I put the installation in an archive and make a linux package that 
installs the archive, I still have to modify contextcnf.lua which isn't 
intended to handle differing system-wide installation paths of various 
POSIX-like operating systems.

And, I don't really know

* what the variables in contextcnf.lua mean and do.
* whether there is a way to override certain variables in contextcnf.lua with 
another file. A separate override file is going to make it easy for linux 
distributions to override certain variables in contextcnf.lua.

  mtxrun --generate

reports all kind of locations where configurations files are looked for

one can also set environment variables and see what is used

  mtxrun --variables
  mtxrun --expansions

so there are plenty ways to configure and you can run

>mtxrun --configurations

which on my machine gives

system  | resolved | file : 
c:/data/develop/tex-context/tex/texmf-local/web2c/texmfcnf.lua
system  | resolved | file : 
c:/data/develop/tex-context/tex/texmf/web2c/texmfcnf.lua


indicating that i use an additional configuration file

there are some boundary conditions:

- we use mtxrun as runner and that one used luatex as lua engine
- this means that mtxrun[.lua] has to be in the same path as the binary

in lmtx we even go a bit further:

- in lmtx there is mtxrun.lua
- as well as context.lua
- there are 'mtxrun' and 'context' binaries that are either copies or 
symlinks to luametatex in the same path

- this is the same on unix and windows

in lmtx luametatex is also used as runner for mkiv when installed

on unix i normally just install the minimal tree and then either add the 
bin path to the path or just run mtxrun fully qualified (actually always 
for the whole system under /data/context)


Hans

-
  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[amano.kenji via ntg-context]

Even if I put the installation in an archive and make a linux package that 
installs the archive, I still have to modify contextcnf.lua which isn't 
intended to handle differing system-wide installation paths of various 
POSIX-like operating systems.

And, I don't really know

* what the variables in contextcnf.lua mean and do.
* whether there is a way to override certain variables in contextcnf.lua with 
another file. A separate override file is going to make it easy for linux 
distributions to override certain variables in contextcnf.lua.

--- Original Message ---
On Monday, August 15th, 2022 at 5:00 PM, Bruce Horrocks  
wrote:


> > On 15 Aug 2022, at 13:19, amano.kenji amano.ke...@proton.me wrote:
> >
> > I was trying to translate instructions in install.sh and dependencies of 
> > install.sh into shell commands in a Gentoo Linux package.
> >
> > Gentoo Linux downloads all dependencies and builds a package in a network 
> > namespace where there is no internet access.
>
>
> If you must use a Linux that makes life hard... ;-)
>
> I'm guessing you're trying to prepare ConTeXt for use in a private repository 
> on a LAN so that your users can install it without needing Internet access?
>
> ConTeXt only depends on glibc (iirc) - and it assumes it is present already. 
> So do an install on a machine that does have Internet access and everything 
> you need will then be self-contained in the directory you chose to install 
> into. Zip up that directory and use it for subsequent installs as many times 
> as you want just by unzipping it - no further Internet access required.
>
> You'll need to set up the PATH for where you unzipped the file - but the 
> install.sh file has the necessary information towards the end.
>
> Try it and see - it's not like typical modern bloatware that pulls down 100's 
> of Gbytes of dependencies willy-nilly.
>
> > Thus, install.sh cannot be directly used in a gentoo linux package. I have 
> > to translate instructions used in install.sh into shell commands.
> >
> > How can I do that? Can I somehow execute mtx-install.lua, mtxrun.lua, or 
> > mtxrun in a way that doesn't require internet access?
> >
> > --- Original Message ---
> > On Monday, August 15th, 2022 at 12:12 PM, Bruce Horrocks n...@scorecrow.com 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > > On 15 Aug 2022, at 13:03, amano.kenji via ntg-context 
> > > > ntg-context@ntg.nl wrote:
> > > >
> > > > TexLive has texmfcnf.lua that doesn't really work with texlive-context 
> > > > installed by linux distributions.
> > > >
> > > > Arch Linux has its own patched version of texmfcnf.lua.
> > > >
> > > > It seems I'd be better off with a linux package for ConTeXt LMTX.
> > > >
> > > > How can I build and install ConTeXt LMTX on Gentoo Linux or any linux 
> > > > distribution?
> > > >
> > > > I wish it was as simple as ./configure, make, and make install.
> > >
> > > Install instructions for LMTX on Linux are here:
> > > https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Installation
> > >
> > > It's pre-built so there are no make steps.
> > >
> > > Try it and ask again if you have problems. :-)
> > >
> > > —
> > > Bruce Horrocks
> > > Hampshire, UK
>
>
> —
> Bruce Horrocks
> Hampshire, UK
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Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[amano.kenji via ntg-context]

The problem is that I read that ConTeXt Mark IV will be phased out in favor of 
ConTeXt LMTX.

If TexLive ConTeXt is outdated, I will want to use ConTeXt LMTX.

I want ConTeXt installed as a linux distribution package.

I think LMTX should accommodate linux distributions as well as portable 
installation.

--- Original Message ---
On Monday, August 15th, 2022 at 6:46 PM, Alan Braslau 
 wrote:


> I believe that you are missing the point of LMTX.
>
> LMTX Context is intended to be a self-contained AND PORTABLE directory
> tree. It does not need system installation paths and such and is
> designed to happily co-exist with system installed TeX (using packages)
> or TeXlive or others, without interference. The LMTX directory tree is
> very light-weight and indeed many production users might keep a separate
> copy with EACH major TeX project, thus ensuring that the project will
> continue to compile without changes as LMTX evolves. This strategy can
> be a successful insurance that very old projects will continue to
> compile yielding the same results many years later.
>
> Not that you need to go that far.
>
> Many users install LMTX for a system-wide use in some commonly
> accessible location. This is totally portable: only the PATH needs to be
> set to find the correct context executable.
>
> LMTX does not go the route of system packages as this relies on package
> maintainers. ConTeXt mkiv with luatex continues to be made available and
> updated with TeXlive, so any system packages that provide TeXlive can
> provide ConTeXt.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
> On 15/08/2022 07:54, amano.kenji via ntg-context wrote:
>
> > From my perspective, a few optimizations for system installation need to 
> > happen for ConTeXt.
> >
> > contextcnf.lua needs to support system installation paths.
> >
> > Arch Linux texlive-core packages has its own patched version of 
> > texmfcnf.lua that sets TEXMFSYSVAR=/var/lib/texmf, TEXMFOS=/usr/share, 
> > TEXMFDIST=/usr/share/texmf-dist, and TEXMFSYSCONFIG=/etc/texmf.
> >
> > TexLive's own version of texmfcnf.lua is not suitable for system-wide 
> > installation.
> >
> > contexcnf.lua assumes all paths are relative to /path/to/extracted-archive 
> > which is definitely not a system-wide installation.
> >
> > A system-wide installation is installed to absolute paths.
> >
> > On top of that, there needs to be a document called INSTALLATION or BUILD 
> > that offers a simplified version of build/installation instructions 
> > contained in install.sh, mtx-install.lua, and mtxrun.lua. It seems mtxrun 
> > can be used to build and install ConTeXt without internet access as long as 
> > all dependencies are already present.
> >
> > If ConTeXt is optimized for system-wide installation by modifying 
> > contextcnf.lua and adding INSTALL or BUILD, then all POSIX-like operating 
> > systems will be able to easily make packages for ConTeXt. Not just Gentoo 
> > Linux.
> >
> > Can anyone help me with optimizing ConTeXt for system-wide installation?
> >
> > --- Original Message ---
> > On Monday, August 15th, 2022 at 12:12 PM, Bruce Horrocks n...@scorecrow.com 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > > On 15 Aug 2022, at 13:03, amano.kenji via ntg-context 
> > > > ntg-context@ntg.nl wrote:
> > > >
> > > > TexLive has texmfcnf.lua that doesn't really work with texlive-context 
> > > > installed by linux distributions.
> > > >
> > > > Arch Linux has its own patched version of texmfcnf.lua.
> > > >
> > > > It seems I'd be better off with a linux package for ConTeXt LMTX.
> > > >
> > > > How can I build and install ConTeXt LMTX on Gentoo Linux or any linux 
> > > > distribution?
> > > >
> > > > I wish it was as simple as ./configure, make, and make install.
> > >
> > > Install instructions for LMTX on Linux are here:
> > > https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Installation
> > >
> > > It's pre-built so there are no make steps.
> > >
> > > Try it and ask again if you have problems. :-)
> > >
> > > —
> > > Bruce Horrocks
> > > Hampshire, UK
> > > ___
> > > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to 
> > > the Wiki!
> >
> > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / 
> > https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> > webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> > archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> > wiki : https://contextgarden.net
> > ___
>
>
>
> --
> --
> Alan
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Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[amano.kenji via ntg-context]

http://lmtx.pragma-ade.nl/install-lmtx/texmf-context.zip is not versioned.

If the file changes later, linux distributions refuse to use the file.

I wish ConTeXt and LuaMetaTex were versioned and provided `offline` build 
instructions. The vast majority of programs are versioned and can be built 
easily offline. Even if they were distributed as binary files, if they are 
versioned, I can still make linux packages out of them.

--- Original Message ---
On Monday, August 15th, 2022 at 9:56 PM, Max Chernoff  wrote:


> Okay, I'm seeing a few separate issues here.
>
> 1. Gentoo expects to compile everything from source.
>
> This isn't an option here since LuaMetaTeX doesn't have any source
> available (yet). So for the time being, you'll need to use the provided
> binaries. These support pretty much every architecture, so this
> shouldn't really be a problem.
>
> 2. You want to install ConTeXt LMTX system-wide.
>
> This is doable with the standard Linux installer script. Just make sure
> to run the script as root and install the files in /opt/context. This is
> what I've done on my system, and it works quite well.
>
> $ ls -l $(type -p context)
> lrwxrwxrwx. 1 root root 10 Jul 28 00:33 
> /opt/context/tex/texmf-linux-64/bin/context -> luametatex*
>
>
> 3. You want to install ConTeXt without any network access.
>
> The easiest way to do this would be to install on a system with
> internet, then just copy over the files.
>
> If you want to use the "original" installer files, it shouldn't be
> impossible, but probably not too easy either. (All steps below are
> untested)
>
> The platform-independent stuff is all in one big zip, located at:
>
> http://lmtx.pragma-ade.nl/install-lmtx/texmf-context.zip
>
> Unzip this file as "/tex/texmf-context/".
>
>
> Then you also need to download all of the binaries. You will need to
> download all of the paths listed in this file:
>
> http://lmtx.pragma-ade.nl/install-lmtx/tex/texmf-linux-64.tma
>
> All of those files need to be placed in "/tex/texmf-linux-
>
> 64/bin".
>
> Then to finish installing you'll need to run "mtxrun --generate" and
> "context --make". There are probably a bunch of other steps that I'm
> missing, but this should get you close.
>
> Again, probably easier to just use the regular installer.
>
> 4. ConTeXt is really picky about texmfcnf stuff.
>
> This is an issue that I've had too:
>
> https://github.com/latex3/l3build/issues/232
>
> Pretty much any modification of anything texmfcnf-related with ConTeXt
> will completely prevent it from running. There's a thread discussing the
> problem (but with no real solutions) here:
>
> https://tug.org/pipermail/tex-live/2020-September/046099.html
>
> And a Wiki page here:
>
> https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Custom_Configuration
>
> I agree that this texmfcnf stuff makes it really difficult to install or
> use ConTeXt with any kind of custom paths. Does anyone know how to
> properly configure a texmfcnf with custom paths?
>
> Hopefully this is of some help.
> -- Max
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Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[Max Chernoff via ntg-context]

Okay, I'm seeing a few separate issues here.

1. Gentoo expects to compile everything from source.

   This isn't an option here since LuaMetaTeX doesn't have any source
   available (yet). So for the time being, you'll need to use the provided
   binaries. These support pretty much every architecture, so this
   shouldn't really be a problem.

2. You want to install ConTeXt LMTX system-wide.

   This is doable with the standard Linux installer script. Just make sure
   to run the script as root and install the files in /opt/context. This is
   what I've done on my system, and it works quite well. 
   
  $ ls -l $(type -p context)
  lrwxrwxrwx. 1 root root 10 Jul 28 00:33 
/opt/context/tex/texmf-linux-64/bin/context -> luametatex*
  
3. You want to install ConTeXt without any network access.

   The easiest way to do this would be to install on a system with
   internet, then just copy over the files. 
   
   If you want to use the "original" installer files, it shouldn't be
   impossible, but probably not too easy either. (All steps below are
   untested)
   
   The platform-independent stuff is all in one big zip, located at:
   
  http://lmtx.pragma-ade.nl/install-lmtx/texmf-context.zip
  
   Unzip this file as "/tex/texmf-context/".
  
   Then you also need to download all of the binaries. You will need to
   download all of the paths listed in this file:
   
  http://lmtx.pragma-ade.nl/install-lmtx/tex/texmf-linux-64.tma
  
   All of those files need to be placed in "/tex/texmf-linux-
   64/bin".
   
   Then to finish installing you'll need to run "mtxrun --generate" and
   "context --make". There are probably a bunch of other steps that I'm
   missing, but this should get you close.
   
   Again, probably easier to just use the regular installer.

4. ConTeXt is really picky about texmfcnf stuff.

   This is an issue that I've had too:
   
  https://github.com/latex3/l3build/issues/232
   
   Pretty much any modification of anything texmfcnf-related with ConTeXt
   will completely prevent it from running. There's a thread discussing the
   problem (but with no real solutions) here:
   
  https://tug.org/pipermail/tex-live/2020-September/046099.html
  
   And a Wiki page here:
   
  https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Custom_Configuration
  
   I agree that this texmfcnf stuff makes it really difficult to install or
   use ConTeXt with any kind of custom paths. Does anyone know how to
   properly configure a texmfcnf with custom paths?
   
Hopefully this is of some help.
-- Max
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Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[Alan Braslau via ntg-context]

I believe that you are missing the point of LMTX.

LMTX Context is intended to be a self-contained AND PORTABLE directory 
tree. It does not need system installation paths and such and is 
designed to happily co-exist with system installed TeX (using packages) 
or TeXlive or others, without interference. The LMTX directory tree is 
very light-weight and indeed many production users might keep a separate 
copy with EACH major TeX project, thus ensuring that the project will 
continue to compile without changes as LMTX evolves. This strategy can 
be a successful insurance that very old projects will continue to 
compile yielding the same results many years later.


Not that you need to go that far.

Many users install LMTX for a system-wide use in some commonly 
accessible location. This is totally portable: only the PATH needs to be 
set to find the correct context executable.


LMTX does not go the route of system packages as this relies on package 
maintainers. ConTeXt mkiv with luatex continues to be made available and 
updated with TeXlive, so any system packages that provide TeXlive can 
provide ConTeXt.


Alan



On 15/08/2022 07:54, amano.kenji via ntg-context wrote:

 From my perspective, a few optimizations for system installation need to 
happen for ConTeXt.

contextcnf.lua needs to support system installation paths.

Arch Linux texlive-core packages has its own patched version of texmfcnf.lua 
that sets TEXMFSYSVAR=/var/lib/texmf, TEXMFOS=/usr/share, 
TEXMFDIST=/usr/share/texmf-dist, and TEXMFSYSCONFIG=/etc/texmf.

TexLive's own version of texmfcnf.lua is not suitable for system-wide 
installation.

contexcnf.lua assumes all paths are relative to /path/to/extracted-archive 
which is definitely not a system-wide installation.

A system-wide installation is installed to absolute paths.

On top of that, there needs to be a document called INSTALLATION or BUILD that 
offers a simplified version of build/installation instructions contained in 
install.sh, mtx-install.lua, and mtxrun.lua. It seems mtxrun can be used to 
build and install ConTeXt without internet access as long as all dependencies 
are already present.

If ConTeXt is optimized for system-wide installation by modifying 
contextcnf.lua and adding INSTALL or BUILD, then all POSIX-like operating 
systems will be able to easily make packages for ConTeXt. Not just Gentoo Linux.

Can anyone help me with optimizing ConTeXt for system-wide installation?

--- Original Message ---
On Monday, August 15th, 2022 at 12:12 PM, Bruce Horrocks  
wrote:



On 15 Aug 2022, at 13:03, amano.kenji via ntg-context ntg-context@ntg.nl wrote:

TexLive has texmfcnf.lua that doesn't really work with texlive-context 
installed by linux distributions.

Arch Linux has its own patched version of texmfcnf.lua.

It seems I'd be better off with a linux package for ConTeXt LMTX.

How can I build and install ConTeXt LMTX on Gentoo Linux or any linux 
distribution?

I wish it was as simple as ./configure, make, and make install.



Install instructions for LMTX on Linux are here:
https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Installation


It's pre-built so there are no make steps.

Try it and ask again if you have problems. :-)

—
Bruce Horrocks
Hampshire, UK

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--
--
Alan
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Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context]

> On 15 Aug 2022, at 13:19, amano.kenji  wrote:
> 
> I was trying to translate instructions in install.sh and dependencies of 
> install.sh into shell commands in a Gentoo Linux package.
> 
> Gentoo Linux downloads all dependencies and builds a package in a network 
> namespace where there is no internet access.

If you must use a Linux that makes life hard... ;-)

I'm guessing you're trying to prepare ConTeXt for use in a private repository 
on a LAN so that your users can install it without needing Internet access?

ConTeXt only depends on glibc (iirc) - and it assumes it is present already. So 
do an install on a machine that does have Internet access and everything you 
need will then be self-contained in the directory you chose to install into. 
Zip up that directory and use it for subsequent installs as many times as you 
want just by unzipping it - no further Internet access required.

You'll need to set up the PATH for where you unzipped the file - but the 
install.sh file has the necessary information towards the end.

Try it and see - it's not like typical modern bloatware that pulls down 100's 
of Gbytes of dependencies willy-nilly.

> 
> Thus, install.sh cannot be directly used in a gentoo linux package. I have to 
> translate instructions used in install.sh into shell commands.
> 
> How can I do that? Can I somehow execute mtx-install.lua, mtxrun.lua, or 
> mtxrun in a way that doesn't require internet access?
> 
> --- Original Message ---
> On Monday, August 15th, 2022 at 12:12 PM, Bruce Horrocks  
> wrote:
> 
> 
>>> On 15 Aug 2022, at 13:03, amano.kenji via ntg-context ntg-context@ntg.nl 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> TexLive has texmfcnf.lua that doesn't really work with texlive-context 
>>> installed by linux distributions.
>>> 
>>> Arch Linux has its own patched version of texmfcnf.lua.
>>> 
>>> It seems I'd be better off with a linux package for ConTeXt LMTX.
>>> 
>>> How can I build and install ConTeXt LMTX on Gentoo Linux or any linux 
>>> distribution?
>>> 
>>> I wish it was as simple as ./configure, make, and make install.
>> 
>> 
>> Install instructions for LMTX on Linux are here:
>> https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Installation
>> 
>> 
>> It's pre-built so there are no make steps.
>> 
>> Try it and ask again if you have problems. :-)
>> 
>> —
>> Bruce Horrocks
>> Hampshire, UK

—
Bruce Horrocks
Hampshire, UK

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Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[amano.kenji via ntg-context]

From my perspective, a few optimizations for system installation need to happen 
for ConTeXt.

contextcnf.lua needs to support system installation paths.

Arch Linux texlive-core packages has its own patched version of texmfcnf.lua 
that sets TEXMFSYSVAR=/var/lib/texmf, TEXMFOS=/usr/share, 
TEXMFDIST=/usr/share/texmf-dist, and TEXMFSYSCONFIG=/etc/texmf.

TexLive's own version of texmfcnf.lua is not suitable for system-wide 
installation.

contexcnf.lua assumes all paths are relative to /path/to/extracted-archive 
which is definitely not a system-wide installation.

A system-wide installation is installed to absolute paths.

On top of that, there needs to be a document called INSTALLATION or BUILD that 
offers a simplified version of build/installation instructions contained in 
install.sh, mtx-install.lua, and mtxrun.lua. It seems mtxrun can be used to 
build and install ConTeXt without internet access as long as all dependencies 
are already present.

If ConTeXt is optimized for system-wide installation by modifying 
contextcnf.lua and adding INSTALL or BUILD, then all POSIX-like operating 
systems will be able to easily make packages for ConTeXt. Not just Gentoo Linux.

Can anyone help me with optimizing ConTeXt for system-wide installation?

--- Original Message ---
On Monday, August 15th, 2022 at 12:12 PM, Bruce Horrocks  
wrote:


> > On 15 Aug 2022, at 13:03, amano.kenji via ntg-context ntg-context@ntg.nl 
> > wrote:
> >
> > TexLive has texmfcnf.lua that doesn't really work with texlive-context 
> > installed by linux distributions.
> >
> > Arch Linux has its own patched version of texmfcnf.lua.
> >
> > It seems I'd be better off with a linux package for ConTeXt LMTX.
> >
> > How can I build and install ConTeXt LMTX on Gentoo Linux or any linux 
> > distribution?
> >
> > I wish it was as simple as ./configure, make, and make install.
>
>
> Install instructions for LMTX on Linux are here:
> https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Installation
>
>
> It's pre-built so there are no make steps.
>
> Try it and ask again if you have problems. :-)
>
> —
> Bruce Horrocks
> Hampshire, UK
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Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[amano.kenji via ntg-context]

I was trying to translate instructions in install.sh and dependencies of 
install.sh into shell commands in a Gentoo Linux package.

Gentoo Linux downloads all dependencies and builds a package in a network 
namespace where there is no internet access.

Thus, install.sh cannot be directly used in a gentoo linux package. I have to 
translate instructions used in install.sh into shell commands.

How can I do that? Can I somehow execute mtx-install.lua, mtxrun.lua, or mtxrun 
in a way that doesn't require internet access?

--- Original Message ---
On Monday, August 15th, 2022 at 12:12 PM, Bruce Horrocks  
wrote:


> > On 15 Aug 2022, at 13:03, amano.kenji via ntg-context ntg-context@ntg.nl 
> > wrote:
> >
> > TexLive has texmfcnf.lua that doesn't really work with texlive-context 
> > installed by linux distributions.
> >
> > Arch Linux has its own patched version of texmfcnf.lua.
> >
> > It seems I'd be better off with a linux package for ConTeXt LMTX.
> >
> > How can I build and install ConTeXt LMTX on Gentoo Linux or any linux 
> > distribution?
> >
> > I wish it was as simple as ./configure, make, and make install.
>
>
> Install instructions for LMTX on Linux are here:
> https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Installation
>
>
> It's pre-built so there are no make steps.
>
> Try it and ask again if you have problems. :-)
>
> —
> Bruce Horrocks
> Hampshire, UK
___
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the 
Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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wiki : https://contextgarden.net
___

Re: [NTG-context] How can I make a Gentoo Linux package for ConTeXt LMTX?

[Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context]

> On 15 Aug 2022, at 13:03, amano.kenji via ntg-context  
> wrote:
> 
> TexLive has texmfcnf.lua that doesn't really work with texlive-context 
> installed by linux distributions.
> 
> Arch Linux has its own patched version of texmfcnf.lua.
> 
> It seems I'd be better off with a linux package for ConTeXt LMTX.
> 
> How can I build and install ConTeXt LMTX on Gentoo Linux or any linux 
> distribution?
> 
> I wish it was as simple as ./configure, make, and make install.

Install instructions for LMTX on Linux are here:


It's pre-built so there are no make steps.

Try it and ask again if you have problems. :-)

—
Bruce Horrocks
Hampshire, UK

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wiki : https://contextgarden.net
___