Re: [systemd-devel] [PATCH] core: make parsing of chkconfig headers conditional

2014-04-23 Thread Lennart Poettering
On Tue, 25.03.14 19:07, Michael Biebl (mbi...@gmail.com) wrote:

 
 2014-03-25 0:14 GMT+01:00 Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net:
  On Mon, 24.03.14 23:59, Michael Biebl (mbi...@gmail.com) wrote:
  I think the priority information is irrelevant in this particular
  issue. It's the discrepancy regarding runlevel information.
 
  So I doubt your patch makes a difference, but I'll double check.
 
  I am tempted to also drop the runlevel parsing from the LSB and
  chkconfig headers. After all they are mostly irrelevant since what is
  linked in /etc/rc?.d/ is what matters, and not the stuff in the init
  script themselves.
 
  Let me now if this would make things work then for you. If so, I'll drop
  this too then.
 
 I think this might work, without having actually tested it.
 That said, if you drop runlevel and priority parsing from the
 chkconfig header, is there anything useful left in # chkconfig: ?

Nope, there wouldn't be.

 
 Regarding # pidfile:, it's basically the same problem, ie. the mere
 existence (on Debian) doesn't necessarily mean it is correct.
 The result could be, that we mark a service as Type=forking pointing
 it at the wrong pid file, leading to the service not being tracked
 properly. I'd have to check all packages affected by this [0], to see
 if the information in there is actually correct.
 
 [0] http://codesearch.debian.net/search?q=%23+pidfile%3A

I am pretty sure that this is something to fix in the init scripts
rather than to drop entirely. the pidfile option is simply increadibly
useful.

I have now added a todo list item to drop chkconfig parsing entirely.

Lennart

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Re: [systemd-devel] [PATCH] core: make parsing of chkconfig headers conditional

2014-03-25 Thread Frederic Crozat
Le lundi 24 mars 2014 à 19:24 +0100, Lennart Poettering a écrit :
 On Mon, 24.03.14 19:20, Frederic Crozat (fcro...@suse.com) wrote:
 
  Le lundi 24 mars 2014 à 18:58 +0100, Lennart Poettering a écrit :
  
   It's simply that the PID file info in the chkconfig header is just
   increadibly useful (since it allows us to identify the main process of a
   service) and I'd really like to make sure we make use of it wherever
   possible. So that chkconfig header bit is what I am interested in, not
   the priority number...
  
  I must confess I stole the PID file info part and added it in the LSB
  header parsing, because we sometime have initscripts which such
  informations (which is good) and we also sometime would like to have
  this information handy, despite the fact we use LSB headers (and not
  Fedora ones)..
 
 I can't and won't make you stop doing this, but let me just say that I
 really don't like that you do this, and that this is something I would
 never merge upstream:
 
 We really don't want to extend old standards with private systemd
 extensions, if we consider those old standards obsolete anyway. If
 people want to use systemd features they should use systemd
 files. Compatibility we do for the sake of compatibility only, not do
 extend standards we consider deeply flawed, and that we'd prfer if they
 went away sooner rather than later.

Unfortunately, reality not always mixes well with such principles. You
are fortunate to have support for this particular header in your flavor
of initscripts and we aren't. And there has some particular times where
we need this information and we can't just replace initscripts with a
service counterpart (specially when you find issues during maintenance
update).

I'll be happy when we are able to drop those changes (or move them to
generator) but we aren't there yet.
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Re: [systemd-devel] [PATCH] core: make parsing of chkconfig headers conditional

2014-03-25 Thread Michael Biebl
2014-03-25 0:14 GMT+01:00 Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net:
 On Mon, 24.03.14 23:59, Michael Biebl (mbi...@gmail.com) wrote:
 I think the priority information is irrelevant in this particular
 issue. It's the discrepancy regarding runlevel information.

 So I doubt your patch makes a difference, but I'll double check.

 I am tempted to also drop the runlevel parsing from the LSB and
 chkconfig headers. After all they are mostly irrelevant since what is
 linked in /etc/rc?.d/ is what matters, and not the stuff in the init
 script themselves.

 Let me now if this would make things work then for you. If so, I'll drop
 this too then.

I think this might work, without having actually tested it.
That said, if you drop runlevel and priority parsing from the
chkconfig header, is there anything useful left in # chkconfig: ?

Regarding # pidfile:, it's basically the same problem, ie. the mere
existence (on Debian) doesn't necessarily mean it is correct.
The result could be, that we mark a service as Type=forking pointing
it at the wrong pid file, leading to the service not being tracked
properly. I'd have to check all packages affected by this [0], to see
if the information in there is actually correct.

[0] http://codesearch.debian.net/search?q=%23+pidfile%3A


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Re: [systemd-devel] [PATCH] core: make parsing of chkconfig headers conditional

2014-03-24 Thread Lennart Poettering
On Mon, 24.03.14 14:00, Michael Biebl (mbi...@gmail.com) wrote:

 Don't parse Red Hat style chkconfig headers if chkconfig support is
 disabled via --disable-chkconfig.

Hmm, I am not overly hapy with adding even more ifdefs to the
code... i'd rather see less ifdefs...

Thus, what's the rationale here? Why shouldn't the chkconfig header be
read when it exists? I mean, stuff like the description string really
shouldn't hurt on debian either, should an init script carry the
header...

Lennart

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Re: [systemd-devel] [PATCH] core: make parsing of chkconfig headers conditional

2014-03-24 Thread Michael Biebl
2014-03-24 17:11 GMT+01:00 Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net:
 On Mon, 24.03.14 14:00, Michael Biebl (mbi...@gmail.com) wrote:

 Don't parse Red Hat style chkconfig headers if chkconfig support is
 disabled via --disable-chkconfig.

 Hmm, I am not overly hapy with adding even more ifdefs to the
 code... i'd rather see less ifdefs...

 Thus, what's the rationale here? Why shouldn't the chkconfig header be
 read when it exists? I mean, stuff like the description string really
 shouldn't hurt on debian either, should an init script carry the
 header...

 Lennart

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Re: [systemd-devel] [PATCH] core: make parsing of chkconfig headers conditional

2014-03-24 Thread Michael Biebl
2014-03-24 17:11 GMT+01:00 Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net:
 On Mon, 24.03.14 14:00, Michael Biebl (mbi...@gmail.com) wrote:

 Don't parse Red Hat style chkconfig headers if chkconfig support is
 disabled via --disable-chkconfig.

 Hmm, I am not overly hapy with adding even more ifdefs to the
 code... i'd rather see less ifdefs...

I can rip out the chkconfig parsing completely, if that is what you want.

 Thus, what's the rationale here? Why shouldn't the chkconfig header be
 read when it exists? I mean, stuff like the description string really
 shouldn't hurt on debian either, should an init script carry the
 header...

The reasoning here is, that on distributions which don't use chkconfig
(like Debian), there might be SysV init scripts with chkconfig headers
which are completely untested and actually break the boot process. See
[0] for an example.
We really shouldn't parse chkconfig headers on distros which don't
support chkconfig and decided to build systemd with
--disable-chkconfig.


[0] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=634472#47
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Re: [systemd-devel] [PATCH] core: make parsing of chkconfig headers conditional

2014-03-24 Thread Lennart Poettering
On Mon, 24.03.14 17:17, Michael Biebl (mbi...@gmail.com) wrote:

 
 2014-03-24 17:11 GMT+01:00 Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net:
  On Mon, 24.03.14 14:00, Michael Biebl (mbi...@gmail.com) wrote:
 
  Don't parse Red Hat style chkconfig headers if chkconfig support is
  disabled via --disable-chkconfig.
 
  Hmm, I am not overly hapy with adding even more ifdefs to the
  code... i'd rather see less ifdefs...
 
 I can rip out the chkconfig parsing completely, if that is what you
 want.

Nah, we need to keep it in for fedora/rhel I figure, for now.

 
  Thus, what's the rationale here? Why shouldn't the chkconfig header be
  read when it exists? I mean, stuff like the description string really
  shouldn't hurt on debian either, should an init script carry the
  header...
 
 The reasoning here is, that on distributions which don't use chkconfig
 (like Debian), there might be SysV init scripts with chkconfig headers
 which are completely untested and actually break the boot process. See
 [0] for an example.
 We really shouldn't parse chkconfig headers on distros which don't
 support chkconfig and decided to build systemd with
 --disable-chkconfig.

Well, but we are a lot more dependent on correct headers than other
parsers anyway... For example, the LSB deps have traditionally been much
less accurately followed than they are now... 

I mean, we don't claim compatibility with scripts with broken headers,
anyway...

Lennart

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Re: [systemd-devel] [PATCH] core: make parsing of chkconfig headers conditional

2014-03-24 Thread Michael Biebl
2014-03-24 17:21 GMT+01:00 Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net:
 Well, but we are a lot more dependent on correct headers than other
 parsers anyway... For example, the LSB deps have traditionally been much
 less accurately followed than they are now...

 I mean, we don't claim compatibility with scripts with broken headers,
 anyway...

Sorry, but I don't get your point.

If I disable chkconfig support, then I don't want the chkconfig
headers parsed. Isn't that quite obvious?


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Re: [systemd-devel] [PATCH] core: make parsing of chkconfig headers conditional

2014-03-24 Thread Lennart Poettering
On Mon, 24.03.14 17:25, Michael Biebl (mbi...@gmail.com) wrote:

 2014-03-24 17:21 GMT+01:00 Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net:
  Well, but we are a lot more dependent on correct headers than other
  parsers anyway... For example, the LSB deps have traditionally been much
  less accurately followed than they are now...
 
  I mean, we don't claim compatibility with scripts with broken headers,
  anyway...
 
 Sorry, but I don't get your point.
 
 If I disable chkconfig support, then I don't want the chkconfig
 headers parsed. Isn't that quite obvious?

Well, it's two different things:

a) defer to /sbin/chkconfig if systemctl enable is used on a sysv
   service.

b) take into account any information included in the sysv header that
   exists.

Turning off chkconfig support does a), not b). And I'd really prefer if
sysv scripts would behave the same way on all systemd installations... I
mean that's what we try to do after all, provide a unified interface
for developers...

Lennart

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Re: [systemd-devel] [PATCH] core: make parsing of chkconfig headers conditional

2014-03-24 Thread Michael Biebl
2014-03-24 17:21 GMT+01:00 Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net:
 On Mon, 24.03.14 17:17, Michael Biebl (mbi...@gmail.com) wrote:


 2014-03-24 17:11 GMT+01:00 Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net:
  On Mon, 24.03.14 14:00, Michael Biebl (mbi...@gmail.com) wrote:
 
  Don't parse Red Hat style chkconfig headers if chkconfig support is
  disabled via --disable-chkconfig.
 
  Hmm, I am not overly hapy with adding even more ifdefs to the
  code... i'd rather see less ifdefs...

 I can rip out the chkconfig parsing completely, if that is what you
 want.

 Nah, we need to keep it in for fedora/rhel I figure, for now.

So you're saying as long as it benefits Fedora, having ifdefs is fine,
but not for other distros?


  Thus, what's the rationale here? Why shouldn't the chkconfig header be
  read when it exists? I mean, stuff like the description string really
  shouldn't hurt on debian either, should an init script carry the
  header...

 The reasoning here is, that on distributions which don't use chkconfig
 (like Debian), there might be SysV init scripts with chkconfig headers
 which are completely untested and actually break the boot process. See
 [0] for an example.
 We really shouldn't parse chkconfig headers on distros which don't
 support chkconfig and decided to build systemd with
 --disable-chkconfig.

 Well, but we are a lot more dependent on correct headers than other
 parsers anyway...

we = Fedora? Don't quite get your point in this context.

 For example, the LSB deps have traditionally been much
 less accurately followed than they are now...

Regarding Debian, the LSB headers are the only ones which are actually
tested and accurate.
If there are chkconfig headers in the init scripts there are most
likely leftovers and are completely untested.


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Re: [systemd-devel] [PATCH] core: make parsing of chkconfig headers conditional

2014-03-24 Thread Michael Biebl
2014-03-24 17:36 GMT+01:00 Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net:
 On Mon, 24.03.14 17:25, Michael Biebl (mbi...@gmail.com) wrote:

 2014-03-24 17:21 GMT+01:00 Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net:
  Well, but we are a lot more dependent on correct headers than other
  parsers anyway... For example, the LSB deps have traditionally been much
  less accurately followed than they are now...
 
  I mean, we don't claim compatibility with scripts with broken headers,
  anyway...

 Sorry, but I don't get your point.

 If I disable chkconfig support, then I don't want the chkconfig
 headers parsed. Isn't that quite obvious?

 Well, it's two different things:

 a) defer to /sbin/chkconfig if systemctl enable is used on a sysv
service.

 b) take into account any information included in the sysv header that
exists.

 Turning off chkconfig support does a), not b). And I'd really prefer if
 sysv scripts would behave the same way on all systemd installations... I
 mean that's what we try to do after all, provide a unified interface
 for developers...

Since Debian doesn't have chkconfig, sysv init script already behave
differently when it comes to a), so the point about having sysv init
scripts behave the same on all systemd installations is moot.

It really doesn't make sense to parse the chkconfig headers on distros
which don't support that interface. The result is worse then not
parsing it at all.
I don't mint terribly if you want to keep the # description: parsing
in, but the # chkconfig: and # pidfile: parsing should not be done on
distros where does headers never have been used/tested.



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Re: [systemd-devel] [PATCH] core: make parsing of chkconfig headers conditional

2014-03-24 Thread Lennart Poettering
On Mon, 24.03.14 17:37, Michael Biebl (mbi...@gmail.com) wrote:

   Hmm, I am not overly hapy with adding even more ifdefs to the
   code... i'd rather see less ifdefs...
 
  I can rip out the chkconfig parsing completely, if that is what you
  want.
 
  Nah, we need to keep it in for fedora/rhel I figure, for now.
 
 So you're saying as long as it benefits Fedora, having ifdefs is fine,
 but not for other distros?

No. I mentioned before that I'd be happy to add code that defers to
update-rcd on Debian, instead of chkconfig. No problem with that. If
Debian has worthwile header extensions I'd parse them too, if they are
Okish to support. It's really not about Debian vs. Fedora.

The sysv support really should be removed from PID 1 anyway, and be
placed in a generator, so that the legacy stuff doesn't pollute PID 1
anymore...  But I never found the time to do that...

Lennart

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Re: [systemd-devel] [PATCH] core: make parsing of chkconfig headers conditional

2014-03-24 Thread Michael Biebl
2014-03-24 17:46 GMT+01:00 Michael Biebl mbi...@gmail.com:
 sysv scripts would behave the same way on all systemd installations... I
 mean that's what we try to do after all, provide a unified interface
 for developers...

 Since Debian doesn't have chkconfig, sysv init script already behave
 differently when it comes to a), so the point about having sysv init
 scripts behave the same on all systemd installations is moot.

It also needs to be pointed out that SysV init scripts are
unfortunately anything but distribution agnostic.
Be it the location, return codes, shell libraries used etc. So saying
that a given SysV init script should work and behave consistent on all
systemd installations is simple an unrealistic expectation.
The legacy SysV support should rather try to make the *existing* SysV
init scripts run as smoothly as possible.



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Re: [systemd-devel] [PATCH] core: make parsing of chkconfig headers conditional

2014-03-24 Thread Lennart Poettering
On Mon, 24.03.14 17:46, Michael Biebl (mbi...@gmail.com) wrote:

  Turning off chkconfig support does a), not b). And I'd really prefer if
  sysv scripts would behave the same way on all systemd installations... I
  mean that's what we try to do after all, provide a unified interface
  for developers...
 
 Since Debian doesn't have chkconfig, sysv init script already behave
 differently when it comes to a), so the point about having sysv init
 scripts behave the same on all systemd installations is moot.

Well, but that's a difference in install time behaviour, not runtime
behaviour...

 It really doesn't make sense to parse the chkconfig headers on distros
 which don't support that interface. The result is worse then not
 parsing it at all.
 I don't mint terribly if you want to keep the # description: parsing
 in, but the # chkconfig: and # pidfile: parsing should not be done on
 distros where does headers never have been used/tested.

So, what about this: what actually breaks for you? the runlevel info or
the priority info? Or something else from the chkconfig header?

We could probably just drop the priority info parsing entirely, since it
is pretty useless these days: as no native units carry a priority number
we cannot make any useful use of the chkconfig priority anyway
anymore... It is only useful to order sysv scripts with such a number
against other sysv scripts with such a number, but not against any other
service...

Hence, given it is broken/useless already, if we drop that specific part
of chkconfig support entirely, would that be enough for your issue as
well?

It's simply that the PID file info in the chkconfig header is just
increadibly useful (since it allows us to identify the main process of a
service) and I'd really like to make sure we make use of it wherever
possible. So that chkconfig header bit is what I am interested in, not
the priority number...

Lennart

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Re: [systemd-devel] [PATCH] core: make parsing of chkconfig headers conditional

2014-03-24 Thread Lennart Poettering
On Mon, 24.03.14 19:20, Frederic Crozat (fcro...@suse.com) wrote:

 Le lundi 24 mars 2014 à 18:58 +0100, Lennart Poettering a écrit :
 
  It's simply that the PID file info in the chkconfig header is just
  increadibly useful (since it allows us to identify the main process of a
  service) and I'd really like to make sure we make use of it wherever
  possible. So that chkconfig header bit is what I am interested in, not
  the priority number...
 
 I must confess I stole the PID file info part and added it in the LSB
 header parsing, because we sometime have initscripts which such
 informations (which is good) and we also sometime would like to have
 this information handy, despite the fact we use LSB headers (and not
 Fedora ones)..

I can't and won't make you stop doing this, but let me just say that I
really don't like that you do this, and that this is something I would
never merge upstream:

We really don't want to extend old standards with private systemd
extensions, if we consider those old standards obsolete anyway. If
people want to use systemd features they should use systemd
files. Compatibility we do for the sake of compatibility only, not do
extend standards we consider deeply flawed, and that we'd prfer if they
went away sooner rather than later.

Lennart

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Re: [systemd-devel] [PATCH] core: make parsing of chkconfig headers conditional

2014-03-24 Thread Frederic Crozat
Le lundi 24 mars 2014 à 18:58 +0100, Lennart Poettering a écrit :

 It's simply that the PID file info in the chkconfig header is just
 increadibly useful (since it allows us to identify the main process of a
 service) and I'd really like to make sure we make use of it wherever
 possible. So that chkconfig header bit is what I am interested in, not
 the priority number...

I must confess I stole the PID file info part and added it in the LSB
header parsing, because we sometime have initscripts which such
informations (which is good) and we also sometime would like to have
this information handy, despite the fact we use LSB headers (and not
Fedora ones)..

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Re: [systemd-devel] [PATCH] core: make parsing of chkconfig headers conditional

2014-03-24 Thread Lennart Poettering
On Mon, 24.03.14 19:04, Michael Biebl (mbi...@gmail.com) wrote:

 
  We could probably just drop the priority info parsing entirely, since it
  is pretty useless these days: as no native units carry a priority number
  we cannot make any useful use of the chkconfig priority anyway
  anymore... It is only useful to order sysv scripts with such a number
  against other sysv scripts with such a number, but not against any other
  service...
 
  Hence, given it is broken/useless already, if we drop that specific part
  of chkconfig support entirely, would that be enough for your issue as
  well?
 
 See the bug report I posted earlier.
 The discrepancy between the chkconfig head and the LSB header (the
 latter being the correct one) caused a dependency loop and ultimately
 dbus.socket to be dropped.

So this is about the priority number and nothing else? 

If so, then I am happy to take a patch that drops taking the chkconfig
priority number into account entirely, while leaving the rest of
chkconfig parsing in there, unconditionally. That should fix the
immediate bug you are encountering, right?

Lennart

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Re: [systemd-devel] [PATCH] core: make parsing of chkconfig headers conditional

2014-03-24 Thread Michael Biebl
 We could probably just drop the priority info parsing entirely, since it
 is pretty useless these days: as no native units carry a priority number
 we cannot make any useful use of the chkconfig priority anyway
 anymore... It is only useful to order sysv scripts with such a number
 against other sysv scripts with such a number, but not against any other
 service...

 Hence, given it is broken/useless already, if we drop that specific part
 of chkconfig support entirely, would that be enough for your issue as
 well?

See the bug report I posted earlier.
The discrepancy between the chkconfig head and the LSB header (the
latter being the correct one) caused a dependency loop and ultimately
dbus.socket to be dropped.




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Re: [systemd-devel] [PATCH] core: make parsing of chkconfig headers conditional

2014-03-24 Thread Lennart Poettering
On Mon, 24.03.14 19:21, Lennart Poettering (lenn...@poettering.net) wrote:

  See the bug report I posted earlier.
  The discrepancy between the chkconfig head and the LSB header (the
  latter being the correct one) caused a dependency loop and ultimately
  dbus.socket to be dropped.
 
 So this is about the priority number and nothing else? 
 
 If so, then I am happy to take a patch that drops taking the chkconfig
 priority number into account entirely, while leaving the rest of
 chkconfig parsing in there, unconditionally. That should fix the
 immediate bug you are encountering, right?

I have commited such a change now. Can you verify if this improves
things for you?

Thanks,

Lennart

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Re: [systemd-devel] [PATCH] core: make parsing of chkconfig headers conditional

2014-03-24 Thread Michael Biebl
2014-03-24 19:58 GMT+01:00 Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net:
 On Mon, 24.03.14 19:21, Lennart Poettering (lenn...@poettering.net) wrote:

  See the bug report I posted earlier.
  The discrepancy between the chkconfig head and the LSB header (the
  latter being the correct one) caused a dependency loop and ultimately
  dbus.socket to be dropped.

 So this is about the priority number and nothing else?

 If so, then I am happy to take a patch that drops taking the chkconfig
 priority number into account entirely, while leaving the rest of
 chkconfig parsing in there, unconditionally. That should fix the
 immediate bug you are encountering, right?

 I have commited such a change now. Can you verify if this improves
 things for you?

I think the priority information is irrelevant in this particular
issue. It's the discrepancy regarding runlevel information.

So I doubt your patch makes a difference, but I'll double check.

Michael

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Re: [systemd-devel] [PATCH] core: make parsing of chkconfig headers conditional

2014-03-24 Thread Lennart Poettering
On Mon, 24.03.14 23:59, Michael Biebl (mbi...@gmail.com) wrote:

 
 2014-03-24 19:58 GMT+01:00 Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net:
  On Mon, 24.03.14 19:21, Lennart Poettering (lenn...@poettering.net) wrote:
 
   See the bug report I posted earlier.
   The discrepancy between the chkconfig head and the LSB header (the
   latter being the correct one) caused a dependency loop and ultimately
   dbus.socket to be dropped.
 
  So this is about the priority number and nothing else?
 
  If so, then I am happy to take a patch that drops taking the chkconfig
  priority number into account entirely, while leaving the rest of
  chkconfig parsing in there, unconditionally. That should fix the
  immediate bug you are encountering, right?
 
  I have commited such a change now. Can you verify if this improves
  things for you?
 
 I think the priority information is irrelevant in this particular
 issue. It's the discrepancy regarding runlevel information.
 
 So I doubt your patch makes a difference, but I'll double check.

I am tempted to also drop the runlevel parsing from the LSB and
chkconfig headers. After all they are mostly irrelevant since what is
linked in /etc/rc?.d/ is what matters, and not the stuff in the init
script themselves.

Let me now if this would make things work then for you. If so, I'll drop
this too then.

Lennart

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