Re: OODL: Re: Screen resolution and size
?! How hard is it to set the beginning end time channel? Really?! Or punch in a VCR Plus code? If it was just that ... but somehow the codes in the TV programme aren't the same our VCR expects, I always get the wrong times on the wrong channel, even though both claim to be "ShowView". Apart from that, the VCRs we have are very picky. The one that's reliable to program tends to pull out the tape of every n-th cassette and the one that doesn't pull it out refuses to record on mondays and every blue day ... Trust me, all the VCRs I have encountered so far were trying to be proof for Murphy's Law. Cheers, -- M. Uli Kusterer http://www.weblayout.com/witness 'The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere...'
Re: OODL: Re: Screen resolution and size
Anthony: I plan to see to it that FreeCard itself can run on anything, from embedded with displays of all sorts of odd geometries to console to your nice 21" to a multi-foot multiscreen. Alain: Yes, the application/interpreter should not have any impact on the GUI. They are un-related processes, or should be. Most programming methodologies make these two sub-systems modular. So we should too. Anthony: The GUI may not, but with a new UI stack it should. Alain: Yes, the GUI will be in the form of stacks for the most part. So screen-resolution is in the hands of those of us who will create the GUI stacks. Not just us developers, but our end-users too! [And actually, as soon as I get a gcc for it, I plan to have an Interpreter running on my TI-89] Alain: A programmable calculator? ;-) Alain: Embedded FreeCard in my VCR would be nice too! on recordFavoriteShow put "XFiles" into favoriteShow put getDateTime(favoriteShow) into timeSlot if the date - timeSlot 5 minutes then launch TV set the channel of TV to 3 launch VCR click at the loc of button "Record" end if end recordFavoriteShow __ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com
Re: OODL: Re: Screen resolution and size
At 11:21 AM -0700 on 4/8/00, Alain Farmer wrote: [And actually, as soon as I get a gcc for it, I plan to have an Interpreter running on my TI-89] Alain: A programmable calculator? ;-) What's so odd about that? It already is programmable, in TI-BASIC and M68K assembly -- why not FreeTalk? The 89 is neat, to say the least :) Alain: Embedded FreeCard in my VCR would be nice too! I think that would -- umm -- give new meaning to people not being able to program their VCR.
Re: Re: OODL: Re: Screen resolution and size
In a message dated 4/8/2000 2:28:41 AM, you wrote: [And actually, as soon as I get a gcc for it, I plan to have an Interpreter running on my TI-89] go to www.ticalc.org and build a link-cable for it. I built one for my TI-85, but unfortunately, they're PC only :-(
Re: OODL: Re: Screen resolution and size
Anthony: Ouch! Let's make a standard for FreeCard clear: It will work on 13" (640x480) monitors. Alain: I suggest a 14" (640x480). That is what I have standardized on for years now. This monitor size and resolution are by far the most commonly found. Smaller screens than this are dinosaurs (sorry Anthony). Hey! You insulted my monitor's feelings!
Re: OODL: Re: FreeCard Website
Adrian: I have one more request. Do you have an automated way to add the line:
?require("/footer.require")?
to each html file of the web site, just before the /BODY tag?
Adrian: I ask this because we really should put a link on the bottom to let
people contact the website administrator. By using the above line (which is
a php3 tag) we can easily change the footer later without changing every page.
Adrian: Oh, perhaps this isn't such a good idea. All the page names will need
to end in .php not .html If this is easy to do, then it's worth doing, but
don't go to too much effort to do it. It would be easier just to add the link
to the bottom.
Plugging `wget' (was Re: OODL: Re: FreeCard Website)
At 6:18 PM -0800 on 3/31/00, Alain Farmer wrote: Adrian: I am currently in the process of mirroring as much of the FreeCard website as I can to freecard.sourceforge.net ... I hope you have heard of `wget --mirror` Alain: I hope you started with the downloads and other non-web-site stuff. I have just finished adapting the links of the web site (e.g. to make them relative instead of absolute). It's a go, starting now. wget can even do that for you g. Forget the option, though. Adrian: ... as that pesky application/octet-stream bug is still a problem with the UFP server. wget can be told to ignore that.
Re: OODL: Re: FreeCard Website
At 11:15 PM +1000 on 4/1/00, Adrian Sutton wrote:
Adrian: I have one more request. Do you have an automated way to add
the line:
?require("/footer.require")?
to each html file of the web site, just before the /BODY tag?
Use a sed/mv combination on SourceForge's Unix login.
Re: OODL: Re: FreeCard Website
Adrian: Do you have an automated way to add the
line:
?require("/footer.require")?
to each html file of the web site, just before the
/BODY tag?
Alain: Yes. BBEdit.
Adrian: I ask this because we really should put
a link on the bottom to let people contact the
website administrator.
Alain: Good idea.
Adrian: By using the above line (which is
a php3 tag) we can easily change the footer later
without changing every page.
Alain: Good idea but it's not the only means of
achieving it. When web pages are generated on the fly
and/or in batch-mode, such global changes are a cinch
to implement.
Adrian: Oh, perhaps this isn't such a good idea.
All the page names will need to end in .php
not .html If this is easy to do, then it's worth
doing, but don't go to too much effort to do it.
Alain: All I have to do is drag-and-drop the opencard
folder on appleScript droplet that will rename all of
the files contained in the dropped folder.
Adrian: It would be easier just to add
the link to the bottom.
Alain: Whatever you wish, Adrian.
Tell me exactly what you want. :)
Keep up the good work, mate.
__
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com
Re: OODL: Re: FreeCard Website
On Sun, 02 Apr 2000, you wrote:
At 11:15 PM +1000 on 4/1/00, Adrian Sutton wrote:
Adrian: I have one more request. Do you have an automated way to add
the line:
?require("/footer.require")?
to each html file of the web site, just before the /BODY tag?
Use a sed/mv combination on SourceForge's Unix login.
Adrian: Good suggestion. I don't know sed though and can't seem to make it
work for me. Could you send me a sed script file that will insert
?require("/footer.require")? before /BODY? I can write a shell script to
change the filenames with mv.
Re: Plugging `wget' (was Re: OODL: Re: FreeCard Website)
On Sun, 02 Apr 2000, you wrote: At 6:18 PM -0800 on 3/31/00, Alain Farmer wrote: Adrian: I am currently in the process of mirroring as much of the FreeCard website as I can to freecard.sourceforge.net ... I hope you have heard of `wget --mirror` Adrian: Nope, and it's not the best solution anyway. I can use ftp -i and the mget * command. Much faster than going via HTTP and I get precisely the files I want. Besides, it's done now. Alain: I hope you started with the downloads and other non-web-site stuff. I have just finished adapting the links of the web site (e.g. to make them relative instead of absolute). It's a go, starting now. wget can even do that for you g. Forget the option, though. Adrian: Also done now anyway. Adrian: ... as that pesky application/octet-stream bug is still a problem with the UFP server. wget can be told to ignore that. Adrian: And ftp doesn't even see it. :)
Re: OODL: Re: [opencard-digest V1 #293]
Eric: I despair of ever getting any feedback on the work I have done on the gui. Alain: I understand and I sympathize with you, Eric, but unfortunately this lack-of-feedback is a chronic problem in our group. Several of Uli's contributions scarcely elicited more than a thank you. My first collaboration system was totally ignored, and the second one was highly criticized. I am confident that it is not a lack of consideration that makes us act so badly. For one thing, it's a division-of-labour thing. Anthony on the Interpreter, Uli on the file-format, me with the collab system, etc. One person can only do so much. In conclusion, I am sure that the main reasons why feedback is sorely lacking is due to a lack of members, and the lack of time of each one of these busy members. I have not gotten a single comment aside from 'well I do not like it' - with no explanation: the background of the properties icon should be white and its font should be chicago. Alain: It is often easier for people to tell you what they don't like, especially if they don't have any ideas to counter-propose. It's human nature too, you could say, to focus on the bad and take the good for granted. Sometimes we even express distaste for something without being able to express why. Shrug! Any way I would like to hear from people who have an opinion - it is not really fair to criticize the existing gui without offering constructive alternatives ... Alain: This is perhaps the crux of the problem, Eric. People are not commenting because commenting at length, and proposing constructive alternatives in particular, implies a lot of work ... work which should indeed be done by those who preoccupations are centered on the GUI. Conclusion: There just aren't enough participants whose are focused on the GUI. You can I suppose guess why I am not rushing to draft another partnership or license agreement. I do not like to waste my time drawing up projects to watch them gather dust (remember the partnership skeleton I circulated? Alain: As a matter of fact I do. My recollection is that we commented this thoroughly. Furthermore, even though no agreement was enshrined, we made a lot of progress in both these regards. Eric: I need feedback on the UI because there is no sense 'improving' something only to find out 'hey, on an IBM it looks like $41+.' Alain: What you need to do, Eric, is to find someone who will work in close collaboration with you, every day, so that you build upon each others ideas ... until such time that you have a coherent set of UI elements to demo. A little bit of this, a little bit of that, doesn't aptly convey your design philosophy. Eric: if you or Alain could upload the stacks I sent that would be really appreciated. Alain: You latest attachment "mctools" is corrupted all of a sudden. I don't know why. It was working yesterday. But I did check out some of your previous work. SEE my comments below. Alain: The hopefully constructive alternative that I propose, Eric, is that we try to achieve the same look feel as HyperCard. Same windows and dialogs. Same menus. Same everything. Then we proceed from this to evolve it into the HyperCard-compatible FC-GUI. My 2nd suggestion is that we encourage HyperCard list-members to test it, but only once we substantially have a HyperCard-like interface for them to try. - Variable Watcher stack: The window is too small. Why not display local and global variable at the same time? Two independently scrolled fields for varNames and varValues is not a good idea. The "?" and "!" and "p" are obtrusive. They should be grouped together into a popup or a menu. Field Properties stack: The header/box of the "Style" area masks part of tabs of the area above. The right edge of last tab is masked out. Why is "show border" checkbox boxed-in? The "Button ID" field is not relevant for fields. 12 radio buttons is far too many. It should be a popup instead. The organization of the "script" pane is pretty good. The Accelerators pane lacks balance/symmetry though. And, despite the apparent lack of space for another tab, the "Custom properties" stuff does not belong in the "Icons+" pane. Color scheme: Why yellow button on white bkgnd? The yellow background for toolTip fld is not pretty either. Why is the "font.." button dark-grey? Why is the "show name" checkbox green? Why is the "3D" checkbox blue? Why is the "lock location" checkbox in the "script" pane red? Why is the "script.." btn in the "script" pane blue? Why are the "Choose.." buttons in the "icons+" pane light-blue? I suggest as does Apple's "Human Interface Guidelines" that you prototype the GUI in black-and-white, then add colour with parsimony, strictly where it is justified. Miscellaneous: The icons viewer/navigator is pretty good, but a full window of many-icons-at-once is more useful and quicker than a one-by-one sequential approach. The "easel" stack is much too 'busy'. It has to breath more.
Re: OODL: Re: [opencard-digest V1 #293]
Any way I would like to hear from people who have an opinion - it is not really fair to criticize the existing gui without offering constructive alternatives; i am trying to offer such alternatives, but since I have no feedback - well, anyway, _I like it. Eric, I guess my message didn't get through. Since you didn't stuff the MetaCard stacks, I didn't get them in any usable format. They went through Eudora's text conversion, some 7-bit Unix servers and some other strange things that happen on internet and caused MetaCard to badly choke on them. If you could probably re-send a stuffed, binhexed or whatever-ized version that gets across OK, I wouldn't mind having a look at you. You can I suppose guess why I am not rushing to draft another partnership or license agreement - I do not like to waste my time drawing up projects to watch them gather dust (remember the partnership skeleton I circulated? So do I - it did get a couple comments, but I definitely have no sense of 'hey we _need an organisation to get anywhere' - anarchy is fine by me but I do need feedback on the UI because there is no sense 'improving' something only to find out 'hey, on an IBM it looks like $41+.' As to the lack of messages from the list -- there have been a good number in recent days, maybe you really _were_ unsubscribed somehow? To be on the safe side I'm CCing this message to your address. Uli had mentioned helping with the cross platform aspects - and if you or alain could upload the stacks I sent (which have new menus which work and submenus which are skeletal because I have no license) that would be really appreciated. Although I got a full version of MC once, I doubt I'll be able to help much with submenus -- my version is a pre-submenus variant of MetaCard :-( Cheers, -- M. Uli Kusterer http://www.weblayout.com/witness 'The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere...'
Re: OODL: Re: [opencard-digest V1 #293]
Uli: ... you didn't stuff the MetaCard stacks, so I didn't get them in any usable format. Alain: I got a stuffed/binhexed version, but the stacks were not recognized by the MetaCard application, and thus could not be opened. Uli: They went through Eudora's text conversion, some 7-bit Unix servers and some other strange things that happen on internet ... Alain: In my case, the file's Creator and Type were the culprit. The Creator of MetaCard's stacks is "MSTK", and the Type of MetaCard's stacks is "MCRD". The Creator of Eric's stacks was "TEXT", and the Type of Eric's stacks was "". Uli: ... and caused MetaCard to badly choke on them. If you could probably re-send a stuffed, binhexed or whatever-ized version that gets across OK, I wouldn't mind having a look at you. Alain: Eric, do not bother yourself with the stuffing or any whatever-izing of your MetaCard GUI work. I have converted the file Creator and Type of each one of your stacks to the correct ones. Furthermore, I have stuffed and binhexed the stacks for you. Here they are for anyone wishing to see/comment on Eric's stacks: http://ufp.uqam.ca/freecard/EricStacks.sit.hqx Alain: Next step for me = Look at Eric's stacks. __ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com
Re: OODL: Re: FreeCard Website
On Sat, 01 Apr 2000, you wrote: Adrian: I am currently in the process of mirroring as much of the FreeCard website as I can to freecard.sourceforge.net ... Alain: I hope you started with the downloads and other non-web-site stuff. I have just finished adapting the links of the web site (e.g. to make them relative instead of absolute). It's a go, starting now. Nope. I'm currently concerned with the web site. Downloads will go to the FTP server. I'll get to that soon. :) Adrian: How likely is it to work if I just download the HTML files from UFP and put them on SourceForge? Alain: Very likely. Adrian: Are all the links relative? Alain: They are now. Adrian: I have just instructed freecard.sourceforge.net to grab everything in the /opencard/WebSite folder on the UFP server. You're ftp logs should be going crazy right about now. :) After this I'll grab the main index page and then the FreeCard log. Adrian: I will obviously keep the directory structure from the UFP server. Alain: You mean the directory structure of the opencard/freecard site, correct? The "UFP" folder is distinct from these, as are all of the other elements in the root-folder. All of the latter do not belong elsewhere than here. Only copy the "opencard" folder. Adrian: Yes, from inside the opencard folder. I'm mirroring bit by bit though, we'll perform a check to see that I've got it all once I'm done. :)
Re: OODL: Re: FreeCard Website problem
Alain: Either way, NetPresenz really sucks when it comes to configuring it. For one thing, the mail-server never ever worked. That's water under the bridge, eh! But its configuration-suckiness does not stop there. Our current problem with MIME-types is usually an extremely easy problem to fix, but NetPresenz does not seem to provide any facility whatsoever to deal with the MIME-types. Go figure?? Adrian: Perhaps it's a setting in the Internet control panel. It has mime types there and NetPresenz seems to use the Mac settings as much as possible (ie file sharing for permissions). Alain: Bottom-line = I am going to switch to something else for my G3-server. I haven't found any other free FTP server, but as I have mentioned a few times Quid Pro Quo will do HTTP and is free. Of course, I am just about to put in our application for space on sourceforge so that may be the other solution. Adrian Sutton ** Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Ph: 3714 4649 There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. -- Mark Twain. **
Re: OODL: Re: FreeCard Website problem
Adrian: Perhaps it's a setting in the Internet control panel. It has mime types there and NetPresenz seems to use the Mac settings as much as possible. Alain: Good idea, but it didn't work. By the way, these MIME prefs are actually kept by InternetConfig, not by the Internet cdev. I haven't found any other free FTP server ... Alain: That's a little bit surprising. as I have mentioned a few times Quid Pro Quo will do HTTP and is free. Alain: I have not begun to consider the alternatives yet. I only know that NetPresenz as it is installed now does not cut it. Of course, I am just about to put in our application for space on sourceforge so that may be the other solution. Alain: The timing could not be better, since I have to wait for a viable alternative to my server to be up-and-running before I attempt so radical moves with my server software. Disruptions guaranteed! __ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com
Re: OODL: Re: FreeCard Website problem
At 12:59 PM +0200 on 3/27/00, M. Uli Kusterer wrote: Alain, it's simple: Netscape does as it's supposed to and uses the MIME types to identify files, why IE goes by the suffixes. The bug in Netscape fixes the I think you mean IE here. glitch in your server's MIME settings. BTW: The headers are: HTTP/1.1 200 OK Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 05:20:58 GMT Server: NetPresenz/4.1 Content-Type: application/octet-stream Last-Modified: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 18:26:08 GMT Age: 3248 Connection: close Via: HTTP/1.1 cluster.lnh.md (Traffic-Server/3.0.3 [uScMsSfWpSeN:t c Mi p sS]) A normal one looks like (from Uli's FreeCard page): HTTP/1.1 200 OK Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 06:10:22 GMT Server: Apache/1.3.12 (Unix) Last-Modified: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 15:38:18 GMT Etag: "5a8e7-284f-38df806a" Accept-Ranges: Bytes Content-Length: 10319 Content-Type: text/html Age: 0 Connection: close Via: HTTP/1.1 cluster.lnh.md (Traffic-Server/3.0.3 [uScMsSfWpSeN:t c Mi p sS]) Notice the Content-type: header. Your server says it's a binary for downloading, while Uli's says it's a webpage. iCab won't display it either.
Re: OODL: Re: FreeCard Website problem
Adrian: Netscape seems to think that the HTML pages on the FreeCard Website are of type "application/octet-stream" and so won't display them. Alain: I have the same problem with Netscape, but everything is fine with MS-Explorer. Go figure?? Alain: This is somewhat 'heretical' because I swear off MS products as a rule, but their web browser is actually quite good. From recent experience, Explorer is better and simpler than Netscape's offering. Adrian: Could you check the MIME type settings in the server? Alain: If this was really the case, then why do the web pages work fine with Explorer? Alain, it's simple: Netscape does as it's supposed to and uses the MIME types to identify files, why IE goes by the suffixes. The bug in Netscape fixes the glitch in your server's MIME settings. Cheers, -- M. Uli Kusterer http://www.weblayout.com/witness 'The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere...'
Re: OODL: Re: More license talk -- progressing
They've missed a very important thing: FreeCard does not act like a compiler. It isn't a compiler. It's like the Perl interpreter, exceppt that the standalone is a combination of the interpreter, lots of support stuff, and the script in one file.
Re: OODL: Re: More license talk -- progressing
Hi, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They've missed a very important thing: FreeCard does not act like a compiler. It isn't a compiler. It's like the Perl interpreter, exceppt that the standalone is a combination of the interpreter, lots of support stuff, and the script in one file. Sorry. Please explain in more detail They is who? And, there was mention of the likeness to Perl on the web page I posted. http://www.FreeTEAM.Org/freecard/license-talk.html So, did you see this page link above? Is there still a distinction? And, as for the OUTCOME -- what does that mean. What do you suggest then, and why? - - - - - - - - - Boy I wish we had a LICENSE LIST just to talk about the license stuff. I hate to slow down all of you others who are NOT into reading about these issues. - - - - - - - - - Mark Rauterkus [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OODL: Re: [opencard-digest V1 #266]
At 5:29 PM +0100 on 3/11/00, M. Uli Kusterer wrote: Render larger, shrink on copy. Avoids pixelization. Anthony, at small sizes it doesn't. Then you'd just have a irregular black bar if you're unlucky. Playing with text that small by any method can easily give you a mess. For small text, we can play with intercharacter and word spacing. It's been updated in the meantime. Parts of it. CopyBits is pretty fast actually, it's just very generic, which means if we can make certain assumptions we can write something that's a bit faster than CopyBits (e.g. if we can be sure the palettes are the same, we can leave out the color palette conversion code). Or slower, because we don't get the hardware acceleration.
Re: OODL: Re: [opencard-digest V1 #266]
Render larger, shrink on copy. Avoids pixelization. Anthony, at small sizes it doesn't. Then you'd just have a irregular black bar if you're unlucky. If there is no scaling copybits, we'd probably be writing one anyway. It's not that hard to do one. And beating CopyBit's is not that hard either, since the CopyBits algorithms was designed for black and white on processors that are now used in my graphics calculator :) It's been updated in the meantime. CopyBits is pretty fast actually, it's just very generic, which means if we can make certain assumptions we can write something that's a bit faster than CopyBits (e.g. if we can be sure the palettes are the same, we can leave out the color palette conversion code). Cheers, -- M. Uli Kusterer http://www.weblayout.com/witness 'The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere...'
Re: OODL: Re: [opencard-digest V1 #266]
At 1:50 PM +0100 on 3/5/00, M. Uli Kusterer wrote: BTW: I noticed something neat -- X on Unix allows reals for the number of points in a font. Hmmm... Anthony, just reminds me that I have code to draw text in a box. That is, scaled to exactly fit into the box, stretched and skewed as necessary. Do other platforms allow this, too? Does not matter --- we can fake it if they don't.
Re: OODL: Re: [opencard-digest V1 #266]
Does not matter --- we can fake it if they don't. Anthony, I'm not so sure... on the Mac it depends on mucking around with the numer and denom parameters to StdText() and such things ... it really would need to be supported by these other platforms, or we might get ugly pixelized text (and don't forget printing). And finally, I might be mistaken, but some platforms don't support scaling images that are copied using their equivalent to CopyBits(). I think there were some Unix dialects, maybe even Linux, which means faking this might really get hard. Cheers, -- M. Uli Kusterer http://www.weblayout.com/witness 'The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere...'
Re: OODL: Re: [opencard-digest V1 #266]
BTW: I noticed something neat -- X on Unix allows reals for the number of points in a font. Hmmm... Anthony, just reminds me that I have code to draw text in a box. That is, scaled to exactly fit into the box, stretched and skewed as necessary. Do other platforms allow this, too? This would ease substitution a bit as we could just force characters to be a certain height or width. It might look a bit ugly with small fonts and won't stay true to the font's original look, but at least stacks would remain viewable even with some fonts missing. Cheers, -- M. Uli Kusterer http://www.weblayout.com/witness 'The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere...'
Re: OODL: Re: [opencard-digest V1 #266]
At 12:42 PM -0800 on 2/28/00, Alain Farmer wrote: Eric: I'm going to have to continue my UI paper after hearing this. Drat. Was hoping to avoid it... Alain: Does your paper deal mainly with aesthetics, or is it focused on the knowledge-engineering aspects of GUI design? (ergonomie cognitive). The latter is what interests me the most. It deals with usability and aesthetics. It's not a research paper or anything, just more 'this is what I think, and why'. Calling it an essay would perhaps be more appropriate. Alain: The OpenDoc answer to this question was really wild. The active components of the interface negotiate the actual output .. among themselves. An agent-based distributed-computing approach (new paradigm) that held tremendous potential .. but was unfortunately Steved in the Dark Years. That would be an interesting way to do it. Anyone have some OpenDoc docs lying around? Eric: In principal, I agree that a solution would be to test for the platform and then set the button fonts appropriately. Alain: Ouch! A testing nightmare. The combinations and permutations are numerous, perhaps even infinite. Not so bad when the testing can be done automaticly. Consider the following font description: Line height (maximal) is 16pts == 16/72in. == 2/9in. Line height (upercase maximal) is 12pts == 12/72in. == 1/6in. Width of string is 232pt == 3.5in Font name is MadeUpFont = Class is Serif An automated search can be performed with minimal built-in knowledge (font class) to find an appropriate font. It may not be the "correct" font, but it'll work. A user preference would determine if screen resolution is taken into account -- if not, assume 72ppi, so 1pt == 1 pixel. Alain: Millimeters is a universal unit in desktop publishing!!! I don't think so. Never said it was. But it's a universal unit everywhere except America. While their units and other terminology might seem arcane to us, I think that we should NOT under-estimate the usefulness of doing things the way typographers do them when it comes to handling fonts. How about letting people do it as they please: You may enter sizes in the unit of your choice. Even lightyears, if you happen to like decimals a lot g. Internally, I guess we'd probably store it as the OS's expect it -- points.
Re: OODL: Re: [opencard-digest V1 #266]
At 3:06 AM -0700 on 2/28/00, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm going to have to continue my UI paper after hearing this. Drat. Was hoping to avoid it... --PLEASE tell me what you want then - you would be far more likely to get it because I cannot read minds. That's what my UI paper is. It's rather long, already -- and nowhere near done. --Very Clever. Still does not get around the fact that the buttons will either have to be over sized to contain the text (not a serious problem but not aesthetically pleasing) or ... variable geometry... I think doing a variable geometry on the buttons would slow down the interface though I could be wrong. No, it does get around that. You use simularly-size fonts on each platform. If you need to use 11pt on on platform and 12pt on another, fine. --In principal, I agree that a solution would be to test for the platform and then set the button fonts appropriately. --I shall experiment with your idea which I do like Then, let's not do our sizes in some silly unit. We'll do them in PostScript points (like the Mac) and do any necissary conversions. Or maybe we should store them in something even more universal: milimeters. We also have size names, which can be either "relative" or "absolute". Relative means that it is based on the intended use (e.g., all the tv ones would be much bigger; print ones smaller) or absolute (it's 14pt everywhere). These could be: --Scott pretty clearly wants 14 point. I favor 12. And I favor 12, 10, or 9, depending on the font. The relative ones take into account the relative size of a font; Times 9 is a lot smaller than MPW 9. Courier is smaller than Monaco. Geneva is bigger than just about anything, etc. They can also take into account user preference -- a farsighted use may use Geneva 24, while you(?) and I happily stare at Geneva 12 (and, in my case, think 'dang that's huge type!'). --Finally one potential difficulty: Some one who has access to Unix, Windows and Mac has to verify that the thing actually looks good when finished. I can verify it on Linux/PPC and probably Winhell '95.
Re: OODL: Re: [opencard-digest V1 #267]
Eric: (do _you really want to chase down _every link and change its style? Manually? I do not, though a script could probably be written to do it). Alain: Syntax coloring and such is usually a scripted process, as it should be. Nothing stopping you from doing this manually, but I feel that life is too short for such mundane tasks. That's what computers were originally designed for, eh! Eric: ... the aesthetics are an aspect of the GUI that metaCard expects to get in exchange for its support of this project. Alain: If you are saying that Scott chose to participate in FreeCard for the purpose of improving the GUI and thus improve MetaCard's success in the market-place, then I agree with you. But that is where it stops. We do NOT OWE Scott or MetaCard anything whatsoever, except perhaps our gratitude. The rest is a gamble that we all share in, as individuals with mutual interests working towards a common goal. Eric: Function determines form, but within function paramaters form should be aesthetically pleasing ... MC places function over form which is good, but there is plenty of room within functional parameters for improvement. Alain: I tend to agree with you, Eric, that function precedes and is more important than form. But I have just completed a Masters in Interactive Multimedia surrounded by artistic-types that would argue precisely the contrary, adding that that is why computer stuff is so drab, dweeby, un-artistic, etc. Case in point: MC. Eric: MetaCard's demo is really generous and deserves to be supported. Alain: I have also been pleasantly surprised at how generous and easy-going Scott has been. It is a sincere pleasure to have him aboard on this open-source xCard adventure. Eric: I have developed new menus. They work nicely (amazing what can be done with the DO command). Alain: Aha! The infamous DO command at work. Eric: ...adding submenus (lineSize, polySides)... Alain: Sub-menus would indeed be nice, for stuff like: fontSize, fontFace, lineSize, etc. It groups together related things and makes the interface less cluttered. But please make the sub-menus only one level deep. Eric: However adding submenus (lineSize, polySides) would, i think, require more than 10 lines. Alain: It was my understanding that once we got the organisation and licencing issues worked out, that Scott was going to provide us with a special licence on the full-fledged version of MetaCard (e.g. no 10-line limit) Eric: The new menus ... I would also like to move some menuItems within existing menus ... Alain: This may be a stupid question but here goes. Are you aiming for something quite similar to the current HyperCard interface, or a better-looking variation on MetaCard's current GUI, or are you aiming for something radically different? I have no well-formed opinion on this matter yet, except to say that the latter 2 options might make us stray far away from what HyperCard users will expect from a HyperCard-clone. Alain: ... but I lost the list. Eric: do you have a find function? :) Alain: The list was scribbled on a piece of paper that used to adorn the billboard over my desk. Alain: And the situation has perhaps changed since the lost-list was made. Alain: Besides, my above statement goes much more to the heart of the matter. The old list, even if I still had it, might not be relevant anymore. Alain: (re-reading my own message, I realized that I had not completed my thought). Eric: think first then write? thimk? Alain: I systematically re-read each part of my letters, while I am composing it (in-situo), and afterwards too (globally) once my message is composed. I make sure that I have responded to every item that I wanted to respond to, as evidenced by my infamous habit of chopping up posts and prefixing them with the interlocutor's name. And I also screen out typos and grammatical errors - my own mostly. Alain: But no one is perfect, eh! In my defense, I caught it myself immediately after I committed the omission. ;-) __ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com
Re: OODL: Re: [opencard-digest V1 #267]
--No. MetaCard uses bold to indicate hypertext links. Since the WWW standard is to underline and change the color of links this standard is in fact a bad idea. But I am not going to argue it (do _you really want to chase down _every link and change its style? Manually? I do not, though a script could probably be written to do it). Eric, no need to care about this. Just use the bold version for our UI. FreeCard will inherit HyperCard's "group" style for links anyway. If we add links, we underline them. When Scott and his folks use our UI they will themselves be able to choose whether they want to adapt their parts to use underlined links or ours to use bold ones. And anyway, I guess one could also do this using a script. It would take a night's processing to have this script scan the help stack, but I guess it'd work. --Actually, the aesthetics are an aspect of the GUI that metaCard expects to get in exchange for its support of this project. Function determines form, but within function paramaters form should be aesthetically pleasing. Basically the Italians (see FIAT - fix it again tony) bought McLuhans BS that form defines function. Load of expletive. MC places function over form which is good, but there is plenty of room within functional parameters for improvement. MetaCard's demo is really generous and deserves to be supported. Heh :-) You're not talking about the demo stacks ... :-) Seriously, the things you're doing currently within the constraints of the MC starter kit are nothing you wouldn't have been able to do without Scott's offer. You didn't receive a free licence yet. We just won't be able to just convert their editing environment to FreeCard format, but we can certainly copy over the scripts you wrote, and we can use the layout and design ideas you came up with. So, so far we're not yet in MC's debt in this regard. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't mind handing over the MC prototype UI for FreeCard to Scott so they can use it to improve MC. I think MC and FC have a very sane relationship. FC will always be "programming for the rest of us", while people who want to do 100% professional stuff, the ones that want to be programmers anyway, the geeks if you will, I would still refer to MC. They get their money's worth there. It's just that "the rest of us" usually can't afford that. But I feel a little safer if we're not required to produce a working MC UI, as FC's UI will probably be enough work already. --Regarding menus i have developed new menus. They work nicely (amazing what can be dones with the DO command). However adding submenus (lineSize, polySides) would, i think, require more than 10 lines. The new menus are "Go" (because navigation takes up a lot of menu bar) "Objects" and "Drawing". I would also like to move some menuItems within existing menus but script license limits are problematic for making major changes to the menuBar. Did you try this? In MC you can just add the menu items to the buttons' contents. Making them work could be done by scripting: on menupick mitem if mitem = "Quit" then -- do it else send "menupick" quote mitem quote to btn "firstmenuhandler" end if end menupick I think something like that would work. This way you could handle about 3 menu items per object, I guess that would work, even though it'd be a hassle to write. I guess MC doesn't support the menuMessage ... BTW - your progress on menus sounds great. Can't wait to se it. Cheers, -- M. Uli Kusterer http://www.weblayout.com/witness 'The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere...'
Re: OODL: Re: [opencard-digest V1 #265]
Um, well, MetaCard error dialogue already lets the user choose to edit the script. In other words, I think it's fine. Givin the user the choice is very good. The error dialog also tells the user line and character. And if the user still has an error when the script is saved the script (unlike HC) will refuse to save till the error is corrected. Eric, I had forgotten that it does. However, I like HC's approach of displaying the errors one after the other as it's not as demotivating as being presented a list of 50 or so errors of which 48 are only a result of the first two. The errors it reports when a script editor is closed are parse-time errors. That is, errors where unsupported commands are used. However, there are more errors to follow at runtime (i.e. you'll rarely see a "can't divide by string" error message when you close the script editor window if you're dividing by a variable). I think it gives users a false sense of security if they get error messages when they close a script editor. But really, it's a matter of personal preference. Does MC now ask whether users want to save the script when you changed it? 2.2 didn't do that. This is one example of what I think is the real 'problem' of the MC interface: its sort of clunky because 1) the icons are primitive. Sorry they are. I fully agree. Most of them look like I had sat down and just swung the pencil a few times w/o a fatbits view etc. like the drawings I did on my first day with HC, just plus a few splashes of color. 2) The font, to be UNIVERSAL, is helvetica, a sort of wimpy font which _is difficult to read on a grey background even at 14 Point (which I think is too large even for a 19" monitor - not that I work in a graphic arts school - oh, wait a minute, I do). We could at least use the "bold" style by default, I guess? 3) The buttons are a little oversize because they display 14 point characters and they have to be cross platform compatible. Yup. Other than that I think the MC interface is just fine. Ok, some more menus would be nice, neater palettes, and again these are just cosmetic changes. The _only serious default of the MC interface in terms of programming is that the position of the script buttons is not uniform and thus difficult to find for novice scripters. Fortunately command-alt double click opens any objects script dialogue (a fact which should be but is not documented). Oh, and the icon chooser displays 100+ icons and so is a little slow, even on modern equipment (its glacial on mine but I've developped a work around). So, in my opinion real change on the MC interface should focus on aesthetic aspects. Maybe it's a terminology problem. Most of the above paragraph's statements sound more like conceptual mistakes by my definition of the word. Menu items and menus have to be arranged to allow being productive. That is, frequently used features should have their own menu item while rarely used ones may be hidden in a dialog etc. Button locations are also conceptual problems, not "just aesthetic". In my definition, when developing a UI "just aesthetic" issues are whether to use green or blue to highlight a certain button etc. User Interface design is very much aesthetics by definition. But I think on most parts you think the same as I in this regard, we just use different words. Really, I have done quite a bit of scripting on the interface. It is not exactly the same as HC but it is very similar. It takes about a week to make the transition. And it is cross platform. We don't necessarily need to be 100% HC with the UI, although it might help to stay close. So, I do not plan to redo the script dialogue (execution error) because it does already give the user the option to script (for serious errors) and does even say which line and which character are the error. That's right. No need to do this, I just remembered it wrongly. What fonts are available cross platform? Arial, helvetic, courier, AND? Times, but I think "Times Roman" and Apple's "Times" are a bit different. But Internet Exploder comes with "Times Roman", so I guess you could use it, too. Sorry for ranting, but while MC's icons are 'limited' the engine is superb. I do not subscribe to the italian school of design (who cares whether it works as long as it looks pretty). My design philosophy is more russian (da, uggly. Works.) No need to fiddle around with unnecessary details (I don't expect you to make every dialog window have bondi-blue corners, it might look cool but it's unnecessary), however, I think MetaCard's menus really might profit from being reworked. Cheers, -- M. Uli Kusterer http://www.weblayout.com/witness 'The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere...'
Re: OODL: Re: [opencard-digest V1 #264]
I still need to know a list of cross platform fonts. So far I have chicago, arial and helvetica. What other fonts are available on all systems? Eric, Chicago is standard on Mac, however it's Apple-only. Few Windows or Linux users will have it. Cheers, -- M. Uli Kusterer http://www.weblayout.com/witness 'The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere...'
A Proposal on Fonts and Sizes (was Re: OODL: Re:[opencard-digest V1 #265])
At 12:32 PM -0700 on 2/25/00, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Other than that I think the MC interface is just fine. Ok, some more menus would be nice, neater palettes, and again these are just cosmetic changes. I'm going to have to continue my UI paper after hearing this. Drat. Was hoping to avoid it... SO my real question is What fonts are available cross platform? I'll look at what I have under linux/ppc. However, I thinkthe best approach is to be able to use a descriptor for fonts, not the actual font name, for cross-platform work. Example: serif sansserif monospaced proportional handwritten cursive default (default for the intended use, see below) Next we can tack on intended use: print screen television (e.g., for presentations) Then, let's not do our sizes in some silly unit. We'll do them in PostScript points (like the Mac) and do any necissary conversions. Or maybe we should store them in something even more universal: milimeters. We also have size names, which can be either "relative" or "absolute". Relative means that it is based on the intended use (e.g., all the tv ones would be much bigger; print ones smaller) or absolute (it's 14pt everywhere). These could be: [absolute|relative-]fine-- note: default is relative [absolute|relative-]small [absolute|relative-]normal [absolute|relative-]large [absolute|relative-]giant [absolute|relative-]banner So a complete font specification could be: Font: sansserif-screen; Size: normal The engine through the help of the Home stack would translate these into real font names, based upon what looks good on that platform.
Re: OODL: Re: Open source hosting - Second installment
At 11:41 AM -0500 on 2/22/00, Mark Rauterkus wrote: Yes, we should move our core efforts to SourceForge or some other outlet like that. But, I see no need to shop around. Huh? Moving it around -- especially after people start to know about the site, bookmark to it, etc. -- would be a major PITA. We should make the right decision, not just jump aboard because it looks cool. Perhaps there is something better out there? Maybe someone who will donate more than sourceforge does to us? Maybe there is someone who will be more helpfull. Sourceforge won't do some of the cool things we wanted. Will someone else? Maybe some ISP would even donate resources to help an OS project (no doubt for the good PR, but still a good deal for us).
Re: OODL: Re:
At 10:54 PM +0100 on 2/20/00, M. Uli Kusterer wrote: KUTGW. Pardon? Keep up the good work ^^ ^ ^^
Re: OODL: Re:
At 2:20 AM +0100 on 2/19/00, M. Uli Kusterer wrote: Oh yeh... that's right. Die R/B tree, die! :) Anthony, you wouldn't guess who I met at the funeral ... Multimap! KUTGW.
Re: OODL: Re: R/B trees
Not that I mind seeing them go, but what was so bad about R/B trees and multimaps? They are pretty standard, well-tested stuff and they are fast. No, multimap was a guest. So to say the person who's just been waiting to take over R/B tree's job. Cheers, -- M. Uli Kusterer http://www.weblayout.com/witness 'The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere...'
Re: OODL: Re: [opencard-digest V1 #253]
I don't think we have one. Especially since "international" usually implies that people from all over the world meet in this one same place, right? Yes, international usually means that. But they have sub-regionals and regionals first, and then the winners go on to the international one (Detroit, this year).
Re: OODL: Re:
Oh yeh... that's right. Die R/B tree, die! :) Anthony, you wouldn't guess who I met at the funeral ... Multimap! I haven't really tried it much. I'll look into it once we have a release. Maybe by then we'll also have some more people with experiance in such things. But right now, it's not such a big deal. We can make an exporter stack. X-actleee! Cheers, -- M. Uli Kusterer http://www.weblayout.com/witness 'The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere...'
Re: OODL: Re: [opencard-digest V1 #253]
At 2:29 PM +0100 on 2/17/00, M. Uli Kusterer wrote: Agreed. Wonder how mad the ISEF will get that I didn't give them a social "security" number? Do they have an ISEF in Germany? Dunno. What is ISEF? incredibly stupid e-mail faults? International Science and Engineering Fair
Re: OODL: Re: [opencard-digest V1 #253]
Agreed. Wonder how mad the ISEF will get that I didn't give them a social "security" number? Do they have an ISEF in Germany? Dunno. What is ISEF? incredibly stupid e-mail faults? Cheers, -- M. Uli Kusterer http://www.weblayout.com/witness 'The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere...'
Re: OODL: Re:
Hmmm... what's wrong with the red/black tree? Why not fix it? Never saw any problems in the XBF testers. Hi, the code to delete an entry is buggy (no wonder, I wrote it without knowing anything about R/B trees!). As map and multimap are usually implemented as R/B trees, too, I'll just use a multimap, which should also solve porting problems (R/B tree was the piece of code that caused the problems when compiling XBF for MPW, remember?). Probably not -- it'd just take some serious time, which we don't seem to have now. It's a feature once we get FreeCard working. Certainly. But I don't think I'm going to do it. I tried for two weeks and then I decided it wasn't worth the effort. OK, that was a couple of years ago, so maybe someone with more knowledge than I had then and enough time could get it sorted out. Cheers, -- M. Uli Kusterer http://www.weblayout.com/witness 'The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere...'
Re: OODL: Re: [opencard-digest V1 #253]
At 11:12 AM -0700 on 2/15/00, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: lessee... where was i. Oh Yeah... arm a geddon. Isn't that one word? Get some sleep, Eric. Well, yesterdays hak was in my opinion bigger in effect than Ynot2k... What hack? I haven't heard anything -- let me check NANOG. Don't see anything. Not Excite. Maybe bugtraq? Nope. What's happening? Speaking of evil... what do people think of java script or java (and i know there is some arcane difference between them but do not yet know what it is). More than an arcane difference -- they're completely different languages. Personally i think it is probably hackers heaven. Yep. Reason for my enquiry is - since I know C i am thinking of plunging into hot boiling sugary(?) oil... and want to know whether i should bother (absence ofpointers seems like a drawback) Bother with JS or Java? Hmm... why not? I'm goign to sometime.
Re: OODL: Re:
At 12:07 AM +0100 on 2/16/00, M. Uli Kusterer wrote: I think we'll do differently. For now, stick with MetaCard. When I have the file format working (due to bugs in the red/black tree I have to use a multimap instead which requires a couple of code changes) Hmmm... what's wrong with the red/black tree? Why not fix it? Never saw any problems in the XBF testers. Figuring out the HC file format is beyond our heads right now, I think. Probably not -- it'd just take some serious time, which we don't seem to have now. It's a feature once we get FreeCard working.
Re: OODL: Re: [opencard-digest V1 #253]
What else is happening? The colorized tab stops look good. Trust me, you WON'T have difficulty finding your scripts (using the tooltip to say 'hey, click on the control (apple) alt and double click to open the script !' Really i think Hi, what exactly are you doing with tab stops and color ? the tab stops are not inherently bad i actually like them especially when working on multiple items (i.e. i want to set all my check boxes to showBorder = True - easier with tab stops since i call the window once and then click it X times.) You're not giving all check boxes a border, right? It will still look nice MacOS-like, right? I don't really understand what tab stops you're talking about? The tabbing order of fields? Cheers, -- M. Uli Kusterer http://www.weblayout.com/witness 'The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere...'
Re: OODL: Re: [opencard-digest V1 #253]
Am working around the script limitations for the menubars by naming menuitems commands (which i think is good - reinforces script syntax for newbies) and DO but as i understand DO is an _evil (time consuming) command so we shall see... Eric, you're sounding the way my head feels right now. Could you re-phrase this? I don't understand it (might be my brains though. If you think it's obvious wait until tomorrow by which time my head should be clearer). Reason for my enquiry is - since I know C i am thinking of plunging into hot boiling sugary(?) oil... and want to know whether i should bother (absence ofpointers seems like a drawback) What's so bad with C that you want to learn Java? Learn C++ and you'll get a free "job" offer to write a FreeCard component :-) Oh, i am still paranoid about the message service and do not presume the hackattack is over. So, MORE FOLLOWS... Heck, Paranoia saved all my e-mails from being eaten by the big bad Eudora demo version bug -- it's a good thing, cultivate it! Cheers, -- M. Uli Kusterer http://www.weblayout.com/witness 'The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere...'
Re: OODL: Re: Collaboration Infrastructure READY
At 10:06 AM -0800 on 2/12/00, Alain Farmer wrote: Uli: 1) It uses JavaScript. I'm paranoid. Alain: Security-wise, JavaScript is no worse than other languages, it seems to me. The most recent incarnation of JS has been overhauled in terms of security. Which is good, I am sure, but which caused me many headaches this year. I've lost count of how many JS security holes there have been last year, from stealing credit card numbers to faking which site you're looking at. Uli: Would it be possible to change the navigation to use regular HTML? Alain: I endeavour to be as flexible as possible but, in this case, I cannot compromise at all. While my system is 80% server-side, and the 20% client-side JavaScript that I do use is limited in scope to the fundamentals ... without JavaScript, the whole solution falls apart. What does the JavaScript do? It activates a simple form. Some reason why clicking the nagigation images can't do that? I've got problems besides just letting unknown parties execute code on my machine -- 3 of the 4 browsers I use don't support JavaScript. Uli: Also, I don't get anything in the bottom frame. Alain: That frame was intentionally empty. Please remove it. It makes it need to scroll on my 13" monitor.
Re: OODL: Re: [opencard-digest V1 #249]
I think that both these tools are really nice for complicated development. True mc 'precompiles' (or whatever) scripts so that it is tougher to make a programming error than in hc, but script errors do happen, and it is really nice to be able to watch global variables. hmm, come to think of it i maybe could do a script for a variable watcher stack... but how would we do a message watcher? Ideally both would be in xTalk rather than in C because XCMD's are not cross platform. (incidently cross worlds has some demo xcmd's which are both windows and macos compatible...) Eric, this is a tough point. I think we'll certainly add support for message variable watchers implemented using scripts somewhere down the line. But it needs to be supported by the engine, e.g. by having it automatically open up a stack and send a message to it resp. send a message to a certain stack if it's open. Who wants can create some within the constraints of MetaCard's engine for now, as we'll certainly try to support as much of their syntax as feasible. Otherwise progress on improving graphic aspects of the gui continues. Please look at the proposed properties stack? (I hope/presume it was uploaded?) There is a uniform coloring and position scheme so I think that it will be easier to find the buttons... As I already e-mailed you, I couldn't run it, it was mingled during transfer since it wasn't compacted (probably conversion to 7-bit ascii or automatic line-wrapping). I have to admit I have yet to see a use of colors that I don't find too toy-like. If you use colors, you might want to make sure they're not too bright, or "loud". Oh, the computer lab is open ! am happy. Let us rejoice with brother Eric :-)) Cheers, -- M. Uli Kusterer http://www.weblayout.com/witness 'The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere...'
Re: OODL: Re html to text
At 10:30 AM -0800 on 2/6/00, Alain Farmer wrote: matteob: there's a external res to convert html to Alain: I am going to re-launch the UFP again. We are a group of veteran scripters who want to make HyperCard into an even-better Rapid Application Development (RAD) tool than it already is, by providing newbie scripters with a coherent set of pre-scripted handlers and value-added stack-based solutions. Simplicity is next to Godliness! ;-) Simplicity?! How about making the mission statement a little simpler: To make HyperCard a better RAD tool by creating utility functions and stacks.
Re: OODL: Re: Dang it, you're barking up the wrong tree! (was:Re: OODL: Stacks on the Web)
Oh. I got the impression you were from the questions on optimizing chunks. No, I mainly asked those since I'll need chunks in joker, too, and I thought we both might profit from sharing our past experiences in that regard. Thankyou for the offer. I'll see if there is anything I can use once I get the chance to work on NuParser NuInterpreter again. Hope it'll be soon :-) Cheers, -- M. Uli Kusterer http://www.weblayout.com/witness 'The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere...'
Re: OODL: Re: Use Download-Manager for summaries
Uli: (make sure you have the newest version from my web site) Alain: http://www.weblayout.com/witness Oh, I just realized I didn't have support for text files in there yet, only for ".hpg" files, which is pure HTML. I'll upload a new stack shortly. --- 'The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere...' --- HELP SAVE HYPERCARD: --- Sign: http://www.giguere.uqam.ca/petition/hcpetition.html --- Alain: Concerning your signature, Uli, could you please remove the last line that provides a URL for signing the petition. This resource has been permanently removed. Alain, sorry, I had almost forgotten about it :-( Cheers, -- M. Uli Kusterer http://www.weblayout.com/witness 'The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere...'
Re: OODL: Re: [opencard-digest V1 #233]
Regarding the visually handicapped: I agree the GUI must be able to be used by the visually impaired. My brother in law is . The ususal solution is a virtual magnifying glass (apple bundles one standard though they do exist for ibm as well). I think a solution would be make 'normal' gui, then E X P A N D I T S OT H A T A N Y O N EC A N R E A D I T. Eric, if it's a magnifying glass you need, that's not much of a problem. We'll need something in this direction for the FatBits view anyhow, so this would be very likely built into the engine, and would mainly involve a bit of multiplication every time a coordinate is passed in. Shouldn't be much trouble to put this into the HAL. Is anyone else wanting to work on the GUI? If not that is ok, i can produce something decent by this summer (fall at the very latest) - and hopefully sooner. So if everyone else wants to be 'review' - i.e. i make something, you check it out and critique it - that is ok with me. Since you can do it, I guess you should. Anyone who'd like to join in would certainly speak up. Licensing our creations is not a problem. I promise to have a working partnership agreement on command, and a licensing agreement within four weeks of command. The legal aspects are honestly not problematic. If you want a temporary 'in group license' i can do that this week. Its terms would be simply that you agree not to distribute anything produced by other developpers. Thus allows us to take the time needed to formulate exactly what we want for end users. I favor a limited form of PD. I do not think microsloth is a major worry - because what we produce will necessarily be cheaper. So if you want an in group license to allow development, ask and i shall post one this week (takes about an afternoon). I'm not sure I understand this. I don't want to keep the sources in-group, since as the group isn't yet clearly defined, it may later turn out that that might be a bad thing. I want to ensure the sources stay publicly available. Something like: "Herewith I grant an irrevocable licence to you to modify and/or distribute any sources I submit to the UFP FreeCard group's project without the need for royalties" or what-have-you. I'm not really sure what kind of licence it really should do, but I'm currently in favor of PD as the benefits still outweigh potential misuses. Cheers, -- M. Uli Kusterer http://www.weblayout.com/witness 'The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere...' --- HELP SAVE HYPERCARD: --- Details at: http://www.hyperactivesw.com/SaveHC.html Sign: http://www.giguere.uqam.ca/petition/hcpetition.html
Re: Re: OODL: Re:
At 12:20 AM -0500 on 1/22/00, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
on openStack --merryxmas antibody
-- DO NOT DELETE THIS CODE, it keeps the virus known as merryxmas
-- OFF your computerwritten by: The Black Knight
That's the antibody virus, it's not a trojan, it's a virus.
I didn't notice anywhere where it sets up code to propagate itself. Did
I miss it?
take a look at:
function getme src
put lineoffset("on openstack --merryxmas antibody",src) into a
put a + 143 into c
put (line a to c of src) into b
return b
end getme
and then take a look at what calls getme
Re: OODL: Re: merryxmas antibody infection
At 11:11 AM -0800 on 1/22/00, Alain Farmer wrote: Alain: Semantics .. semantics .. either way, we have to get rid of the damned thing. It has infected hundreds of my stacks, on both my servers. ALain, the following will protect against most HC viruses. It is what notified me of the thing in that stack. Note that I wrote this a long time ago, and it hasn't been edited since [explains the grammar and spelling]. Also, somewhere I have an installer for this. But anyway, put this in the script of the home stack: on set -- set protector if param(1)="script" then if param(3) contains "Home" then if param(5) contains "set the""script of" then answer "WARNING!!! HIGH CHANCE THIS IS A VIRUS SPREADING TO"¬ "YOUR HOME STACK!"returnreturn¬ "It is also possible that your are already infected with"¬ "something, and are running an innocent installer"¬ with "Explain" or "Allow" or "Block!!!" if it="Explain" then answer "A script is trying to set the Home stack's script to set"¬ "the script of another stack." with "Allow" or "BLOCK!" end if if it="Allow" then answer "Realy Allow This?" with "Yes" or "NO!" if it="Yes" then pass set end if else answer "Caution!! POSSIBLE VIRUS INFECTION HAPPENING"returnreturn¬ "It is probrubly just an inncocent installer however. Or it"¬ "could be a not-so-innocent trojan horse"¬ with "Explain" or "Allow" or "Block" if it="Explain" then answer "A script is trying to set the Home stack's script, but it"¬ "does not appear to contain a 'set_the script of' command"¬ "NOTE: THE COMMAND COULD BE HIDDEN." with "Allow" or "Block" end if if it="Allow" then answer "Realy Allow This?" with "Yes" or "NO" if it="Yes" then pass set end if end if else if param(3) contains stack then answer "A script is trying to set_the script of a stack other"¬ "than your home stack. This is probrubly just some scripter"¬ "showing off his ability to do a no-no by setting his own"¬ "scripts. There may are a few stacks out there who do this"¬ "for reason, too." with "Explain" or "Allow" or "Block" if it="Explain" then answer "A set_the script of command has been detected having no effect"¬ "on your Home Stack. Some stacks, like the Audio Tools stack,"¬ "do this with perfect reason." with "Allow" or "Block" end if if it="Allow" then pass set end if else pass set Answer "You are no being show where this came from..." edit script of the target exit to hypercard end if -- end set protector pass set end set You'll not the nice logic with param(5), which is the new script. I think I used param() because it got around some HC bug/limitation. My FreeCard backups on CDROM shall be considered tainted from now on. CD-R is fairly cheap (oh...wait...nevermind. You have to pay an outrageous tax in Canada now because everyone knows you're making unauthorized copies of music cd's wink, don't you?) but you should make new, up-to-date backups without the infection. And make sure to take a marker and mark those old backups as 'possibly tainted'.
Re: OODL: Re:
At 12:20 AM -0500 on 1/22/00, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on openStack --merryxmas antibody -- DO NOT DELETE THIS CODE, it keeps the virus known as merryxmas -- OFF your computerwritten by: The Black Knight That's the antibody virus, it's not a trojan, it's a virus. I didn't notice anywhere where it sets up code to propagate itself. Did I miss it?
Re: OODL: Re: [opencard-digest V1 #226]
Hi All, Eric Engle wrote to us: If we want to create a partnership just let me know (the subject has been quiet, which is good, i prefer action to talk). I prefer prior planning (talk) so as to prevent poor performances (miss-guided actions). I think that the early stab at the partnership agreement was great fuel for the discussions but not where we should be headed. Now we still have 350-degrees of choices to choose or eliminate. =;0 I promise to deliver a new direction for the partnership discussion within a week. In such a case, persons interested in being partners should let me know as that will allow concentration of effort. I think we have a chicken-and-egg thing with the partnership agreement at this juncture. People can't let you know unless they know what is what. Being unsure is fine for now, IMHO. Note that being a partner would be a real chore - so again i can easily exclude myself from such a position if that is preferable. To be a partner or NOT --- well it is most preferable if YOU decide, not anyone else. That is your choice I'd say. At the same point i can guarantee a certain commitment of time and energy. Great. Mark Rauterkus [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: OODL: Re: Remote Linux Configuration Project
At 5:37 PM +0100 on 1/13/00, M. Uli Kusterer wrote: Who does what? Get the NNTP stuff up and running. We need someone who takes care of it. Any volunteers? I guess I'm probabably doing it, being one of the few supporters. I volunteer to help.
Re: OODL: Re: Remote Linux Configuration Project
At 12:03 AM +0100 on 1/10/00, M. Uli Kusterer wrote: Hmmm... I have an idea for our mailing list: How about going to NNTP? We could run INN on the box. AFAIK, the interface of MTNW is _far_ better for the types of discussions we have than Eudora (or any other mail client). Imagine -- real threading! I think this would be a _big_ improvement. And certainly worth the effort required to move any archives. Sounds nice. I always thought about getting MacSoup, which allows to do news offline. Might be a nice idea ... but who does it? Who does what?
Re: OODL: Re: Remote Linux Configuration Project
At 11:35 PM +1000 on 1/9/00, Paul Sutton wrote: Anthony: How about going to NNTP? Mark: No thanks. Adrian: I'm with you on this. If you want threading, gateway this list to that one on NNTP. Adrian: NNTP threading isn't all it's cracked up to be. We often change the topic of the conversation and should at that point change the subject, NNTP would still list it as the same disucssion. If one conversation flows into another, IMO, it should be threaded with the one htat started it. It more shows the way the conversation progressed. If there is nothing at all simular, then a new message should be posted, at which point the NNTP client will create a new thread. Adrian: yes. I believe we need to look at ways to do this best and experiment with different approaches. For this reason an NNTP server will be set up on the Linux box and a test forum will be set up there. Agreed. And that forum will mirror this mailing list. Adrian: I've had problems with my subscription to the list and Scott has been very helpful with these. This was a side issue that I mentioned and unfortunately it seems to have become a big thing which it shouldn't have. Yeh, well we still wouldn't have to deal with the people who can't manage to unsubscribe from a mailing list, probably because they did not read and/or keep the directions that said how to do so. I guarantee we'll get plenty once we get big. Adrian: yes, mailing lists are capable of handling the same number of messages as a news server - the protocols are very similar. No. NNTP has a major advantage: It can be browsed online. If a mailing list gets 1000 messages, I have one choice: download. If a newsgroup gets 1000 messages, I can ignore them. If a mailing list gets 10mb of attachments, I get to download them (ak!). OTOH, if a NG does, I can ignore them. [Yes, I can -- and do -- configure my email client for a maximum message size. But most people don't have that option, and news is still better for that]. I don't fire up my newsreader, but I ALWAYS get email. Hmmm... I do both. Sometimes I even read news more often. Adrian: Yes, moving to NNTP would make the discussion harder to access for most people (email is *far* more popular than news). And Windows is far more popular than MacOS. And VB than HyperCard. And roaches and gnats than humans. Let's not go to the popularity arguments. There is no fundamental reason why anyone here can't fire up a newsreader such as MTNW. News is very popular too -- just consider the 10+ GB of bandwidth a full newsfeed takes each day. That's hardly unpopular. [Note: We won't be running a full newsfeed, or even a feed at all. Unless maybe we wanted csm.hypercard] Go for it. Set it up -- play with it. Take a few discussion threads over there. But, don't mess with the lifeblood of the organizational forum. Adrian: That's exactly what will be done. Agreed. I won't try to convince anyone to go news only until the proof of concept has proven itself :) Ultimately, I don't think I'll need to. Alain: Sounds like a commendable suggestion. Adrian: What would people like to see. We can probably do it. Maybe we'd better ask Alain how much RAM and disk space this machine has. I think we're now running: Apache w/ PHP modperl [webserver] sendmail[an MTA] majordomo [mailing lists] INN [NNTP] ssh [SSH for login] telnetd [for those w/o ssh] ftpd[FTP server] cvs [code checkin/out] rcs [Revision control system] some webforum thing some java chat thing talkd [talk to each other] fingerd [plans and such] I'm guessing we'll wind up adding: netatalk[AppleTalk] afs [AppleShare IP] Probably even: nfs [Unix file sharing] samba [Windows file sharing] 17 services off of one box. This should be interesting. Any IP yet, Alain? Adrian: Yes, chat isn't a plausible replacement for the list, but it will be useful for small groups working on a project together like me and Anthony when we are configuring the server. We will undoubtebly be using "talk" to communicate as we work and make sure we know what the other is doing. Yes, no doubt we'll be using talk and/or write. Remember to `mesg y` :)
Re: OODL: Re: Remote Linux Configuration Project
At 10:29 PM -0500 on 1/9/00, Mark Rauterkus wrote: Now, back to regular on-topic talk. Sorry to go off-topic. Just had to vent. Heh. Youy think that's bad... just go search the archive for my message after Windows Media Player screwed up one of my disks...
Re: OODL: Re: Remote Linux Configuration Project
Anthony: How about going to NNTP? Mark: No thanks. Adrian: I'm with you on this. If you want threading, gateway this list to that one on NNTP. Adrian: NNTP threading isn't all it's cracked up to be. We often change the topic of the conversation and should at that point change the subject, NNTP would still list it as the same disucssion. NNTP is spam rich, and majordomo isn't nearly as bad. And, NNTP isn't "modern." If we were to go to a different interface, I'd want to go into something NEW and BETTER. (hint: http://www.forumsamerica.com/Macintosh/) Personally, I love what interaction.in-progress.com can do. I crave a chat with A.I. Adrian: I'd like to see much more done with the web site, but the mailing list is the place to discuss things. (though topics like the political discussion might be good to have on a discussion board). Furthermore the type of interactions that occur on a mailing list generally don't make it to the news groups. More, "yea, right" and "trite" comments there. Email allows for better, in-depth discussions, IMHO. Each has its purpose, but we need to be drilling down for deeper, richer content discussions. Adrian: yes. I believe we need to look at ways to do this best and experiment with different approaches. For this reason an NNTP server will be set up on the Linux box and a test forum will be set up there. That alternative server isn't a "production" one -- and I'd hate to take these discussions anywhere that wasn't a rock-solid host for months on end - -- and we've got that here now. That server seems to me to be a developmental box. It is great to have those resources for development -- but things get too goofy when doing double duties. Adrian: I wouldn't be worried about the stability of the Linux box once we get it set up. Linux is very stable and has better protected memory than Mac or Windows by a long way. I seen no problem nor worries about bounces, subscriptions, and admins getting ticked off here. I think those are inflated assumptions that are NOT real. The grass isn't greener there, IMHO. Adrian: I've had problems with my subscription to the list and Scott has been very helpful with these. This was a side issue that I mentioned and unfortunately it seems to have become a big thing which it shouldn't have. As for the scaleable issue -- I asked MONTHS ago for a new "License" list to be created. To create a new list is sorta easy on the box such as the one we are now being hosted. The system admin could do it in 20 minutes, max. But, there wasn't a "demand" by the users to such a service. We have far more capacity on the box and bandwidth this is sitting on. We could expand 1,000 fold and still be safe here I'm going to assume (for the sake of an illustration). Adrian: yes, mailing lists are capable of handling the same number of messages as a news server - the protocols are very similar. BTW, I'd still like to make more specialized lists here. Adrian: In time I'm sure we will, but the group is still small and things like licencing need to be decided by everyone so that everyone is happy with it. I don't fire up my newsreader, but I ALWAYS get email. Adrian: Yes, moving to NNTP would make the discussion harder to access for most people (email is *far* more popular than news). I think this would be a _big_ improvement. And certainly worth the effort required to move any archives. Doubtful. We should improve the FAQs, the scope of the discussions, the numbers of Voters, --- the things that matter. Adrian: Agreed. I am working on writing a Log now and a FAQ will soon follow. Go for it. Set it up -- play with it. Take a few discussion threads over there. But, don't mess with the lifeblood of the organizational forum. Adrian: That's exactly what will be done. Alain: Adrian: How about going to NNTP? Adrian: I didn't say that, that was Anthony. I'm against going to NNTP, but am willing to try it out. Mark: And NNTP isn't "modern.". If we were to go to a different interface, I'd want to go into something NEW and BETTER. Alain: Sounds like a commendable suggestion. Adrian: What would people like to see. We can probably do it. Mark: (hint: http://www.forumsamerica.com/Macintosh/) Personally, I love what interaction.in-progress.com can do. I crave a chat with A.I. Adrian: What is it about this site that you like Mark? Alain: The chats that I have visited were OK, I guess, but they usually end up being superficial conversations on mundane subjects. E-mail gives you more time to ponder on what others write, and it allows you enough time and continuity to compose your responses thought-fully. And, of course, there is the synchronous versus asynchronous tradeoff too (e.g. you are temporally constrained with chats) Adrian: Yes, chat isn't a plausible replacement for the list, but it will be useful for small groups working on a project together like me and Anthony when we are configuring the server. We will
Re: OODL: Re: Remote Linux Configuration Project
At 6:55 PM -0800 on 1/8/00, Alain Farmer wrote: Adrian: How about going to NNTP? Alain: I am not against the idea but, when I suggested something similar several months ago, the suggestion was flatly rejected. Primarily due to problems solved by running a single server. Remember, back then I was one of the people who helped _quickly_ put that idea to a demise. It'd never work except with a private server. Alain: Another good point. Mark: I seen no problem nor worries about bounces, subscriptions, and admins getting ticked off here. Alain: Adrian is indeed the only person that I am aware of that has had such problems with our list. [Remember, Adrian was one of the recipients of the origonal message -- it was cc'd here] Mark: I think those are inflated assumptions that are NOT real. Alain: Adrian is not a twit, Mark. If he says that he has had such problems, then it is surely true. I think he was refering to me. Mark: To create a new list is sorta easy on the box such as the one we are now being hosted. The system admin could do it in 20 minutes, max. Alain: The difficulty or relative ease of setting up mailing lists, while it has been a royal headache for me, on a Mac, is nonetheless not an issue in this case. Know how easy it is to start a new newsgroup? A one-line control message in a header. Adrian: I think this would be a _big_ improvement. And certainly worth the effort required to move any archives. I said that. Adrian might not be too happy with that mis-attribution. Alain: Not right away, Adrian. Mark makes some good ^^ Anthony
Re: OODL: Re: [opencard-digest V1 #214]
At 8:04 AM -0700 on 1/4/00, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2) Alternative would be setting up as an 'unincorporated association'. ... If people think that 1) a licensing agreement can be set up by consensus (i'm sceptical) We did it before, then several new people came and we started discussing it again. We can do it again. 2) no business would be done by the association I think we all agree on this. 3) liability risk is too great (i do not think so especially since a person concerned with liability becomes an associate - which BTW is why associates do not have votes the idea being to cut them out of any liability loop. Since anyone is free to use the warez or form another business there is no question of cutting them out of the "pie") Well, there is always the liability of infringing on something the US Patent office considers patentable, such as displaying an inverted cursor, using a sliding window for dates (like the recent thread on the HC list -- just patented last year), etc. And no one can forget the Unisys LZW mess. I presume the idea of a corporation is out - which is my practical counsel (though legally speaking such a form is also possible). Possible? Without a cashflow... Hmmm... I smell... Intenet Company IPO :)
Re: OODL: Re: Organizational Name Ponderings
Hi, Why not just FreeCard.org? [is it not availible?] Its not available. The domains that are include some our enemies might desire. (FWIW, Tis a 'Baa Humbug' kinda joke I guess.): CARDFREE.NET CARDFREE.ORG Of course, there was the list I sent prior -- all available. Mark Rauterkus [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OODL: Re Uli's recent update
I've tried to save a few of those I've seen posted (eg: Judy Perry's list from the HC list). Rob, can you make them available, maybe on the web site? Or e-mail them to me so i can put them up. Uli, et al: I have gathered together all postings to the HC List over the last year or so that discuss desired features for an xTalk UI or critique shortcomings in existing xTalk UIs (primarily MC). You can download the text (68K) at ftp://ftp.serendipitysoftware.com/pub/xCritiques.sea This will expand into a folder containing four SimpleText files. Rob Cozens, CCW http://www.serendipitysoftware.com/who.html "And I, which was two fooles, do so grow three; Who are a little wise, the best fooles bee." from "The Triple Foole" by John Donne (1572-1631)
Re: OODL: Re Uli's recent update
Or those who mind the hassle to get an FTP-client fired up and upload the files... most of those still aren't user friendly and reliable enough. Uli, et al: If you're willing to pay for FTP-client software, try Vicom's FTP Client: point-and-click, drag-and-drop, and stable. Rob Cozens, CCW http://www.serendipitysoftware.com/who.html "And I, which was two fooles, do so grow three; Who are a little wise, the best fooles bee." from "The Triple Foole" by John Donne (1572-1631)
Re: OODL: Re Uli's recent update
can you make them available, maybe on the web site? Or e-mail them to me so i can put them up. Uli, I'm feeling pressure on several different fronts; so it's unlikely I can get to it before next weekend. I'll do what I can and let you know. Rob Cozens, CCW http://www.serendipitysoftware.com/who.html "And I, which was two fooles, do so grow three; Who are a little wise, the best fooles bee." from "The Triple Foole" by John Donne (1572-1631)
Re: OODL: Re Uli's recent update
I'm feeling pressure on several different fronts; so it's unlikely I can get to it before next weekend. I'll do what I can and let you know. Rob, no problem. Take your time. Cheers, -- M. Uli Kusterer http://www.weblayout.com/witness 'The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere...' --- HELP SAVE HYPERCARD: --- Details at: http://www.hyperactivesw.com/SaveHC.html Sign: http://www.giguere.uqam.ca/petition/hcpetition.html
Re: OODL: Re Uli's recent update
At 3:47 PM +0100 on 12/12/99, M. Uli Kusterer wrote: Or those who mind the hassle to get an FTP-client fired up and upload the files... most of those still aren't user friendly and reliable enough. Many are getting quite user friendly. Try NetFinder, Anarchie, etc. Look like the Finder. [I prefer fetch or plain ol' UNIX ftp, though...]
Re: OODL: Re Uli's recent update
Alain: We certainly hope so, but I am not sure that Anthony is entirely convinced about the relevance and/or advisability of including the DO command in FreeScript. Alain, I think he's found a way to support it without slowing down the rest of the language, which should be just fine. After all, do is used only in the rare case where the language misses a certain feature, which means if it's slow it's not problematic, and we have the benefit of remaining compatible. Alain: That's the spirit, Uli. Make it easy for everyone to contribute, even those who contributors that are not familiar or capable of FTP-ing their contributions themselves. Or those who mind the hassle to get an FTP-client fired up and upload the files... most of those still aren't user friendly and reliable enough. Alain: I prefer HTML, however, because plain-text mail is rather limited and un-structured compared to the multimedia and structuring possibilities of HTML, with or without CGI programs. Now you're tempting me ... HTML is great for web pages, but if you receive it via e-mail, many people get gibberish, or have to fire up a separate program to view it. Also, most stuff can be done as effective by just scattering a few tabs or spaces through text. Cheers, -- M. Uli Kusterer http://www.weblayout.com/witness 'The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere...' --- HELP SAVE HYPERCARD: --- Details at: http://www.hyperactivesw.com/SaveHC.html Sign: http://www.giguere.uqam.ca/petition/hcpetition.html
Re: OODL: Re Uli's recent update
I've tried to save a few of those I've seen posted (eg: Judy Perry's list from the HC list). Rob, can you make them available, maybe on the web site? Or e-mail them to me so i can put them up. Cheers, -- M. Uli Kusterer http://www.weblayout.com/witness 'The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere...' --- HELP SAVE HYPERCARD: --- Details at: http://www.hyperactivesw.com/SaveHC.html Sign: http://www.giguere.uqam.ca/petition/hcpetition.html
Re: OODL: Re Uli's recent update
Uli: Or you can send suggestions what you always liked to the list, or about things that annoy you about HC/MC/SC's user interface. I've tried to save a few of those I've seen posted (eg: Judy Perry's list from the HC list). Rob Cozens, CCW http://www.serendipitysoftware.com/who.html "And I, which was two fooles, do so grow three; Who are a little wise, the best fooles bee." from "The Triple Foole" by John Donne (1572-1631)
Re: OODL: Re: [MP3 ENCODER] (off topic)
In a message dated 11/21/99 2:50:31 PM, you wrote: I recently heard that some company bought the rights to the GIF format from CompuServe and are going to start charging licensing fees to any web sites or multimedia projects which use GIF files for the presentation of graphics. Is that crazy, or what? -- Downs You got it a little mixed up. CompuServe made the GIF format, turns out, some company owned the compression technology used in GIF, and didn't say so until a few years ago. They started charging fees for the compression technology, and everyone got very annoyed, but oh well. The compression technology is LZW, an adaptive dictionary compression that works by assigning a code word the the unique strings it's seen b4, and therefore those unique strings can be replaced with one code-word. I have an HC stack that employs LZW if anyone is interested.
Re: Re: OODL: Re: [MP3 ENCODER] (off topic)
In a message dated 11/21/99 5:31:50 PM, you wrote: Unisys has a patent on GIF's compression algorithm, that's why they started charging $$ for programs that create GIFs. What's funniest is that IBM also have a patent on the same algorithm. I wonder why they don't sue unisys... ? probably for fear that unisys would win and then IBM can't use LZW for free.
Re: OODL: Re: [MP3 ENCODER] (off topic)
At 2:49 PM -0500 on 11/21/99, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So far they've sued to take every Open-source MP3 encoder off the market. As far as their concerned, you need their permission to write an MP3 encoder. I recently heard that some company bought the rights to the GIF format from CompuServe and are going to start charging licensing fees to any web sites or multimedia projects which use GIF files for the presentation of graphics. Is that crazy, or what? The company is Unisys, they did not buy GIF -- they just "own" LZW, which is used in GIF, and could charge whatever fees they want... So far, they say they won't, but only if you used a product from a vendor that has already payed a tribute to them.
Re: OODL: Re: [MP3 ENCODER] (off topic)
At 11:10 PM +0100 on 11/21/99, M. Uli Kusterer wrote: What's funniest is that IBM also have a patent on the same algorithm. I wonder why they don't sue unisys... ? Because they don't make money off of it, and they don't think it's worth the multimillion-dollar lawsuit? Or maybe they did -- and probably settled out of court.
Re: OODL: Re: [MP3 ENCODER] (off topic)
I recently heard that some company bought the rights to the GIF format from CompuServe and are going to start charging licensing fees to any web sites or multimedia projects which use GIF files for the presentation of graphics. Is that crazy, or what? Downs, Unisys has a patent on GIF's compression algorithm, that's why they started charging $$ for programs that create GIFs. What's funniest is that IBM also have a patent on the same algorithm. I wonder why they don't sue unisys... ? Cheers, -- M. Uli Kusterer http://www.weblayout.com/witness 'The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere...' --- HELP SAVE HYPERCARD: --- Details at: http://www.hyperactivesw.com/SaveHC.html Sign: http://www.giguere.uqam.ca/petition/hcpetition.html
Re: OODL: Re: [opencard-digest V1 #164]
In their original form the documents are either PICT or RSRC. However since the university is using monstrous NT and linux I added the suffix .DOC to make sure they would be able to be transported. Just use res edit to change the file information. This doesn't work. .DOC is the suffix for Word files. Most browsers will unpack the files the wrong way. Also, if you want the resource fork of a Mac file to come along properly, you have to compact it using StuffIt, or at least encode it as MacBinary or BinHex. Else you'll only get the data fork. I can, if you wish, send pictures as GIF or JPEG (at what level of resolution?) This would be cool. Just make them 32 x 32 or whatever size they have. There is no real 'resolution' stored with GIFs or JPEGs beyond their dimensions. Is there any particular reason that switching stacks takes so long? I only have a 68030 but switching stacks (as opposed to cards) is actually slower than HC. I never noticed this. But it's been a while since I last used it for multiple stacks. Did you check whether it only happens for toplevel stacks or also for ones opened as modeless etc.? Cheers, -- M. Uli Kusterer http://www.weblayout.com/witness 'The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere...' --- HELP SAVE HYPERCARD: --- Details at: http://www.hyperactivesw.com/SaveHC.html Sign: http://www.giguere.uqam.ca/petition/hcpetition.html
Re: OODL: Re: [opencard-digest V1 #158]
Umm... zero-length attachments don't help much. At 9:37 AM -0700 on 11/16/99, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: oh god more pretty pictures... Like I said, if MC wants to use them, feel free. Thank you! Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 Attachment converted: Other:untitled.doc (WDBN/MSWD) (0004E411) Attachment converted: Other:picts.doc (WDBN/MSWD) (0004E412)
Re: OODL: Re: opencard-digest V1 #160
At 8:25 AM +1000 on 11/16/99, Adrian Sutton wrote: Alain: Let's move on now to the technical stuff: The UFP web server is decreasing in value every day. Enough free webservers out there that if we can't manage to get enough in donations, we can use one. Adrian: We could, but it is a last resort. It also rules out CGIs. Maybe. There are some people who support free software through websites. They might allow CGI. No names off the top of my head, though. It will eventually have to be replaced. Software had to be upgraded and maintained on a continuous basis. Apache, Linux: Total cost $0. Even a 486 can saturate a T1; don't worry about it. Adrian: This is now what I'm running 98% of the time on my G3 300Mhz. It is good, it definitely floods my 10Mb connection. Wow! Another Linux convert :) My free Internet priviledges are going to expire soon. Ouch... high-speed connections do cost money. Adrian: If people could come up with benefits for my university, I *may* be able to convince them to support the project. While this isn't needed yet I'm going to be here for at least 2 more years and quite possibly more. We'd also need to start convincing people to support us now before we need to so that we have the support we need. It's something worth considering anyway. Never stopped Linux. I'd rather win on technical superiority than on marketing, like a certain large company which shall remain nameless... and, for that matter, certain multicolored computers. Adrian: Well, those multicoloured computers generally whip the pants off of most other computers out there They did when they first came out, but the other side is using PIII's now, not PII's. It takes a G4 to kick a PIII's a**.
Re: OODL: Re Eric - GUI and miscellaneous
At 5:30 PM +0100 on 11/13/99, M. Uli Kusterer wrote: At 11:24 PM +0100 on 11/10/99, M. Uli Kusterer wrote: But again, since MC and HC are so close, this will be child's play once the initial conceptual decisions are made. It won't be a problem. Hmmm... Sounds like I need to resume my UI paper. Drat. Anthony, please clarify, I don't get what you are saying. I was saying that any xTalk is better for prototyping our UI than any other language (C, C++, Visual Basic, whatever), and that since it's an xTalk it'll get pretty easy to do the conversion. It will be work, but at least some parts can be re-used, and since I think MC's approach to the editing environment will work well in OpenCard, we'd only have to convert MC's menu stacks and such stuff. I was writing a paper on user interface, HC in particular. If we're going to start interface work soon, I'd better finish it.
Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: OODL: Re: Business purposes: no profit, plus forking]]]]
Is the font New York available on winDoze? I agree, courier is an excellent choice for the font. We should use fonts which are standard and readily available on both platforms - helvetica is not unreadable in bold format at 12 points and up. I suppose palatino is also unavailable... what fonts are available cross platform? because, yeah, helvetica 12 standard is unreadable. WARNING: RANT FOLLOWS! Rant on vectorial drawing systems: VECTOR GRAPHIX SUCK!!! suck, i say, suck. In fact, they suck raw eggs. I _hate vectorial drawing. DO you know WHY? It is imprecise. Try to adjust a vectorial drawing by one pixel. Try. And watch me laugh ... and scream... The _only advantages of vectorial drawing are: 1) lower storage capacity - which is solved with gif and jpeg 2) easy transformation (shrink/grow) - which has also been solved, at least in 2d 3) the potential for 3d representations - which i have yet to see in a bit map format - but which i do expect to see because: a) memory is growing all the time, whether ram or hard disk storage space b) bit maps are fare more precise both in drawing and in placing. Try to draw a vectorial line exactly n-pixels from another vectorial object. Try. eahahaharharhahh!!! ps - bit maps are why the mac dominated and continues to dominate the art world (and will continue thanks to DVD and pixlar). The mac classic, despite a miniscule screen offered: sharp contrast and precision - you _know where that pixel is wysiwyg - you draw a picture in macpaint on a classix and print it and pixel by pixel, its _exactly the same. Thus, i _still own copies of MacPaint, MacPaint II, and even MacDrawPro - which by the way has some decent - and _only decent vectorial artwork. Oh, check out the addcolor bitmap color drawing tools - they are quite nice. Last reason why bitmap rules, ok: scanning. So... if we could have a drawing editor oriented towards the bitmap drawing programs listed above rather than _any vectorial system I would be much happier (though I admit vectorial works -sort of- for placing buttons and fields. It is still imprecise, i.e. one pixel realignments are simply painful). ENd of RANT Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1
Re: [Forking for Business [was Re: OODL: Re: Business purposes: no profit, plus forking]]
DeRobertis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think we'd have to say that you can use the source for any purpose OUTSIDE of the partnership -- a fork (of organization, not code). Eric: That is my understanding, but if I am wrong please correct me - that we do not envision restricting use or sale of source code by third parties. I realise this is a license issue rather than a partnership issue but it is relevant in so far as: if you tell me 'hey we want no commercial use' then I can draw up the partnership to reflect this. Or if you say "well actually some of us do want to fork into a commercial venture if that is ok with the rest of you" which can also influence the document i draw up for your consideration. So, please speak up, because I want to draft only once and rewrite only once - so i must know, with as much precision as possible exactly what is desired. Thank you! Eric Engle Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1
Re: [Re: OODL: Re: Partnership Agreement]
Eric: harrumph...legally speaking...there are no such things as empty words harumph Alain: It just seems that way to us non-lawyer types! Eric: (:-] Alain: What does this smiley mean? Eric: Uli, this is in need of optimization. If 20 partners want more than 20 partners, they can have more -- they have unamity, they can change the agreement. If they don't want more, they don't get more -- it requires unamity. Alain: If unanimity is required for changes like adding some new partners over and above our original estimate of how many partners we thought we were or that we thought we would have, then I hesitate to specify such things until such time that our plans are more definite. Uli: There is no need for a limit. It is just extra words, which are without any real meaning. Alain: I tend to favour this view too, despite its lack of legal rigour. Eric: (...) every comma counts. 'Legal documents are interpreted in their context' so the words are actually not meaningless, they only appear redundant and ineffective because your reading is analytic rather than synthetic (i.e. teleological). Alain: That where the lawyer stereotypes come from, no doubt! Eric: (Last phrase is deliberately obscure in a cheap and egoistic attempt to demonstrate my technical expertise... 8-° ^---(me with glasses looking learned...) Alain: (gut-busting laughter) = __ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
Re: [Re: OODL: Re: Partnership Agreement]
At 3:37 AM -0700 on 11/10/99, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: harrumph...legally speaking...there are no such things as empty words harumph (:-] Uli, this is in need of optimization. Consider: If 20 partners want more than 20 partners, they can have more -- they have unamity, they can change the agreement. If they don't want more, they don't get more -- it requires unamity. There is no need for a limit. It is just extra words, which are without any real meaning. Eric: Not really. In law we interpret _everthing contextually. If the initial partnership agreement says 'no more than twenty' it is not set in stone and can be changed, but if later on someone wants to pack the partnership we can argue otherwise. Won't need to: It only takes one partner to say 'no' to adding a new partner.
Partnership and Contracts [was Re: [OODL: Re Eric - GUI andmiscellaneous]]
At 3:14 AM -0700 on 11/10/99, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not with metaCard. With metaCard we would (probably) enter, as a partnership into a contract. In exactly the same way, our end-user license would be between 'us' (a partnership to be formed) and the end-user. Would it be possible to write in that no one may form a contract on behalf of the partnership without the aproval of the other partners?
Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: OODL: Re: Business purposes: no profit,plus forking]]]]
It is imprecise. Try to adjust a vectorial drawing by one pixel. Try. And watch me laugh ... and scream... Eric, this depends wholly on the implementation. Claris' products are very inaccurate because they do constant conversion between units, which causes things to move around from time to time. Also, many editing modes are implemented inaccurate. 1) lower storage capacity - which is solved with gif and jpeg Depends on the image you're trying to draw. 2) easy transformation (shrink/grow) - which has also been solved, at least in 2d I tend to disagree. Try to scale a 3x3 pixel triangle to 30x30 and you'll see the advantage of Vector over bitmap. b) bit maps are fare more precise both in drawing and in placing. Try to draw a vectorial line exactly n-pixels from another vectorial object. Try. Again, this is a misperception based on inaccurate editing tools. ps - bit maps are why the mac dominated and continues to dominate the art world (and will continue thanks to DVD and pixlar). The mac classic, despite a miniscule screen offered: sharp contrast and precision - you _know where that pixel is wysiwyg - you draw a picture in macpaint on a classix and print it and pixel by pixel, its _exactly the same. I have to disappoint you. The Mac is mostly object-oriented drawing (=vector) on the inside. The Mac's built-in graphics format, PICT, is a vector format. Last reason why bitmap rules, ok: scanning. You have to use both bitmap and vector where appropriate. E.g. for scripted graphics vector is much more convenient (see the SuperCard or Serf example projects for proof). You can still use "bitmap" objects if you need the advantages of bitmaps. It's a combination that's so cool (that's why SuperPaint had such a huge following). So... if we could have a drawing editor oriented towards the bitmap drawing programs listed above rather than _any vectorial system I would be much happier (though I admit vectorial works -sort of- for placing buttons and fields. It is still imprecise, i.e. one pixel realignments are simply painful). How are they painful? Just select the button and drag in one pixel to the left. There's not much difference between that and using the "select" tool to move a graphic one pixel. I don't get your point, it appears. Cheers, -- M. Uli Kusterer http://www.weblayout.com/witness 'The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere...' --- HELP SAVE HYPERCARD: --- Details at: http://www.hyperactivesw.com/SaveHC.html Sign: http://www.giguere.uqam.ca/petition/hcpetition.html
Re: OODL: Re Eric - GUI and miscellaneous
Alain: Play it safe by ascertaining the type and format of the graphics that will effectively be used by our programmers. Alain, Eric, the format is not a problem as long as it's a loss-less format. E.g. if you don't use many gradients, you can use GIF, if you have many gradients and smooth transitions you might want to choose Photoshop. No matter what, make sure you have many options what to export them to, and probably try out how they'll look once exported just to make sure they're suitable for export. Alain: These should probably left until a little bit later, because windowing is added to the mix. It's not a problem. We'll have to do a lot of conversion anyhow. Since he's doing it in MC, he'll do the dialogs in there, and we can later export it to whatever format we choose for OpenCard. They are similar enough that this shouldn't keep him from doing the prototype. Besides we haven't decided what we want in the dialog boxes, let alone how these elements will be presented on the screen. That's exactly what designing the User Interface is all about, deciding this. That's why we need a UI group at all! Trying to get MC's features into a useable interface would be the first step, later we'd modify the things we implement differently. But again, since MC and HC are so close, this will be child's play once the initial conceptual decisions are made. It won't be a problem. Cheers, -- M. Uli Kusterer http://www.weblayout.com/witness 'The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere...' --- HELP SAVE HYPERCARD: --- Details at: http://www.hyperactivesw.com/SaveHC.html Sign: http://www.giguere.uqam.ca/petition/hcpetition.html
Re: OODL: Re: VOTING HAS STARTED
Folks, I accidentally added an additional "StarCard" as the last choice of
the second list of names. Ignore it.
Uli, et al:
I thought they were distinct choices: "StarCard" "*Card" ("*"=Star).
Of course the star in English is asterisk, leading to the possible
conotation: "*Card...for the scriptor with only one *." :{`)
...and I'm still writing in PowerCard
Rob Cozens, CCW
http://www.serendipitysoftware.com/who.html
"And I, which was two fooles, do so grow three;
Who are a little wise, the best fooles bee."
from "The Triple Foole" by John Donne (1572-1631)
Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: OODL: Re: Business purposes: no profit, plus forking]]]
In explaining the low quality graphics, i expect that the authors of MC are used to vectorial drawing rather than bitmap. Personally, for anything detailed bitmaps are better, unless your doing transformations. Since MC does not support "doMenu" as extensively as HC i do not forsee working on the menus till spring. I will produce between 20 and 100 basic icons (arrows, applications, sound volume, obvious stuff) in a bitmap format. Once i figure out how to get to the tool palette (thanks for the hint that it is a substack of home) i shall indeed, do a bit of surgery on our unfortunate hand icon (perhaps it is a cousin of Thing?) I personally prefer Chicago 12 for dialogues and the default font for buttons - if it would be compatible with pc. What is the default font on pc dialogues? on pc buttons? If the interface looks mac or pc is ok by me but it does need improvement. Oh, i favor monaco or geneva for the default script editor - again, are they supported in the pc environment? Regarding MCs background/grouping system, it sure is different. I hope to be able to figure it out - i can ungroup my imported HC background but then how to regroup it? shall figure it out... oh yeah, the free hand tool looks like indochina... for those who know where it is, 'nuff said. Yeah, i agree back it all up and then hack away... I will at least do the browse cursor - the arrow cursor is big, but its nicely done and i don't see it needing changed. The other palette tool icons are 'acceptable'. Really, bet ya that the icons were done in a vectorial environment, shrunk (as bitmaps?) and the result... well, the farmers in wisconsin would be impressed... Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1
Forking for Business [was Re: OODL: Re: Business purposes: noprofit, plus forking]
At 4:10 PM +0100 on 11/8/99, M. Uli Kusterer wrote: I guess this sounds like we'll *have to* say "no business purpose". As long as this can't be misinterpreted to force us not to sell anything OpenCard, even under a different name. I think we'd have to say that you can use the source for any purpose OUTSIDE of the partnership -- a fork (of organization, not code).
Re: [Re: [Re: OODL: Re: Business purposes: no profit, plusforking]]
Granted, I work at an art school so i may be a little critical but the hypercard icons while only BW are actually nicer than the MC icons. Eric, honestly spoken, I would have expected a loud yell about MC's interface from an art school person. I have arts major course and it hurts my eyes. Text in buttons is vertically centered the wrong way (too close to the bottom), most buttons waste space, it just doesn't look Mac-like enough for me. Using 9pt Geneva is surely useless these days, but at least Chicago 12 (or Charcoal, or Espy) could be expected. Also, what feature is where is pretty un-intuitive. If you need some help, I can assist you, as I have already hacked around in MC a bit. They dialogue boxes are rather huge, and black on grey is a bad scheme. It's not quite optimal. For check boxes it's acceptable if it's a lighter shade of gray, and it's a bold font, like Chicago, but Helvetica is unreadable. So, at least from an aesthetic/artistic perspective, i guess i volunteer to start doing some artsy craftsy stuff - would that be useful or desirable? I am assuming i can edit dialogue boxes using resEdit (which i am not sure of since all MC dialogue boxes and palettes are in fact stacks). I can also edit the cursor icons (and then save the documents as picts which i assume can be exported to ibm pc format). MetaCard's editor is all MetaCard stacks. They're mostly substacks of the Home stack and the Help stack. You'll notice that editing substacks is pretty awkward. Those background "groups" are also hard to work with. my suggestion is that you re-arrange the menus and dialogs. I used to send lots of messages to Scott, maybe I can dig them up again. Its funny because the color palettes and functionality of buttons and fields are definitely superior to mac - the dialogues are a little boxy, the cursors a little bulky - but those icons are, well, impossible. Yeah. Especially the tool palette icons look like the drawings I did on my first day with a Mac -- in HyperCard, using a mouse and the freehand tool. Please let me know if i should start working on the following resources: icons cursors dialogue boxes I'd also ask you to change the menus. The best way to do this would be to make a backup of the home and help stacks (just in case). Then you should copy the home stack, rename it and edit the things in there. I might still have a sample stack that demonstrates the basics of an MC editor stack, I'll look for it. if such be the case I can expect to have produced a couple hundred icons and a dozen cursors in a month or so: the dialogue boxes i can't say because i do not know if they are stored as resources (i hope) or stacks (oh well i wanted to learn their user interface and stack architecture anyway...) I think we won't need 100 icons. We should focus on the ones actually used in the user interface. An icon library can be added later. Oh, i expect to have a draft of the partnership agreement before the end of november and am indeed only waiting for commentary upon what has been suggested so as to avoid duplication of effort. Cheers, -- M. Uli Kusterer http://www.weblayout.com/witness 'The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere...' --- HELP SAVE HYPERCARD: --- Details at: http://www.hyperactivesw.com/SaveHC.html Sign: http://www.giguere.uqam.ca/petition/hcpetition.html
Re: OODL: Re: VOTING HAS STARTED
I thought they were distinct choices: "StarCard" "*Card" ("*"=Star).
Of course the star in English is asterisk, leading to the possible
conotation: "*Card...for the scriptor with only one *." :{`)
...and I'm still writing in PowerCard
Rob,
as you might see on the new list, PowerCard is in there now. As to
StarCard/*Card -- they are distinct. But on the second list I sent
"StarCard" was listed twice.
Cheers,
-- M. Uli Kusterer
http://www.weblayout.com/witness
'The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere...'
--- HELP SAVE HYPERCARD: ---
Details at: http://www.hyperactivesw.com/SaveHC.html
Sign: http://www.giguere.uqam.ca/petition/hcpetition.html
Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: OODL: Re: Business purposes: no profit, plusforking]]]
Since MC does not support "doMenu" as extensively as HC i do not forsee working on the menus till spring. Look for the "menuPick" message. MC has all its menus in popup-buttons (you can show them using the "editMenus" property), since other platforms don't have a global menu bar. I will produce between 20 and 100 basic icons (arrows, applications, sound volume, obvious stuff) in a bitmap format. Once i figure out how to get to the tool palette (thanks for the hint that it is a substack of home) i shall indeed, do a bit of surgery on our unfortunate hand icon (perhaps it is a cousin of Thing?) The cursors are also just graphics, as are the icons. There are sub-stacks of home that contain them. I personally prefer Chicago 12 for dialogues and the default font for buttons - if it would be compatible with pc. What is the default font on pc dialogues? on pc buttons? Chicago is a Mac-only font. That's why MetaCard chose Helvetica. It's the only font that looks pretty much the same on Mac, Unix and Windows. But my personal opinion is making everything Macintosh for now. MC can still use Helvetica Bold or Arial Black or whatever on Win and Unix. If the interface looks mac or pc is ok by me but it does need improvement. Of course I'd prefer Mac to Windows, but as long as it looks halfway decent I don't mind. The worst thing aren't the icons or the buttons, it's the arrangement of menus and dialog boxes, combined with use of many tricks like MetaCharacters. Oh, i favor monaco or geneva for the default script editor - again, are they supported in the pc environment? Both no. I'd suggest Courier, as it's one of the few fonts that's available with most computers, whether Mac or Windows. Regarding MCs background/grouping system, it sure is different. I hope to be able to figure it out - i can ungroup my imported HC background but then how to regroup it? shall figure it out... You needn't ungroup it to edit it. Use the "Edit Groups" command (may even be called Edit Background). My suggestion would be orienting the editor more towards ClarisDraw or other vector draw programs, with a whiff of SuperCard and HyperCard here and there. Cheers, -- M. Uli Kusterer http://www.weblayout.com/witness 'The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere...' --- HELP SAVE HYPERCARD: --- Details at: http://www.hyperactivesw.com/SaveHC.html Sign: http://www.giguere.uqam.ca/petition/hcpetition.html
Re: [Re: OODL: Re: Business purposes: no profit, plus forking]
"M. Uli Kusterer" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With no business purpose partners and associates are effectively prevented from entering into contracts in the name of the partnerhip in pursuit of its business purpose. With limited business purpose there is the potential that partner A enters into contract with third party B thus binding the partnership and all its members. I guess this sounds like we'll *have to* say "no business purpose". As long as this can't be misinterpreted to force us not to sell anything OpenCard, even under a different name. You get around the "no business purpose" (necessary to prevent liability) by later forming other partnerships among yourselves. That is, by 'forking'. Naturally, 'spin off' associations would have a profit motivation. How you wish to do this may be a subject you wish to raise and discuss before i draw up a first draft of a partnership agreement. Really, once you open up business purposes you open up potential liability for contracts entered into by your partners. True, partners owe each other a fiduciary duty (which is a higher level of duty than 'ordinary care' - sorta like marriage, you have to watch out for your partners interests as well as your own). The liability is prevented by 'nipping' any commercial object in the bud. Again, thank you for correcting my misperceptions about MC not being involved. If i (finally?) understand properly, they let us use MC to develop some graphics for them (e.g. icons, dialogue boxes, and a tool palette) and they get to distribute the interface developed in exchange for a license for a certain number of our developers. If that is the case let me know - cause other than cheesy icons and a sort of ok tool palette, i think their gui is ok. And i actually enjoy drawing icons... and will happily start - would that be useful? Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1
Re: [Re: OODL: Re: Business purposes: no profit, plus forking]
You get around the "no business purpose" (necessary to prevent liability) by later forming other partnerships among yourselves. That is, by 'forking'. Naturally, 'spin off' associations would have a profit motivation. How you wish to do this may be a subject you wish to raise and discuss before i draw up a first draft of a partnership agreement. Eric, I think as long as your first draft doesn't include anything that makes founding other partnerships that sell copies of OC impossible, I don't see a problem. Really, once you open up business purposes you open up potential liability for contracts entered into by your partners. True, partners owe each other a fiduciary duty (which is a higher level of duty than 'ordinary care' - sorta like marriage, you have to watch out for your partners interests as well as your own). The liability is prevented by 'nipping' any commercial object in the bud. That's why our partnership should be "no business", then. Right? Again, thank you for correcting my misperceptions about MC not being involved. If i (finally?) understand properly, they let us use MC to develop some graphics for them (e.g. icons, dialogue boxes, and a tool palette) and they get to distribute the interface developed in exchange for a license for a certain number of our developers. If that is the case let me know - cause other than cheesy icons and a sort of ok tool palette, i think their gui is ok. And i actually enjoy drawing icons... and will happily start - would that be useful? There are more problems. For example, the menu editor requires you to enter a menu item's name with metacharacters if you want a shortcut or styles. Here a real editor would be cool. Also, the arrangement of the menu items is pretty counter-productive. Too many frequently-used things are hidden away behind three clicks, instead of being placed in a menu, while other commands are in the menu even though they're used only once at the beginning of creating a stack. It misses a hierarchic view of all stacks and substacks etc. and in my book it uses too much screen space. Also, some parts (like the script editor) don't ask you whether you wish to save often enough. There are lots of subtle things wrong there, which you notice once you try creating a real project with it. Cheers, -- M. Uli Kusterer http://www.weblayout.com/witness 'The Witnesses of TeachText are everywhere...' --- HELP SAVE HYPERCARD: --- Details at: http://www.hyperactivesw.com/SaveHC.html Sign: http://www.giguere.uqam.ca/petition/hcpetition.html
Re: Re: OODL: Re: What is it with XML?
In a message dated 11/2/99 9:54:34 PM, derobert wrote: We export to XML and... write a XML viewer for them? Why not just write the binary viewer -- saves a ton of overhead, the writing of yet another parser, and the writing of an exporter. Hark the spirit of OpenSource! If people want an XML file format, they can write it. It will have little, if any affect on your progress with the interpreter or The Witness's block file format. How hard could it be to convert between block file format and XML? Famous last words, yes, I know, but hey, it won't be our job, just the job of those who want XML.
Re: OODL: Re: What is it with XML?
At 11:39 AM -0800 on 10/31/99, Alain Farmer wrote: snip I we were writing a HTML editor, I'd agree: XML is the way to go. But we're not. DeRobertis: What advantage does an export to XML offer? Alain: See above. But it also occurs to me that, in some cases, XML might be preferred over binaries for SECURITY reasons. Binaries are executable while Not that type of binary. Your can't execute an OC stack anymore than, say, a ClarisWorks drawing. Both are binary formats, though. text-based XML is not (unless I am mistaken). A lot of commercial servers will not accept the transfer of binaries; only text and graphics. Graphics _are_ binary. Transfering them as text is a sure-fire way to corrupt them. Alain: Or with some automated text-editing tools, like a programming language for example. At which point you're probably better off with a binary format. Computers can deal with binary stuff better than text. No parsing and converting to do. Alain: Is the GUI of OpenKard currently available in the form of binaries? If not, when do you believe that they will be? My guess is that we are months away from this time. In the meantime, and in a matter of days, we could export stacks to XML and use a scripting language to rapidly prototype the GUI. Only the concept of the GUI, of course, not its implementation. We export to XML and... write a XML viewer for them? Why not just write the binary viewer -- saves a ton of overhead, the writing of yet another parser, and the writing of an exporter.
Re: [OODL: Re: Eric Engle (in French)]
Umm, if anyone can forward me copies of the PERL and GNU (or any other) licensing agreements, I can use them as models for what I draft. Yes, lawyers run around drafting documents based on previous documents. For real. Most contracts are drafted based on other contracts - there are books on this subject. They are called form books. Otherwise, enclosed a brief document on patent law. Patent is another possible protection, but one which I do not recommend as it is too costly and time consuming to be ordinarily worthwhile Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 patent*
Re: [OODL: Re: Eric Engle (in French)]
This letter is an attemtpt to answer some questions, briefly and succinctly: As long as you are perfectly clear with any potential author regarding the fact that this project is not for profit and not for pay i.e. unremunerated you should not have any problem about implied contracts for payment of services - ok? An express or implied contract is equally valid (enforceable). Judges are reluctant to imply contracts, but do so when the facts support it. So you are always better to be explicit - i.e. when in doubt say it in writing. Regarding MetaCard: I assume metacard will not be a partner - you should be explicit about this. However will the CEO of metacard be a partner? Kind of important to be very clear about the relationship between your partnership and metacard. Licenses are not really problematic. I think I understand what you want. But please send me anything else you have regarding ideas, persons to be involved - anything. A partnership can require unanimity of all members prior to decisions, or a simple majority, or whatever arrangement you desire. Also, please try to send me a copy of the PERL and GNU licensing agreements - I shall keep an eye out for them myself, as I do intend to use them as models. Ok? Please write with any questions - I am happy to help, Eric Engle Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1
