Re: [symfony-users] Re: Definitive guide for 1.3 and 1.4
The book is now available in the SVN repository, ready for anyone to contribute. More information are available on the symfony docs mailing-list: http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-docs/browse_thread/thread/66c6eb6c91ee6726 Fabien -- Fabien Potencier Sensio CEO - symfony lead developer sensiolabs.com | symfony-project.org | fabien.potencier.org Tél: +33 1 40 99 80 80 On 1/29/10 12:41 PM, Gareth McCumskey wrote: As it stands right now symfony has W more documentation than any comparable framework out there. I think you are suffering from a case of being spoilt too much by what symfony provides so that anything removed is a big deal. I started this discussion not as a complaint but as a query/suggestion as to the usefulness of the Definitive Guide. We really don't need your type in here slandering the hard working guys and girls that make symfony what it is! Hell, I wish MORE open source projects had the kind of dev team symfony has. On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 11:19 AM, Skyblazemarcomenozz...@gmail.com wrote: I don't want to spam or to offende anyone i just want to see the reality. Ok it is an open source project and bla blablabut the real fact is that this defenitive guide little update (with also two important chapters left out from the update) and imho a not decent api documentation won't do anything good for the project. Imho the project should do a radical change in minds. Bye On Jan 25, 7:29 pm, Lukas Kahwe Smithm...@pooteeweet.org wrote: On 25.01.2010, at 19:21, Fabien Potencier wrote: On 1/25/10 7:16 PM, Alexandru-Emil Lupu wrote: Fabien, there are still 1200+ tickets that not contain plugin in sumarry, and also the component is not plugins. I even saw a ticket id like 428 or less Feel free to help us reduce this number. Lets also add the open PHP bugs. Lets not forget that popularity, especially when providing gooddocumentation, invites beginners who tend to file bug reports left and right. But unfortunately popularity doesnt generate a proportional number of people that do the boring task of weeding through these tickets, setting them for need feedback, bogus or handing them off to a good candidate for fixing the bug along with a verified note. This is also why PHP itself has so many bug reports open. Does that mean that it doesnt matter to get this bug count down? Sure it would be awesome. Is this cause for alarm, let alone a panic or even put into question the development methodology? I think not. regards, Lukas Kahwe Smith m...@pooteeweet.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups symfony users group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups symfony users group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
Re: [symfony-users] Re: Definitive guide for 1.3 and 1.4
The main advantage of the definitive guide is that all information about symfony are available in one place. The right side tag cloud also help a lot to go to the correct part of the documentation. I still look at it to get references about cache, slot and other stuffs. Some information are only available in this book. Of course, as the book contains a lot of deprecated features; browsing the source code is also a great source of information not always very easy for a beginner. Glad to see the book is going to be ported to sf1.4 On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Fabien Potencier fabien.potenc...@symfony-project.com wrote: The book is now available in the SVN repository, ready for anyone to contribute. More information are available on the symfony docs mailing-list: http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-docs/browse_thread/thread/66c6eb6c91ee6726 Fabien -- Fabien Potencier Sensio CEO - symfony lead developer sensiolabs.com | symfony-project.org | fabien.potencier.org Tél: +33 1 40 99 80 80 On 1/29/10 12:41 PM, Gareth McCumskey wrote: As it stands right now symfony has W more documentation than any comparable framework out there. I think you are suffering from a case of being spoilt too much by what symfony provides so that anything removed is a big deal. I started this discussion not as a complaint but as a query/suggestion as to the usefulness of the Definitive Guide. We really don't need your type in here slandering the hard working guys and girls that make symfony what it is! Hell, I wish MORE open source projects had the kind of dev team symfony has. On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 11:19 AM, Skyblazemarcomenozz...@gmail.com wrote: I don't want to spam or to offende anyone i just want to see the reality. Ok it is an open source project and bla blablabut the real fact is that this defenitive guide little update (with also two important chapters left out from the update) and imho a not decent api documentation won't do anything good for the project. Imho the project should do a radical change in minds. Bye On Jan 25, 7:29 pm, Lukas Kahwe Smithm...@pooteeweet.org wrote: On 25.01.2010, at 19:21, Fabien Potencier wrote: On 1/25/10 7:16 PM, Alexandru-Emil Lupu wrote: Fabien, there are still 1200+ tickets that not contain plugin in sumarry, and also the component is not plugins. I even saw a ticket id like 428 or less Feel free to help us reduce this number. Lets also add the open PHP bugs. Lets not forget that popularity, especially when providing gooddocumentation, invites beginners who tend to file bug reports left and right. But unfortunately popularity doesnt generate a proportional number of people that do the boring task of weeding through these tickets, setting them for need feedback, bogus or handing them off to a good candidate for fixing the bug along with a verified note. This is also why PHP itself has so many bug reports open. Does that mean that it doesnt matter to get this bug count down? Sure it would be awesome. Is this cause for alarm, let alone a panic or even put into question the development methodology? I think not. regards, Lukas Kahwe Smith m...@pooteeweet.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups symfony users group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comsymfony-users%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups symfony users group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comsymfony-users%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en. -- Thomas Rabaix http://rabaix.net -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups symfony users group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
[symfony-users] Re: Definitive guide for 1.3 and 1.4
I don't want to spam or to offende anyone i just want to see the reality. Ok it is an open source project and bla blablabut the real fact is that this defenitive guide little update (with also two important chapters left out from the update) and imho a not decent api documentation won't do anything good for the project. Imho the project should do a radical change in minds. Bye On Jan 25, 7:29 pm, Lukas Kahwe Smith m...@pooteeweet.org wrote: On 25.01.2010, at 19:21, Fabien Potencier wrote: On 1/25/10 7:16 PM, Alexandru-Emil Lupu wrote: Fabien, there are still 1200+ tickets that not contain plugin in sumarry, and also the component is not plugins. I even saw a ticket id like 428 or less Feel free to help us reduce this number. Lets also add the open PHP bugs. Lets not forget that popularity, especially when providing gooddocumentation, invites beginners who tend to file bug reports left and right. But unfortunately popularity doesnt generate a proportional number of people that do the boring task of weeding through these tickets, setting them for need feedback, bogus or handing them off to a good candidate for fixing the bug along with a verified note. This is also why PHP itself has so many bug reports open. Does that mean that it doesnt matter to get this bug count down? Sure it would be awesome. Is this cause for alarm, let alone a panic or even put into question the development methodology? I think not. regards, Lukas Kahwe Smith m...@pooteeweet.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups symfony users group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
Re: [symfony-users] Re: Definitive guide for 1.3 and 1.4
On 1/29/10 10:19 AM, Skyblaze wrote: I don't want to spam or to offende anyone i just want to see the reality. Ok it is an open source project and bla blablabut the real fact is that this defenitive guide little update (with also two important chapters left out from the update) and imho a not decent api documentation won't do anything good for the project. Imho the project should do a radical change in minds. Bye What are you talking about? There is PLENTY of documentation for symfony 1.3/1.4. Let me reiterate that: PLENTY of documentation. Just have a look at the documentation section on the symfony website. You don't want to read it. I'm fine. Let's move on. Fabien On Jan 25, 7:29 pm, Lukas Kahwe Smithm...@pooteeweet.org wrote: On 25.01.2010, at 19:21, Fabien Potencier wrote: On 1/25/10 7:16 PM, Alexandru-Emil Lupu wrote: Fabien, there are still 1200+ tickets that not contain plugin in sumarry, and also the component is not plugins. I even saw a ticket id like 428 or less Feel free to help us reduce this number. Lets also add the open PHP bugs. Lets not forget that popularity, especially when providing gooddocumentation, invites beginners who tend to file bug reports left and right. But unfortunately popularity doesnt generate a proportional number of people that do the boring task of weeding through these tickets, setting them for need feedback, bogus or handing them off to a good candidate for fixing the bug along with a verified note. This is also why PHP itself has so many bug reports open. Does that mean that it doesnt matter to get this bug count down? Sure it would be awesome. Is this cause for alarm, let alone a panic or even put into question the development methodology? I think not. regards, Lukas Kahwe Smith m...@pooteeweet.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups symfony users group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
Re: [symfony-users] Re: Definitive guide for 1.3 and 1.4
On 1/29/10 10:19 AM, Skyblaze wrote: I don't want to spam or to offende anyone i just want to see the reality. Ok it is an open source project and bla blablabut the real fact is that this defenitive guide little update (with also two important chapters left out from the update) and imho a not decent api documentation won't do anything good for the project. Imho the project should do a radical change in minds. Bye Was too fast to send my previous answer. If you have a closer look at the Definitive Guide, you will see that we have done a LOT of changes since the first version for symfony 1.0. Yep, a LOT of changes. We have updated the book with the new features that comes with symfony 1.1 and symfony 1.2. And I'm doing the work for symfony 1.3 and symfony 1.4 right now. What else do you want? I'm quite tired of all these non-sense posts about the symfony documentation. And it has nothing to do with being Open-Source or not. Stop the troll. Thanks. Fabien On Jan 25, 7:29 pm, Lukas Kahwe Smithm...@pooteeweet.org wrote: On 25.01.2010, at 19:21, Fabien Potencier wrote: On 1/25/10 7:16 PM, Alexandru-Emil Lupu wrote: Fabien, there are still 1200+ tickets that not contain plugin in sumarry, and also the component is not plugins. I even saw a ticket id like 428 or less Feel free to help us reduce this number. Lets also add the open PHP bugs. Lets not forget that popularity, especially when providing gooddocumentation, invites beginners who tend to file bug reports left and right. But unfortunately popularity doesnt generate a proportional number of people that do the boring task of weeding through these tickets, setting them for need feedback, bogus or handing them off to a good candidate for fixing the bug along with a verified note. This is also why PHP itself has so many bug reports open. Does that mean that it doesnt matter to get this bug count down? Sure it would be awesome. Is this cause for alarm, let alone a panic or even put into question the development methodology? I think not. regards, Lukas Kahwe Smith m...@pooteeweet.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups symfony users group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
Re: [symfony-users] Re: Definitive guide for 1.3 and 1.4
As it stands right now symfony has W more documentation than any comparable framework out there. I think you are suffering from a case of being spoilt too much by what symfony provides so that anything removed is a big deal. I started this discussion not as a complaint but as a query/suggestion as to the usefulness of the Definitive Guide. We really don't need your type in here slandering the hard working guys and girls that make symfony what it is! Hell, I wish MORE open source projects had the kind of dev team symfony has. On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 11:19 AM, Skyblaze marcomenozz...@gmail.com wrote: I don't want to spam or to offende anyone i just want to see the reality. Ok it is an open source project and bla blablabut the real fact is that this defenitive guide little update (with also two important chapters left out from the update) and imho a not decent api documentation won't do anything good for the project. Imho the project should do a radical change in minds. Bye On Jan 25, 7:29 pm, Lukas Kahwe Smith m...@pooteeweet.org wrote: On 25.01.2010, at 19:21, Fabien Potencier wrote: On 1/25/10 7:16 PM, Alexandru-Emil Lupu wrote: Fabien, there are still 1200+ tickets that not contain plugin in sumarry, and also the component is not plugins. I even saw a ticket id like 428 or less Feel free to help us reduce this number. Lets also add the open PHP bugs. Lets not forget that popularity, especially when providing gooddocumentation, invites beginners who tend to file bug reports left and right. But unfortunately popularity doesnt generate a proportional number of people that do the boring task of weeding through these tickets, setting them for need feedback, bogus or handing them off to a good candidate for fixing the bug along with a verified note. This is also why PHP itself has so many bug reports open. Does that mean that it doesnt matter to get this bug count down? Sure it would be awesome. Is this cause for alarm, let alone a panic or even put into question the development methodology? I think not. regards, Lukas Kahwe Smith m...@pooteeweet.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups symfony users group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en. -- Gareth McCumskey http://garethmccumskey.blogspot.com twitter: @garethmcc -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups symfony users group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
[symfony-users] Re: Definitive guide for 1.3 and 1.4
I and others made this question several times but no real answer from the core team yet On Jan 25, 8:14 am, Gareth McCumskey gmccums...@gmail.com wrote: Hi guys, I was just wondering if there was any word on whether the Definitive Guide books available for symfony 1.0, 1.1 and 1.2 will be updated and published to reflect the changes for the new versions? -- Gareth McCumskeyhttp://garethmccumskey.blogspot.com twitter: @garethmcc -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups symfony users group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
Re: [symfony-users] Re: Definitive guide for 1.3 and 1.4
I understand, as well, that this is an open source project and that the community should pitch in to things like the documentation in order to update it but you see I am caught in a bit of a catch 22 situation. The book needs to be updated with all the latest changes, yet I need the book to know what all the latest changes are. Any word core team? On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 10:51 AM, Skyblaze marcomenozz...@gmail.com wrote: I and others made this question several times but no real answer from the core team yet On Jan 25, 8:14 am, Gareth McCumskey gmccums...@gmail.com wrote: Hi guys, I was just wondering if there was any word on whether the Definitive Guide books available for symfony 1.0, 1.1 and 1.2 will be updated and published to reflect the changes for the new versions? -- Gareth McCumskeyhttp://garethmccumskey.blogspot.com twitter: @garethmcc -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups symfony users group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en. -- Gareth McCumskey http://garethmccumskey.blogspot.com twitter: @garethmcc -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups symfony users group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
Re: [symfony-users] Re: Definitive guide for 1.3 and 1.4
Yes, i agree completely. Javi On 01/25/2010 11:29 AM, Gareth McCumskey wrote: I understand, as well, that this is an open source project and that the community should pitch in to things like the documentation in order to update it but you see I am caught in a bit of a catch 22 situation. The book needs to be updated with all the latest changes, yet I need the book to know what all the latest changes are. Any word core team? On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 10:51 AM, Skyblazemarcomenozz...@gmail.com wrote: I and others made this question several times but no real answer from the core team yet On Jan 25, 8:14 am, Gareth McCumskeygmccums...@gmail.com wrote: Hi guys, I was just wondering if there was any word on whether the Definitive Guide books available for symfony 1.0, 1.1 and 1.2 will be updated and published to reflect the changes for the new versions? -- Gareth McCumskeyhttp://garethmccumskey.blogspot.com twitter: @garethmcc -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups symfony users group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups symfony users group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
[symfony-users] Re: Definitive guide for 1.3 and 1.4
The question arose many times, but unfortunately there's no solution for now. Once I also asked if we can translate the book, since we already did it for the 1.0/1.1 version (it's in the wiki), but Fabien replied negatively. I think the book it's not in the plans of documentation anymore, maybe for political reasons? Of course, only Fabien can reply. I saw many moans in symfony forum about that I think we should do a collective effort to take this problem to attention of core team: we can keep to write here, but also write in forum and in the documentation group Massimiliano -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups symfony users group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
Re: [symfony-users] Re: Definitive guide for 1.3 and 1.4
Hi all, I'm listening... but I needed some time to think about the topic a bit more before answering. Here are my thoughts. But before I start ranting about the definitive guide, remember that all the work done on symfony is benevolent. It's true for my work, but also for the work of the many volunteers that help build the symfony community (all the core team members, the translators, the great people answering questions on the mailing-list, forum and IRC, people using symfony and spreading the word about it in their companies, people blogging or tweeting about it, and many more). But as days are only made of 24 hours unfortunately, we need even more help. Please, read ALL the information contained in this email BEFORE replying ;) The symfony core team, some great authors, and the translation teams spent a lot of time writing and translating documentation for the latest versions of symfony. And as a matter of fact, the symfony 1.3/1.4 versions are probably the most documented versions of symfony, ever. Want to get started with symfony? read the Getting started guide. Want to learn symfony step by step? read the Practical symfony book. Want to find everything about configuring symfony? Browse the Reference guide book. Want to learn what changed in the recent versions? Read the What's new? and How to upgrade tutorials. That's already a lot of documentation for beginners and advanced users. If you have a closer look, almost all the information found in the Definitive guide is available in one form or another in another piece of documentation I've just mentioned. But people keep asking me about the definitive guide. I don't really understand why, perhaps because of the title, or because it was the first available book. I really don't know... (ok, I'm lying a bit here) That said, I hear the complaints. And so, last week-end, I have re-read the definitive guide cover to cover. From my point of view, here are the main pros of the definitive guide book: * More time is spent describing the philosophy of the framework in the first two chapters (introduction to the MVC model, ...). * Each feature has its own chapter or section in the book. Looking for a specific feature documentation is easier (in Practical symfony for instance, it's more difficult to find things are they are described in the context of an application creation). and the main cons: * Difficult to learn symfony with the definitive guide as there is not a single example described from start to finish - only snippets of code are shown (the Practical symfony book is better in that respect). * Slightly outdated best practices (the Ajax chapter for instance, globally installing symfony with PEAR, and many other small things): the web evolves fast and things that were true four years ago are not true anymore nowadays. * Far from being complete or definitive. A lot of things are just not covered by the definitive guide (the mailer comes to my mind, but many other things are not even mentioned). That said, the book is not that outdated. And for good reasons. The symfony core team have spent a lot of time during the last few years updating its content for each new version of symfony. So, it's mostly already up-to-date for symfony 1.2. The good news is that symfony 1.3/1.4 is not that different from symfony 1.2 either. So, today, I decided to spend some time to update the definitive guide for symfony 1.3/1.4. The good news is that I have already updated most of the book content. I still need to work on Chapter 3 and 8 before committing this new version of the book, probably later this week (or even today if you give me some encouragement ;)). The following chapters are more tricky to update as they need a lot more work: * Chapter 8 - Inside The Model Layer: It only talks about Propel, and about a slightly outdated version of it. We also probably need to add a similar chapter for Doctrine. And the Propel vs Doctrine problem is also present in a lot of other sections of the book. * Chapter 10 - Forms: This chapter must be rewritten from scratch to describe the new form system. So, here is my proposal if you want to help us. As said before, I will update all the chapters, except 8 and 10. This version will be made available as a starting point for a more collaborative approach to the update. From there, if people want to give a hand at updating the book, please subscribe to the symfony documentation mailing-list (http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-docs), where we will coordinate the efforts (I cross-post this to the doc ml). You don't need to be symfony fluent to help updating the book. We need people for a lot of different tasks: * help proof-read the modifications * test snippet of code with symfony 1.3/1.4 * spot missing things * spot things that are not true anymore * ... Fabien -- Fabien Potencier Sensio CEO - symfony lead developer sensiolabs.com
Re: [symfony-users] Re: Definitive guide for 1.3 and 1.4
Hi Fabien, Thank you for the complete and descriptive response; we really do appreciate it. Just to give my take on why the Definitive Guide is so good. Its for one of the reasons that you mentioned, that its easier to find a description of the various aspects as the Practical guide looks at symfony from the perspective of a single application. One of the biggest reasons I like the Definitive Guide isn't because it was 100% definitive (so feel free to change the name if you like) but the fact that it at the very least covers most of the symfony framework even if it references to another source to get more complete information. The Definitive Guide is something you can read from start to finish. Its a great way to get clued up on what symfony's capabilities are and not necessarily every implementation of the framework. Its a far more general look at what makes symfony tick, rather than the very application specific nature of the practical guide, but also doesn't go too deep into implementation that people feel a little lost, like the Advent calendar and API documentation can be. If I just read through the Definitive guide I'll understand in better detail what the Advent calendar documentation is referring to, as well as understand why a specific feature of the Practical Guide application was coded a specific way, to all the way into understanding the various interactions between the classes described in the API docs better without having to guess as much. We in fact still use the Definitive Guide to train new developers into the world of symfony. Thanks for taking the time to work on it and I will definitely look into how I can contribute updating it further. On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Fabien Potencier fabien.potenc...@symfony-project.com wrote: Hi all, I'm listening... but I needed some time to think about the topic a bit more before answering. Here are my thoughts. But before I start ranting about the definitive guide, remember that all the work done on symfony is benevolent. It's true for my work, but also for the work of the many volunteers that help build the symfony community (all the core team members, the translators, the great people answering questions on the mailing-list, forum and IRC, people using symfony and spreading the word about it in their companies, people blogging or tweeting about it, and many more). But as days are only made of 24 hours unfortunately, we need even more help. Please, read ALL the information contained in this email BEFORE replying ;) The symfony core team, some great authors, and the translation teams spent a lot of time writing and translating documentation for the latest versions of symfony. And as a matter of fact, the symfony 1.3/1.4 versions are probably the most documented versions of symfony, ever. Want to get started with symfony? read the Getting started guide. Want to learn symfony step by step? read the Practical symfony book. Want to find everything about configuring symfony? Browse the Reference guide book. Want to learn what changed in the recent versions? Read the What's new? and How to upgrade tutorials. That's already a lot of documentation for beginners and advanced users. If you have a closer look, almost all the information found in the Definitive guide is available in one form or another in another piece of documentation I've just mentioned. But people keep asking me about the definitive guide. I don't really understand why, perhaps because of the title, or because it was the first available book. I really don't know... (ok, I'm lying a bit here) That said, I hear the complaints. And so, last week-end, I have re-read the definitive guide cover to cover. From my point of view, here are the main pros of the definitive guide book: * More time is spent describing the philosophy of the framework in the first two chapters (introduction to the MVC model, ...). * Each feature has its own chapter or section in the book. Looking for a specific feature documentation is easier (in Practical symfony for instance, it's more difficult to find things are they are described in the context of an application creation). and the main cons: * Difficult to learn symfony with the definitive guide as there is not a single example described from start to finish - only snippets of code are shown (the Practical symfony book is better in that respect). * Slightly outdated best practices (the Ajax chapter for instance, globally installing symfony with PEAR, and many other small things): the web evolves fast and things that were true four years ago are not true anymore nowadays. * Far from being complete or definitive. A lot of things are just not covered by the definitive guide (the mailer comes to my mind, but many other things are not even mentioned). That said, the book is not that outdated. And for good reasons. The symfony core team have spent a lot of time during the last few years
Re: [symfony-users] Re: Definitive guide for 1.3 and 1.4
Hi all, I am totally agree with Fabien, but i would like to add some completion on what Fabien said. Is true.. i still feel that something has not been said. Even that is a lot of documentation available, and there is one nice tutorial (Jobeet) which is available for sf 1.3 and 1.4, the people still asking (on the list or on IRC) different things that are already in the documentation, and from here i can conclude just one thing: not all the people is reading the documentation before start asking around different things. I am not saying that the all documentation should be neglected, but i would suggest more than that. The members to help the core team more than they are doing it now. For example, there are around 1600 opened tickets to various symfony versions that are expecting a resolution from the core team. Of course, as Fabien pointed ... the day has only 24 hours ... If it would have 48, we would complaining the same situation. I know that writing this i might steal this topic, but, if we all would help a little bit by fixing the tickets there would give us an insight of the symfony core, and might help us to understand better some of the symfony parts. If you cannot fix (as in i do know 0 symfony), you could help other fix them by point them and also maybe providing functional / unit tests to replicate the issue / or provide patches for documentation typo and other small stuff. having a little number of tickets opened, symfony core may focus on the new version. Another way of helping, might be trying to do (a) my first symfony project , in which you can try provide the team and others users any problems encountered while you have developed the application. Making this, would help sfCore to see what else should be specified in the documentation. This way, (any of) you give back something to symfony framework. If Fabien wants and allows me, i could try to restart the 1Day1Ticket project, but for that i would need some users that are willing to help. Regards, Alecs On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Fabien Potencier fabien.potenc...@symfony-project.com wrote: Hi all, I'm listening... but I needed some time to think about the topic a bit more before answering. Here are my thoughts. But before I start ranting about the definitive guide, remember that all the work done on symfony is benevolent. It's true for my work, but also for the work of the many volunteers that help build the symfony community (all the core team members, the translators, the great people answering questions on the mailing-list, forum and IRC, people using symfony and spreading the word about it in their companies, people blogging or tweeting about it, and many more). But as days are only made of 24 hours unfortunately, we need even more help. Please, read ALL the information contained in this email BEFORE replying ;) The symfony core team, some great authors, and the translation teams spent a lot of time writing and translating documentation for the latest versions of symfony. And as a matter of fact, the symfony 1.3/1.4 versions are probably the most documented versions of symfony, ever. Want to get started with symfony? read the Getting started guide. Want to learn symfony step by step? read the Practical symfony book. Want to find everything about configuring symfony? Browse the Reference guide book. Want to learn what changed in the recent versions? Read the What's new? and How to upgrade tutorials. That's already a lot of documentation for beginners and advanced users. If you have a closer look, almost all the information found in the Definitive guide is available in one form or another in another piece of documentation I've just mentioned. But people keep asking me about the definitive guide. I don't really understand why, perhaps because of the title, or because it was the first available book. I really don't know... (ok, I'm lying a bit here) That said, I hear the complaints. And so, last week-end, I have re-read the definitive guide cover to cover. From my point of view, here are the main pros of the definitive guide book: * More time is spent describing the philosophy of the framework in the first two chapters (introduction to the MVC model, ...). * Each feature has its own chapter or section in the book. Looking for a specific feature documentation is easier (in Practical symfony for instance, it's more difficult to find things are they are described in the context of an application creation). and the main cons: * Difficult to learn symfony with the definitive guide as there is not a single example described from start to finish - only snippets of code are shown (the Practical symfony book is better in that respect). * Slightly outdated best practices (the Ajax chapter for instance, globally installing symfony with PEAR, and many other small things): the web evolves fast and things that were true four years ago are not true anymore nowadays. * Far
Re: [symfony-users] Re: Definitive guide for 1.3 and 1.4
On 1/25/10 4:18 PM, Alexandru-Emil Lupu wrote: If Fabien wants and allows me, i could try to restart the 1Day1Ticket project, but for that i would need some users that are willing to help. I think that there is no need for a 1Day1Ticket initiative to start helping. Asking people to fix 1 ticket a day is bound to fail. I would rather prefer to have a large number of people helping from time to time, the best they can. Let's take one simple example, related to the Definitive guide: there is a ticket (somewhere) that ask for the screenshots that illustrate the definitive guide to be updated (for new symfony versions and to have images in color). That's something very easy to do, for anyone willing to help. And it provides great value to the book. Sure, it takes a lot of time, but that's a good starting point if you want to help us improve symfony. Fabien -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups symfony users group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
Re: [symfony-users] Re: Definitive guide for 1.3 and 1.4
About i have told a little bit earlier, i already have started to try select some tickets that needs to be checked or are a little bit simple. Unfortunately, even i would want to help (which i did in the past), i cannot due to a thight shedule and a second job. I will try however to select some tickets that are from plugins made by the sf Team or core that a little bit easy, and i will try to make a new thread and see if anyone id bidding for. This might help you and your team focus on SF 2. Alecs On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 5:28 PM, Fabien Potencier fabien.potenc...@symfony-project.com wrote: On 1/25/10 4:18 PM, Alexandru-Emil Lupu wrote: If Fabien wants and allows me, i could try to restart the 1Day1Ticket project, but for that i would need some users that are willing to help. I think that there is no need for a 1Day1Ticket initiative to start helping. Asking people to fix 1 ticket a day is bound to fail. I would rather prefer to have a large number of people helping from time to time, the best they can. Let's take one simple example, related to the Definitive guide: there is a ticket (somewhere) that ask for the screenshots that illustrate the definitive guide to be updated (for new symfony versions and to have images in color). That's something very easy to do, for anyone willing to help. And it provides great value to the book. Sure, it takes a lot of time, but that's a good starting point if you want to help us improve symfony. Fabien -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups symfony users group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en. -- Have a nice day! Alecs As programmers create bigger better idiot proof programs, so the universe creates bigger better idiots! I am on web: http://www.alecslupu.ro/ I am on twitter: http://twitter.com/alecslupu I am on linkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/alecslupu Tel: (+4)0722 621 280 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups symfony users group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
[symfony-users] Re: Definitive guide for 1.3 and 1.4
So i don't understand if you (Fabien) will release/publish the updated defenitive guide this week even if chapters 8 and 10 are not yet updated? Or You will publish it only when these two chapters are also updated by the community? On Jan 25, 4:28 pm, Fabien Potencier fabien.potenc...@symfony- project.com wrote: On 1/25/10 4:18 PM, Alexandru-Emil Lupu wrote: If Fabien wants and allows me, i could try to restart the 1Day1Ticket project, but for that i would need some users that are willing to help. I think that there is no need for a 1Day1Ticket initiative to start helping. Asking people to fix 1 ticket a day is bound to fail. I would rather prefer to have a large number of people helping from time to time, the best they can. Let's take one simple example, related to the Definitive guide: there is a ticket (somewhere) that ask for the screenshots that illustrate the definitive guide to be updated (for new symfony versions and to have images in color). That's something very easy to do, for anyone willing to help. And it provides great value to the book. Sure, it takes a lot of time, but that's a good starting point if you want to help us improve symfony. Fabien -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups symfony users group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
Re: [symfony-users] Re: Definitive guide for 1.3 and 1.4
On 1/25/10 4:45 PM, Skyblaze wrote: So i don't understand if you (Fabien) will release/publish the updated defenitive guide this week even if chapters 8 and 10 are not yet updated? Or You will publish it only when these two chapters are also updated by the community? I will commit the updated book this week (without the updates to chapters 8 and 10), so that the community can step in and help me polishing this new version. Fabien -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups symfony users group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
Re: [symfony-users] Re: Definitive guide for 1.3 and 1.4
Hi, Thanks Fabien for your words. I think every software should have its official manual updated even if NOBODY is reading it. I think 1600 open tickets are too much tickets. I think maybe 1.3 and 1.4 could wait some?. Javi On 01/25/2010 04:52 PM, Fabien Potencier wrote: On 1/25/10 4:45 PM, Skyblaze wrote: So i don't understand if you (Fabien) will release/publish the updated defenitive guide this week even if chapters 8 and 10 are not yet updated? Or You will publish it only when these two chapters are also updated by the community? I will commit the updated book this week (without the updates to chapters 8 and 10), so that the community can step in and help me polishing this new version. Fabien -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups symfony users group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
Re: [symfony-users] Re: Definitive guide for 1.3 and 1.4
On 1/25/10 6:00 PM, Javier Garcia wrote: Hi, Thanks Fabien for your words. I think every software should have its official manual updated even if NOBODY is reading it. lol I think 1600 open tickets are too much tickets. Many/most of these tickets are for plugins not maintained by the core team. You are most than welcomed to help us as much as you can. I think every user should help the community constructively in one way or another. Fabien I think maybe 1.3 and 1.4 could wait some?. Javi On 01/25/2010 04:52 PM, Fabien Potencier wrote: On 1/25/10 4:45 PM, Skyblaze wrote: So i don't understand if you (Fabien) will release/publish the updated defenitive guide this week even if chapters 8 and 10 are not yet updated? Or You will publish it only when these two chapters are also updated by the community? I will commit the updated book this week (without the updates to chapters 8 and 10), so that the community can step in and help me polishing this new version. Fabien -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups symfony users group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
